Journals of the Senate
51 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2002, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 113
Tuesday, May 7, 2002
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Bacon, Baker, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Christensen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lapointe, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Sparrow, St. Germain, Stollery, Taylor, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, *Atkins, Bacon, Baker, *Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Christensen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, *Cordy, *Day, De Bané, Doody, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, *Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, *Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lapointe, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, *Meighen, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, *Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robertson, Robichaud, Roche, Rossiter, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Sparrow, St. Germain, Stollery, Taylor, Tkachuk, Tunney, Watt, *Wiebe
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.,
That the Senate do not insist on its amendment numbered 1(a) to Bill C-15A, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and to amend other Acts to which the House of Commons has disagreed; and
That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter,
That the motion, together with the Message from the House of Commons on the same subject, dated April 23, 2002, be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Grafstein, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cook, for the third reading of Bill S-18, An Act to Amend the Food and Drugs Act (clean drinking water).
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. for the Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-39, An Act to amend the National Anthem Act to include all Canadians.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tunney for the Honourable Senator Jaffer moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Last Thursday, May 2, Senator Cools raised a point of order in connection with second reading of Bill S-20, a bill designed to increase transparency and objectivity in the process of appointment to certain public offices.
The point of order raised doubts about the propriety of proceeding with second reading given that royal consent has not yet been signified for this Private Member's bill even though a ruling has already been made that royal consent will be needed before Bill S-20 can become law. According to Senator Cools, the only way Senator Stratton, the bill's sponsor, can obtain royal consent is through a motion for an Address to the Governor General. Several other Senators intervened in the discussion on this matter before I closed the proceedings and stated that I would review the transcript as well as earlier decisions on royal consent.
As Honourable Senators are aware, I have already ruled on the question of whether Bill S-20 requires royal consent. Last Autumn, on October 25, 2001, in response to a point of order that had been raised by Senator Joyal on June 5, I ruled that Bill S-20 required royal consent since it affected the royal prerogative of appointment. At the same time, I noted the fact that, in Canadian practice, as distinct from procedures followed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, there is no evidence that royal consent for a bill needs to be signified in both Houses. In fact, based on the precedents, it would seem that royal consent has been signified to most bills that required it in the House of Commons alone, not the Senate and that, up to now at least, no case was found where royal consent to a bill had been signified in both Houses. Based on this established practice that spans more than 130 years, and motivated by a preference to allow debate on a bill, I ruled that the bill could proceed through the Senate.
Senator Cools is attempting to raise a concern that was not directly addressed in my original ruling on Bill S-20. The fundamental position of Senator Cools is that, because Bill S-20 is sponsored by a private member, and one from the Opposition at that, the only way that royal consent can be secured is through an Address to the Governor General.
Senator Cools cited two recognized Canadian parliamentary authorities, Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms and Bourinot's Procedure and Practice in the Dominion of Canada. The Senator also made references to two cases from the British Parliament, one dating from 1868, involving William Gladstone, and another, from 1911 involving Lord Lansdowne.
While I do not dispute the accuracy of the Senator's references and examples, I do question their binding relevance to modern practice. All Senators can appreciate that the law of Parliament is not static; it changes and evolves to suit the needs of Parliament and its members.
As an example of change, one that is not entirely irrelevant to the point of order we are dealing with now, I would note that in the other place, it is now possible for private members to bring in bills that involve an expenditure of money. This new development, which was introduced about ten years ago, allows private members greater scope in preparing bills that are of particular concern to them. Formerly, this practice would not have been possible. Any bill that involved an expenditure required a royal recommendation that can only be obtained by a Minister. This requirement no longer impedes a private member from introducing a ``money'' bill, but the Government must be willing to provide the royal recommendation before the bill receives third reading.
Similarly, in the United Kingdom, it has been possible for some time now for a parliamentarian to introduce a bill that requires royal consent without seeking an Address. Normally what happens is that the sponsor will communicate in writing to a Secretary of State to inquire if the Government would be prepared to seek royal consent for the bill. From what I can gather, the royal consent is usually forthcoming since it is not taken to be an endorsement of the bill by Government.
Whether Senator Stratton will avail himself of this British procedure will be for him to decide. For my part, as I indicated in my ruling of October 25, I do not think it is in the best interest of the Senate to curtail debate on an issue of undoubted importance. Consequently, it is my ruling that there is no valid point of order and debate on second reading of Bill S-20 can proceed.
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Ordered, That Order No. 1 under GOVERNMENT BUSINESS, Reports of Committees be again called.
Consideration of the Sixteenth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce (Bill C- 23, An Act to amend the Competition Act and the Competition Tribunal Act with one amendment and observations), presented in the Senate on May 2, 2002.
The Honourable Senator Kolber moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Maheu, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 5 to 9 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Third Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget 2002-2003), presented in the Senate on May 2, 2002.
The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bolduc, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Consideration of the Sixteenth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs (budget 2002-2003), presented in the Senate on May 2, 2002.
The Honourable Senator Milne moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poy, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 5 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Comeau, seconded by the Honourable Senator Johnson, for the adoption of the Fifth Report of Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries entitled: Selected Themes on Canada's Freshwater and Northern Fisheries, tabled in the Senate on February 19, 2002.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Comeau for the Honourable Senator Johnson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 7 to 16 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 138 (motion), 16, 40 (inquiries), 73 (motion), 46 (inquiry), 44, 122 (motions), 49 (inquiry), 106, 103, 119 (motions) and 43 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Andreychuk calling the attention of the Senate to issues surrounding rural Canada.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tunney moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 42 (inquiry) was called and pursuant to Rule 27(3) was dropped from the Order Paper.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade on Canada's State of Trade for the year 2002.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-756.
Reports of the Canadian International Trade Tribunal for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2) .—Sessional Paper No. 1/37- 757.
Report of the Chicken Farmers of Canada, together with the Auditors' Report, for the year ended December 31, 2001, pursuant to the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-4, s. 30.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37- 758.
Report of the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency, together with the Auditors' Report, for the year ended December 31, 2001, pursuant to the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-4, s. 30.—Sessional Paper No. 1/ 37-759.
Report of the Canadian Turkey Marketing Agency, together with the Auditors' Report, for the year ended December 31, 2001, pursuant to the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-4, s. 30.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-760.
Report of the Canadian Broiler Hatching Egg Marketing Agency, together with the Auditors' Report, for the year ended December 31, 2001, pursuant to the Farm Products Marketing Agencies Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-4, s. 30.—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-761.
Copy of Regulations amending the United Nations Suppression of Terrorism Regulations (SOR/2002-161), pursuant to the United Nations Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. U-2, sbs. 4(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/37-762.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 4:30 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce
The names of the Honourable Senators Bolduc, Angus and Tkachuk substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Tkachuk, Di Nino and Bolduc (April 30).
The names of the Honourable Senators Di Nino and Angus substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Angus and Di Nino (May 1).
Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages
The name of the Honourable Senator Beaudoin substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Nolin (May 2).
Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
The name of the Honourable Senator Poulin removed from the membership (May 3).
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence
The name of the Honourable Senator Baker substituted for that of the Honourable Senator LaPierre (May 3).
Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
The name of the Honourable Senator Hubley substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Christensen (May 3).
The names of the Honourable Senators Mahovlich and Watt substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Banks and Adams (May 6).
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The names of the Honourable Senators Watt and Comeau substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Adams and Gustafson (May 6).