Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence - November 5, 2013
OTTAWA, Tuesday, November 5, 2013
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:32 a.m., pursuant to rule 12-13 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Jodi Turner, Clerk of the Committee: As clerk of your committee, it's my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I'm ready to receive a motion to that effect. Are there any nominations?
Senator L. Smith: I would like to nominate Senator Joseph Day to the position of chair.
Ms. Turner: Are there any other nominations?
It is moved by the Honourable Senator Smith that the Honourable Senator Day do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Turner: I declare the motion carried and invite the Honourable Senator Day to take the chair.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Thank you, colleagues. For most of you, it's welcome back. For those who are new, welcome, and we look forward to working together for the betterment of Finance within the Senate. We have lots of work to keep us going that we'll talk about a little bit later on.
You all have the agenda in front of you? The next item is the election of deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I nominate Senator Larry Smith.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. The name of Senator Smith has been placed in nomination for the position of deputy chair. Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, I declare Senator Smith elected as deputy chair of this committee. Congratulations.
The next item is No. 3, Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, sometimes referred to as ``steering.'' The motion reads:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; . . . .
And the usual consultation has taken place. Could I have a motion in that regard?
It is moved by Senator Chaput. Thank you.
Senator L. Smith: I nominate Senator JoAnne Buth.
The Chair: Senator Buth is the third member of our steering committee, moved by Senator Smith.
The motion includes the fact ``that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.'' I would point out that that's the same steering committee we've had previously, and we've worked well together. I look forward to continuing to work with the other members of the committee.
Item No. 4 is a motion to publish the committee's proceedings.
Senator Callbeck is moving that the committee publish its proceedings. I take it that if there are no objections, the motion would carry. Seeing no objections, then, that motion carries.
Item No. 5 is authorization to hold meetings. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Buth:
That, pursuant to rule 12-17, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
That's our usual practice.
Motion carried.
Next is the financial report. I will put this financial report in play here by asking Senator Doyle to move this motion, and then could you explain the financial report, Jodi.
Ms. Turner: You have the draft financial report in front of you.
The Chair: It's a short one.
Ms. Turner: It's now called a 12-26(2) report. In the past it was a rule 104 report. It lists the expenditures for this past session, so it's split.
The first page is our legislative expenses, so anything having to do with Main Estimates, estimates, bills that we look at. All we're reporting here is witness expenses, which are actually paid for through the Committees Directorate budget that's managed by Principal Clerk Heather Lank, but when we report, we report individually as committees what witness expenses were incurred.
It's broken down by fiscal year. On the second page are our expenditures with respect to the special study on the Canada-U.S.A. Price Gap.
Again, if we've asked for a budget, we have to list that activity. In 2011-12, we requested a budget for a trip to Toronto, Niagara Falls and Buffalo. We didn't take the trip, so it's reported as zero.
For 2011-12, you see ``Witness expenses'' of $6,656.62. That's paid through the Committee's Directorate budget but reported to our committee, and that also includes any cost for video conferences that we would see in committee. There's a charge.
In 2012-13, under ``General expenses,'' there's $2,080. That was to pay for Garey Ris, who was a consultant hired to help edit the report. That was the only cost we incurred through the committee's budget. Again, we included the trip to Toronto, Niagara Falls and Buffalo, but the committee never took the trip, so it reports as zero.
You see ``Witness expenses'' again for $3,055.20.
The report was tabled in February 2013, so we didn't have any expenses at all for 2013-2014.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Mr. Chair, I would like a clarification. Under the first point, 2011-12-13, I see a total of $13,733; that is $3,000 more, plus $3,000. I do not think that adds up to $13,000, so how did you come up with that figure of $13,000? What are you adding up, exactly?
The Chair: Three thousand and 3,000.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: That is a peculiar calculation, to my eyes.
The Chair: The 13,000 total includes all three?
Ms. Turner: All three.
The Chair: The three, from the top.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: The three?
The Chair: Yes, 7, 7, 3 and 3.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Why is that over three years?
[English]
Ms. Turner: This session went from June 2011 until October 2013, but the fiscal year is 2013-14.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Yes, but when we study the budget, we do not study it over three years. Does it depend on the length of sessions?
Ms. Turner: Yes.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: I understand that the other is a budget for a topic which was studied over more than one year.
Ms. Turner: Yes.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: This one is more complicated to understand; it is only for the usual budget examination analysis, is it not?
Ms. Turner: Yes.
Senator Chaput: Is this a new way of reporting things or has it always been done this way?
Ms. Turner: I think the format is slightly different, but it will be the same for all of the committees.
The Chair: If I understand correctly, the figure down here, 13,733, is the total for all three years.
Ms. Turner: Yes.
The Chair: But these three years are in the same session, are they not?
Ms. Turner: Yes. Yes, we are still talking about 41-1.
[English]
The Chair: Any other questions with respect to this first report?
Senator Callbeck: The price gap study, the figures. We started back in October 2011, and when did we complete it?
Ms. Turner: The report was tabled February 2013.
Senator Callbeck: All right.
The Chair: The total cost to the Senate is $11,791.82, plus the salaries of the senators for that report, which was an excellent report. We're still getting good coverage from it. That's good for you to remember.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Just out of curiosity, the general expenses totalling $2 080 is the only item where there are general expenses; what does this include? In the examination of expenses in point 2, the Canada-USA study, in 2012 and 2013, there are general expenses of $2,080. It is always zero everywhere, and so I was wondering what these particular expenses were. Is that for research contracts?
Ms. Turner: It was to pay a writer, Gary Rees. He was involved in preparing the report; he worked with the Library of Parliament analysts on the drafting of the report.
Senator Bellemare: So, these are contracts.
Ms. Turner: Yes.
Senator Bellemare: Thank you.
The Chair: Are there any other questions?
[English]
If not, I don't see any objection, so I take it that that financial report is adopted as circulated, and that will be filed in the chamber in due course.
We're now moving to Item No. 7, research staff. Would someone like to move that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee, that the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of certain individuals, et cetera? Senator Smith? Thank you.
Now, colleagues, I am very pleased there has been consultation with the Library of Parliament. Sylvain Fleury will be back with us, although he's not here today. We have said goodbye to Édison Roy-César. Now that we've trained him, we've sent him off to the House of Commons so he can teach them all of our good habits.
We are very pleased to welcome Raphaëlle Deraspe. Come on up and grab yourself a seat. We're very pleased to have you with us and look forward to working with you. Anything you see us doing that you think we can do better, we'd expect you to let us know.
Jodi Turner, our clerk, is back with us, and we're very pleased about that. In fact, we insisted upon it.
Are there any other questions on that item of research staff, colleagues?
Seeing none, I will move on to Item No. 8, authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Now, this is getting more serious in a finance committee. Let's find out what that's about.
Senator Gerstein will move:
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and clerk of the committee.
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Could you talk to us about this a little bit, Jodi? Typically we work as a steering committee, and I can't imagine any one of us committing funds without having had some consultation.
Ms. Turner: No.
The first paragraph of the motion addresses the authority to commit funds or the initiation of expenditures. We're always working within the Senate Administrative Rules with any policies adopted by Internal Economy and within the parameters of the budget.
So this is for any financial commitments. If the committee was to come up with a budget, the steering committee would meet and go through the amounts that would be requested. We would go through the normal procedure for that.
As a consequence of receiving a budget from the Senate, if we hired a consultant, for example, the consultant would be asked to provide an invoice of work that was completed.
Myself, as sort of supervisor, you're working with that person. I would verify that the work was done and the invoice would be signed by the deputy chair and the chair together. That's one example.
If we were travelling, that's another. In terms of booking travel arrangements, it's all done through the procurement office, a lot of the booking of hotels and things like that. Paying for hotel rooms is something I would do with my Senate credit cards, but it's all done within, again, the rubric the Senate Administrative Rules. Is that clear?
Senator Gerstein: So moved.
The Chair: Thank you, Senator Gerstein.
Now that we understand, authority ``conferred individually'' jumps out at you, but that is all within the parameters of the collectively agreed-upon and the Senate agreed-upon budget.
Ms. Turner: Exactly, yes.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Is this new or was it there last year?
Ms. Turner: It was there last year.
Senator Chaput: So it was already there. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Seeing no other questions, I'll take it that that motion is carried.
We'll now go on to Item No. 9, travel. It is moved by Senator Buth. It states that the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure — again, the steering committee — as required, one or more members of the committee and/or staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
That hasn't happened in the last few years, but the authority is there if we need to do something in a hurry, I guess.
Seeing no objection, Senator Chaput will now move Item No. 10 for us. I wanted to make sure for the record that we had shown that we had adopted the previous one.
Item 10 is the designation of members travelling on committee business. Senator Chaput moves the motion, and it's quite long, but basically talks about official business of the committee. We, of course, can't travel without having a budget and having it approved by the Senate as a whole.
Are there any other questions on Item 10, designation of members travelling on committee business?
Senator Buth: Point number 2 reads: ``consider any member of the committee to be on `official business.''' Is that within our rules, the term ``official business''?
Ms. Turner: The term ``official business'' is in the rules.
Senator Buth: We have many terms of business.
The Chair: So we're learning.
Senator Buth: Thank you.
The Chair: That's official business from your official residence.
[Translation]
Senator Bellemare: Concerning the travel expenses budget, were these expenses already included in our budget, or is this paid as we go along, as expenditures come up? We do not have a budget for the committee as such?
The Chair: We do not have a budget for special studies. Not yet. The study we did is finished.
Senator Bellemare: When we do a special study, the credits are not allocated beforehand, but rather afterwards? We incur our expenses, and then. . .
Senator Hervieux-Payette: No, no, we are presenting a project.
The Chair: A project with a budget.
Senator Bellemare: With a budget, yes.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: We approve it here, but it has to be approved on the other side.
Senator Bellemare: There as well.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: We do not do anything extravagant here.
Senator Chaput: The draft budget is always submitted to the committee to be discussed before it —
The Chair: Yes, of course. It is discussed here, adopted here, and afterwards we have a meeting with the internal subcommittee and it is discussed in the Senate afterwards.
Senator Bellemare: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Item No. 10 is adopted.
Item No. 11 is travelling and living expenses of witnesses. Jodi, could you explain? Witnesses don't come out of our normal budget that we have just discussed.
Ms. Turner: The witnesses come out of the central committee budget, which is managed by the Principal Clerk, Heather Lank. She pays all the witness expenses and, as I said, they're reported back against individual committees. Video conferences are also included in that budget. If we hear a witness by video conference, we incur the cost against us but through Heather Lank's budget.
The Chair: Where it indicates in this motion that the ``committee may reimburse,'' that's reimbursed according to the guidelines.
Ms. Turner: Yes.
The Chair: But the money comes out of another budget that we don't have any control over.
Ms. Turner: Yes.
Senator Callbeck: It comes out of another budget, but then did you say it's directed back to us?
Ms. Turner: Yes, it's assigned. You'll see in this report, anywhere it says ``Witness expenses,'' that's what we have incurred as witness expenses for witnesses appearing before our committee.
The Chair: But when we have a budget for a special study, for example, we take it to the subcommittee of Internal Economy and we don't include witness expenses in that.
Senator Callbeck: Okay.
The Chair: That's not in there. Correct?
Ms. Turner: Yes.
The Chair: That item was moved by Senator Chaput.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: I have a question.
[English]
The Chair: I'll get you to move it first.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Number 11?
The Chair: Number 11.
Senator Chaput: The chairperson decides whether expenses for a second witness will be paid, if there are ``exceptional circumstances.'' I would like to know the definition of ``exceptional circumstances.'' I once chaired a Senate committee and I found it difficult to make that decision. What constitutes an ``exceptional circumstance''?
[English]
Ms. Turner: I'll give you an example. If someone were to appear before a committee and they were disabled, and they needed a caregiver to appear with them, that might be one exception that's fairly reasonable to justify. Another one might be if a minor was appearing before the committee and a parent were to accompany them. That would be another case.
We have times where people appearing from an organization may say, ``I have some knowledge of the subject matter, but I would appreciate having a colleague there with me,'' and that's more difficult sometimes to discern.
Senator Chaput: That's what I meant.
Ms. Turner: In those cases, as the clerk, I would try to see if perhaps the other person could appear by video conference instead of travelling to Ottawa, and that generally works as a compromise, in that situation.
[Translation]
Senator Chaput: Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Seeing no other comments or interventions, I declare No. 11 carried.
Senator Gerstein: I have a question.
The Chair: On No. 11?
Senator Gerstein: Yes, it's really just in general. With regard to witnesses, for example, when we have Canadian Bankers Association, do they pay their way or do we pay as witnesses? I'm interested in the categories. I assume a number of witnesses pay their own way.
Ms. Turner: They do.
Senator Gerstein: Is there any rhyme or reason between the types of people?
Ms. Turner: No.
Senator Gerstein: If requested, is that how it's done? You make it available?
Ms. Turner: If we request a witness, we offer to pay their travel expenses to Ottawa within certain established guidelines. Some witnesses choose to pay their own expenses and we let them.
Senator Gerstein: And that's how it goes?
Ms. Turner: That's how it goes.
Senator Callbeck: Can you explain the guidelines?
The Chair: They would fly on economy class to Ottawa with a refundable fare, so it's not the cheapest economy class. We ask them to try to be reasonable in terms of travel costs, and we'll pay a hotel room if we can justify their coming at a certain time and they're required and they stay. The limit for the hotel room is $200 before taxes, then also the per diem, so whatever would be applicable in terms of meals and incidentals. That's the basic overview. They would have to provide receipts for everything — taxis, boarding passes and airline tickets.
Senator Callbeck: Do we offer that to all witnesses?
Ms. Turner: Yes. For a lot of what Finance does, we don't do a lot of special studies. It's more legislation, so a lot of our witnesses are government people or people within Ottawa. Our witness expenses are not as high as some other committees might be that would bring in more witnesses.
The Chair: It's good for us to understand these items. Thank you for that, Jodi.
Motion No. 11 has been adopted.
Motion No. 12: Senator Doyle, can you put that one into discussion, that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to a direct communications officer assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans — so the subcommittee working with the communications officer — where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purposes of their development and implementation?
I'm very pleased that Francine Pressault has returned to us. She will be our communications officer. Welcome back.
Francine Pressault, Acting Chief, Public Information, Communications Directorate, Senate of Canada: Thank you. I'm happy to be back.
The Chair: Were building up quite a team here. Our steering committee will be working with you, and look forward to doing that.
The second paragraph reads:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the committee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings at its discretion.
We tend to have most of our hearings televised. That, in my experience, has not been disruptive, but if anyone feels it is, let us know. That's an important opportunity for us to reach out.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: In fact, that is how most people know that we work, and so I am entirely favourable to this. Does the public have access to the documents that we have? Our estimates are not always easy to understand if we do not have the documents to follow along; are they available online?
Ms. Turner: Not really, no. I think it is difficult to televise documents.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: No, what I mean is that some people watch CPAC, and they also have computers; can they access these figures online? Are they available? If they listen to us and cannot have access to the chapters on Indian Affairs or Foreign Affairs or various other departments, that is a bit bizarre. I just want to make sure that we can coordinate things to make this available, that the figures be published, that they be available to these people.
[English]
The Chair: Let's ask Raphaëlle if she can help us with that.
[Translation]
Raphaëlle Deraspe, Analyst, Library of Parliament: Everything is published on the Treasury Board site — the estimates, and the supplementary estimates as well.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Could we ask the chair to announce, at the beginning of each hearing, that documents may be accessed there?
The Chair: Where and how to find them.
Senator Hervieux-Payette: Yes, because it is not easy for an ordinary citizen to find that information. Most of the time, people know which departments are being examined, and so people could follow along perfectly, page by page, with us.
[English]
The Chair: I think that's a very good idea.
Francine, could you work with Raphaëlle and Jodi?
Ms. Turner: Sorry, I will just interject here. We have something called value-added viewing. When we're broadcasting a meeting on the TV, there are things that scroll across the screen. I put in the link to the supplementary estimates, or the Main Estimates, or the bill so that someone watching can see the link and put it into their computer and find the document. That does help.
The Chair: You look after that, do you?
Ms. Turner: I do, yes.
The Chair: I didn't know that. We're not always watching it on television; I guess that's the reason we don't see it.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: No, but sometimes we can see ourselves at two in the morning.
[English]
The Chair: Anything further on communications? That's a very good suggestion; we'll make sure that's done. That motion is carried and we will try to look after that suggested improvement.
Item No. 13 is time slots for regular meetings.
Ms. Turner: The same time slots you've had in the past: Tuesdays from 9:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.; and Wednesdays from 6:45 p.m. to 8:45 p.m.
The Chair: Nothing has changed there. Those banking guys make us meet quite late on a Wednesday night.
Next is ``Other Business.'' The two things I wanted to mention are the pre-study and Supplementary Estimates (B), both of which have to be done before we break for Christmas. The pre-study motion — that's on the budget implementation bill — we were hoping would have been filed yesterday. That didn't get done, but it will be filed today authorizing pre-study. There has been consultation with both caucuses and approval to proceed, recognizing that there is a lot of work. Bill C-4 is a 305-page bill. You should all try to get a copy and start looking at it.
The pre-study will authorize us to begin tomorrow. That will be our proposal. If we could start doing the pre-study like we have in the past, we propose going through it clause by clause so we understand what's in there, but it will, I think, be up to steering to talk to the other committees. Some other committees are authorized to do certain portions of this bill, if they wish to. We are authorized to study the entire bill. Other committees will be authorized to look at portions of the bill that are pertinent to their work. We will then have the chance to see their report and perhaps hear from their chair and deputy chair, as we've done in the past, to understand, and we won't then have to go into that portion in as much detail as we might otherwise do.
Senator Chaput: I'm looking for a copy of Bill C-4. Will the clerk get copies for us and send them to our office? Could you do that?
Ms. Turner: Yes.
The Chair: It's quite thick and it's been hard to find them. The printing directorate, whatever they're called, Publications, are trying to cut back on paper, but most of us are paper oriented.
Senator Chaput: Well, you can't look at 400 pages on an iPad.
The Chair: I can't.
Senator Buth: That's why, in the past, we've received a briefing book, and I'm wondering if we will also be receiving that.
Ms. Turner: You will. I checked yesterday; they weren't ready yet, but I'll keep checking with Finance and we'll send them as soon as they're ready.
Senator Buth: Thank you.
The Chair: As soon as we can.
Senator Callbeck: You mentioned about other committees that may study part of this bill. How is that going to work at the end? Do they come and present their findings to us?
The Chair: They're not required to — this is a peer-to-peer situation — but they have in the past, and that worked well. My understanding — and Senator Smith or Senator Buth can help me on this because this is a government motion — is that the motion will say that other committees ``may.'' Finance is authorized to study the entire bill; other committees may study portions that are pertinent to their work and report to the Senate on their work. We, as Finance, can take into consideration those reports in preparing our final report.
Senator Buth and Senator Smith, does that basically cover what —
Senator Buth: I haven't seen the draft.
The Chair: I haven't seen the final; I've just heard the discussion. Hopefully, that will be out today.
I have indicated here that Supplementary Estimates (B) should be coming down and be filed in the Senate around November 7. My proposal to steering — and I'll propose it to you — is that we get started on the budget implementation as quickly as we can. The calendar that I've seen would have us rising fairly early, about halfway through December, around December 13 or 14, I suppose, to pushing up close to the twenty-fifth, which might cut back on the time we have available for study before we have to report. So we should get on with it as quickly as we can, with a break week next week.
Senator Buth: Yes, four weeks after we come back we have to —
The Chair: We've got a lot to do in a short period of time, but I'm sure we're up to it.
Senator L. Smith: Chair, with the limited time frame, just for our group, we should all be prepared to think of Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, just so we're all on the same wavelength and we can get our mind set.
The Chair: Like we have done in the past, I think probably it's more convenient if we could find meeting rooms over in the Centre Block. Do you think you would be able to do that?
Ms. Turner: We always try, yes.
The Chair: It makes it easier, if we go from, say, 2:00 to 4:00 for those three days. If someone has something to do in the Senate chamber, then you can just run upstairs. It would make it a lot easier if we could have that room.
[Translation]
Senator Hervieux-Payette: There will not be confusion with the other committees we sit on?
The Chair: No. The other committees cannot sit while the Senate sits, but we will have permission to do so.
[English]
Senator Chaput: So you would be sitting while the Senate is sitting.
The Chair: Yes.
Senator Chaput: I don't like that.
The Chair: That's why it's nice to be close so that if we have a statement to make, or if we want to follow some debate, we can do that without interrupting the Finance Committee meeting.
Does anyone else have other business under Item No. 14? I'm going to propose that the steering committee meet immediately following this meeting and we'll talk more about a specific meeting schedule.
(The committee adjourned.)