Journals of the Senate
46 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1997, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 29
Wednesday, December 10, 1997
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Bonnell, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Doyle, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Forrestall, Gauthier, Ghitter,, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Haidasz, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Jessiman, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Lavoie-Roux, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, MacDonald, Maheu, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Perrault, Petten, Phillips, Pitfield, Poulin, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Sparrow, Spivak, Stanbury, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wood
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., presented the following:WEDNESDAY, December 10, 1997
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
EIGHTH REPORT
Your Committee has examined and approved the budgets presented to it by the following Committees for the proposed expenditures of the said Committees for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1998:Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs (Legislation):
97-12-09/071
| Professional and Special Services | $ 2,700 |
|
Transportation and Communication |
200 |
|
All Other Expenditures |
1,200 |
|
TOTAL |
$ 4,100 |
Special Committee on Post-Secondary Education:
97-12-09/072
| Professional and Special Services | $ 11,500 |
|
All Other Expenditures |
0 |
|
TOTAL |
$ 11,500 |
Respectfully submitted,
WILLIAM ROMPKEY
Chair
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Cohen presented a Bill S-11, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act in order to add social condition as a prohibited ground of discrimination.The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Cohen moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Di Nino, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading on Friday next, December 12, 1997.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Bonnell moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lewis:That, notwithstanding the order of the Senate adopted on October 8, 1997, the Special Committee of the Senate on Post-Secondary Education be authorized to present the final report of its study on the serious state of post-secondary education in Canada no later than Tuesday, December 16, 1997.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:Reply to Question No. 33, dated October 1, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Kenny, respecting the Alternative Fuels Act-National Gallery of Canada.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-301S.
Reply to Question No. 78, dated October 23, 1997, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Spivak, respecting a Multilateral Agreement on Investment through the OECD.-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-302S.
MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons in the following words:-Friday, December 5, 1997
ORDERED, That a Message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that Mmes. Bakopanos and Bennett, Mr. Bertrand, Mrs. Finestone, Messrs. Forseth, Gallaway and Harvard, Mmes. Karetak-Lindell and Longfield, Messrs. Lowther and Lunn, Mmes. St-Hilaire and St-Jacques, Messrs. Mancini, Marceau and Paradis have been appointed to serve on behalf of this House on the Special Joint Committee on Child Custody and Access.
ATTEST
ROBERT MARLEAU,
The Clerk of the House of Commons
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Third reading of Bill C-7, An Act to establish the Saguenay-St. Lawrence Marine Park and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.The Honourable Senator Butts moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Taylor, that the Bill be read the third time.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.
Third reading of Bill C-10, An Act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdom of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and to amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Petten, that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.The Bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Grafstein tabled the following:Letter from the Minister of Finance to the Chairman of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, with respect to Bill C-10. (English text)-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-303S.
Ordered, That the above-mentioned document be printed as an Appendix to the Journals of the Senate of this day and form part of the permanent records of this House.
(See Appendix at pages 341-342)
_______________________________________________
The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that a communication had been received from the Secretary to the Governor General.The Communication was then read by the Honourable the Speaker as follows:
RIDEAU HALL
December 10, 1997Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Antonio Lamer, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his capacity as Deputy Governor General, will proceed to the
Senate Chamber today, the 10th day of December, 1997, at 4:00 p.m. for the purpose of giving Royal Assent to certain Bills.
Yours sincerely,
Judith A. LaRocque
Secretary to the Governor General
The HonourableThe Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
______________________________________________
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kirby, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-2, An Act to establish the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board and to amend the Canada Pension Plan and the Old Age Security Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.After debate,
The Honourable Senator Spivak moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cohen, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
_________________________________________________
A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the Notice of Motion given by the Honourable Senator Carstairs pursuant to Rule 39(1) respecting Bill C-2.Debate.
Pursuant to Rule 135(8), the proceedings were interrupted to resume after Royal Assent.ROYAL ASSENT
The Senate adjourned during pleasure to await the arrival of the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General. After awhile, the Right Honourable Antonio Lamer, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, in his capacity as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, having come and being seated at the foot of the Throne-The Honourable the Speaker commanded the Usher of the Black Rod to proceed to the House of Commons and acquaint that House that:-
"It is the desire of the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General that they attend him immediately in the Senate Chamber."
The House of Commons being come, One of the Clerks at the Table then read the titles of the Bills to be assented to as follows:An Act to establish the Saguenay - St. Lawrence Marine Park and to make a consequential amendment to another Act (Bill C-7, Chapter 37, 1997)
An Act to implement a convention between Canada and Sweden, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Lithuania, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Kazakhstan, a convention between Canada and the Republic of Iceland and a convention between Canada and the Kingdom of Denmark for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion with respect to taxes on income and to amend the Canada-Netherlands Income Tax Convention Act, 1986 and the Canada-United States Tax Convention Act, 1984 (Bill C-10, Chapter 38, 1997).
To these Bills the Royal Assent was pronounced by the Clerk of the Senate in the following words:-
"In Her Majesty's name, the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General doth assent to these Bills."
4:13 p.m.
The Commons withdrew. After which the Right Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General was pleased to retire._____________________________________________________
The Senate resumed debate on the Point of Order concerning the acceptability of the Notice of Motion given by the Honourable Senator Carstairs pursuant to Rule 39(1) respecting Bill C-2.Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
If no other honourable senator wishes to speak, I make the general observation that, indeed, much of the wording of the rules could be improved so that they are clearer. It would make life easier for the Speaker.In general, debates on rules are interesting and useful as they are a means of arriving at improvements to our rules. I agree with the general principle that the Speaker must be conscious of the rights of minorities. I am quite aware of that.
However, honourable senators are asking me now to rule on something upon which I should not be asked to rule and upon which it is an impossibility for me to rule; that is, what has been said or done in private conversations at which I was not present. One senator is stating one thing, another is stating another about conversations to which I was not and should not have been privy. It is impossible for me to rule on that matter. I must accept that the notice of motion is in order.
Whereupon the Speaker's Ruling was appealed.The question being put on whether the Speaker's Ruling shall be sustained, it was adopted on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bacon, Bonnell, Bryden, Butts, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Haidasz, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kirby, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mercier, Milne, Moore, Pearson, Perrault, Petten, Pitfield, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia) , Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Sparrow, Stanbury, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Watt-41
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, DeWare, Di Nino, Doyle, Eyton, Forrestall, Ghitter, Grimard, Gustafson, Kelleher, Kelly, Kinsella, Lavoie-Roux, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, MacDonald, Meighen, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Phillips, Roberge, Robertson, Rossiter, Spivak, Stratton, Tkachuk-35ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
Bills
The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Moore, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the second reading of Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings),And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Cools, seconded by the Honourable Senator Sparrow, that the motion be amended by deleting all the words after "That" and substituting the following therefor:
"Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings), be not now read a second time because
(a) the Senate is opposed to the principle of a bill which has been placed before Parliament as a result of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada of May 22, 1997, and of the Court's Orders of June 27 and November 19, 1997;
(b) the Senate finds it repugnant that the Supreme Court is infringing on the sovereign rights of Parliament to enact legislation and is failing to respect the constitutional comity between the courts and Parliament; and
(c) the Court is in effect coercing Parliament by threatening chaotic consequences respecting law enforcement and arrests if Parliament does not pass this bill.",And on the sub-amendment of the Honourable Senator Phillips, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wood, that the motion in amendment be amended by deleting the word "and" at the end of paragraph (b) and by adding the following after paragraph (c):
"(d) the Court, by its Order of November 19, 1997 that Bill C-16 must be enacted by December 19, 1997, is impeding proceedings in Parliament and is subordinating the Senate of Canada; and
(e) the Court is usurping the royal prerogative of the Sovereign who, with the advice and consent of Parliament, keeps and upholds the Queen's Peace and the public peace and security of all.".
___________________________________________________
SPEAKER'S RULING
Yesterday, Wednesday, December 9, during debate on the reasoned amendment moved to the second reading motion of Bill C-16, an Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings), Senator Phillips proposed a sub-amendment. At the time, I indicated that I would take this under advisement because I wanted to consider any procedural implications.As I previously indicated to the Senate, reasoned amendments have not been common in the Senate. Indeed, in the research, I find the last one to be on July 7, 1981, which was not sustained, and it referred to a previous ruling on May 8, 1946.
I have reviewed what few precedents we have with respect to reasoned amendments and I have considered procedures relating to sub-amendments. I could find no occasion in Senate practice where a reasoned amendment was amended. At the same time, however, I could find no clear authority stating that it could not be done. In fact, I am aware of recent precedents in the House of Commons where sub-amendments have been moved to reasoned amendments.As I understand it, the purpose of this sub-amendment is to add to the reasons already provided in the original motion in amendment why Bill C-16 should not be read the second time. According to Beauchesne's 6th edition, citation 580 at pages 176-177, a sub-amendment:
"...should not enlarge upon the scope of the amendment but it should deal with matters that are not covered by the amendment."Further, at citation 584 dealing with the form and content of a sub-amendment, (2) explains that:
"a sub-amendment must be relevant to the amendment it purports to amend and not to the main motion."Based on these two relevant citations, I rule that the sub-amendment is in order.
Debate can now resume.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Moore, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the second reading of Bill C-16,And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Cools,
And on the sub-amendment of the Honourable Senator Phillips.The Honourable Senator Robertson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kelleher, P.C., that further debate on the sub-amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following division:YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cogger, Cohen, Comeau, DeWare, Di Nino, Doyle, Eyton, Forrestall, Ghitter, Grimard, Gustafson, Johnson, Kelleher, Kelly, Kinsella, Lavoie-Roux, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, MacDonald, Meighen, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Phillips, Pitfield, Roberge, Robertson, Rossiter, Spivak, Stratton, Tkachuk-37NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bacon, Bonnell, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Corbin, De Bané, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Forest, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Haidasz, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kirby, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mercier, Milne, Moore , Pearson, Petten, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Stanbury, Stewart, Stollery, Taylor, Watt-38ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Cools, Sparrow-2
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Moore, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the second reading of Bill C-16,
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Cools,And on the sub-amendment of the Honourable Senator Phillips.
Debate._____________________________________________________
Pursuant to Rule 13(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8:00 p.m.The sitting resumed.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Moore, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the second reading of Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings),And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Cools, seconded by the Honourable Senator Sparrow, that the motion be amended by deleting all the words after "That" and substituting the following therefor:
"Bill C-16, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Interpretation Act (powers to arrest and enter dwellings), be not now read a second time because
(a) the Senate is opposed to the principle of a bill which has been placed before Parliament as a result of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada of May 22, 1997, and of the Court's Orders of June 27 and November 19, 1997;
(b) the Senate finds it repugnant that the Supreme Court is infringing on the sovereign rights of Parliament to enact legislation and is failing to respect the constitutional comity between the courts and Parliament; and
(c) the Court is in effect coercing Parliament by threatening chaotic consequences respecting law enforcement and arrests if Parliament does not pass this bill.",And on the sub-amendment of the Honourable Senator Phillips, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wood, that the motion in amendment be amended by deleting the word "and" at the end of paragraph (b) and by adding the following after paragraph (c):
"(d) the Court, by its Order of November 19, 1997 that Bill C-16 must be enacted by December 19, 1997, is impeding proceedings in Parliament and is subordinating the Senate of Canada; and
(e) the Court is usurping the royal prerogative of the Sovereign who, with the advice and consent of Parliament, keeps and upholds the Queen's Peace and the public peace and security of all.".After debate, The question was put on the sub-amendment. Pursuant to Rule 67(2), a recorded division was deferred until 5:30 p.m. tomorrow.
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Cools tabled the following:
Documents from the Supreme Court of Canada case Michael Feeney v. Her Majesty the Queen, including the affidavit of Yvan Roy, dated November 10, 1997. (English text)-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-304S.Ordered, That the above-mentioned documents be printed as an Appendix to the Debates of the Senate of this day.
Orders No. 6 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Motions
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercier:WHEREAS the Government of Quebec has indicated that it intends to establish French and English linguistic school boards in Quebec;
AND WHEREAS the National Assembly of Quebec has passed a resolution authorizing an amendment to the Constitution of Canada;AND WHEREAS the National Assembly of Quebec has reaffirmed the established rights of the English-speaking community of Quebec, specifically the right, in accordance with the law of Quebec, of members of that community to have their children receive their instruction in English language educational facilities that are under the management and control of that community and are financed through public funds;
AND WHEREAS section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees to citizens throughout Canada rights to minority language instruction and minority language educational facilities under the management and control of linguistic minorities and provided out of public funds;AND WHEREAS section 43 of the Constitution Act, 1982 provides that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada may be made by proclamation issued by the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada where so authorized by resolutions of the Senate and House of Commons and of the legislative assembly of each province to which the amendment applies;
NOW THEREFORE the Senate resolves that an amendment to the Constitution of Canada be authorized to be made by proclamation issued by His Excellency the Governor General under the Great Seal of Canada in accordance with the schedule hereto.SCHEDULE
AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF CANADA
CONSTITUTION ACT, 1867
1. The Constitution Act, 1867, is amended by adding, immediately after section 93, the following:"93A. Paragraphs (1) to (4) of section 93 do not apply to Quebec."
CITATION
2. This Amendment may be cited as the Constitution Amendment, (year of proclamation) (Quebec).After debate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs for the Honourable Senator Wood moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gigantès, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Consideration of the Report of the Special Joint Committee on the Amendment to Term 17 of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on December 5, 1997.The Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert, that the Report be adopted.
After debate, The Honourable Senator LeBreton for the Honourable Senator Doody moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cohen, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
___________________________________________________
Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.______________________________________________________
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Proposed regulations pursuant to the Referendum Act , S.C. 1992, c. 30, sbs. 7(6).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-300.ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stanbury:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.