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CIBA - Standing Committee

Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration

Past Session: Past Session:
42-1 42nd Parliament, 1st Session (December 3, 2015 - September 11, 2019)
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Proceedings of the Standing Committee on
Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration

Minutes of Proceedings - September 5, 2019

OTTAWA, Thursday, September 5, 2019
(83)

[English]

The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration met this day at 10:30 a.m., in room C128, Senate of Canada Building, the chair, the Honourable Sabi Marwah, presiding.

Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Batters, Dalphond, Dawson, Doyle, Forest, Forest- Niesing, Galvez, Harder, P.C., Marwah, Moncion, Munson, Plett, Saint-Germain, Seidman, Smith, Tkachuk, Verner, P.C. and Wetston (18).

Also in attendance: Pascale Legault, Chief Corporate Services Officer and Clerk of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration; Catherine Piccinin, Acting Clerk of the Senate and Clerk of the Parliaments and Chief Legislative Services Officer; Philippe Hallée, Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel; senior Senate officials and other support staff.

Also present: The official reporters of the Senate.

WITNESSES:

Senate of Canada:

Julie Lacroix, Director, Corporate Security Directorate.

Pursuant to rule 12-7(1) of the Rules of the Senate, the committee continued its consideration of financial and administrative matters concerning the Senate's internal administration.

CIBA/2019-09-05/640(P)|211| — Adoption of minutes of proceedings

The committee considered the minutes of proceedings of Thursday, June 20, 2019, public portion.

The Honourable Senator Saint-Germain moved:

That the minutes of proceedings of Thursday, June 20, 2019 be adopted.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

CIBA/2019-09-05/641(P)|240| — Access to the Senate of Canada Building

The Honorable Senator Tkachuk raised concerns regarding a visitor being refused access to the Senate of Canada Building by a member of the Parliamentary Protective Service due to inappropriate attire.

Catherine Piccinin and Julie Lacroix answered questions in relation to the incident.

After debate, it was agreed that the matter be postponed to the next meeting and that, in the meantime, the Senate Administration provide further information on the incident.

CIBA/2019-09-05/642(P) |344| — Interim Resolution Process for Handling of Harassment Complaints — Clarifications

The Honourable Senator Saint-Germain moved:

That item 7 of the in camera portion of the agenda be considered in public.

After debate, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote.

YEAS

The Honourable Senators

Dalphond, Forest, Marwah, Moncion, Saint-Germain, Verner, P.C. Wetston—[7]

NAYS

The Honourable Senators

Batters, Dawson, Doyle, Munson, Plett, Seidman, Smith, Tkachuk—[8]

CIBA/2019-09-05/643(P) |372| — Tours of the Senate of Canada Building

The Honorable Senator Plett raised concerns regarding comments made by a Tour Guide during a tour of the Senate of Canada Building.

It was agreed that the Administration seek information relating to this incident from the Library of Parliament.

CIBA/2019-09-05/644(P) |202| — Report from the Senate Ethics Officer (SEO)

The Honourable Senator Verner, P.C., moved:

Whereas,

The Senate Ethics Officer stated at page 14 of this June 2019 report that: `` (...) the various parties participating in the inquiry did not have the same information available to them.''; and

That Canadians are entitled to be informed about the content of the report prepared by Quintet Consulting upon which a formal investigation has been requested in 2015.

It is moved:

That the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration allow the full disclosure of the Quintet report while protecting the identity of victims as well as any other sensitive information that could lead to their identification.

The Honourable Senator Verner, P.C., moved:

Whereas,

The claim of parliamentary privilege has damaged the public's perception of the investigation process employed by the Senate Ethics Officer, as well as the reputation of the Senate of Canada as a responsible and fair employer;

The Senate Ethics Officer stated in his report dated June 29, 2019, that having to wait for the CIBA to approve his requests and, in some cases, deny those requests while asking for further details and information about them, may result in unnecessary delays and undermined his independence (p. ii-iii, annex);

Two former members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure (steering committee) could not be interviewed by the Senate Ethics Officer during this investigation due to claims of parliamentary privilege, as stated in his report (p. 7);

The members of the CIBA must seek more detailed explanations on behalf of the victims, honourable senators and Canadians regarding what motivated members of the steering committee to invoke parliamentary privilege;

The sixth report of the Standing Committee on Ethics and Conflict of Interest for Senators (CONF) pointed out the distinction that must be made between the privileges held by the Senate as an institution and the privileges held by individual senators;

The privileges of individual senators do not override those of the institution, nor can they be asserted in any way that undermines those of the institution (p. 7);

The Senate Ethics Officer recommended that the Senate consider how to strike the right balance between ensuring that inquiries are conducted expeditiously and with all the relevant evidence required on the one hand, and claims of parliamentary privilege on the other; and

The seventh report of the CONF invited senators to reflect on the nature of parliamentary privilege and to understand its limits in relation to their activities under the Code and in their engagements with the Senate Ethics Officer (p. 47).

It is moved:

That a public meeting of the CIBA be convened at the earliest opportunity with key players on that committee and from the Senate Administration, in order to address the questions raised by this investigation and mentioned in the reports of the Senate Ethics Officer and the CONF; and

That the committee invite the following witnesses and any other person whose testimony could be relevant.

Former members of the Steering Committee:

  • The Hon. George Furey, C.R.;
  • The Hon. Leo Housakos;
  • The Hon. Larry Smith.

Office of the Ethics Senate Officer:

  • Pierre Legault;
  • Lyse Ricard.

Senate Clerks

  • Charles Robert;
  • Nicole Proulx;
  • Richard Denis.

Senate Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel:

  • Michel Patrice;
  • Jacqueline Kuehl;
  • Philippe Hallée.

Human Resources Directorate

  • Darshan Singh;
  • Reina Bernier.

At 11:00 a.m., the committee suspended.

At 11:03 a.m., the committee resumed.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Verner, P.C., moved:

That items 4 c), d) and e) of the in-camera agenda be considered in public.

After debate, it was agreed to proceed to a vote on the motion that items 4 c), d) and e) of the in-camera agenda be considered in public.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:

YEAS

The Honourable Senators

Dalphond, Forest, Moncion, Saint-Germain, Verner, P.C. Wetston—[6]

NAYS

The Honourable Senators

Batters, Dawson, Doyle, Marwah, Munson, Plett, Seidman, Smith, Tkachuk—[9]

It was agreed that the committee proceed in camera.

At 11:20 a.m., the committee resumed in camera, pursuant to rule 12-16(1).

At 11:58 a.m., the Honourable Senator Forest-Niesing replaced the Honourable Senator Forest as a member of the committee.

At 12:45 p.m., the Honourable Senator Galvez replaced the Honourable Senator Dalphond as a member of the committee.

At 1:09 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the chair.

ATTEST:

Pascale Legault

Chief Corporate Services Officer and Clerk of the Standing Committee on

Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration of the committee

Gérald Lafrenière

Recording Secretary

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