49 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2000, Canada

Journals of the Senate

2nd Session, 36th Parliament

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Issue 83

Thursday, October 19, 2000
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker

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The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Boudreau, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, DeWare, Doody, Eyton, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kennedy, Kenny, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pitfield, Poy, Prud'homme, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Squires, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe, Wilson

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Boudreau, Bryden, Callbeck, *Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, *Cordy, De Bané, DeWare, Doody, Eyton, Ferretti Barth, *Finestone, Fitzpatrick, *Fraser, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kennedy, Kenny, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, *Oliver, Pearson, Pitfield, Poy, Prud'homme, Robertson, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Squires, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe, Wilson

PRAYERS

Tribute was paid to the Honourable Senator Louis J. Robichaud, P.C. (L'Acadie-Acadia), who will retire from the Senate on October 21, 2000.

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS

Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees

The Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its Eleventh Report (Bill C-41, An Act to amend the statute law in relation to veterans' benefits) without amendment.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Wiebe moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading later this day.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Introduction and First Reading of Government Bills

A Message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-45, An Act respecting the provision of increased funding for health care services, medical equipment, health information and communications technologies, early childhood development and other social services and to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, to which they desire the concurrence of the Senate.

The Bill was read the first time.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Grafstein, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading later this day.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills

The Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., presented a Bill S-31, An Act to better assist the Senate to serve Canadians by restoring its rights, opportunities and functions.

The Bill was read the first time.

The Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Grafstein, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Honourable Senator Kinsella presented a Bill S-32, An Act to amend the Criminal Code to prohibit trafficking in persons.

The Bill was read the first time.

The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gustafson, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading on Tuesday next, October 24, 2000.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Tabling of Reports From Inter-Parliamentary Delegations

The Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., tabled the following:

Report of the parliamentary delegation from the Senate which travelled to Algiers in the People's Democratic Republic of Algeria from November 19 to 25, 1999, and to Rabat in the Kingdom of Morocco from November 25 to 29, 1999. -Sessional Paper No. 2/36-622S.

Report of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie respecting its participation at the APF Bureau meeting, held in Yaounde, Cameroon, on July 4, 2000.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-623.

Report of the Canadian Section of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie respecting its participation at the XXVIth Ordinary Session of the APF, held in Yaounde, Cameroon, from July 6 to 8, 2000.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-624

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Motions

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux:

That with respect to today's proceedings, the provisions of Rule 13(1) be suspended.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

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With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Hays tabled the following:

Letter from the Minister of Canadian Heritage to the Leader of the Government in the Senate with respect to Bill C-27, An Act respecting the national parks of Canada.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-625S.

Bills

Third reading of Bill C-14, An Act respecting an agreement with the Norway House Cree Nation for the settlement of matters arising from the flooding of land, and respecting the establishment of certain reserves in the province of Manitoba.

The Honourable Senator Chalifoux moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that the Bill be read the third time.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment. Third reading of Bill C-41, An Act to amend the statute law in relation to veterans' benefits.

The Honourable Senator Wiebe moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poy, that the Bill be read the third time.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment. Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting. Second reading of Bill C-45, An Act respecting the provision of increased funding for health care services, medical equipment, health information and communications technologies, early childhood development and other social services and to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act.

The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kennedy, that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kennedy, that the Bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole presently.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

The Senate was accordingly adjourned during pleasure and put into a Committee of the Whole on the Bill C-45, An Act respecting the provision of increased funding for health care services, medical equipment, health information and communications technologies, early childhood development and other social services and to amend the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool in the Chair.

-In the Committee-

Pursuant to Rule 21, the Honourable Jim Peterson, P.C., M.P., Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions), was escorted to a seat in the Senate Chamber.

Debate. The title of the Bill was read and postponed.

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The preamble to the Bill, was read and postponed.

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Clause 1, the short title of the Bill, was read and postponed.

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Clauses 2 to 6 of the Bill were read.

The question of concurrence being put on Clauses 2 to 6 of the Bill, it was adopted.

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Clause 1, the short title of the Bill, was again read.

The question of concurrence being put on Clause 1, the short title of the Bill, it was adopted.

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The preamble to the Bill, was again read.

The question of concurrence being put on the preamble to the Bill, it was adopted.

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The title of the Bill was again read.

The question of concurrence being put on the title of the Bill, it was adopted.

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The sitting of the Senate resumed. The Chair of the Committee stated that the Committee had examined Bill C-45 and had directed her to report the same to the Senate, without amendment.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Callbeck moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kennedy, that the Bill be read the third time now.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

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At 7:50 p.m. the sitting was suspended. At 8:15 p.m. the sitting resumed.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Private Bills

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Reports of Committees

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Kenny, for the adoption of the Tenth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (amendment to Rule 94) presented in the Senate on October 16, 2000.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the adoption of the Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (amendment to Rule 86), presented in the Senate on June 22, 2000.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that the Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders be amended by:

(1) deleting paragraph "r" relating to a Senate Committee on Defence and Security; and by

(2) deleting the word "generally" in the last sentence of paragraph "s" and replacing it with:

"but with particular reference to economic, social and cultural rights".

Debate.

A Point of Order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion in amendment.

After debate, The Speaker reserved his decision. The sitting was suspended. The sitting resumed.

SPEAKER'S RULING

As honourable senators know, the practices of our house determine what our orders are to be. It is true that we refer to the authorities when our practices are not clear, but essentially our practices supersede the authorities.

I might add that the authorities themselves are not always very clear. There is a reference made to Beauchesne, and it is true that Beauchesne says a report from a committee may not be amended in a substantive manner by the house. On the other hand, if one goes back one page, to paragraph 889(2), it states that "A report may be adopted in total or in part."

Obviously, if honourable senators are to adopt a report in part, then you must amend it to get to that part. Beauchesne, to say the least, takes a vague stance.

I refer back to our own references now. This is why I delayed my ruling. I wanted to be sure to check our own practices. I will read to honourable senators from the May 9, 1995, Journals of the Senate:

Resuming the debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Hastings, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stanbury, for the adoption of the Twenty-second Report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (reprint of Volume I of the Report of the Special Joint Committee Reviewing Canada's Foreign Policy), presented in the Senate on March 30, 1995.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Di Nino moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton:

That the report be not now adopted but that it be amended by adding the following words at the end of the second paragraph, after the figure "$7,500":

...provided that the costs of reprinting the report are shared on a 30-70 per cent basis with the House of Commons.

A point of order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion in amendment.

After debate, The Hon. the Speaker declared the motion in amendment in order.

That was accepted by the Senate.

Coming to somewhat more recent times, April 15, 1999:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kelly, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, for the adoption of the Report of the Special Committee of the Senate on Security and Intelligence, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on January 14, 1999,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Report be not now adopted but it be amended by deleting recommendation No. 33; and

That recommendation No. 33 be referred to the Standing Committee on Privileges...

More recently still, from the Journals of the Senate on April 7, 2000:

Consideration of the Seventh Report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration... presented in the Senate on April 4, 2000.

The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, that the Report be adopted.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Report be amended by deleting the amount of $2,630 allocated to the Social Affair's Subcommittee to update "Of Life and Death" and substituting therefor the amount $7,890.

After debate, The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was adopted.

We have three clear precedents that we did indeed accept amendments to committee reports. Therefore, I must accept that the amendment is in order. The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the adoption of the Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (amendment to Rule 86), presented in the Senate on June 22, 2000,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that the Eighth Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders be amended by:

(1) deleting paragraph "r" relating to a Senate Committee on Defence and Security; and by

(2) deleting the word "generally" in the last sentence of paragraph "s" and replacing it with:

"but with particular reference to economic, social and cultural rights".

The question being put on the motion in amendment, Pursuant to Rule 67(2), a recorded division was deferred until 5:30 p.m. tomorrow.

A Point of Order was raised concerning the request for a deferred division.

Debate.

SPEAKER'S RULING

The word "request" implies that something is being asked for; however, that something may not necessarily be received. Before I proceed along that line, I wish to say to honourable senators that the role of the Speaker is not to take into consideration whether there is a unanimous report, whether there are extraneous outside considerations, or whether there might be an election called on Sunday, or anything of that nature. The Speaker's role is to interpret the rules, not to take extraneous matters into consideration. It is incumbent upon the Speaker to ask: What do the rules say, and what do the precedents say?

Let us come back to the request. Honourable senators will find that the word "request" appears in other places in our rules. For example, rule 65(3) reads as follows:

65(3) Upon the request of two Senators before the Senate takes up other business, the Speaker shall call for a standing vote...

That is a request by two senators. It is never challenged. I do not believe it could be challenged. If two senators rise, we call a standing vote. It is automatic.

We have searched the precedents. There is not a single instance where the request of a whip on either side has not been accepted. It has been accepted. The precedent in this place, frankly, is that this is the procedure. I am sorry, but I can only rule that a request is mandatory.

The question is on the deferred vote. It will be held at 5:30 p.m. on the next sitting day. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Stollery, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bolduc, for the adoption of the Seventh Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs entitled: "The New NATO and the Evolution of Peacekeeping: Implications for Canada", tabled in the Senate on April 5, 2000.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Order No. 4 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Taylor, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt:

That the Senate of Canada views with grave concern the increasingly frequent practice of the House of Commons to debate and pass legislation which ignores the constitutional role of the Senate, the rights of our aboriginal peoples and official minority language groups;

That the Senate will continue to maintain its legitimate constitutional status by amending any bill that fails to recognize the constitutional roles enjoyed by both Houses of Parliament; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Christensen, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., calling the attention of the Senate to concerns expressed by Canadians in the Western and Territorial region that he represents, with regard to the need for fundamental and far reaching reform of Canada's Parliamentary Institutions: the Senate of Canada and the House of Commons, namely that:

a diverse, federal country needs an effective, useful and viable Upper House to represent provincial and regional interests and as such, reform of the Senate needs to:

(a) focus attention on defining the purpose of the Senate, consequently giving the Senate the legitimacy which it deserves to be an active participant in the legislative process;

(b) define the role which a revised Senate might take at a national level and the powers which would be appropriate for it to exercise in harmony with the House of Commons;

(c) give standing committees a more effective position of governing in the Senate, more particularly, in relation to the task of reviewing the nomination of federally appointed judges;

(d) determine the length of term of office;

(e) determine an alternate means by which to select members of the Senate;

(f) determine the nature of its regional representation, particularly a desire to see each province finally receive the numerical representation it deserves in the Senate of Canada; and that

there needs to be reform of the House of Commons to:

(a) make it more democratic and accountable;

(b) give all Members the freedom to be part of the policy making process. MPs need the ability to voice and promote the concerns of their constituents - to truly represent their people;

(c) determine recommendations addressing democratic accountability which could be through such measures as (1) having free votes; (2) giving standing committees legitimate authority to exercise thorough examination of government policies; legislative proposals; fiscal measures and, providing parliamentarians with a forum and mechanism to introduce legitimate concerns and ideas of Canadians.

Debate concluded. Orders No. 17, 6 and 14 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Poulin calling the attention of the Senate to the decision of the Ontario Government not to adopt a recommendation to declare the proposed restructured City of Ottawa a bilingual region.

Debate concluded.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter:

That the Senate reconfirm its support for Senator Gauthier's motion "That, in the opinion of the Senate of Canada, Ottawa, Canada's capital city, should be officially bilingual", which was unanimously adopted by the Senate on December 16, 1999.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Order No. 57 (motion) was called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Carstairs calling the attention of the Senate to the Eighth Annual Meeting of the Asia-Pacific Parliamentary Forum, held in Canberra, Australia, from January 9 to 14, 2000.

Debate concluded.

With leave, The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C.:

That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, October 20, 2000, at 10:30 a.m.;

That after the prayers are read, if a letter is received from Government House with respect to Royal Assent, the letter shall be read forthwith; after which the Senate will adjourn at pleasure to reassemble at the call of the Chair at approximately 12 noon;

That at 12 noon the bells will ring for 30 minutes; and

That after Royal Assent is given to certain bills, the Senate will resume its sitting and all matters on the Orders of the Day and on the Notice Paper shall retain their position; after which the Senate will adjourn and no further business will be done.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):

Report of the State of Protected Heritage Areas for the year 1999, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, s. 31.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-618.

Report of the Cape Breton Development Corporation on the administration of the Alternative Fuels Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2000, pursuant to the Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s.8.-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-619.

Report of the British Columbia Treaty Commission for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2000, pursuant to the British Columbia Treaty Commission Act, S.C. 1995, c. 45, sbs. 21(3). -Sessional Paper No. 2/36-620.

Report of the Canadian Polar Commission, together with the Auditor General's report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2000, pursuant to the Canadian Polar Commission Act, S.C. 1991, c. 6, sbs. 21(2).-Sessional Paper No. 2/36-621.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C.:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

(Accordingly, at 10:20 p.m. the Senate was continued until 10:30 a.m. tomorrow.)

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration

The names of the Honourable Senators Bacon and Cook substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Maheu and Poulin (October 18).

Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology

The name of the Honourable Senator Fairbairn substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Wiebe (October 19).

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