Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Issue No. 7 - Evidence - Meeting of May 11, 2016
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 11, 2016
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:26 p.m. to study foreign relations and international trade generally (topic: recent developments in the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela).
Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade has been authorized to examine such issues as may arise from time to time relating to foreign relations and international trade generally. Under this mandate, the committee can receive testimony on various matters of interest.
The meeting today is an opportunity for committee members to receive an update on the situation in Venezuela and to learn more on recent developments in this country.
To refresh the memories of senators and anyone who may be listening to our hearings today, from time to time we receive situation updates on the issues in Venezuela and how the situation may impact Canada and its foreign policy, as well as the issue of human rights for the people of Venezuela.
I should tell you that we're working in three languages today. If you listen to the English channel, it will come out in English. If you listen to the French channel, it will come out in French. If there is any problem, please signal.
We had heard from witnesses before the elections, and now with a new Parliament in Venezuela, I'm pleased to have before us from the National Assembly of Venezuela, Mr. Luis Florido, President of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs; Mr. Williams Dávila and Mr. Luis Emilio Rondón Hernández, who are both members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs; and Mr. Freddy Guevara, President of the Standing Committee on Oversight of Government Operations and Public Accounts.
The biographies have been circulated to members. Given that we were a little late getting assembled today, I'm going to turn immediately to opening statements. I have asked our witnesses to leave some time so we can ask questions.
I trust that the interpretation is working. I'm going to turn the floor over to Mr. Luis Florido. Welcome to the committee.
[Editor's Note: Some evidence was presented through a Spanish interpreter.]
[Interpretation]
Luis Florido, President, Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, National Assembly of Venezuela, as an individual: Thank you very much, senator. I thank you for inviting us to the democratic Parliament of Canada. We are part of the Venezuelan Parliament, and last year we had great victory. Our victory was a sign of hope for the Venezuelan people who asked for change. We won two thirds of Parliament through the popular vote, and it was through an asymmetrical election; that is to say, it was like a hockey game. One side was huge, and our team was tiny, just like a small-town team, but despite this we still managed a tremendous victory on December 6. On the December 23, just a few days after this victory, the National Assembly swore in three judges to the Supreme Court. At the time, one was a member who voted for himself.
On December 30, the first trial against the Parliament began, and so four members of the Amazon state were in a state of legal limbo and have been kept out of the Parliament of Venezuela.
There have been sentences issued against the Supreme Court of Venezuela, which is essentially influenced by the President. There have been 17 sentences issued against Parliament, and per month since then.
Before 2015, there had not been a single sentence against the Parliament of Venezuela, and this shows how serious the power problems are in our country. The consequence of this is that the people of Venezuela, who were going through a huge crisis, as you have seen by now, feel very frustrated by what's happening. They've been asking for change, but that desire hasn't been satisfied since December 6.
In Venezuela, we have political prisoners. Not a single democracy can exist with political prisoners. One hundred and sixteen people are imprisoned, and three of them are members who were recently elected.
One of the political prisoners is the leader of the party that Mr. Rondón Hernández represents. He was a presidential candidate in 2016.
Another prisoner is the Mayor of the City of San Cristóbal, in eastern Venezuela.
One of the prisoners is the Mayor of Caracas, the most important mayor in our country.
Another prisoner is the leader of Freddy Guevara's party and my party, Leopoldo López. He has been in isolation for 27 months. When a member of Parliament is in jail for 27 months, it is like being there for 27 years.
This is a huge violation of human rights, and so we have put forward an amnesty law that was recently approved. This law was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court of Venezuela. Part of what we want is to have this amnesty, but this has not been allowed by the Supreme Court.
Venezuelans are also going through a huge humanitarian crisis. This is what is going on: In our country, of every ten food products, you can only find two; of every ten medicines, you can only find one of them.
Recently we went to a hospital in the City of Carora in the State of Lara and we asked, "What do you do when a patient has convulsions?'' They said, "We just stay there with them, hold their hand and just watch them die because there are no drugs. There is no anti-convulsion medication that would stop the person from dying.'' This is what is happening to patients who suffer from hemophilia, HIV, AIDS, diabetes, cancer and illnesses which, normally, would be simple to deal with. In a place like Canada, you just give them medication and you're done, but there is no medicine in Venezuela and people are dying.
This humanitarian crisis exists in a country where there is currently a 400 per cent rate of inflation, and people think that within the next year, the inflation rate will be 2,300 per cent. This is according to the IMF.
Over the past 17 years, we have received $1.5 trillion, so we are talking about an amount of money I can't conceive of. You can't put the number of zeros on the table, it's so much money. And $400 billion of that amount was stolen. Mr. Guevara and his committee are studying this theft.
Venezuela has larger oil reserves than Canada. In fact, we have the largest oil reserves in the world. So how is it that we are such a poor, rich country? Well, it's because the personal accounts of the people who are leading our country are huge. They take their money to bank accounts in Switzerland and Andorra.
This huge institutional crisis that Venezuela is going through is one that affects human rights. It affects humanitarian issues, and as a result of this, parliamentarians felt that we needed a way out. We needed to take a decision.
The Venezuelan Constitution allows for a number of mechanisms that would allow for political change. The first is a recall referendum, and we are trying to make this happen. With 20 per cent of the signatures of our voters, we can hold a recall referendum of the President. However, the election institute, which is in the hands of the President, has slowed down the approval of this referendum. They are using administrative means to slow down this process.
What other mechanisms do we have? There is the possibility of amendments to the Constitution, if we wanted.
In conclusion, Venezuela is a pressure cooker, and there is absolutely no release valve right now. If we don't provide a release valve to our country, unfortunately the pressure cooker will explode. It will destabilize not only Venezuela but also the Caribbean, Central America and the northern part of South America. This is extremely serious.
The government systematically attacks all those who speak out loud about what's going on in Venezuela. Because of this, everyone remains silent because they're afraid of being attacked by the government. That's what the government's strategy is: to attack.
So we ask that you speak out about what's going on in Venezuela and that you find mechanisms to show your solidarity, at least with regard to medication.
Because of the simple fact that members of the National Assembly last week went to the Secretary General of the OAS in Washington, Luis Almagro Lemes, we have been taken to court for doing something against our country when, in fact, we went to the OAS to defend our people and our country. We asked that our democracy be defended in Venezuela, but the response was that we are going to be tried.
But we will continue forward because what our political prisoners are going through is worth the fight. Our citizens don't have food or medication, and it's worth fighting for them. We have to pay the price in order to save the interests of our citizens.
Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. Will any of the other members be speaking or just answering questions? Answering questions. Thank you.
Senator Johnson.
Senator Johnson: Thank you, and welcome to our committee tonight.
I have a question for Mr. Dávila. You're a veteran politician and businessman in Venezuela, sir, and you have unique insight into the socio-economic history of the country. Have the majority of Venezuelans lost confidence in the Chavistas, or do many still support them? Do ordinary men and women on the street recognize how government has mismanaged the country, or do many still blame the outside world for their suffering?
[Interpretation]
Williams Dávila, Member, Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, National Assembly of Venezuela, as an individual: Eighty-five per cent of all surveys that have been held reject President Maduro. Many Chavistas voted on December 6 for the candidates of our round table. This gave rise to the fact that people are fighting because they're unhappy with the socio-economic system. They're unhappy because the current model does not deal with the root causes of what's going on in Venezuela, and as a result, in one simple speech, democracy, freedoms, human rights, they are for all Venezuelans. People showed on December 6, through their vote, that they were unhappy.
Fifteen days ago, this was shown again when we got almost 2 million signatures by people who want the recall referendum. It was to activate a recall referendum. This was through an almost spontaneous process, as opposed to through some sort of dogmatic organization. It was an expression of popular support for the discontent right now.
The government controls the entire production system: the market, transportation and distribution of food in our country. There are about 300 companies that are in the hands of the state, and the state controls the entire distribution chain for food. In areas where there are shortages, it's always in the case where there are state-owned companies. This state ownership of distribution, transportation and the marketing of products is much larger and more powerful than the network of the largest private company of Venezuela or even larger than the biggest companies in Latin America.
That's why we say in our speeches that it's almost like an economic war. They're blaming the opposition in all of this, saying that there's a conspiracy, but in fact it's just an ideological situation. This is what's going on in my country.
[English]
Senator Johnson: Thank you.
Mr. Guevara, you head the Permanent Commission of Controllership of the National Assembly, and your mandate includes recovering the assets subtracted from the national treasury by acts of corruption.
In your five months heading the controllership, what you have discovered after 16 years of Chavista rule? I hear that there are lot of party apparatchiks driving around in Hummers, while the majority live with food, electricity and medical shortages and the middle class has all but evaporated. What measures have been taken to recover assets looted from the Venezuelan people, and is most of the money out of the country now?
Freddy Guevara, President, Standing Committee on Oversight of Government Operations and Public Accounts, National Assembly of Venezuela, as an individual: Thank you.
After 16 years of Chavez's regime, we found a big saqueo; it's a Spanish word. The calculations that have been made by some experts reached to $300 billion that have been taken out of the treasury of our people. Right now, in my commission, I have 72 open files, open investigations, that reach up to $43 billion — in just 72 files.
The biggest ones refer to two big ways that the government has used to take money from the people. First of all is our national oil industry, PDVSA. I have, in my commission, proof — contracts and signatures — of bribes, commissions, overpricing and things like that, that reach $7 billion, and that's only the cases that I have investigated with the help of the international community, not with the files that the government gave to us. For you, it must be crazy to think about that, but when our commission asks for papers and documentation for contracts relating to state enterprises, they don't answer anything. When we ask the Attorney General or any other power in Venezuela for documentation, they refuse and don't give us the documents.
What we have now is the collaboration of internal government whistleblowers and people from outside that can give us the documents or particulars, and that's the way we have to proceed.
The other way we determined that big corruption scams against the Venezuelan people were made is through the currency control exchange. Just so you know, we have three currency control exchanges, three rates. The first one is 1 dollar per 10 bolivars. The second is 1 dollar per 400 bolivars, and the third one, which is in the black market, but is the one that is used for real, is 1 dollar per 1,100 bolivars.
The thing is this: Who gives the authorization to have a specific rate? It is the government. So what the government does is that its business pals and the people of its party set the official rate at 10 bolivars. They then sell that to the black market, and in only two moves, they can have $1 million. It's simple math. If you have 1,000 bolivars, you have $10,000. You sell that to the black market, and with those bolivars at the official rate, you have $1 million.
Food and medicine are our two big issues right now. There has been a crazy corruption against our people. For example, we found that in the last medicine container that came in, the medicines were bought with a short expiration time. They bought the medicines within the last six months of their international approval just to buy them cheaper, but when the documents say that these are regular supplies. That's the kind of thing that they do. The medicines are in Venezuela, but they can't be used for the people.
Those are a few examples that we have found, and we are trying to create international cooperation to find where these people are hiding the assets. We have found them in the United States, Panama and Switzerland. For now, we don't know if there are any in Canada, but we will need help from you to determine if some corrupt Venezuelans have been storing money here that was taken from the Venezuelan people.
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for being here.
You spoke about the number of political prisoners and the control that the government has on the population and that the people are all afraid of the government. Will there be any consequences given that you are all here today, appearing before a Senate committee in Canada?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Florido: Quite probably there will be.
How shall I put this? We're here knowing full well the risks we assume under a government that is not democratic and does not respect rights, that rejects them, that systematically violates rights, as happened in 2014 when 43 Venezuelans died. They simply wanted to speak out in protest of what was going on, and they died.
It's quite possible that, at any time, we will lose our parliamentary immunity. It is an institution created to protect parliamentarians in every country in the world. This is part of our Constitution. In Article 200, it foresees that the only way for people to lift our immunity is through the chamber. The National Assembly would have to do this, which is the body that grants the immunity.
So we are subjecting ourselves to the people of Venezuela, as we did on December 6, and we can't stop doing what we're doing simply because of the risks we face as parliamentarians. We're here to defend freedom.
[English]
Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for your courage in being here today.
I was listening when you spoke about people dying because there's no medicine. Is this strictly because of the economic crisis in the country? What is the cause of this? Is it strictly economics or are other things at play? If people are dying in a country because they do not have the proper medications, this is a humanitarian crisis.
[Interpretation]
Luis Emilio Rondón Hernández, Member, Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, National Assembly of Venezuela, as an individual: Thank you for inviting us here and welcoming us this afternoon.
It is a multi-causal relationship. What is happening in Venezuela is due to a number of things. A democracy is defined by its autonomy and balance of public powers, but in Venezuela it is authoritarian and militaristic. It doesn't respect human rights, and it is populist. As a result, we have to continue with our crusade.
When it comes to the concrete case of the lack of food and medicine, it's horrible to see the long, endless lineups of people who are looking for something, anything to eat. It's terrible to see people line up forever in pharmacies in the hope of getting the most basic of drugs. We're not talking about complex medication for cancer or AIDS, just something for chronic illness such as high blood pressure or for people who suffer from diabetes. They can't even get Aspirin or antibiotics, very simple medication.
The economic model has collapsed because Venezuela tried to set up a communist-style economic model in terms of how the state functioned. The state decided to assign money to certain sectors, and this created huge debts. Canada withdrew its Air Canada flights to Venezuela because Venezuela wouldn't pay for the tickets that were sold. They didn't give them the money, so the company can't fly there. They can't bring passengers there for free.
The government was saying that the private sector was working at a loss, but no one is willing to work at a loss. The pharmaceutical sector in Venezuela, the large labs, did not get the funding they needed.
Venezuela, in 15 years, provided more than $90 million in support to Cuba and to a number of different countries, including Bolivia, Ecuador and Argentina. There were huge investments to pay for bonds, which later became junk bonds. But when the price of oil dropped, obviously Venezuela is the only oil-producing country that is going through this current crisis because it didn't set aside provisions for the time when prices were high. It didn't save a single penny when prices were high.
Last week, the Venezuelan Minister of Defence received 20 high-tech Soviet aircraft for war, but the only war that the government is dealing with is an economic war. Really, what they need to be doing is fighting poverty. People don't understand how it is that we have the money to buy 20 aircraft or Chinese satellites, but we don't have Aspirin in our pharmacies. We don't have cleaning products. There is no soap, deodorant or toothpaste.
Venezuela has gone from being one of the most prosperous countries to a poverty-stricken country. We are a begging country. Our position is very similar to poorly developed countries.
In the past when you would go overseas, people would say, "Would you get me a toque or a little scarf from Canada, or a little flag?'' Now they say, "Please, will you bring me some Aspirin? Can you buy me some deodorant? Just buy me something, stuff that doesn't exist in Venezuela anymore.''
Salaries don't cover anything anymore. We four members of Parliament, we don't make $200 a month. That's our income, quite honestly, and I'm not ashamed to say that here. Definitely we don't need your pity, but that's simply the reality. We're in extreme poverty in Venezuela now because of the way things were mismanaged.
Our Constitution has 350 articles, drawn by the Chavez government, and not a single article defines Venezuela as a socialist country. President Chavez, in 2007, through a constitutional reform, tried to do it. He said Venezuela would be a socialist country, but the people voted against it. That was his first electoral failure.
We said that we wanted change. We were proposing change, and we believe this is why we won the election.
We only have four conditions attached to this change. First of all, it has to be peaceful change. We really hope there will be no repression or bloodletting.
Secondly, it has to be a constitutional change. It has to follow the Constitution to the letter.
Thirdly, it must be democratic and electoral change. The people must speak their mind at the polls on the change that we're putting forward. Either they're going to vote for it or against it. The people will decide.
Finally, it needs to be openly participatory, and we must respect human rights.
Like my colleague Mr. Florido said at the beginning, our motto is reconciliation for the country, and we put forward amnesty. The amnesty has been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. The members who went to the OAS have been told that they'll be considered to have betrayed their country when they get back to Venezuela.
The Government of Venezuela wants to deny a clear reality that our people are aware of. We profoundly respect your democratic power. You're a public body of Canada; you're the Senate. We are simply here to inform you of what's going on, because we know that your responsibility will hopefully promote cooperation with us in order that our sad chapter in Venezuela will end and that it will give way to peace, development and prosperity for the future.
Thank you.
[English]
Senator Poirier: Thank you, gentlemen, for being here. I have a couple of questions.
What is the first step or what needs to happen to start having social calm in Venezuela? For things to calm down, for things to get better, what is the next thing that has to happen right now? Where do you need to go?
The Chair: I think, Senator Poirier, you're saying there is social unrest and how do we get back to the calm, to the normal?
Senator Poirier: To the normal Venezuela of years ago. What do we need to do to start to go back to the calm?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Dávila: Thank you for your question. The world changes. And the world is interconnected. Democracy today is a fundamental value. This social network in Venezuela, the ability for people to speak in a different manner, will exist in a democracy, but the National Electoral Council of Venezuela and the central government need to allow voters, that is to say citizens, to have what they need, under the Constitution, to activate the recall referendum. This is a universal principle of human rights.
Venezuela withdrew from the court of the Americas for human rights. However, we believe we need to promote human rights. If we want to find a democratic outlet to the difficult situation in Venezuela, we need to allow people to speak out.
I don't know why they are trying to reduce their ability to speak. The minute you stop people from speaking out, who thinks that's the best way to govern? That's not right. We believe that right now through the recall referendum you must necessarily facilitate and allow people to speak. You need to verify people's signatures. Then you activate the recall referendum and state that there is to be no repression, no more political prisoners, that you don't prosecute members of the National Assembly, and then you allow the people to speak out.
In every survey, 85 per cent of respondents said they would vote for any democratic mechanism. It's very important to understand that, and the government knows this.
[English]
Senator Poirier: Thank you.
This social unrest has been going on since 2014. Can you explain to us how that has affected the relationship with other countries in the region, such as Brazil, Colombia and Argentina? And with the United States recently opening up to Cuba, how has that affected your relationship with Cuba and the United States?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Florido: The U.S. openness to Cuba, I think, is good news for the countries of Latin America. It was time for a change to a policy that did not work because, quite clearly, Cuba is still there. Every day it has bigger and bigger problems, and I think that all democrats in the world have thoughts for Cuba and the people of Cuba. But at the same time, the people of Cuba need their rights back.
I think Obama's visit to Cuba is important as a result, but what's the effect on Venezuela? Well, Cuba has been a model for Nicolás Maduro to follow as President of the republic, and also it's the model that President Chavez followed. But now Cuba is changing its policies, and the Cuban model is suddenly turning towards the U.S. So there may be enough investment in the island to change the economy.
All of this will have an effect within Venezuela because Nicolás Maduro cannot count on the same type of support from the Government of Cuba as was the case before.
Now we hope that this will improve the path toward political change that we're leading Venezuelans on.
[English]
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you for being here and giving us some idea of what's happening in Venezuela. It's a very complicated situation, one that is a bit hard for outsiders to understand.
How united is the opposition? And what role is the military playing? It has admitted that it committed some excesses during the weeks of political unrest that left 40 people dead, and yet they're claiming that they're investigating 97 officers who were responsible, less than 1 per cent of the officers who were involved in the torture of people in denial of their human rights.
How much influence does the military have? Are they in a position to block certain reforms in the government?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Hernández: In Venezuela last year, the democratic unity round table presented one single candidate, one single program and one single proposal. That's how we ran in the elections. So we, through this unity, got the election result that you saw. We won two thirds of the seats in the National Assembly.
This morning, we intended to have a demonstration or a march to the election body to request a guarantee that the recall process would take place, but we were drastically attacked this morning, by the Armed Forces through the National Guard, which is a subsection of the military. It's not ordinary police, and unfortunately we were not able to get the number of people we needed for this peaceful march because of what happened, even though in a way we attained our goal, which was to put forward our request to the electoral body.
Despite everything, our unity has strengthened us.
Today, all the political leaders of our parties have shown that this unity is real. It's not just theoretical. We have made a commitment to work together to produce political change and have a government based on national unity, because we believe that we all are needed for the reconstruction of Venezuela, given how fragile our situation is.
In Venezuela, there is a very ironic motto. People say that the military is loyal to the government until it stops being loyal to the government, and so as a result there are coups and counter-coups.
The military action against Chavez in 2002 was launched by his Minister of Defence, the minister of the Armed Forces. People said it was the opposition, but no, this was an internal effort from within the Armed Forces.
Today we have asked at the highest level that there be two ties. One is a connection with high-level military people. You need a military official and general. They don't know much about agriculture. However, currently a high-level military official is, in fact, our Minister of Agriculture. Our minister of hydroelectricity is also a military representative. Well, guess what? The president of social security in Venezuela is also a high-level military official. They know nothing about public finances, but, again, there's another general of the army in the Department of Finance.
There are other types of generals who, unfortunately, have ties to illegal activities such as drug trafficking. This has caused a lot of problems within the Armed Forces because not all military officials are compromised this way. However, we have denounced the ones that are compromised, and we want to shed light on the circumstances. We want people to understand who is responsible for what. We don't want to generalize; however, for those who are responsible for the army and for defence, they should not be involved in politics.
Every day military officials are more and more involved in politics in Venezuela, and this is authorized by the government. And they are becoming active members of political organizations. For example, the Minister of Defence said the amnesty law that we presented at the National Assembly was subversive. But it is different if a politician says it, compared to a high-level member of the defence, someone who has tanks and is armed to fight you. So it creates a huge imbalance in the discussion.
We believe that an important sector of the Armed Forces should pay attention and respect their constitutional role. They shouldn't get involved in politics because politics should be dealt with through civilian means.
The military is not there to be involved in politics, and this is one of the unfortunate consequences of the Maduro government. It is so weak and fragile. They have tried to include members of the Armed Forces in political positions in order to give the impression that they are strong.
[English]
Senator Ataullahjan: Just listening to you and listening to what's happening, has the National Assembly passed any legislation in the recent months?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Hernández: Yes. The National Assembly has not stopped producing legislation. All legislation, which the National Assembly has promulgated, has been declared unconstitutional. For example, we put forward a central bank law to avoid inflation, which as you know full well is a huge problem for everyone. Here we are today with an inflation rate of 400 per cent. But it wasn't a new law; we simply removed the final modifications to the previous act and we tried to vote in the law that existed five years ago, with the standards from that time.
At the time, it worked fine. The central bank worked fine for six years until its law was amended by President Maduro. But the Supreme Court declared that this new law we put forward was unconstitutional, even though it was a law that existed before.
The only law that was not declared unconstitutional is the law of benefits for pensioners and people who are retired. They didn't declare it unconstitutional, but they said we had to guarantee that it would be economically viable, otherwise it wouldn't apply. But it's kind of the same thing. It's just sort of said differently. So we approved this law.
We put forward a law for public sector housing. If the government gives you the key to a house, it can rent it to you but it will not give it to you. In the past the government could say, "We can give you a house, but if you don't vote for me, I'm going to take it away.''
Similar types of influences have occurred in the past, and we don't think the government should have political control over people's houses and title of ownership. The government has tried to use this in the past. We want people to understand that their housing is their own private ownership and does not belong to the government. That's why we put forward legislation on private homeownership, but it was declared unconstitutional.
We're trying to change the media law because government does not give media concessions. They don't give concessions to radio companies or television companies. Anytime a concession expires, the government tries to use it as a way to bribe these companies. They say to them, "Look, if you don't broadcast my messages, I'm going to take away your concessions.'' As a result, we don't necessarily have a lot of variety.
All of this means you have to pay attention. It's true, we continue to put forward legislation. We're not going to be disappointed because the Supreme Court said they're unconstitutional, because in the end we believe that we need these laws to rebuild the fabric of our country.
[English]
The Chair: We are fast running out of time. In fact, we're over time, but I have three more senators. I'm going to appeal for short questions and short answers, and then everyone can at least get something on the record of concern to them.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: The most important product for the development of your country, I believe, is petroleum. Long before the oil crisis, which began barely two years ago, Venezuela was already in freefall. I remember visiting your country in the 1990s, and there were lots of tourists. You have been hurt by falling oil prices, but you barely have a tourism industry, owing largely to the rise in crime rates, which is nearly exponential. These factors are hurting your country. You do not have a miracle solution and I can understand that you are looking for financial assistance from Canada, the United States and other countries.
In order to convince us to provide assistance, can you tell us what has been done to improve the situation in your country? I forgot to mention earlier the high rate of youth unemployment. Young people are not working and that is a powder keg. In Greece, considering what it has been through, the unemployment rate for people under the age of 30 is 60 per cent to 70 per cent. Is your youth unemployment rate comparable?
I could then suggest a few organizations that help countries such as yours, in particular by providing medicine.
[English]
Mr. Guevara: Thank you.
We are asking for three things. The first is international political pressure in order to get away from the political and constitutional crisis in Venezuela that we have in the Constitution, but it will not occur if it doesn't come with pressure. So we are the ones that can create international pressure in our congress and in the streets, but without international pressure, it can't be done.
Canada is part of the OAS. We are on a journey trying to get the support of the Americans in order to start activating the Inter-American charter in order to put pressure on the government and make them feel that there is a real threat. If they feel there is a real threat, maybe they can release some of the pressure and open a way for the people to express themselves.
We are not asking for the government to give us power. We are only trying to encourage our rights and the people's rights to choose who should be in power. Our Constitution lets the people decide if the President needs to be in power in the mid-term. We are now in the mid-term, and our people have that right. That's the international pressure.
The second thing is humanitarian help. Right now we are not asking for money. We are just asking for medicine. We would like to know if Canada has the resources to bring us humanitarian help in the form of medicine. We are not going to give it to the congress or the parties. We want to give it to the Red Cross or international, multilateral organizations.
The third one would be supporting the anti-corruption fight that we need to do. We would like collaboration from the Canadian state to find out if some corrupt people from the government have any possessions or assets here in Canada and to look for them.
[Interpretation]
Mr. Dávila: I would like to speak to what you mentioned with regard to youth unemployment. For me, the most serious problem in Venezuela right now is the crisis of values and principles, and the whole economic question in a country that has a tremendous amount of natural resources, and what it's done with human rights. I mean, how do we develop our values and principles again? It's through education for people up to 25 years of age. So we need a long- term plan.
Youth today are emigrating from our country in numbers never seen before. The emigration rate is about 15 per cent, but it is the youth unemployment and unemployment of professionals at all levels. The government says it's low, but it's high. Our biggest problem is that we're losing professionals. Doctors, lawyers, everybody are leaving the country.
What we want is to find a way for youth to understand that they don't need to leave Venezuela. In fact, Venezuela can be a country of opportunity. We need to find a way for them to contribute to the reconstruction of our country.
[English]
The Chair: I'm sorry, we're very short of time, and I'm going to have to turn to Senator Ngo.
Senator Ngo: Thank you, gentlemen.
We know that Venezuela is currently going through social unrest and economic hardship. Canadian bilateral trade with Venezuela was less than $1 billion in 2015. I think it's about $740 billion.
In your view, what is the most effective way for Canada to engage Venezuela and to support, at the same time, human rights in the country?
[Interpretation]
Mr. Florido: First of all, Canada can speak out to the world, speak out in defence of the rights of all people who have been deprived of their freedoms, and speaker out for the political prisoners, the imprisoned members of the National Assembly, and people that are facing this humanitarian crisis of food and medicine.
Secondly, Canada needs to speak before the OAS. The Canadian ambassador to the Permanent Council talked about genuine dialogue. This means a lot, because in Venezuela there's dialogue, but it's definitely not real, truthful or genuine. Genuine dialogue gives rise to results that you can measure. I think that the OAS is an important place to put pressure.
Third, an important way is material support, just like Mr. Guevara just said, to provide concrete humanitarian assistance through your NGOs, through the Senate or through the House of Commons.
If Canada provides 10 tonnes of Aspirin for example, 15 tonnes of insulin, 20 tonnes of antibiotics, very concrete assistance, this would open doors in Venezuela, because then they'd see that the parliamentarians who are currently being attacked, we are getting results in the world and that our fight is the fight of the people of Venezuela. They're fighting for their human rights.
[English]
Mr. Guevara: I would like to add only one thing. We, as Venezuelans, would like a full-range investment, but we want it to be done in the right way. There has been news in Venezuela about a Canadian-based company called Gold Reserve. It's a mining company. Do you know it?
Senator Ngo: Yes.
Mr. Guevara: Of course we want international investment, but we need it to be done right. What we don't want is to have international investment that doesn't go in the right way.
Our Constitution says that every contract of national interest needs to be approved in the National Assembly. The government has said that they made an arrangement with some Canadian companies — one of them is Gold Reserve — for $25 billion, right?
Mr. Dávila: Yes.
Mr. Guevara: And that hasn't been passed in the National Assembly. So we're afraid that maybe that is only to help the government get cash in order to add some Aspirin to the crisis and not develop a structural solution to the whole crisis. It's a more complex situation that goes from human rights, rule of law, economic problems and all of that.
Senator Ngo: You didn't mention what Canada should do regarding the human rights in the country.
Mr. Guevara: Mr. Florido referred to the Inter-American charter and pressure from the OAS, which would be a very good thing. Of course, any other position or support that comes from the Senate, from the Parliament of Canada, would help, like saying, "We exhort the Government of Venezuela to release their political prisoners.'' Official public support for human rights always helps.
The Chair: We have definitely run out of time. I want to thank you for coming to the committee. We've had hearings previously on the situation in Venezuela, and therefore it's necessary to keep updated.
We are being televised, so this is certainly bringing your message to Canada and the Canadian people.
We will continue to monitor the situation. Obviously we support democratic principles and the freedom for political leaders and members of Parliament to speak peacefully both in their own countries and also around the world.
I think you know that we have passed motions in the Senate before.
Mr. Guevara: Yes.
The Chair: We continue to follow the Venezuelan situation very closely. The committee will continue to assess our role in the debate, but I think that by virtue of bringing you here and allowing you to present your message is the best way that we can disseminate information to the Canadian people.
We thank you for your appearance today. We underscore the ability for you to speak freely, and we trust that this is respected in your country as it is in ours. So thank you for that.
As we continue to receive an update on the situation in Venezuela and learn about recent events in that country, we will now hear from Global Affairs Canada. We have before us Mr. André Frenette, Director General of the Latin America and Caribbean Bureau; Ms. Sylvia Cesaratto, Director, South America; and Mr. Sean Sunderland, Deputy Director, South America.
The Chair: I presume that you will start, Mr. Frenette, with an opening statement. Hopefully, we will get some questions in. Welcome to the committee.
[Translation]
André Frenette, Director General, Latin American and Caribbean Bureau, Global Affairs Canada: I am pleased to appear before the Committee again with my colleagues. We met a few weeks ago to discuss Argentina. Today, we will be discussing Venezuela. Madam Chair, given the current situation in Venezuela, I believe this is an appropriate time for such a discussion.
Our engagement in Latin America and the Caribbean reflects the key priorities of our new government — fighting climate change, promoting pluralism and improving security in the region. These form a basis to strengthen our relationship with the Americas in the years to come.
The sixth largest economy in South America, Venezuela is a member of the Common Market of the South — Mercosur — and a founding member of the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR).
Despite economic challenges, it remains Canada's fifth largest export market in South America. Two-way merchandise trade was CAN$740 million in 2015. Canada enjoys a significant trade surplus, with total export to Venezuela of CAN$633 million last year. Agricultural products like wheat and seed potatoes make up a significant portion of those exports.
According to the International Energy Agency, Venezuela has the world's largest proven reserves of oil. In addition to petroleum, the country's natural resources include natural gas, gold, iron ore, bauxite, diamonds and other minerals.
A secure and prosperous future for Venezuelans is important not only for Venezuela and its citizens, but for the entire hemisphere, including Canada, given the significant political and economic role Venezuela has played in the wider region in recent years.
Mounting economic and political instability in Venezuela is having an impact not only on the lives of ordinary Venezuelans but also on Canadian interests, particularly as they relate to democracy, human rights and trade and commerce.
What I wish to share with you today is the evolving situation in Venezuela, Canadian interests, and how Canada can support Venezuela.
First and foremost, we strongly believe that Venezuelans of all political stripes must come together to solve their internal economic and political problems. Political polarization helps no one and solves no problems. The government and opposition must work together within the boundaries of the Constitution.
Working with partners in the region, and with the Organization of American States (OAS), Canada stands ready to assist where we can. But that help must be predicated on practical measures to improve people's lives and security.
Venezuela is in the midst of an economic crisis. A shortage of hard currency and a scarcity of basic goods, especially food and medical supplies, have reached alarming levels. The IMF estimates that, in 2015, Venezuela's economy shrank 10 per cent while inflation exceeded 200 per cent, the highest in the world. The IMF is now predicting that inflation this year may reach 700 per cent — a level of hyperinflation. The local currency has lost 98 per cent of its value against the U.S. dollar in the past three years.
The decline in Venezuela's economy is in large part the result of the global drop in crude oil prices, which has deepened and accelerated Venezuela's economic crisis, given that oil accounts for the bulk — about 95 per cent — of Venezuela's export earnings.
However, other factors have also contributed to the decline, including government expropriation of private-sector industries, price controls and ever changing domestic laws and regulations.
The Venezuelan economy is also hamstrung by mounting sovereign debt, which the government has continued to service despite its tight fiscal environment. Most recently, it made a $1.5 billion payment on its bonds in February. However, global financial markets are concerned by the government's ability to continue to meet its debt servicing obligations. As a result, Venezuelan government bonds are being sold at discounted rates on financial markets in anticipation of a possible default later this year.
Fortunately, the Canadian government's exposure is limited, with only a modest amount of debt owed by the Government of Venezuela to Export Development Canada (EDC), which they continue to pay back. Nonetheless, the potential of a Venezuelan debt default is worrying, not just in terms of what it will mean for global creditors, but the effect it will have on Venezuela, its citizens and the region as hard currency becomes scarcer and critical imports more difficult to pay for.
A default would make it difficult for Venezuela to maintain its commitments to Petrocaribe, the energy corporation agreement launched by President Hugo Chavez to supply crude oil to Caribbean nations with preferential terms of payment. This could particularly affect Cuba, Haiti and several small Caribbean island states which are dependent on subsidized Venezuelan oil exports. From a broader trade perspective, it would also have a significant impact on neighbours such as Colombia, Brazil, and Guyana.
On top of this, Venezuela is now coping with the effects of a prolonged drought caused by this year's El Niño weather system. Along with shortages of water and its impact on agriculture, it has left the Guri Hydroelectric Dam — one of the main sources of the country's electrical power — at a critically low level. As a result, the government has been forced to introduce electricity rationing. Blackouts are putting further pressure on the economy and generating frustration among the population.
[English]
Madam Chair, along with the difficult economic situation, the security situation, particularly in the capital of Caracas and other major cities, is alarming. Rates of violent crime are high and rising. Venezuela's homicide rate is reported to be one of the highest in the world. Escalating levels of criminal violence, combined with growing poverty, are undermining the safety and security of citizens.
All of these issues are putting further strain on a polarized political situation. Largely peaceful legislative elections in December 2015 saw a major win for the opposition coalition, giving it control of the National Assembly for the first time in 17 years. Nonetheless, President Nicolás Maduro still controls the executive and exercises control over the judiciary.
Following the election, Minister Dion issued a statement congratulating Venezuelans on exercising their right to vote in a peaceful manner and encouraging dialogue between the opposition and government. Unfortunately, there have been few signs of compromise so far. Precisely at a time when Venezuelans need strong measures to respond to the economic crisis and growing insecurity, neither side can agree on important legislation in the National Assembly. The Supreme Court has consistently overturned National Assembly decisions, including most recently an amnesty bill that would have freed a number of prisoners, many of whom were incarcerated for their role in anti-government protests in 2014.
The Government of Canada is concerned by the economic and security situation, and by the political polarization that is preventing Venezuelans from finding solutions to their problems in a pragmatic manner. We encourage all Venezuelans to channel their differences through legal and constitutional means.
We also encourage the government and the opposition to focus on improving the day-to-day life of ordinary citizens. We strongly believe that compromise among political leaders is essential if the country's social and economic challenges are to be addressed.
We also encourage the government to reach out to the international community, particularly institutions like the Inter-American Development Bank, the World Bank and the IMF to seek advice and support on how to improve their domestic economic situation.
While our bilateral relationship has faced challenges, the past year has seen improved dialogue between our two governments, with regular meetings in Caracas and with Venezuelan embassy officials here in Ottawa. We welcome this dialogue and hope it will continue and grow.
At the same time, we remain concerned with the state of democratic governance in the country. We respect Venezuela's sovereignty and have a genuine interest in working with the government to develop and strengthen our diplomatic relationship. Central to this relationship is a shared commitment to international norms of human rights and democratic governance enshrined in the treaties we both have ratified.
We also believe that the Organization of American States has an important role to play in helping Venezuelans bridge their differences. We believe strongly that OAS member states must adhere to the standards and values enshrined in the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Canada will continue to support constructive initiatives and dialogue on the situation in Venezuela within the OAS.
With respect to trade between our two countries, we encourage the Government of Venezuela to continue to find pragmatic solutions with Canadian companies that have been adversely affected by the nationalization policies of the last decade, including companies like Crystallex and Gold Reserve, both of which saw their mining operations expropriated.
While 2015 was a difficult year for trade and 2016 is expected to be even more challenging, the Venezuelan market continues to hold long-term potential. Canada's reputation as a reliable supplier of key commodities will position us well when the economic situation improves.
In conclusion, Venezuela is a rich country. It has deep and historic connections with all countries of the hemisphere. It has important institutions of learning, eager and hard-working citizenry, and an abundance of natural endowments. What it needs are strong institutions that will allow political differences to be resolved through peaceful and constitutional means.
The Canadian government values its relationship with Venezuela and the ties that have underpinned our bilateral relationship for over 60 years. It is with this in mind that we urge all Venezuelans to come together in a spirit of compromise to resolve their differences. We look forward to working with all parties in Venezuela, along with our partners in the region and the OAS, to move this ahead.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Thank you for adhering to the time. That's very helpful.
Senator Downe will start the questioning.
Senator Downe: I'm wondering what, if anything, the Government of Canada is currently doing to assist the people of Venezuela in this difficult situation they find themselves in.
Mr. Frenette: Madam Chair, as I mentioned in my remarks and as was discussed yesterday, as you may know, the members of the opposition that are here this week had a meeting with Minister Dion yesterday and a very fruitful conversation. The message that was conveyed was the importance of dialogue and compromise in ensuring that the Government of Venezuela and the political actors in Venezuela do the right things from a legislative perspective to address some of the very difficult issues that you heard in the previous presentation.
President Maduro was elected three years ago. He does run the executive. The people of Venezuela spoke very clearly last December and elected the opposition, and now these two entities within the government need to come together and need to work together to compromise.
I heard in the previous presentation about the desire for Canada to speak out at the OAS and to speak out in other means against abuses of human rights. We do this at every opportunity.
If I may, senator, one of the key initiatives that we have at our embassy in Caracas is a human rights award. This is not just about giving awards out. It's about having a dialogue in Venezuela about human rights, about Canada's views on human rights and our values in that regard and recognizing people who make that significant contribution.
There are a number of different ways, senator, that we can assist Venezuela, and we are doing so both bilaterally and through the OAS.
Senator Downe: Thank you.
In your excellent presentation, you highlighted the difficulty the country is in on many levels. My question was really not about dialogue and meetings. Are we doing anything of a practical nature to assist the people of Venezuela? We heard earlier about the shortage of drugs, for example. Is there any government assistance directly to civil society to assist with some of these shortages in Venezuela?
Mr. Frenette: Specifically with respect to the situation that you heard described earlier of food shortages, medicines and so on, that is the case. We've seen in Venezuela significant shortages in that regard.
As you may know, the way Canada and many other countries function with respect to humanitarian assistance is working through recognized and respected NGOs, both domestically and internationally, and these work through appeals that are made through the United Nations' system and the Office for the Coordinator of Humanitarian Affairs. No such appeal has been made so far. There has been no appeal to the international community so far through the United Nations' system for humanitarian assistance.
Senator Downe: There has been no direct appeal to any Canadian government agency or embassy in Venezuela for any assistance?
Mr. Frenette: None with respect to humanitarian assistance, senator.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: My questions are similar to my colleague's. We know that Canada is very generous and that it responds quickly to disasters, earthquakes and the like. In the early 1970s, Venezuela had an earthquake that left thousands dead and nearly wiped out Caracas. Canada certainly helped out. There are forest fires, floods, and train accidents, which are local disasters, but which happen all over the world. Following the Kathmandu earthquake, we sent forces, equipment and money.
You said that NGOs should take action in this case. I was telling Mr. Guevara earlier that there is an international cooperation organization in Quebec, whose role is to collect surplus drugs from manufacturers, distributers and wholesale pharmacies. Right now, these supplies are sent almost exclusively to Africa, but, depending on priorities, this approach could certainly be considered to provide temporary assistance for the critical drug shortages.
Returning to the situation in the country, to what extent would you say that Chavez's past friendly, socialist and communist relationship with Fidel Castro alienated Americans and Canadians? To what extent have past relationships hurt Venezuela as regards access to American or Canadian aid?
Mr. Frenette: I cannot comment on that. It is a historical question; you would have to ask Cubans, Venezuelans and Americans. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on that.
Senator Rivard: Without getting into statistics, in your experience as someone versed in politics and international relations, do you think that the relationship between Fidel Castro and Chavez— People provide assistance when they feel they are liked, well regarded. We are talking about the past but, nonetheless, Chavez, it was over 20 years ago, and Castro still has influence. The Americans have shown openness to Cuba. If they seek closer ties with Venezuela also, that would not hurt.
Mr. Frenette: I really cannot comment on the relationship between Castro and Chavez. We can talk about Canada's position, but I would not know what to say about that relationship in particular.
Senator Rivard: Do you sense any anti-American sentiment among the Venezuelan people, if not to say anti- Canadian? Hating Americans is almost a general pastime. Do you think Venezuelans' opinion of Americans is comparable or worse than elsewhere?
Mr. Frenette: I don't know what Venezuelans think of Americans. We do know that there is a strong polarization in Venezuela right now. There is the opposition, the president, and making headway is very difficult. Venezuelans are suffering because of this, as you heard earlier; it is true.
Some are calling it a humanitarian crisis. It might be premature to use that term, especially from the United Nations' perspective. Let us be clear though that there is a difference between the recent earthquake in Ecuador and the political situation in a country where changes in the political economy are needed. To achieve this, they need a Parliament, a political framework that works, which is not the case at present. This is why efforts must be made to advance this type of dialogue, to reach a compromise between the two sides in order to find very practical economic solutions and give Venezuelans the best future prospects possible.
Senator Rivard: That's very clear. Thank you, Madam Chair.
[English]
Senator Ataullahjan: Thank you for your presentation.
We heard from their parliamentary delegation about politics of confrontation. I don't know how they're going to work out their issues they have, considering all the problems they're having, such as blackouts and hyperinflation. So how can we engage Venezuela? At some point they have to realize there are bigger issues than just confronting each other.
You talk about wanting to urge Venezuelans to come together in a spirit of compromise to resolve their differences. How do we do that?
Sylvia Cesaratto, Director, South America, Global Affairs Canada: Thank you for your question, which is a very valid one.
There are, I think, two ways in which Canada is actively working and trying to contribute to the situation. One is bilaterally through statements such as the one by Minister Dion on the election results and encouraging both sides to come together.
As Mr. Frenette mentioned in his comments, at every opportunity we raise the question of Venezuela. When our minister meets with his counterparts from other countries in the region, we have a dialogue about Venezuela and also try to encourage other countries in the region to do their part.
We work in-country through our embassy and through a fund that we have at the embassy at our disposal to support local NGOs to create the space for dialogue and to uphold democratic institutions and principles. For instance, in the lead-up to the elections we supported a number of NGOs who were active on the ground.
Also, as Mr. Frenette mentioned, the embassy is very involved on the human rights front, working with NGOs that are particularly mindful of defending human rights principles and protecting those who might be victimized by abuses.
The other is multilaterally and through the OAS where we're trying to engage with the institution of the OAS to encourage them to play a mediator or facilitator role in the impasse and also to encourage other member states to support that approach.
Senator Ataullahjan: Central to what I'm hearing is the word "dialogue.'' We just heard about the role the army is playing, about severe human right abuses, torture and the killing of 40 or 41 demonstrators. Do these human right abuses ever come up in the dialogue that you are having with Venezuela?
Ms. Cesaratto: Yes, absolutely. Of course, when our ambassador goes in to meet with government officials, those issues are raised. When we meet with the Venezuelan ambassador here in Ottawa, those issues are raised. I myself have raised them with the ambassador when they were seeking Canada's support for their candidate at the Human Rights Council. We had to clearly indicate that we could not because we didn't share their perspective on protecting human rights.
We're doing more than just trying to create a space for dialogue. We're being very clear with our messaging on the expectations that we have as signatories to instruments that uphold democratic principles and respect for human rights. Both countries are signatories
Senator Johnson: We talked a lot about how we have to work on the human rights side. We're doing that and you spelled that out very clearly in your comments and in your answers today. We just talked with allies at the OAS about applying more pressure to respect human rights and democratic standards.
What about prospects for working more closely with the Macri government of Argentina? Would you consider that, have we done that or are we?
Mr. Frenette: That question is timely, given what this committee is considering.
Yes. What I would suggest on that, it is not just with the Macri government but with all of the governments in the region, and that forum is the Organization of American States. There was a meeting last week, as the delegation before us mentioned, where our ambassador spoke. Many other delegations, including Argentina, spoke about the need for dialogue and a need for compromise, but also the need for respect for human rights.
So absolutely there is much scope here for discussion with other like-minded countries in the region.
Senator Johnson: Can you comment on the relationship between the governments or the leaders, for example, Macri and the President in Venezuela? Do they have relationships at all with the government leader in Venezuela?
Mr. Frenette: I can't speak specifically about Maduro and Macri, but I'll just repeat what I said to this committee last time on the new Macri government. There's certainly a significant change of tone coming out of Argentina, and I think that can only benefit the rest of the region.
Senator Oh: You mentioned earlier enormous amount of debt owed by the Government of Venezuela to the EDC. Do you know how much our exposure is in relation to our taxpayers? Did they make their payment last month on time?
Sean Sunderland, Deputy Director, South America, Global Affairs Canada: Thanks for the question, senator.
The Government of Venezuela has remained current in its sovereign debt obligations to Canada, to the Export Development Corporation. I'm not sure that we can publicly disclose the amount. I would need to check with our colleagues in the EDC before doing so. It's not a large amount.
However, there are private sector arrears that continue. There are Canadian companies that have not been paid by private sector entities in Venezuela that the EDC has to cover as a result, but not government-to-government debt.
Senator Oh: Would you be able to find out that amount and give it to us in writing?
Mr. Sunderland: I would have to speak to my colleagues at Export Development Canada and see if they are prepared to do so. If so, absolutely.
Senator Oh: Thank you.
Senator Ngo: I have two questions. I would like to raise the issue of the imprisonment of Leopoldo López.
First, we know that he has been sentenced for two or three years. What has Canada done so far regarding this case? What kind of approach do we have to try to connect or engage with the Venezuelan government?
Second, we know that Canada does not officially provide development assistance to Venezuela. Now we know the situation and the appeal by the panel we just heard. Can we do something about this case unofficially or officially?
Mr. Frenette: On the first question, we did speak out against that situation in Venezuela. The position is that all political prisoners, those who have not committed crimes or have not been convicted of criminal offences, should be released. Our ambassador in Caracas has been very vocal, and I think the Canadian position on that is quite clear.
On the second question, as I've mentioned earlier to your colleagues, no appeals have been made in support of humanitarian assistance.
This is not an earthquake; this is not a tsunami. It's not a natural disaster. The situation that is currently occurring in Venezuela could be resolved if all sides come together, that is, if all sides were to do the right things, from a policy perspective, to make the lives of Venezuelans better from an economic perspective and otherwise. That requires dialogue and, more importantly, compromise on all parts.
Senator Ngo: We had the meeting of the OAS on May 5. Did Canada raise the issue of Leopoldo López?
Mr. Frenette: I don't think in our ambassador's remarks at the OAS last week the issue of political prisoners or Mr. López specifically was raised.
Senator Ngo: Thank you.
The Chair: Certainly the tradition in the OAS was led often by Cuba. We know the background there, namely that one didn't interfere in another country's internal affairs. But it always troubled me — and this is throughout many governments — that Canada has been so vocal on human rights and has said that there is a responsibility to protect citizens and that we have international responsibilities.
Is there going to be a change now? President Macri certainly broke that mould and was very confrontational with Venezuela. Will Canada change its position now and become more vocal on the understanding that human rights are issues for all of us to take into account and that if we belong to the OAS, we have a strong responsibility to find out what's going on in the country?
You're correctly pointing out that UN agencies don't enter into humanitarian aid until the country designates it. We've heard from many countries where there is a drought. Take Namibia as an example. They have been able to contain it from within. They understand that it is affecting their population and they're doing something about it. The UN is in contact with them constantly. They are assured that they will have enough supplies and that they're reaching out to the far corners of the country.
What is the Venezuelan government — not Parliament — doing to ensure that there is no malnutrition and that children are not without drugs?
There's an internal responsibility regarding human rights internally. It is morally difficult for Canadians to watch and understand all the legal and international impediments. It reminds me of the old days in Ethiopia. That's troublesome.
Will there be a change and will the dialogue be real dialogue? That, I think, is the question underpinning what Senator Ngo was saying.
Mr. Frenette: Well, Madam Chair, I think that going forward there is no doubt that Canada's voice on issues of human rights will continue to be heard loud and clear in this region, at the OAS and elsewhere.
We will continue, at the OAS and bilaterally, to call on the Venezuelan government to do what needs to be done to ensure that the crisis that is enduring in the country now ends and that people have access to food and to the medicines that they need on a daily basis. That will most definitely continue.
The Chair: Following up on Senator Ngo's questions, I know there were initiatives from past presidents of countries in South America and Central America that tried to get in to talk to the imprisoned political people and were denied that right. If the people who testified here today run into any difficulties, what will Canada's position be?
Mr. Frenette: That's a hypothetical.
The Chair: Yes.
Mr. Frenette: Assuming that it was the case, I think we would continue to do exactly what we're doing now, and that's to call on respect for human rights, to call for dialogue in the country and to call for compromise between all parties in the country. I don't think that would change.
It would be unacceptable, of course, if the gentlemen that were here before us were somehow punished for being here today, for being in this country today to talk about democracy and for talking about the situation in Venezuela. That would be a most unfortunate thing, and I don't think there would be a doubt that Canada would speak out against that.
Senator Ngo: If that's the case, can the Canadian embassy or the ambassador in Venezuela ask permission to visit Leopoldo López?
The Chair: He has, I think.
Mr. Frenette: I'm told by my Venezuelan expert here that he has, and he's been told no.
Senator Ngo: Could we try?
Mr. Frenette: The ambassador has and he's been told no.
Senator Ngo: He has been there and the Venezuelans said no?
Mr. Frenette: Yes.
Senator Ngo: Thank you.
The Chair: Senator Rivard, we're over time, but I know you have a question.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: I have a quick question for you. You mentioned that Venezuela owes money to EDC. Since Venezuela has galloping inflation, I assume the amount is in Canadian or U.S. dollars, and not in bolivars?
Ms. Cesaratto: Yes, all international trade is usually in a more stable currency.
Senator Rivard: That's what I thought. Thank you.
[English]
The Chair: I have one further question about the OAS. I have not seen anything from the present government about joining the Inter-American Court. I knew the position of the past government.
Mr. Frenette: I think you raised that last time, chair.
The Chair: I keep raising it. Governments change and I never do.
Mr. Frenette: There's been no discussion so far, chair, but it's noted.
The Chair: Perhaps I'll have an opportunity the next time.
Mr. Frenette: The next time you invite us to talk about another country in the Latin American or Caribbean, we'll see if we can have a better answer for you.
The Chair: For some of the newer members of the committee, the Human Rights Committee actually made recommendations on the Inter-American Court many governments ago, and that report is still current. It was followed up.
I think we've come to the end of our meeting. Perhaps you can convey back to the department our sincere appreciation that you do come and speak to the extent that you can and are as open as you can be. We understand that you're here from the department, not from the political end. We do take the opportunity, through you, to signal some issues that worry us. I hope we've done that, including that the dialogue at some point has to produce results. Otherwise, we have to contemplate multilateral and bilateral international consequences for the lack of response. We appreciate that you appeared before the committee.
(The committee adjourned.)