52 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2003, Canada

Journals of the Senate

2nd Session, 37th Parliament

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Issue 65

Tuesday, June 10, 2003
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker

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The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kolber, Kroft, Lavigne, Lawson, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Gustafson, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, *Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, *Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lavigne, Lawson, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Meighen, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, *Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt

PRAYERS

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Bills

Consideration of the Message from the House of Commons concerning Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals).

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the Senate concur in the amendment made by the House of Commons to its amendment 4 to the Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals);

That the Senate do not insist on its amendments 2 and 3 to which the House of Commons has disagreed; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.

After debate,

With leave of the Senate,

The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the question now before the Senate be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs; and

That the Committee report no later than Thursday, June 12, 2003.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Watt moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:

YEAS

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Angus, Atkins, Bolduc, Buchanan, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, Doody, Eyton, Forrestall, Gill, Grafstein, Gustafson, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Lawson, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, Oliver, Prud'homme, Rivest, Rossiter, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt—31

NAYS—CONTRE

The Honourable Senators—Les honorables sénateurs

Austin, Bacon, Banks, Beaudoin, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Graham, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Kolber, Kroft, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Merchant, Milne, Moore, Morin, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Poy, Ringuette, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Smith, Stollery—42

ABSTENTIONS

The Honourable Senators—Les honorables sénateurs

Nil/Aucun

The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the Senate concur in the amendment made by the House of Commons to its amendment 4 to the Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals);

That the Senate do not insist on its amendments 2 and 3 to which the House of Commons has disagreed; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly,

And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the question now before the Senate be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs; and

That the Committee report no later than Thursday, June 12, 2003.

After debate,

A point of order was raised with respect to the motion to refer the question to committee.

After debate,

The Speaker reserved his decision.

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At 5:13 p.m. the sitting was suspended.

At 5:25 p.m. the sitting resumed.

SPEAKER'S RULING

I have had an opportunity to consider the point of order that was raised by Senator Lynch-Staunton and commented on by a number of senators, and I thank all senators for their interventions.

I will start by quoting from our rule 62(1) which states:

Except as provided elsewhere in these rules, the following motions are debatable:

(i) for the reference of a question other than a bill to a standing or special committee;

As I have perhaps commented already, but will repeat, we have before us under our proceedings, Government Business, Bills, No. 1: ``Consideration of the Message from the House of Commons concerning Bill C-10B, An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals),'' to which Senator Carstairs spoke. At the beginning of her comments, she moved a motion that has been distributed to honourable senators, in effect asking the Senate to concur in the amendments set out in the message from the other place.

In the course of her comments, without having brought this matter to a vote, she made a second motion which is the subject matter of the point of order. Relevant to that is rule 62(1)(i), which I read, to the effect that a question before the Senate can be referred to a committee and is debatable.

The issue raised by Senator Lynch-Staunton was that the matter could not be dealt with, as I understood it, until the first question had been resolved. In the course of comments there was concern expressed about the way in which the first motion was proposed from the government side to the effect that the message be concurred in.

The issue is this: Is there anything not in order with the motion proposed by Senator Carstairs, with leave, that the question first proposed, which I believe includes all matters referred to in the motion she made first, be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs?

I have discussed this matter and looked at the precedents and rules, and I can find no impediment, no problem with the Senate voting on the motion currently before the Senate. I so rule.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the Senate concur in the amendment made by the House of Commons to its amendment 4 to the Bill C-10B, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals);

That the Senate do not insist on its amendments 2 and 3 to which the House of Commons has disagreed; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly,

And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:

That the question now before the Senate be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs; and

That the Committee report no later than Thursday, June 12, 2003.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.

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Ordered, That the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.

Bills

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-25, An Act to modernize employment and labour relations in the public service and to amend the Financial Administration Act and the Canadian Centre for Management Development Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Ringuette moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Orders No. 3 and 4 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Motions

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Reports of Committees

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-3, An Act to amend the National Anthem Act to include all Canadians.

The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.

The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-3.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Cools for the Honourable Senator Sparrow moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.

The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-3.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., for the Honourable Senator Adams moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cools, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

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Pursuant to Rule 13(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8:00 p.m.

The sitting resumed.

Ordered, That the Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.

Senate Public Bills

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-3, An Act to amend the National Anthem Act to include all Canadians,

And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., for the Honourable Senator Adams, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cools, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.

The question then being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Poy, seconded by the Honourable Senator Banks, for the second reading of Bill S-3, it was adopted on division.

The Bill was then read the second time, on division.

The Honourable Senator Poy moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Orders No. 4 to 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Commons Public Bills

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Reports of Committees

Orders No. 1 to 9 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other

Orders No. 126, 116, 5 (motions), 2, 14 (inquiries), 66, 121, 122 (motions), 16 (inquiry), 115 (motion), 17, 6, 11, 15, 21 (inquiries), 92 (motion), 22 (inquiry), 91, 86 (motions) 8, 20 (inquiries), 104 (motion) and 9 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.

REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):

Reports of Defence Construction (1951) Limited for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-488.

Summaries of the Corporate Plan for 2003-2004 to 2007-2008 and of the Capital and Operating Budgets for 2003- 2004 of Defence Construction (1951) Limited, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-489.

Report of the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, together with the Auditor's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse Act, S.C. 1988, c. 58, sbs. 31(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-490.

Reports of the Sahtu Land an d Water Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2). —Sessional Paper No. 2/37-491.

Reports of the British Columbia Treaty Committee for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-492.

Reports of the Sahtu Land Use Planning Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-493.

Report on the administration of the Atlantic Fisheries Restructuring Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003, pursuant to the Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-14, sbs. 8(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-494.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

(Accordingly, at 8:14 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights

The name of the Honourable Senator Joyal substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth (June 9).

Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament

The name of the Honourable Senator Cook substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Hubley (June 10).

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