Journals of the Senate
48 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1999, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 36th Parliament
Issue 8
Wednesday, November 17, 1999
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Boudreau, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kelleher, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perry (Poirier), Poulin (Charette), Poy, Rivest, Roberge, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wilson
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Boudreau, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finestone, *Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Joyal, Kelleher, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Perry (Poirier), Poulin (Charette), Poy, Rivest, Roberge, *Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wilson
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Stewart tabled the Fourth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs entitled: "Europe Revisited: Consequences of Increased European Integration For Canada".-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-138S.The Honourable Senator Stewart moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Bacon tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/36-139S):
WEDNESDAY, November 17, 1999
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104 of the Rules, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-sixth Parliament are as follows:1. With respect to its examination of legislation:
|
Professional services |
$ 35,072.77 |
|
Transportation & Communications |
18.50 |
|
Witness expenses |
7,088.79 |
|
Total |
$ 42,180.06 |
2. With respect to its special study on Canada's international competitive position in communications:
|
Professional services |
$ 180,835.49 |
|
Transportation & Communications |
59,000.47 |
|
Witness expenses |
1,614.86 |
|
Miscellaneous |
1,148.81 |
|
Total |
$ 242,599.63 |
3. With respect to its special study on transportation safety:
|
Professional services |
$ 43,362.91 |
|
Transportation |
67,494.21 |
|
Witness expenses |
$ 2,819.08 |
|
Miscellaneous . |
|
|
Total |
$ 113,676.20 |
During the session under consideration, your Committee considered nine (9) Orders of Reference, held thirty-six (36) meetings and heard from one hundred ninety (190) witnesses and submitted twelve (12) reports in relation to its work.
Your Committee examined eight bills, made eleven (11) amendments and observations to three (3) of these Bills:
Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act (maritime liability).
Bill C-17, An Act to amend the Telecommunications Act and the Teleglobe Canada Reorganization and Divestiture Act.
Bill S-2, An Act to amend the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.
Bill C-9, An Act for making the system of Canadian Ports competitive, efficient and commercially oriented, providing for the establishing of port authorities, and the divesting of certain harbours and ports, for the commercialization of the St. Lawrence Seaway and ferry services and other matters related to maritime trade and transport and amending the Pilotage Act and amending and repealing other Acts as a consequence.
Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Canada Shipping Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.
Bill S-23, An Act to amend the Carriage by Air Act to give effect to a Protocol to amend the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules Relating to International Carriage by Air and to give effect to the Convention, Supplementary to the Warsaw Convention, for the Unification of Certain Rules Relating to International Carriage by Air Performed by a Person Other than the Contracting Carrier.
Bill C-58, An Act to amend the Railway Safety Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act.
Bill C-55, An Act respecting advertising services supplied by foreign periodical publishers.The Subcommittee on Communications held nineteen (19) meetings and heard more than twenty-five (25) hours of testimony given by forty-three (43) witnesses in relation to the special study on Canada's international competitive position in communications. The Committee presented its Final Report entitled Wired to Win! - Canada's Positioning Within the World's Technological Revolution to the Senate on June 7, 1999.
Your Subcommittee travelled on a fact-finding mission to Brussels, Paris and to London from November 14 to 22, 1998.
The Subcommittee on Transport Safety and Security held eight (8) meetings and heard ten (10) hours of testimony given by eleven (11) witnesses. The Committee presented a report to the Senate on June 10, 1998.
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
The Honourable Senator Bryden tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/36-140S):WEDNESDAY, November 17, 1999
The Special Committee of the Senate on the Cape Breton Development Corporation, which was empowered by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination upon the Annual Report, Corporate Plan and progress reports of the Cape Breton Development Corporation and related matters, reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-sixth Parliament are as follows:
|
Professional services |
$ 6,989.25 |
|
Witness expenses |
12,753.13 |
|
Total |
$ 19,742.38 |
During the session, the Committee held 6 meetings and heard 11 hours of testimony, given by 20 witnesses.
The Committee was established on October 22, 1997, and presented two reports to the Senate. The First Report, adopted on November 20, 1997, requested the approval of its budget application, and the Final Report, presented on December 15, 1997, included the Findings, Conclusions and Recommendations of the Committee.
Respectfully submitted,
JOHN BRYDEN
Chair
The Honourable Senator Mercier presented the following:WEDNESDAY, November 17, 1999
The Committee of Selection has the honour to present its
FIFTH REPORT
Pursuant to Rule 85(1)(a) of the Rules of the Senate, your Committee nominates the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool as Speaker pro tempore.Respectfully submitted,
LÉONCE MERCIER
Chairman
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Mercier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
Ordered, That the Order of the Day for consideration of the Fifth Report of the Committee of Selection, presented earlier this day, be brought forward. Consideration of the Fifth Report of the Committee of Selection (nomination of Speaker pro tempore).The Honourable Senator Mercier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poulin, that the Report be adopted.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Fraser, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, for the second reading of Bill C-7, An Act to amend the Criminal Records Act and to amend another Act in consequence.After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ruck, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Ordered, That Motion No. 9 standing in the name of the Honourable Senator Stewart be brought forward. The Honourable Senator Stewart moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C.:That, notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on Thursday October 14, 1999, the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs which was authorized to examine and report upon the ramifications to Canada: 1. of the changed mandate of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and Canada's role in NATO since the demise of the Warsaw Pact, the end of the Cold War and the recent addition to membership in NATO of Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic; and 2. of peacekeeping, with particular reference to Canada's ability to participate in it under the auspices of any international body of which Canada is a member, be empowered to present its final report no later than December 15, 1999;
That the Committee retain all powers necessary to publicize the findings of the Committee contained in the final report until December 24, 1999; and
That the Committee be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit its report with the Clerk of the Senate, if the Senate is not then sitting; and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Chamber.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting. The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill:That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000, with the exception of Parliament Vote 10a and Privy Council Vote 25a.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth:
That the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages be authorized to examine the expenditures set out in Privy Council Vote 25a of the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000; and
That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore:
That the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament be authorized to examine the expenditures set out in Parliament Vote 10a of the Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2000; and
That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Commons Public Bills
Second reading of Bill C-247, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act (cumulative sentences).The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Di Nino moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gustafson, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Ordered, That the Order of the Day for consideration of the Third Report of the Committee of Selection (Speaker pro tempore), presented in the Senate on November 2, 1999, be withdrawn.Other
Orders No. 7 and 6 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting. The Order was called to resume debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Oliver, seconded by the Honourable Senator Di Nino:That the papers and evidence received and taken by the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs during its study of Bill S-17, An Act to amend the Criminal Code respecting criminal harassment and other related matters, in the First Session of the Thirty-sixth Parliament be referred to the Committee, when and if it is formed, for its present study of Bill S-6.
A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
When this issue was raised originally, I went to the precedents of the Senate. I shall try now to deal with this matter in a logical sequence.First, I wish to deal with the question concerning whether or not Senator Oliver's motion was properly before us. Senator Cools referred to rule 58(1), which requires a day's notice. However, if you go back to the Debates of the Senate for November 3, it is clear that when Senator Oliver proposed the motion he said:
...with leave of the Senate, and notwithstanding rule 58(1)...The Hon. the Speaker: Is leave granted, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Oliver's motion was quite properly before the Senate because leave had been granted.
Second, I wish to refer all honourable senators to the Rules of the Senate, Part I, "Interpretation", which states:
It is clear that our rules, practices, customs, and usages take precedence over Bourinot or Beauchesne or other such references. We first go to our rules and then we go to our practices and precedents. Two of our practices and precedents have been detailed by the Honourable Senator Kinsella. Regarding the motion by the Honourable Senator Stewart earlier today, the order of reference is clear:1. (1) In all cases not provided for in these rules, the customs, usages, forms and proceedings of either House of the Parliament of Canada shall, mutatis mutandis, be followed in the Senate or in any committee thereof.
That the papers and evidence received and taken on the subject and the work accomplished by the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs during the First Session of the Thirty-sixth Parliament be referred to the Committee;
As well, Senator Oliver, as indicated by Senator Kinsella, had indicated again on November 3, in the Debates of the Senate, page 90, that there had been a previous occasion where this was done. He refers to the Journals of the Senate on April 2, 1998, at page 584, where papers and evidence received on Bills S-10 and S-12 were referred to the committee for its study of Bill S-14. I can find other precedents if honourable senators require them. However, my understanding is that this has been a common practice in the Senate. The reason for doing it is not to force witnesses to come a second time to speak on the same subject and also not to have to do all the research a second time on a matter that has already been discussed in a Senate committee or before the Senate. That is the reason for the past practice and that is how it has evolved.
Reference was made by Senator Cools to Beauchesne. As I pointed out, our practices take precedence over Beauchesne. However, even if you read Beauchesne, paragraph 874, it does not say that they shall report to the House, it says that "they may report to the House." In my view, that does not exclude, then, the Senate from taking another practice because there is no compulsion. It does not say that if this has not been done, you cannot take another practice. Our practice has been different. I rule that it is in order for us to proceed with Senator Oliver's motion. Debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Oliver was adjourned until the next sitting in the name of the Honourable Senator Cools. Order No. 2 (inquiry) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Milne called the attention of the Senate to her recent participation, respecting the 70th anniversary of the Person's Case, at a conference on Women's Equality and Participation in Public Life in Canada and the United Kingdom on October 21 and 22, 1999, in London, England.Debate concluded. The Honourable Senator Beaudoin called the attention of the Senate to the fundamental principles of modern federalism: Federalism and Globalization, in light of the debates that have occurred at the Forum of Federations.
Debate concluded. The Honourable Senator Gill called the attention of the Senate to the situation of Aboriginal Peoples, to enable us to take stock and consider appropriate measures for the future.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Watt moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave, The Senate reverted to Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Spivak moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella:That the Senate urge the Government to establish an Office of Children's Environmental Health, an arm's-length agency to promote the protection of children from environmental hazards.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Response of the government to the Sixth Report of the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations, "SOR/82-171, Stuart-Trembleur Lake Band (Tanizul Timber Ltd.) Timber Regulations" (Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1180), tabled in the Senate on June 3, 1999.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-137S.ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and CommunicationsThe names of the Honourable Senators Adams, Christensen and Poulin substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Watt, Fairbairn and Sibbeston (November 16).
Committee of Selection
The name of the Honourable Senator Milne substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Fairbairn (November 16).