Journals of the Senate
50 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2002, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 86
Tuesday, February 5, 2002
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Austin, Bacon, Beaudoin, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Duhamel, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sparrow, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt, Wilson
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, *Atkins, Austin, Bacon, *Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, *Cordy, *Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Duhamel, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, *Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, *Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, *Meighen, Milne, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sparrow, St. Germain, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt, *Wiebe, Wilson
PRAYERS
INTRODUCTION OF SENATORS
The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the Clerk of the Senate had received a certificate from the Registrar General of Canada showing that the Honourable Ronald J. Duhamel, P.C., had been summoned to the Senate.
The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that there was a Senator without waiting to be introduced.
The Honourable Senator Duhamel, P.C., was introduced between the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., and the Honourable Senator Kroft, and having presented Her Majesty's Writ of Summons it was read by one of the Clerks at the Table as follows:—
CANADA
Adrienne Clarkson
(G.S.)
ELIZABETH THE SECOND, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories QUEEN, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
TO
Our Trusty and Well-beloved
The Honourable
RONALD J. DUHAMEL
A Member of Our Privy Council for Canada,
Of Winnipeg, in the Province of Manitoba,
GREETING:
KNOW YOU, that as well for the especial trust and confidence We have manifested in you, as for the purpose of obtaining your advice and assistance in all weighty and arduous affairs which may the State and Defence of Canada concern, We have thought fit to summon you to the Senate of Canada.
AND WE do command you that all difficulties and excuses whatsoever laying aside, you be and appear, for the purposes aforesaid, in the Senate of Canada at all times whensoever and wheresoever Our Parliament may be in Canada convoked and holden, and this you are in no wise to omit.
IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed.
WITNESS:
Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Adrienne Clarkson, Chancellor and Principal Companion of Our Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of Our Order of Military Merit, Governor General and Commander-in- Chief of Canada.
AT OUR GOVERNMENT HOUSE, in Our City of Ottawa, this fifteenth day of January, in the year of Our Lord two thousand and two and in the fiftieth year of Our Reign.
BY COMMAND,
DAVID COLLENETTE
Acting Registrar General of Canada
The Honourable Senator Duhamel, P.C., came to the Table and took and subscribed the Oath prescribed by law, which was administered by the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed for that purpose, and took his seat as a Member of the Senate.
The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the Honourable Senator Duhamel, P.C., had made and subscribed the Declaration of Property Qualification required of him by the Constitution Act 1867, in the presence of the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed to receive and witness same.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Kirby tabled the following:
Letter dated December 11, 2001, from the Leader of the Government in the Senate and Minister with Special Responsibility for Palliative Care, and the Minister of Health to the Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, concerning palliative care in Canada. —Sessional Paper No. 1/37-619S.
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, informed the Senate that, pursuant to an Order adopted by the Senate on March 1, 2001, he had deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on January 29, 2002, the Fifteenth Report (Interim) of the said Committee entitled: Volume Two — Current Trends and Future Challenges.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-611S.
The Honourable Senator Kirby, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, informed the Senate that, pursuant to an Order adopted by the Senate on March 1, 2001, he had deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on January 29, 2002, the Sixteenth Report (Interim) of the said Committee entitled: Volume Three — Health Care Systems in Other Countries.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-612S.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable Senator Maheu tabled the following:
Tenth Report of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association respecting its participation at the Meeting of the Sub-Committee on the Future Security and Defence Capabilities of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, held in Romania and Bulgaria, from December 9 to 13, 2001.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-620.
MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons to return Bill C-7, An Act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other Acts,
And to acquaint the Senate that the Commons have agreed to the amendment made by the Senate to this Bill, without amendment.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Banks, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, for the second reading of Bill C-10, An Act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Second reading of Bill C-23, An Act to amend the Competition Act and the Competition Tribunal Act.
The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poy, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Lynch-Staunton, raised a point of order to object to certain procedures that had been followed in relation to Bill C-44, which amended the Aeronautics Act. The substance of the Senator's complaint had to do with the fact that the Department of Transport of Canada seemed to anticipate a decision of the Senate with respect to the second reading of this bill, and did not prepare its documents adequately.
In making his case, Senator Lynch-Staunton noted that the briefing material on the bill had not been written to reflect the fact that it was to be used by a committee of the Senate rather than of the House of Commons. Even the copy of the bill that was distributed to committee members was not the usual "as passed'' version, but the first reading copy presented in the House of Commons together with a page appended to it indicating the amendments that had been made to the bill in that House before final passage. Senator Lynch-Staunton was also disturbed by the fact that the Library of Parliament had prepared for the benefit of committee members questions that could be posed to witnesses in advance of the second reading of the bill in the Senate. All this, according to the Senator Lynch-Staunton, seemed "symptomatic of a malaise that has slowly crept into this place and, if allowed to continue unchecked, will push us even further down that slippery slope to irrelevance.''
The Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Carstairs, expressed sympathy for some of the Senator Lynch- Staunton's complaint. Senator Carstairs shared Senator Lynch-Staunton's annoyance with the fact that the department's briefing material had not been properly prepared for Senate use. Nevertheless, Senator Carstairs took note of the fact that the bill is an important piece of legislation which had been hived off from Bill C-41 to deal with the urgent matter of air security. Given this importance, Senator Carstairs did not find it too surprising that the department would have sought to anticipate events to the best of their ability and would have prepared briefing material for distribution to all members of the committee as expeditiously as possible following second reading. For their part, as Senator Carstairs observed, Senators would have been upset had they not received this documentation in time.
Senator Bacon, the Chair of the Committee on Transport and Communications, then spoke to explain how the steering committee had agreed to a standing committee meeting Tuesday morning in order to hear the testimony of a list of witnesses in connection with Bill C-44 in anticipation of its adoption at second reading by the Senate.
Also sharing the misgivings of Senator Lynch-Staunton, Senator Cools proposed that a committee, or perhaps the Senate itself, should study the issue of the relationship of the Senate, the House of Commons and the Executive given the nature of the events surrounding consideration of Bill C-44 and other instances of a similar kind that have occurred in recent years.
I wish to thank Honourable Senators for their interventions. I have investigated the matter and I think that I have a proper understanding of what happened. I am prepared to make my ruling now.
Let me begin by stating at the outset that I do not believe there is a point of order in this particular case. The legitimate complaint that Senator Lynch-Staunton raised has to do with a certain carelessness, if I may put it that way, on the part of the department with respect to the preparation of briefing material. Even Senator Carstairs recognized that the documentation had not been suitably prepared for the use of the Senate. While the specific instance complained of may not seem important on its own, it is because it is part of a growing pattern that it has now become disturbing. Nonetheless, it is not properly a point of order over which I have any authority. The offended committee can raise a complaint with departmental officials when they are present before the committee. In this particular instance, however, I heard nothing to suggest that members of the Transport Committee raised this problem with the officials when reviewing Bill C-44.
As to the matter of the printed version of the bill that was used by the committee, an "as passed'' version should have been distributed. I have been informed that an "as passed'' printing of Bill C-44 was available as of Friday, December 7, 2001. However, I am uncertain who has the responsibility of distributing the copy of the bill to the members of the committee. It is unclear to me why this task should be the responsibility of the officials of the Department rather than our own staff. I suspect that the rush with which the bill was considered by the Committee on Transport and Communications was a relevant factor.
With respect to the other issues mentioned by Senator Lynch-Staunton, the preparation of questions by the Library of Parliament and the scheduling of witnesses for a committee meeting even before the Senate had approved Bill C-44, these are matters that are determined by the committee itself. They do not normally involve the Speaker and, so far as I can determine, there is no basis for my intervention. As I understand from what Senator Bacon stated, the steering committee approved these arrangements as a way to expedite the consideration of a bill it deemed to be urgent.
Even Senator Lynch-Staunton in recounting the chronology of events surrounding the consideration of this bill acknowledged that the notice of the meeting and the distribution of the documents, in the form complained of, occurred only after the second reading. Based on my experience in the Senate, this is not really an uncommon practice especially when the legislation is recognized to be urgent. In the end, it is the membership of this Chamber that sets the pace, not the Speaker.
I hope that this explanation in some way answers the understandable complaint that was raised by the Leader of the Opposition.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Finestone, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., for the second reading of Bill S-21, An Act to guarantee the human right to privacy.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Sparrow moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Watt, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 7 and 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, for the adoption of the Seventh Report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament (official third party recognition) presented in the Senate on November 6, 2001.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on consideration of the Third Report (Interim) of the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries entitled: Aquaculture in Canada's Atlantic and Pacific Regions, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on June 29, 2001.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Mahovlich moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poy, that further debate on the consideration of the report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 3 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 28 (inquiry) and 3 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., calling the attention of the Senate to certain lessons to be drawn from the tragedy that occurred on September 11, 2001.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator LaPierre moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No 31, 38, 36, 7, 16, 11, 29, 33, 32, (inquiries), 73 (motion), 26 (inquiry), 74, 44 (motions), 8 (inquiry), 82 (motion), 13 (inquiry) and 41 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the President of the Treasury Board on Official Languages in Federal Institutions for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2001, pursuant to the Official Languages Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 31 (4th Supp.), s. 48.—Sessional Paper No. 1/ 37-613.
Copy of Regulations amending the United Nations Suppression of Terrorism Regulations (SOR/2001-526), pursuant to the United Nations Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. U-2, sbs. 4(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-614.
Report of the Law Commission of Canada entitled "Beyond Conjugality: Recognizing and supporting close personal adult relationships'', pursuant to the Act respecting the Law Commission of Canada, S.C. 1996, c. 9, s. 24.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-615.
Statutes of the Northwest Territories for September 2001, pursuant to the Northwest Territories Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. N-22, sbs. 21(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-616.
Report of the Canadian Commercial Corporation for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2001, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8 .—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-617.
Report of the Public Service Staff Relations Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2001, pursuant to the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 33 (2nd Supp.), s. 84.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37- 618.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:02 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence
The name of the Honourable Senator Atkins substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Nolin (January 22).
Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations
The name of the Honourable Senator Finestone removed from the membership (February 1).
The name of the Honourable Senator Hubley added to the membership (February 1).
Special Committee of the Senate on Illegal Drugs
The name of the Honourable Senator Chalifoux substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Kenny (February 3).
The names of the Honourable Senators Christensen, Banks and Kenny substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Banks, Christensen and Chalifoux (February 4).
Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
The name of the Honourable Senator Stratton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Atkins (February 4).
The name of the Honourable Senator Di Nino substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Forrestall (February 5).
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The name of the Honourable Senator Rompkey substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Banks (February 4).