Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 38 - Evidence - May 23, 2018
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 23, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:47 p.m., to continue its study on the new relationship between Canada and First Nations, Inuit and Metis peoples.
Senator Lillian Eva Dyck (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Good evening. Tunsi.
[English]
Good evening. I would like to welcome all honourable senators and members of the public who are watching this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples either here in the room or via the Web.
I would like to acknowledge for the sake of reconciliation that we are meeting on the traditional, unceded lands of the Algonquin people.
My name is Lillian Dyck. I have the honour of chairing this meeting, and I’m from Saskatchewan.
I now invite my fellow senators to introduce themselves.
Senator Tannas: Scott Tannas from Alberta.
Senator Doyle: Norman Doyle, Newfoundland and Labrador.
Senator Ngo: Senator Thanh Hai Ngo from Ontario.
Senator Boyer: Yvonne Boyer, Ontario.
Senator McCallum: Mary Jane McCallum, Manitoba.
Senator Christmas: Daniel Christmas, Nova Scotia.
Senator McPhedran: Marilou McPhedran, Manitoba.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Sandra Lovelace, New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you, senators.
Before we begin the meeting, is it agreed that Communications be authorized to take photos during this meeting?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Thank you, senators. It is so agreed.
Tonight, we continue phase 2 of our study on what a new relationship between Canada and First Nations, Metis and Inuit people could look like. Today, we are speaking with Jacquelyn Cardinal, an Indigenous business woman whom we have met before in our Indigenize the Senate event, which was last year. Nice to see you again.
Jacquelyn, you have the floor, to be followed by questions from senators.
Jacquelyn Cardinal, as an individual: Thank you again for having me back. I had a marvellous experience last summer, and I’m so excited to be here to have a longer conversation as well. Thank you again.
I bring greetings from the city of Edmonton on Treaty 6 territory, as well as from the Sucker Creek Cree First Nation on Treaty 8 territory, which is the traditional home of my people, the Sakawithiniwak.
When I was 25 years old, I asked an elder a question that had been on my mind for the majority of my youth: How do I know whether I’m doing the right thing?
My family has had a long history of great leaders making great change. The pride I had always felt in that fact had always been overshadowed by my anxiety about accidentally taking the wrong path or making the wrong decisions and spoiling those sacrifices and achievements.
I had asked that question to others before, with responses varying from “Don’t worry about it; you will find the part you’re meant to play,” to “Who is to say what’s right?” to “Geez, Jacq, you’re so young. Lighten up a bit.”
But as I sat in circle with this elder and some other youth, I hoped for an answer that would take away or even just blunt my fear. Perhaps there was a ceremony I could go into to see what was coming. After all, my name, Flying White Eagle, carries a story of an ancient grandmother who time travels into the future. The very concept of the future is in my spirit, so clearly, I reasoned, my dread was simply from a lack of knowledge.
“What you might not realize,” the elder told me, “is that as an Indigenous person in your generation, you may feel as if you’re walking alone, on bridges in the sky between worlds. And while you’re walking, you might not meet anyone for long spans of time. This isn’t because you’re lost or in the wrong place. You’re in the right place. The old ones built those bridges, and so many of us, the sick and the wounded, have gotten lost and haven’t found their way back to them yet.” His eyes were understanding. “You’re just early.”
So, in an attempt to address the subject of this committee hearing in the broadest view, the clearest vision I have of an ideal future for me and my descendants is of these bridges: ancient, strong and wide, not just to be used to meet in the middle to shake hands and be happy to go back to our own worlds without incident, but to be used by all to venture forth, to visit, listen and learn on the other side, and then journey back home transformed.
They are cared for by the children on both sides who have the strength of both people. It remains clean and safe, and is a place that comes to mind in times of need and in times of celebration. Our bridges are a part of who we are, and we all stand taller because we have them.
How do we reach such a future?
What I humbly propose to you, as a committee, is that parallel to the line of inquiry you are pursuing here, there is another process we must embark upon in order to build the true foundations of lasting nation-to-nation relationships and that allows truly Indigenous foundations to create the abundant conditions for moving forward. Today, I want to describe this parallel process, how it works, and why it is an essential part of truly realizing your intentions.
What I believe we must first acknowledge is that there is nothing truly new required to achieve a healthy set of nation-to-nation relationships. What we are seeking is, in fact, a resurgence of a specific parallel relationship which is part of the original spirit and intent of the treaties made between Indigenous nations on Turtle Island prior to contact and in the agreements made during the negotiations of our contemporary treaties between Indigenous nations and the Crown. It is one fundamentally rooted in peace, friendship and understanding, and one that facilitates us moving forward as sovereign, vibrant peoples travelling down the river of life together.
Pre-contact treaties were not forged in the service of achieving a specific future. They were made to strengthen a code of ethics rooted in the importance of a relationship that would enable future generations, that were over the horizon where they could not see, to make the decisions that they deemed correct based on their interpretations of those ancient guiding principles dynamically applying in that future. They believed in the incredibly important role they had as being stewards of the land and of the guiding principles or Indigenous natural law that is derived from the land, as well as in their responsibility to root their children and grandchildren in those core teachings so that they are ready to meet the challenges of their time.
In other words, to my people, we exist within a set of temporal severalties, with the future not belonging to us. From what I can glean from the teachings of our elders, overstepping those bounds is akin to declaring that we know better than our descendants would.
What we require is a radically different method for approaching how we build these nation-to-nation relationships that shift away from a single linear, product-based trajectory to one including a circular, process-based and value-driven journey. Instead of attempting to create this from scratch, I believe the way to achieve this is by utilizing sets of Indigenous natural laws that have successfully facilitated such systems in the past.
A great deal of the work I do today with my company Naheyawin concerns directly facilitating change in how non-Indigenous people think about and move toward building relationships with Indigenous peoples. To enable that work, my brother and business partner, Hunter Cardinal, and I are continually seeking out and refining our understanding of natural laws by engaging with the language and mythologies of our people. This approach has been extremely helpful in navigating where the West does not have congruent methods for developing the types of relationships that we envision. There are three laws in particular that I believe may provide some guidance for this study. I’d like to share them with you today.
The first natural law is one I mentioned the last time I was here, wahkohtowin, which means “kinship.” It informs the way in which we contextualize ourselves within interconnecting systems that comprise our universe. It is an important law for conceptualizing relationships from an Indigenous perspective and helps remind us that all of our relationships, including the nation-to-nation relationships, exist as a part of a continuous spiralling path upward from the self through our families, communities, nations, and the natural and spiritual world.
Second, in order to create those nation-to-nation relationships, we must build understanding with our concept of nistotomuk. From our research, this is the word used by our people before the English word “treaty.” The prefix “nisto” refers to the number 3, as there are three parts of any strong relationship and the order in which you actually develop them. First is the development of understanding of the context of our interconnectedness to all things; second, the development of our own self-recognition; and third, the compassionate inquiry and knowledge building about the other. Instead of immediately seeking to develop an external path, we develop deep understanding of all parts of the relationship we wish to build. For, as we believe, as Ludwig Wittgenstein once said, “To understand is to know what to do.”
The third and final natural law I wanted to share was how we keep centred in this struggle, because deep relationship building is really hard work. We refer to sakiyatuk, which translates most directly into “love one another.” But the teachings inherent in the word go much deeper. “Saki” means “grow” and comes from the observations made about how our mother Earth cares for all things, through allowing plants to grow, and forms the basis of our word for “love,” “sakihitowin.” The elder who gave us this teaching said that this law guides us to understand that we have been given this life to honour all those around us, human and non-human, and that the way we show this is by finding joy in being part of the universe as it grows and changes with us, and that every act of growth is an act of love.
One of the reasons I was so excited to be asked back to continue being a part of this study is because of how formative the process was for me, thinking deeply about the questions asked of myself and my peers as youth leaders last summer and in trying to find something useful in those thoughts to be of service to you all. It was quite the thing to flip over the stones of what makes up the day-to-day of being a young, urban Indigenous woman with a penchant for entrepreneurship, technology and communications and find deep roots — not just my own, but also the ones that underpin the nation-to-nation relationships all of us here today are dedicated to reinvigorating.
I believe that experience was a glimpse of the parallel process that is missing — of a process which frees us to first understand ourselves by delving deep into our own systems to find the wisdom and guidance that we need, directed by our own methodologies — free from the constraints that typify so many of our daily lives; free from focusing only on our pain; free from the bounding that, while carried out with the best of intentions, limits our ability to bring what our ancestors gave us to use on our side of the horizon.
It is a glimpse of Indigenous peoples of all ages, within their own communities, uncovering the Indigenous laws that govern their own relationship and ancient treaty-making processes, and, in doing so, connecting to the ancient wisdom that grounds them. From that rootedness, it’s being able to speak from a place of strength with non-Indigenous peoples to seek to truly understand and be understood. With that understanding, it’s reaching out to engage in a collaborative process to make decisions, standing tall, about what must be done to renew or establish a relationship with the Government of Canada in an unending cycle.
In some ways, this suggestion for a parallel process — what my people might call the nistotomuk process — is calling us back to put certain things in order before we move ahead. But in another, it is also calling us forward to a path that we have not yet walked together as Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples as true equals and partners, growing into a future we don’t yet see.
If you do decide to lead us forward on this great journey, a journey that I know well, in my own small way, as one full of the highs and lows of possibility and responsibility, I offer to you what was said to me once, sparking in me my vision and my hope for the future: Remember that sometimes you may feel as if you’re walking alone on bridges in the sky between worlds, and while you’re walking you might not meet anyone for long spans of time. This isn’t because you are lost or in the wrong place. You are in the right place. The old ones built those bridges and so many of us, the sick and the wounded, have gotten lost and haven’t found their way back to them yet. You’re just early.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
Senator Tannas: It’s usually my custom, as deputy chair, to get the first question, but I’m still processing what you said. I’m so glad you’re here. I’d like to pass and come back. Thank you.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Thank you for being here tonight. I really enjoyed your presentation.
My question to you is: What does reconciliation and nation-to-nation relationship mean to you? I’ll tell you why I ask you this question after.
Ms. Cardinal: After? Oh, no.
I have seen a lot of the discourse around reconciliation really revolving around — it’s almost like it’s a list of prohibitions of things certainly not to do anymore so that we can start to heal and then be able to move forward together, and then embark on that nation-to-nation relationship building.
For me and the work that I do with my company, typically when people call us, they say, “We really want to do reconciliation.” Okay, great. So we pull out the TRC, we go to I think it’s action 92. It says to go and look at UNDRIP, we look at UNDRIP and then we’re looking at all of these different really broad kind of directives.
What we find in that process is that reconciliation is one conversation of many that we need to be having. I think that one thing that’s kind of unfortunate about reconciliation, if there is anything unfortunate about reconciliation, is that it is the dominant conversation to the point where I think that some people may perceive that it is the only conversation that is worth having. It is frustrating, because just from my family alone and my friends and in my own life, there’s much more to us than being a product of pain and being a product of basically being victims.
For me, I try to really contextualize reconciliation as part of a larger set of conversations that need to happen and then use that to make sure it’s kind of like, okay, we have a set of rules. We certainly will abide by these. Now let’s dream big and move forward together.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: Thanks for your answer. Just a short rebuttal.
The reason why I asked you this question is because it doesn’t seem like it is. First Nations are never properly consulted and First Nations are always never included in negotiations. Could you answer to that?
Ms. Cardinal: I’m 27. To me, that’s starting to sound old. What I’ve been seeing is that we’re very early in this process that we’re in and I think that we need to aim high and hold each other accountable, while also making sure we’re keeping an eye on things that aren’t going well and then also have some measure of kindness around how we treat each other on this kind of unsure path that we’re on. Because I really do think, my brother and I, we constantly use this framing device of seven-generations thinking. So 150 or 175 years from now, that is the context we want to operate within because our elders always joke that humans are really bad about thinking about anything other than our immediate short term. That’s why we have to have ceremony and these framing devices.
I think that’s important to keep in mind when we’re approaching these really big problems. As much as we would all like things to be over within the next five to ten years, I think this will be a long process. Kindness along the way, I think, is important, again while holding each other accountable.
Senator Lovelace Nicholas: It’s been over 150 years and nothing has happened positively. I’m just glad that you’re positive that the next 150 years, something is going to happen. Thank you.
Senator Doyle: Thank you for being here. You talked about facilitating change in our relationship. Should there be, in your opinion, more? Is it time for a more formal body of national consultation, similar, say, to the annual premiers’ conference that we have every year where Canadian federal and provincial leaders come together annually to interface with a prescribed group of Indigenous leaders and the various bodies having seats — say, Indigenous women’s organizations — on that kind of a national body? Would that be an improvement? Would that work better than the current kind of consultations that we’re involved in right now?
Ms. Cardinal: I don’t think I’m actually aware of all the different consultations that you’re all undertaking at this time, but I think that sounds like one of many strategies that would certainly be helpful for moving forward. Any time that you get a lot of Indigenous people together to talk about problems we’re experiencing, things tend to get done. I would be really interested in that kind of thing.
I would again hesitate about trying to define single next steps, because so much of what I wanted to bring here today was talking about the methodologies with which we’re actually moving forward. I think this kind of “let’s try this, let’s try this, let’s try this” might be doing more work than we need to because there are so many guiding principles that were provided by our ancestors that we can use to leapfrog that throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Again, I would return back to how are we ensuring that our Indigenous youth are actually having access to the guiding principles that their culture has and which they might not have that connection to. A few things, like my background is in technology, so really looking at how we can utilize things like blockchain technologies and artificial intelligence to encode that ancient knowledge in there so people can have more access to that type of knowledge we all need, again beginning from a nistotomuk understanding that we need to be strong with who we are before we can seek to build understanding with other people.
I think that process will overlap between people as well. Different people will be in different places during that conversation, so it’s not as if we have to wait for everyone to be well rooted and then we can continue. It will be an overlapping process that will continue into the future.
Senator Doyle: We’ve heard it said here at committee that Indigenous women, they don’t have a sufficiently meaningful role in the nature of Indigenous institutions, say. Are they consulted? Are they included in the major decision-making processes in the communities? What’s your opinion on that?
Ms. Cardinal: I think you’re touching on something that’s really important. Just in my own life, I’ve really struggled to find Indigenous women leaders about whom I can say, “That’s who I want to be like,” and follow in a given path. A lot of the time it feels like there are a couple of people further ahead and that’s pretty much what you have and you have to hope you’re doing the right thing.
If you look at a lot of our traditional ways of organizing communities, it’s typically the women that are actually the heart of those communities. The way this is happening is again another vestige of the long colonizing process of losing that ability to have our women be more part of these conversations.
That is why I’m saying if we were to connect more with our Indigenous ways of organizing and governing ourselves, we would probably be able to show up in a way that would reflect our rooted selves, and we wouldn’t have as many of those types of problems where we are struggling to make sure that our women’s voices are being heard, that youth are also being heard, that our elders are being heard, and that we would have a much more multifaceted view of what is actually occurring.
Senator McPhedran: Jacquelyn, it is so good to have you back with us.
Ms. Cardinal: Thank you for having me.
Senator McPhedran: I’m glad we have a little more time for some discussion.
Please draw the line if this seems too personal, but I wanted to ask you about the changes that you’ve experienced as an Indigenous woman in business, and if you could share with us at least one positive highlight and one negative highlight about your journey as a relatively young Indigenous businesswoman.
Ms. Cardinal: It’s a great question. It’s something that’s quite interesting, because I’ve spoken with some other Indigenous women as well who feel the same way. Our gender is almost a secondary facet to who we are. So we’re Indigenous first and then we’re women. There have been a couple of times I have been asked to be on podcasts for interviewing women in business and I was like, “Huh, I forgot.”
I’m trying to go into these conversations where I’m not talking about Indigenous stuff at all unless I bring it up, and it’s focused on my gender. It’s a really funny experience to almost forget that’s what’s going on.
I actually had a really immense honour. Last month, I received an Esquao Award for business, which is the first non-youth award I have been given, so I was like, “Yes, I’ve arrived.”
It was amazing to be in rooms full of women who are supporting each other and who are achieving amazing things as Indigenous women being supported by Indigenous women. That was quite amazing to see.
Seeing those types of initiatives pop up has been really exciting. I know the Esquao Awards have been around for quite a while in Alberta, but it has grown quite large in the last few years, as I understand it. It’s a really neat way to really recognize the achievements of women and take the time to do that. I think that’s an important thing that we need to do more of.
I’ve seen that. I know for me it’s tough because I have had a relatively short career, so I’m trying to make generalizations across three or four years, really.
I actually have seen, being in rooms where I’m in a boardroom full of people making decisions, and I will feel a sense of stepping back and of not wanting to lean forward and be a part of the decision-making process initially. I find our Indigenous men at the table are tend to be the ones who advocate for us to lean in. I think that’s interesting, as well. I think Indigenous men are starting to see this is something they can really be a part of in moving forward, too.
There is the Moose Hide Campaign for violence against women. A lot of Indigenous men — I think it’s the rule now, not the exception, when men aren’t involved or don’t know about that campaign. There’s a real rallying point around the concept of what is happening to our women and in terms of achievement and in business as well.
Yes, I think it’s been an interesting process for me to uncover the fact that I have that intersection and really be able to kind of interrogate it and find out for myself what I can do to actually be a part of a solution as well. I make as much an effort as I can to try to meet with Indigenous youth, and specifically women, to encourage them to go into business. I think a lot of the time it is seen as kind of a boy’s space, which is really unfortunate, and then made even harder by the fact that there aren’t very many Indigenous people in business, at least in the industries that I circulate in.
Yes, I’m really heartened by it and I try to be a part of that solution. The more we take those moments to celebrate our women and the achievements that they make, I think that we’re going to be going in the right direction.
Senator McPhedran: I feel a little hesitant to pour any water on that wonderful response, but there was a second part to my question, and it was about, if you will, sharing with us a particularly challenging and/or negative experience and what you would say about both what you learned from that and if there’s something we need to learn from that.
This isn’t limited to your time as a businesswoman. This is to your experience as being a young woman leader.
Ms. Cardinal: It’s a good question. I find I’m almost forcefully optimistic and positive.
My brother is my business partner and there are some occasions when I’ll read the room and I’ll say, “Here is a note you should read, Hunter. This is what you should say, because I know if I was to say this idea, it wouldn’t be as well received as if you did.” He has the added awesome of being an actor, so he is also this great orator.
I do know often that there are times where I almost feel that, in the pursuit of trying to make sure that the changes that we’re trying to make have the best chance of actually getting in the door, often I do need to say, “Can you do this? I can’t.” It was actually in working with my brother that I have seen there are times where the doors will open much more readily for him than for me.
I think that it’s the same kind of expectation that I had, where I had a pretty meandering path being a businesswoman and entrepreneur, despite the fact I was the kid with the lemonade stands quite young and I was really into the eBay garage sale thing during junior high and high school. I did show a lot of the signs of a real capacity towards going into that space, but I didn’t see, for some reason, that was something I could do.
I think that’s very similar to what other people are experiencing and they’re reading the kind of the same landscape I am. “Oh, this man said it, so it might have more value or it might fit their kind of expectation of what Indigenous knowledge looks like.”
I have really struggled to find stories about our women. I reference a lot of stories that are either mythology of the White Eagle Woman or I’ll reference stories that are a little more contemporary about our women. Otherwise, we have a lot of stories about very strong men and that’s been quite difficult. I didn’t realize how difficult or challenging it would be to carry on and try to do big things when you don’t have as many demonstrations of this grand hero taking on this journey. I think that those stories are very important.
I don’t believe that those stories are lost. I think that there are a lot of stories that need to be made. Many of our elders say there are songs and ceremonies and stories that you need to make for the challenges of your time. So I think it’s a call to action, as well.
There’s definitely a bit of a void. For me, I often walk through my days feeling like there is a funny gap there. I’m sure there was something there that isn’t there any more. I don’t know what it was, but I know the shape of it. Stories about women are one of those holes and I think that’s something that I haven’t really heard talked about very much. Again, I think it is because there is a real hesitancy as well to not criticize but, say, “Hey, there is a thing I need here, but I’m not sure how to ask for it.” It sounds picky with how much effort was put into maintaining and saving what we do have.
I’m not sure if that was helpful.
Senator McPhedran: Yes, very.
Senator Boyer: Thank you for coming, Jacquelyn. It’s a pleasure to meet you.
What you’re talking about is a basis for change and using a co-designed approach that would be inclusive of Indigenous natural law that is derived from the land and animals and the natural spaces around us.
You have the benefit of the community to guide you. You have your elders to guide you. What about the people who are Indigenous living in the city or in urban areas who aren’t so connected back to their community? What advice would you have on how to implement this co-designed approach that relies on natural laws?
Ms. Cardinal: I was trying to figure out a good word for what I meant by the process I was suggesting. Co-design was one that I ended up discarding because it isn’t about making a single thing together; it’s about trying to utilize the fact that there can be parallel processes working in the same direction, again in line with the idea of the treaty, where we can work in parallel on what we need to work on and help each other navigate down this river of life we’re going down together. But it’s not necessarily collaborating on the same thing at all given times. I think there are places where there would be natural crossovers.
For me, I go back to the Two Row Wampum visualizations because it helps me think. It’s this idea of the ship and the canoe going down the river of the life. There is work to be done on the ship and work to be done on the canoe. There’s also work to be done between us to make sure we maintain our relationship, and sovereignty and separateness as well. There are three pieces to what we need to do.
It’s not entirely co-creating or co-designing. It is much more “let’s try and see if we can’t keep these pieces separate and understand there are multiple things that need to happen.”
That being said, if I’m understanding your question correctly, you’re talking about the work that needs to be done on the canoe.
Senator Boyer: Right. How would you implement that as an Indigenous person in an urban environment?
Ms. Cardinal: I am, so this is perfect. There is a bit of a supply-and-demand problem. We’re not typically told, “Hey, for homework, you need to go and talk with your kokum and find these Indigenous natural laws.” It just doesn’t happen.
There are a lot of things that are extremely important around learning your language. My company is named Naheyawin, which is actually a shortened version of Nehiyawewin, which is the Cree word for “Cree.” It literally is about our language, because we believe that when enough people forget the language, remember, so understanding language is very important.
Doing things like learning language is very important, but there isn’t enough of a demand on Indigenous people in terms of it being something we must go reclaim because it’s relevant and will not only help us but it will help Canada go where we want it to go. If there were a call put out and that it is a top priority for us to develop two paths of a process that need to happen, then that would be a part of the solution. There’s that piece.
There is the supply-and-demand problem and then there is also an issue of accessibility. The majority of Indigenous people now live in urban centres, as you’re saying, and a lot of Indigenous people who live in urban centres tend to not be as close to family as they would be in their traditional territories, the reservations.
I just look to my experience. Because I was coming here and wanted to be useful to you all that I thought I should probably find something that only I have access to, because you guys are the Senate of Canada. Having that request was really important. In that respect, I felt like I could come here and actually say, “This is what I believe to be true” and you guys wouldn’t say, “That’s nice. We’re continuing on with this process now.” That was also important — the sense of respect, as well, and creating that space.
One core teaching that I ended up eliminating, because I had a theme of three going, was tatawaw which means “welcome, there is room.” I mentioned this last time as well. It’s this idea that to be welcoming, you make space for others. That is based on one of the grandmother teachings of the teepee. We always have room for more grandchildren. It’s this idea of making space.
There is so much wisdom in that teaching. If we want to have more Indigenous people rooted in their Indigenous governance principles to be a part of this process, we need to first make space for it to happen.
Then we need to leverage technology as much as we can. As a youth myself, I know that we are very connected online, and I think that we typically use the Internet for entertainment purposes as opposed to learning. That’s a missed opportunity. That’s again a supply-and-demand issue, where there is not enough Indigenous people actually in the tech industry to be able to point and say, “Here is a problem where technology can be a help in solving.” Again, it’s about putting out that call.
I’ve seen in my own day-to-day life that there are lots of non-Indigenous people who wish to be a part of the solution, if we told them what we needed and asked them to help. “Here are the rules of engagement. Just to be clear, you’re helping us on our path, but this is not your path.” That is something I find people really take up with gusto.
Again, I find that it is understanding that this is work that needs to be done on the canoe and respecting that separateness, making sure there is a call from your group to say this is something that we value and we will respect, and then also making sure that we use all the tools that we have available to get there and — it’s not a joke — we can’t be romantic about the way we get through it this time. We really have to use everything we have, like my grandfather did when he was farming. He used everything he could to support his family. We need to adopt that same kind of thinking.
Senator Boyer: Very practical tips. Thank you.
Senator McCallum: Welcome, and thank you for your presentation. It was awesome.
I’m going to go back to the institutional relationship that exists. The only reason I’m going back to it is that I cannot envision a government-to-government relationship right now. I have vocalized that before.
Part of the difficulty for me is because I was institutionalized in a residential school from the age of 5, so really I’ve been trying to get out of that, mentally and spiritually. What we deal with, whether it’s people or policies, they’re entrenched in institutions — what I deal with — and with a power imbalance most of the time.
I’ve been caught up in policies and procedures for 66 years now. When I go home, I see our people starting to administer the way they were colonized, is what I’m saying. To get out of this, I had to re-learn my Cree language, because the spirituality came from that. When I went in, I only spoke Cree and I lived on the land. I listened to elders, and that’s what actually saved me — to be able to go back down the spiral and try and regain my identity.
I understand when you say wahkohtowin and that we do all exist. So there’s respect that comes with it. I’ve learned that and to understand kinstutinaw, but I have to direct it in word as well. It’s hard to keep centred when you’re trying to move forward and your whole psyche is used to that.
Do you know Taiaiake Alfred?
Ms. Cardinal: Yes.
Senator McCallum: What he said keeps coming back in my head, and maybe that’s partly what’s blocking it. He said, “How can a sovereign nation entrench itself?” It’s like a stone. This is the Indigenous nation digging into a stone that’s built by the existing government. They can just chip away at it. That’s how I see it. Maybe that’s what keeps me behind.
I think I need some guidance on how to now move on from here, because this is a really archaic institution, the Senate. When I came here, some of my friends wondered how I was going to deal with this institution. I hadn’t even thought of it. I was just happy to be coming here. And then I was, like, okay.
Anyway, here I am. Here we all are. But there are fabulous teachers here. Everyone, thank you so much.
Could you provide some examples of Indigenous laws such as wahkohtowin and how it can be applied to develop a new relationship between Indigenous peoples and Canada?
Ms. Cardinal: There is the one I brought today, the concept of nistotomuk which is the three parts of a relationship we need to have. I find what’s so important about that is it places first your connection to all things. I also found my connection through language and through listening to elders and, again, understanding that you do have connection. I find that a lot of Indigenous people, especially youth that grow up in the city, tend to have a feeling that they are all alone and I think that is a fundamental problem. If you don’t believe that you’re connected, how can you believe that you could help? How do you believe that you matter? How do you believe that there’s anything to strive for, that you could ever touch? I think that’s something that we need to start with. I say “youth,” but I think that there are youth of all ages that can use that connection.
Then, from there, being able to build on that and understand and really delve into ourselves and see ourselves and our knowledge bases as useful and as valuable and simply another way of building knowledge. I think that’s something that we’re still in the very early stages of doing. Where I’m finding there to be the most resistance at this point is in going into institutions and with organizations that I work at and meeting resistance at the process level. Meeting resistance like, “We want to do reconciliation, but we don’t want to really approach this differently. Like we know what we’re doing.” I’m thinking, “Clearly you don’t,” and pushing gently on that.
Developing alternatives is so important, and that’s why I focus so strongly on our Indigenous natural law and hoping that I put them in front of enough people, talk with enough youth, and understand it enough myself that eventually it grows into something a little bit more like a method, so that we can actually say here is a full method, an alternative that we can use. Let’s roll it down some hills and see what falls off, and try again and see how we can make it better and make sure we can use it in a real world.
I think that sense of discovery and play, and feeling as if we’re not just inheriting our Indigenous natural law but that it was a gift given to us by our ancestors to use as we see fit, when we see fit, and if it doesn’t fit what we’re doing then we need to be able to think ourselves and believe that that’s what we’re supposed to do. I’m saying that while feeling very clenchy, because that’s something I struggle with. Feeling worthy enough to touch things that are so sacred and make decisions is very hard and I think I’m not alone in that.
So, yes, I go back to the nistotomuk process of first you feel connected. Then you understand yourself. Then you seek to understand the other. Because if you do it in any other order, I think that that’s why we get that tugging forward, I feel the exact same, especially as a youth that’s so interested in technology. I feel like I’m constantly saying: What do you see, Jacquelyn? I feel like I’m not ready to go forward yet. I feel there is some stuff I need to root myself in first or else I’ll get blown away, kind of float away. I think that’s very important.
It’s really exciting to me to hear you ask that question. I think sometimes we think we’re the only people that think about those things. That was really lovely for me. Thank you. I hope I answered.
Senator Christmas: Thank you, Jacquelyn, very much for coming this evening. I really appreciate your comment that it’s nothing new. As you know, one of the biggest challenges — maybe even mysteries — for a lot of Indigenous people is how do we get along with our non-Indigenous brothers and sisters? I can imagine when the first settlers arrived that must have been a big problem, a big mystery, but I think our elders back then knew how to develop that relationship. You said there is nothing new, today. In 2018, we’re still struggling to build that relationship with our non-Indigenous brothers and sisters.
I love the three natural laws. I know you explained the first one a little bit. My question is, can you explain or give us an example of how you apply each of those three natural laws in developing, improving or bettering the relationship between yourself or your family with non-Indigenous people? I know you’re in an urban area, so that’s probably a way of life, but can you give us some examples just to help us better understand how those three natural laws work?
Ms. Cardinal: For sure. That’s a tough one. Before I get into the natural laws, I thought as well that I’m just like, oh, like my great-great-grandfather — probably five greats — who signed Treaty 8, he for sure knew what to do. How terrifying would it be to negotiate a treaty? There are stories of people listening to him talking during that time, with him saying, “I have no idea what I’m doing,” and about how almost everybody who has done great things in my family, all of them have stories of people talking to them and their saying, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” For me, that helps me, because it’s not like those people at that time knew what they were doing. They were confident and knew what was going on, but they were also uncertain and fearful. So that helps me.
I think that sometimes fear is a good indicator that we’re understanding the gravity of the situation we’re in and the impact we could have. I think about how in those time travel movies when you travel back in time no one wants to change anything, but that was literally the context they were in every day. We have the ability to change the future with small actions.
How do we apply these laws in the work I do? Wahkohtowin is really important because I think that a lot of people that I work with, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, actually, tend to kind of narrow their focus from “these are the relationships that matter” to one or two rungs. Most people completely bypass the first rung of the spiral of wahkohtowin that goes up like this. They ignore the first rung that is the self, and they go to immediately trying to take care of their family or they even bypass that and immediately start trying to be part of a community.
I think that that is actually a really important piece to even explain to people in general. It’s like, hey, remember when we’re talking about relationships, each and every relationship matters and we need to make sure we’re keeping tabs on them and maintaining all of our relationships. We can’t just focus on one and expect that to go well.
I find that’s important as a reminder for myself as I enter into this work. I’m learning more and more that, like a lot of people who endeavour to be engaged with community, it can take up everything. Making sure that doesn’t happen is really important. You do jump up and you be a part of nature; you remember that you’re connected there and that you’re connected to the larger spiritual world. You remember you’re a person and a spirit first and that’s the first relationship you must take care of. For me, sometimes it’s a little bit frustrating because I want to get out there, but I need to make sure I’m rooted as much as I can be and I’m constantly working on that. So I feel that’s important.
I also feel with a lot of people I work with that is a completely new concept. Even in telling them this is where we’re coming from, that education process is really interesting and I think that let’s people see things in a little bit of a different way. Once you see things you can’t really unsee them, so I think that helps.
So, yes, wahkohtowin is a really good thing. It’s a tool, something like if I were to have a big framed like painting in my home it would be of the wahkohtowin spiral. So I’m like, yes, I remember that and I go about my day, and I think everybody needs to.
That would be the first one.
I’ll start with nistotomuk. Often, again, when I’m brought in, people are like, “We need help with reconciliation.” I’m like, “Great.” So I come and say, “Let’s start with who you are.” They say, “No, no, no. We want to do reconciliation.” If you want this to be sustainable, if you want this work that you want to do to be part of who you are as an organization, there is a much better chance of it being a sustainable process that can go on in perpetuity, which is the goal, not to burn ourselves out and say, “We did a lot of work and reconciliation wasn’t solved, I don’t know what we did wrong.” Making sure it connects directly to their own corporate principles oftentimes is very important, and then being able to tie their goals from that point.
A lot of the work we do, we look at the TRC and we always have to do this step. But when you look at the TRC, if you’re talking to a corporation, you connect and say that you’re supposed to look at the UNDRIP. You look at the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and you see there’s literally the whole world open to you on what you can do to be a part of pushing that mandate forward.
What we end up doing is saying, okay we need to choose. We can’t do all the articles in UNDRIP, so let’s choose articles that align with the corporate values that you have. That way, when you’re referring to them in the future about we believe in inclusivity, here’s the article in UNDRIP that directly relates to that and will help us guide ourselves in the decisions we make moving forward. That’s a pretty clear through lines.
I find that often nistotomuk is really useful in helping understand that you must know yourself before you can start to build that relationship and understanding it on that level is really helpful.
Again, on an organizational level, there are values there, too. Our goal is to make sure that sustainability idea is always at the front of our minds.
Then sakiyatuk goes back to people being okay with the fact this is a long journey and we’re going to make mistakes. If we’re going on this journey, we need to have this base idea that we are going to be growing and changing, and that growing and changing is an act of love. If you’re changing that is in that line. Failure, trying something and it is not working, needing to double back and figure out what you need to do and then move forward, this dynamic process needs to be kind and loving and warm. Any action done not with that warmth is not good. You have to have that warmth as being a part of everything you do. So sakiyatuk is an important part of that.
Oftentimes, again, a lot of the work we end up doing is saying “Let’s talk about you, let’s talk about where you want to go, let’s talk about how this aligns with where Indigenous peoples want to go, and let’s really talk about how you’re going to treat yourself when things don’t go as planned, when you find an area where you need to grow.” I think that all of those things together really form a very safe place. Again, oftentimes I’m trying to think of things that I want to exist for my children and grandchildren to exist within. How do you want them to treat themselves if they make a mistake? Learn from it, but don’t shy away from that.
Is that complete enough?
Senator Christmas: That’s great. Sakiyatuk is probably what the Senate needs more than anything.
Senator Tannas: I still have a huge number of questions, so I’m going to ask them and fire them off, and then I’d like to get some advice from you. Where did you go to elementary school?
Ms. Cardinal: I went to Brookside Elementary School in Riverbend in Edmonton.
Senator Tannas: And where did you go to high school?
Ms. Cardinal: I went to Scona High School. I feel so great that I have to struggle to remember that. It means it’s far enough away. And Jasper Place High School is where I graduated from.
Senator Tannas: My dad went to Scona. And post-secondary?
Ms. Cardinal: University of Alberta.
Senator Tannas: Is it fair to say that you are comfortable in Edmonton, that you are an Edmontonian and you feel comfortable in all facets of the community? Do you feel connected to Edmonton in the way that I might feel connected to my community?
Ms. Cardinal: It’s so tough to say, because obviously I only know my own experience. Comfort, I’m not sure.
Senator Tannas: You feel like an outsider there?
Ms. Cardinal: I certainly did when I was younger. In a lot of ways now I’ve found a way to make sure that my values as an Indigenous person are an inherent part of my every day, which is a lot of work. Starting in business is a lot of work in the first place, and trying to do something that I haven’t personally seen and trying to see how we can make it look the way it does now is a lot of work.
Senator Tannas: So, you are obviously connected with your culture and did that help you, then, get connected or feel more comfortable in Edmonton? Obviously, you’ve spent a bunch of time connecting to your culture.
Ms. Cardinal: Yes. I think instead of comfort, what I would say is I feel like the closest feeling I think I’ve had to it is when you’re on a soccer team and you have a goal together. You’re all kind of aligned and you’re going in a direction that you all agree is a good direction and you feel that camaraderie, but it’s not over. You still have to put in effort. I think that would be the closest way that I say how I feel. Certainly not comfort.
Edmonton is a very interesting place. I wouldn’t want to do this work anywhere else, because it is such a place where there is such a hunger, as there is in so many other parts of Canada for change, while not being exactly sure what that means. I think that’s an exciting place to be and being able to say, “Let’s try some stuff” and people saying, “Yeah, let’s do it.” It’s certainly not comfort. I don’t think it’s something I really desire. I desire in my day-to-day life purpose. I desire feeling as if I’m making headway — if there is a seven-generations kind of timeline — and making the next generation’s work a bit easier.
Senator Tannas: What is your ancestral community and the people that remain there? Do you have a connection to them and how does that work?
Ms. Cardinal: Yes, I do have family in Sucker Creek, and I try to keep in touch as much as I can. I actually recently went back this winter. I was doing some consultation work. I went up and I was able to speak with a lot of elders there and kind of go back to places that my dad had stories about and be able to look at them now and, “That’s not what I expected,” and get a lay of the land as an adult.
Especially as I was growing up, because of my experience in the city, I’d imbued that place as not negative but a place of fear, because it was something symbolic for me of my otherness in the city, but I also didn’t belong there. So that was a real struggle. There was some tension there when I was growing up. Now that I have an ability to contextualize that properly, I have an ability to go back and not just see what I was afraid to see of what other people saw, being terrified that’s what other people saw of me, but seeing strength and stories and history and feeling like I’m digging my feet into the earth there and feeling like that, okay, I feel rooted.
So, I don’t go back as much as I’d like, but as far as I have gleaned from stories of my family, we were incredibly mobile people. Travel is certainly part of our tradition. I think as well from the tradition of my family, going out and exploring and making relationships and seeing what there is to see is very much a part of my family’s story.
Senator Tannas: I’m not Indigenous. I’m a Canadian. I’m a person who has keen interest in seeing that we get to the place that we ought to be together. But you are the future. You are somebody that I hope there are hundreds of thousands of youth 25 years from now that have equality of opportunity and are bringing it and winning, that are connected to their ancestral community, connected to their culture, able to walk the streets of a major city. I’m in awe. I feel honoured to be an old person getting to be with somebody who is clearly decades ahead. So let me ask you some mundane questions.
When we get down to the reconciliation, the recognition, which we’ve heard so much about, Canadians have to recognize and understand what the truth is about what’s happened, because we’re a bunch of ignoramuses when it comes to this, honestly, and I’m the chief ignoramus. But at some point, practical programs will need to be delivered as part of the whole process. I wonder if you have any opinions on individual rights and entitlements versus collective rights and entitlements.
Let me ask a question. Your kid’s education: If it came down and was determined that as part of reconciliation and making sure that everything goes right, twice as much money would be spent on Indigenous children in education than the average child in a province, would you like that to be given to your community government in Sucker Creek, and for them to find you and figure out where you want that? Or would you rather have that attached to you and to your child, regardless of where you are in the country? That’s a question. The same with health, with culture, with shelter and housing and with resource royalties — all of these entitlements that will flow when we get this right, to try to get everybody caught up and to have a lasting recognition that has financial pieces to it.
How do you see your relationship and the relationship with an Indigenous government? You talked about it. Is that where you want it to flow? You’re an urban person. I’m looking for guidance. Can you give me a reaction to some of those things?
Ms. Cardinal: I mean, okay, I definitely studied biology and technology in school, because that sounds well above my pay grade.
One thing I usually like to say is my dad makes this joke: What do you call a crow that lives in the city? A crow.
You’re not an urban Indigenous person; you’re an Indigenous person. I like to laugh about that when it comes to thinking about this kind of stuff, because I think that kind of division is not necessary in terms of identity. That’s something I try to notice when it comes up.
I’m not sure; I’m really not sure. I think what feels right for me is resources going to those in need and that resources that people need will look different based on the person.
I think I needed to feel not as isolated when I was growing up. I just had the one brother living with me and my parents, living in Edmonton, and I was pretty much surrounded by non-Indigenous communities. While they never outright made me feel separate intentionally, I’m sure, it was certainly something that I felt.
What I needed was specific around, again, language, connection to spirituality, and even the availability of going out on to the land and being offered this type of stuff, whereas what my cousins would have needed when they were growing up was probably very different.
I think back, and I wish I had this so much whenever I hear this. In a traditional setting, we would have elders who would basically see the youth as they come up and would be able to identify talents and needs that each individual person would have and say, “We need to make sure we do this for this person, and this person will be really good at A, B, and C. We should have them spend time with these individuals so they can pick up this skill.”
Again, I’m a little more of a systems person in that context and I like to think about how we can use Indigenous government systems to enable what we need, and I don’t think that translates very well into dollars.
I don’t know if that’s helpful, but I think that’s as much as I can see at this point.
Senator Tannas: Fair enough. Thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Jacquelyn. We have come to the end of the meeting. I would just like to say it’s been a great pleasure to have you here again. You have shared with us some incredible wisdom, which I’m sure some of us will be chewing on for many days and weeks ahead. Thank you very much for that.
(The committee adjourned.)