Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs, Science and Technology
Issue No. 35 - Evidence - January 31, 2018
OTTAWA, Wednesday, January 31, 2018
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, to which was referred Bill C-311, An Act to amend the Holiday Act (Remembrance Day), met this day at 4:32 p.m. to give consideration to this bill.
Senator Art Eggleton (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.
[English]
I am Art Eggleton, senator from Toronto and chair of the committee. I will ask my colleagues to introduce themselves, starting on my left.
Senator Omidvar: Senator Omidvar from Ontario.
Senator Day: Joseph Day from New Brunswick.
Senator Bernard: Wanda Thomas Bernard from Nova Scotia.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: Éric Forest from the Gulf region of Quebec.
Senator Mégie: Marie-Françoise Mégie from Montreal, Quebec.
[English]
The Chair: Senator Nancy Greene Raine from British Columbia has just arrived.
We are here today to consider Bill C-311, An Act to amend the Holidays Act (Remembrance Day).
We’re getting squeezed at both ends on this meeting. It was originally set for two hours. We’re now down to about 25 minutes because some have to go off and caucus before the vote at 5:30, and given how long it took some of you to get over here by the bus, particularly in the traffic, it’s maybe going to take more than 15 minutes to get back over to Centre Block and into the Senate Chamber. So we’re going to have to do this very quickly.
Fortunately, we only have two speakers, Colin Fraser, Member of Parliament for West Nova, who is the sponsor of the bill; and Brad White, Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion. We do have two representatives from Canadian Heritage here, Denis Racine and Marie-Lise Julien. They are both here to answer any questions.
In the next 25 minutes, we have to get through two sets of remarks and any questions you may have, and then we have to consider if we want to go to clause by clause — there is only one clause in this bill — or whether you want to leave that over to another day.
With that, let me call upon the sponsor of the bill and welcome Colin Fraser, Member of Parliament for West Nova.
Colin Fraser, Member of Parliament for West Nova, sponsor of the bill: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and senators. It is very much an honour to be with you today. I will be brief in my remarks and will certainly be happy to answer any questions you may have.
I want to thank, first and foremost, Senator Day for sponsoring my bill in the Senate and appreciate very much his work in bringing this forward to your committee.
I would like to thank also Wilma McNeil from Sarnia, Ontario, who is a very passionate individual on veterans’ issues. I have had the pleasure of speaking to Ms. McNeil on a number of occasions and thank and congratulate her for her 25-plus years in advocating for this change to the legislation dealing with the Holidays Act.
[Translation]
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It is a great honour to be here with you today. I am very pleased that my Bill C-311 was adopted at third reading in the House of Commons in a 205 to 76 vote, following which it was referred to your committee.
[English]
I want to thank and acknowledge the efforts of members from all parties who have brought bills similar to this one forward as private members’ bills over the years, but, for one reason or another, have not been successful.
I want to start just by highlighting some of the reasons I believe Remembrance Day is so important.
Our beautiful and peaceful country did not happen by luck. It was built steadily and dutifully by those who have gone before us, who protected and defended our liberties, values and rights and who have served our country in the Armed Forces.
November 11 is Remembrance Day, and it marks the day in 1918 when the Great War, World War I, ended. It has come to symbolize and solemnly remind us of those who have paid the supreme sacrifice in the service to our country. From Ypres and Flanders fields and Vimy Ridge in World War I, to Dieppe, Italy, Africa, Normandy and the Pacific in World War II, in Korea, peacekeeping missions, the Gulf War, Afghanistan and other conflicts, there is a continuum of bravery and dedication by our Canadian Forces.
Past, present and future, we must honour them and their sacrifice, and it is right that a grateful country appropriately pays tribute, thanks and remembers our fallen and those who serve today.
I therefore believe Remembrance Day is very important for our country and for all Canadians. I think we should be raising its profile wherever and whenever possible. We should ensure that it is being marked appropriately.
It is important to note that 2017 marked the one-hundreth anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge. This year, 2018, will mark the one hundreth anniversary of the armistice ending World War I, and next year we’ll be marking the seventy-fifth anniversary of D-Day and the Battle of Normandy in World War II. So I believe it is an especially poignant moment for the discussion about Remembrance Day in Canada.
I want to talk for a moment about the mechanics of Bill C-311, which is before you. It is, as your chair indicated, a one-clause bill. Basically, I am seeking to add the word “legal” in the section of the Holidays Act pertaining to Remembrance Day. The Holidays Act deals with three specific days: Canada Day, Victoria Day and Remembrance Day. There is different language used in connection with Canada Day and Victoria Day than there is with Remembrance Day. I note that there is different language both in English and in French.
My bill seeks to add consistency of language to ensure that there is the same language being used for all of these days, with special recognition, of course, that the term “holiday,” in law, has a different meaning than perhaps what is generally used or considered a day off. I don’t see Remembrance Day as being a day of rest or a day to be on your own. It’s a day to solemnly remember those who have given for our country. But I believe that on a plain language reading of it, it’s important that the same same language be used for those days in the act. I believe that will also elevate the status of Remembrance Day in federal statute to the same as Canada Day and Victoria Day.
What this bill does: This bill is a modest measure to add consistency to the language in the federal Holidays Act and to ensure that consistency is observed. It also affirms Parliament’s commitment that November 11 is a very important day in Canada, one of solemn remembrance and reflection for those who have sacrificed for our country. I believe it shines a light on this important day, and any chance we can do that as parliamentarians is an important endeavour.
What this bill does not do: It does not make a national holiday. It can’t. It’s not within the purview of Parliament to do so. Statutory holidays are up to the provinces and territories to determine in their jurisdiction. I would be okay with the provinces reviewing whether they are marking Remembrance Day appropriately in their jurisdiction, but in no way does this bill change anything as far as a day off or whether school is in session in a province or territory.
It doesn’t give anyone the day off who doesn’t already have it. Federal employees already have Remembrance Day as a day off through collective agreements or through the Canada Labour Code.
Students who already have the day off school so that they’re able to mark November 11 with their family and the community will continue to have it as a day off, but it doesn’t give those who are currently supposed to be in school that day the day off.
There are two main arguments raised in opposition, and I know you will be hearing in a moment from Mr. White from the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion, and I must say I have nothing but the utmost of respect for the Royal Canadian Legion and all they do for veterans across our country. I’m proud that I have 14 legions in my riding and engage with them very often and, obviously, sought their input on this bill.
As I understand it, the Royal Canadian Legion has some difficulty with this, first, because they believe that children should be in school on November 11, but this bill doesn’t change anything about school because that’s up to the provinces. Second, as I understand it, the legion is worried it would become just another day off.
But in jurisdictions where this is a statutory day, we see nothing but rising attendances at Remembrance Day services. Certainly, in my home province of Nova Scotia, that is the case.
We have also seen the ability for veterans going into schools in the days leading up to Remembrance Day in order to bring attention to the importance of November 11, but also to encourage them to attend at their local cenotaph, if they have the day off, to share the collective experience with the community and their families.
I also want to thank ANAVETS for the brief it has submitted to your committee, Mr. Chair. Their position is that November 11 should be considered as time off, which, of course, this bill doesn’t do, but they support my bill because they believe that it does draw attention to the importance of the day.
I have also circulated transcripts from the House of Commons committee that studied this, where there’s evidence from Wilma McNeill, Dave Geddes and John FitzGerald if you’re interested in reading what they had to say in support of this bill.
In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I believe this is a reasonable bill. It is modest in what it does. The fact that it adds consistency in language and affirms Parliament’s commitment to ensure this very important day of reflection and gives thanks to our fallen is giving it its due respect.
With that, I am happy to answer any questions.
Brad White, Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion: Thank you for the opportunity to represent the Royal Canadian Legion and to discuss our position on Bill C-311 with you today.
The Legion’s position, as determined by our membership through our national convention resolution process, is that November 11 should not be a legal or statutory holiday. This is our national policy, which is voted on by our delegates in a very democratic method.
I will cut my remarks very short today as we want to have a bit more time.
Every day, the Legion inspires Canadians to remember those who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country and to honour those who have served and continue to serve today. Remembrance Day is a day for all Canadians to remember the men and women who served in sacrifice for our country. It is a day we encourage every individual, young and old, to pause to give thanks and to remember.
The Legion recognizes that some would like to see Remembrance Day as a holiday as it would allow working Canadians and students to attend community Remembrance Day ceremonies. We also recognize that some feel that making the day a holiday creates national significance for the fallen.
While we appreciate that many would take this opportunity to attend a Remembrance Day ceremony to honour Canada’s veterans, we do not feel that making the day a holiday will achieve the ultimate goal of perpetuation of remembrance or of drawing importance to the day.
Thank you for permitting me to make this abbreviated statement. I welcome your questions.
The Chair: Thank you. Your brevity is most welcome.
Let’s get into questions now. I have three people on the list and as is our custom, we’ll start with the Senate sponsor of the bill. Could we have brief, to-the-point questions, everyone, given the time? We want to get out of here in 15 minutes.
Senator Day: Gentlemen, welcome and thank you for being here. We haven’t heard from Mr. Racine or Ms. Julien but you have heard the comments. Do you have any comment to make on anything that has been said thus far?
Denis Racine, Director General, Major Events, Commemorations and Capital Experience, Canadian Heritage: No.
Senator Day: We thank you for being here.
Mr. Fraser, thank you for your initiative in this particular bill. Just for our colleagues, the bill was started in the House of Commons. You initiated this in that house. It has passed through all the tests and hurdles in the House of Commons and has been passed there; is that correct?
Mr. Fraser: Yes. It passed in June 2017 by a vote of 205 to 76.
Senator Day: The vote was 205 to 76 in the House of Commons. Our wonderful parliamentary process requires that before something can become law, it has to pass both houses. So you’re now in the Senate with a House of Commons-initiated bill saying, “Please consider this bill.”
Mr. Fraser: That’s correct.
Senator Day: Did you make some amendments in the House of Commons, or did it go through without amendments?
Mr. Fraser: The bill, as originally introduced, had three clauses to it. Clauses 2 and 3 were deleted at the committee stage at my suggestion and recommendation after further consultation with the department and thinking about how I could improve the bill. So the bill before you right now is just the one clause following the amendment at committee and then support in the House of Commons on third reading vote.
Senator Day: And there are some semantics that get involved here. The word “holiday” conjures up different things for different people. Some of us think of packing up the Volvo and heading off on a summer vacation as a holiday, and it is, but this is much more restricted. The Holidays Act is what you’re seeking to amend, because that’s where Remembrance Day appears; is that correct?
Mr. Fraser: That’s correct. The Holidays Act is where, in federal legislation, the three days are given significance: Canada Day, Victoria Day and Remembrance Day. And the clause for Remembrance Day has different wording. It does not use the word “legal” in English, and it uses the words jours fériés in French, which is different than the wording for the other two days.
On a plain language reading of it, I would argue that it does not seem to have the same elevated status that Canada Day or Victoria Day have because of the different wording. Therefore, I think we should fix that. I believe it may well have been a drafting error when it was originally done, but I think not only would adding the consistency of language improve that act, but it offers Parliament a chance to affirm its position that this is a very important day in Canada and all Canadians should pay proper respect.
The Chair: Senator Day, I’m sorry, I’m going to have to move on.
Senator Day: Maybe on round two, if we have a chance.
The Chair: I have four people that want to ask questions and I’m going to have to, given the time and the fact that most of these people have a caucus coming up, invoke the one-question rule.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: My question is linguistic in nature. The term “legal holiday” refers to a federal measure. Do provinces also have to use the term “legal holiday”? In French, we use the term “férié,” but people are not supposed to work on those days. Is that also the case with a legal holiday? Do both terms have the same meaning? On a legal holiday, are stores and post offices closed, for instance?
Mr. Fraser: The Parliament of Canada legislates holidays in the provinces. That is a constitutional matter. To my mind, it is important to use the same words in French and in English, and also in the various provisions of the bill.
[English]
Senator Omidvar: Very briefly, Mr. White, this is a question for you. Thank you all for being here.
If Mr. Fraser’s bill, as it is presented to us, does nothing more than bring consistency in language to the three days, nothing will change. Children will go to school. So why are you precisely against this bill?
Mr. White: We had a lot of consultations and when this bill came up in the previous iteration, we had a large school board from Toronto that was allied with us in stating that they did not support making this day a holiday.
[Translation]
In 2008, the City of Ottawa passed a historic by-law requiring stores to remain closed until 12:30 p.m. on Remembrance Day.
[English]
When you have to make secondary laws to ensure that stores remain closed and people are not going to work, this compounds the issue as we’re going through. I have been in the schools when I was in the service, at my children’s schools and talking about Remembrance Day and how it impacts the military and our families, and I think that’s important that that happens.
We’ve seen, yes, in some cases there are more crowds. There have been more crowds at Remembrance Day since 2001 than in previous years. I think that’s an outgrowth of communities’ understanding that those men and women who have gone to sacrifice came from their communities and they know them now, so it becomes more personal to them.
I don’t see the crowds in Ottawa. They’re always about the same, whether it’s public servants who are there or aren’t there. Our concern is that Remembrance Day is already known as the commencement of shopping for Christmas and if you make it into a holiday, it just gets worse.
Senator Raine: Could you tell me what the clauses that were deleted — clause 2 and clause 3 — were?
Mr. Fraser: Yes. They were clauses 2 and 3 — I can’t remember which order they were in — and one of them dealt with the Canadian flag over the Peace Tower flown at half-mast on November 11. That caused problems because, for example, if the Queen were in Ottawa that day, then the protocol is, of course, that her standard would fly over the Peace Tower. So there were some legitimate concerns about putting that into law, something dealing with protocol. I accepted that and suggested to the committee that that be removed.
The other one was if November 11 fell on a weekend whether the following Monday would be considered the legal holiday, which happens, but in practice, in federal employee labour codes and agreements. But I don’t think that’s correct. I think Remembrance Day should always be November 11. It is always marked on November 11, regardless of whether or not it is on a weekend. I suggested to the committee that that be removed as well.
[Translation]
Senator Forest: My question is for Mr. White. In your document, you say that, since November 11, branches of the Royal Canadian Legion across the country and elsewhere hold Remembrance Day ceremonies in their communities to mark this solemn and sacred day. November 11 is very important to you and you conclude that making this day a holiday would achieve the ultimate purpose of permanent commemoration. I do not follow your logic. You say it is a solemn and sacred day and that officially declaring it a holiday would not further that objective.
[English]
Mr. White: I think the issue becomes what significance does making the day a holiday add to the significance of remembrance? I can’t make the logical translation myself that by naming that day as part of the Holidays Act, why does it all of a sudden make the day significant? The day already is significant. Why do we need something more on the books that says this is a significant day when it already is?
We’ve advocated. We conduct the ceremony. We conduct the national ceremony on behalf of the country. Legion branches across their communities are totally immersed in producing that ceremony. The organization provides all the wreaths for the members of Parliament to lay in their constituencies on November 11.
We just don’t see how naming this as a statutory holiday in the Holidays Act adds any other significance to the day when it’s a day of remembrance. It’s here. It’s not by saying it’s a holiday. It’s here. It’s what we lived. It’s what we lived in the military. It’s what we remember from our time in the military.
I remember when I was on parade, I remember my grandfather who was a Dieppe veteran. I remember his buddies. Today those young people on parade remember those who were standing with them not too long ago and who are not there anymore. I think that is the significance. I don’t think it needs to be a holiday to be significant.
The Chair: We do have a little bit of time for a second round, but I want to point out that we have Heritage Canada here if you have any questions for them. But we also have a written statement from Veterans Affairs Canada that is saying — it’s in the package. You should have it there. They are in effect saying elevating the status, reflecting on the dedication and honouring all those who have served the country is a good idea. They’re saying it constitutes a symbolic and important gesture in support of remembrance. I wanted to bring that to your attention.
Senator Day: I have more of a comment than a question. That is, we should go on record as recognizing the tremendous work that the Royal Canadian Legion does. I know Mr. Fraser has done so, and Mr. White knows my dedication to our veterans and to Remembrance Day.
The difficulty, as I see it, is that people conjure up other things, a much broader, wider aspect of the day when it’s under the Holidays Act, but that is where it is. That’s the terminology. We’re not trying to change the name of the act. That’s there.
But within the Holidays Act, Remembrance Day, as I understand it looking at the current statute, has a lesser adjective attached to it than the others for some reason and there seems to be no explanation for that. Am I correct on that?
Mr. Fraser: Yes, senator. My understanding as well is that if you look at the act, it does not have the same language, being a legal holiday for Canada Day, Victoria Day and Remembrance Day. Remembrance Day is just a holiday. So it’s already recognized in federal statute. It’s not as if we’re changing that. And it’s up to the provinces and territories to decide if it is a statutory holiday, meaning a day off.
That doesn’t legally affect the condition of it being a statutory holiday or not, but it adds consistency of language. And I think it is correcting a drafting error that was likely made when the Holidays Act was originally brought into force.
Senator Day: Mr. White, do you understand that to be the case? That this is not creating a day off?
The Chair: I have one question per person. I’m still trying to get in some others.
[Translation]
Senator Mégie: In comparing the two presentations, Mr. White, you said that calling it a “legal holiday” will not change anything. Are you not afraid though that it might be forgotten? Perhaps not. Future generations might say, “It was my grandfather, my great-grandfather, who knows . . . ” I am not sure; I am asking the question.
[English]
Mr. White: Again, if I may respond in English, I don’t think Remembrance Day will ever lose its significance to anyone, because we are citizen soldiers in this country. We have a very rich military history in this country. We have fought on the side of right for many years. The sacrifices that our people make are the joys that we have today. Those are the things that we live today.
Remembrance Day will never be over. I remember, as I did 23 years in the military, and I remember every time on parade I was thinking about yes, my grandfather. It didn’t make it any less significant to think it was my grandfather.
But it was also about the people who were with me who may have passed away in service. Nowadays, it takes on more of a close connotation because the young men and women of today, they’ve lost their comrades. They’ve lost their friends who used to be with them. It’s more real. It’s also more real to communities today because a lot of the 25 per cent of those people who went to Afghanistan were from small communities and reserve units.
So they were taken out of their communities and shipped overseas. Now they’ve gone back to their communities, and it is more real for the community because they actually have a veteran, and it’s a young veteran. So we’ll never lose the significance of the day, and the relevancy of the day either.
Senator Omidvar: Your arguments resonate with me, Mr. White, but I’m still having trouble understanding that if the act changes nothing but put the word “legal” in front of it, nothing else changes, it seems to me your quibble is with the original act. You would prefer to have Remembrance Day taken out of the Holidays Act completely, but this changes nothing. So I’m having a bit of a hard time. Please help me out here.
Mr. White: I guess the quibble becomes, in your terms, when the provinces are given the option to make it a day off or not a day off, and that opens the door.
Senator Omidvar: Thank you. I get it.
The Chair: Colleagues, it is now a little bit after 5 o’clock. Normally, we would not proceed to clause by clause on the same day we have the hearings. This is a small bill, however, with one clause.
I want you to be comfortable on this issue, so I’m asking you whether you wish to proceed at this point in time with clause-by-clause consideration or whether you want to leave it over for another day, as is the normal way that we do things.
Senator Raine: I want a clarification based on the last comment.
If it is a legal holiday in the Holidays Act, does it make it easier for provinces to give people a day off?
Mr. Fraser: Chair, if I may.
No. Constitutionally it is up to the provinces and territories to determine what statutory holidays exist in their legislation, so changing the consistency in this act will have nothing to do with making a statutory holiday easier or not in any province or territory in the country.
The Chair: Let me clarify something here. What I understand you’re trying to do in the Holidays Act is make it equivalent to Victoria Day or Canada Day in terms of the terminology; is that correct? Is Victoria Day not the whole country?
Mr. Fraser: There are four provinces that don’t have Victoria Day as a statutory holiday.
The Chair: Canada Day is the entire country, but was that put into effect by the provinces?
Mr. Fraser: Yes.
The Chair: All right. So the whole point here is if you put it on an equalized basis, you then have an argument with the provinces, you can then go to the provinces and say, okay, the federal government recognizes it as an equivalent, and are you willing now to make it a day off for people? Which, of course, brings in the argument from the Legion saying they like the idea that people get the education in our schools, or whatever other way of understanding, and I thought Mr. White was quite eloquent in the way he was presenting it about something being in the heart. Anyway, that’s the basic balance of the arguments.
Mr. Fraser: Mr. Chair, may I very briefly mention one thing.
There are four provinces that do not have it as a statutory holiday: Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and Manitoba. Nova Scotia and Manitoba have other legislation other than just their regular Holidays Act that make it a day off. So it’s Ontario and Quebec and the Northwest Territories that do not.
Senator Day: I propose that we proceed with clause by clause at this time.
The Chair: Do members feel comfortable proceeding with clause by clause?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: We’ll proceed with clause by clause at this time.
The formal question is: Is it agreed by the committee to proceed with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-311, An Act to amend the Holidays Act (Remembrance Day)?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Shall the title stand postponed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall clause 1, which I guess is the only clause, carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the title carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Shall the bill — there’s no amendment — carry?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
Does the committee wish to consider appending observations to the report?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chair: Is it agreed that I report this bill, without observations and without amendments, to the Senate?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Agreed.
It is done.
Congratulations, Mr. Fraser, this bill is now to be submitted to the Senate for third reading.
(The committee adjourned.)