Journals of the Senate
53 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2004, Canada
Journals of the Senate
3rd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 35
Thursday, April 29, 2004
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Lucie Pépin, Speaker pro tempore
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Cochrane, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Day, De Bané, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Cochrane, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Day, De Bané, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, *Grafstein, Graham, Harb, *Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, *Kirby, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, Lavigne, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, *Trenholme Counsell, Watt
PRAYERS
WRITTEN DECLARATION OF ROYAL ASSENT
At 1:33 p.m. the Honourable the Speaker pro tempore informed the Senate that the following communication had been received:
RIDEAU HALL
April 29, 2004
Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Governor General of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bills listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 29th day of April, 2004, at 9:50 a.m.
Yours sincerely,
Barbara Uteck
Secretary to the Governor General
The Honourable
The Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
Schedule
Bills Assented To
Thursday, April 29, 2004
An Act to amend the Customs Tariff (Bill C-21, Chapter 13, 2004)
An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda) (Bill C-250, Chapter 14, 2004)
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Pursuant to Rule 43(7), the Honourable Senator Cools gave notice that she would raise a question of privilege in respect of words spoken during Senate proceedings on Wednesday, April 28, 2004.
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Furey, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, presented its Seventh Report (Bill C-17, An Act to amend certain Acts, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., presented the following:
Thursday, April 29, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology has the honour to present its
FIFTH REPORT
Your Committee, to which was referred Bill C-24, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, has, in obedience to the Order of Reference of Monday, March 29, 2004, examined the said Bill and now reports the same without amendment.
Your Committee appends to this report certain observations on the Bill.
Respectfully submitted,
JOYCE FAIRBAIRN
For the Chair
Observations to the Fifth Report of the
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Bill C-24, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, is intended to allow retired parliamentarians aged between 50 and 55 to continue receiving health, dental and life insurance benefits, even though they are not entitled to their pension during that period as the Act specifies that MP pensions cannot be paid until the retiree has reached age 55.
To justify this amendment, it was argued before the Committee that the benefits for retired Parliamentarians are essentially identical to the benefits provided to retired public servants. In actual fact, public servants have an option to retire as early as age 50, suffering a penalty in the form of a reduced pension but continuing their benefit plan coverage. This option is not available to Parliamentarians due to the terms of the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act.
Proponents of Bill C-24 suggest that it fills a gap in coverage and brings retirement benefits for Parliamentarians in line with those of public servants. Witnesses appearing before the Committee, however, disagreed. Individuals who have left the public service do not have the option of benefit plan coverage between the ages of 50 and 55 prior to receiving their pensions. In essence, it was argued that the government is legislating a double standard: one for former Parliamentarians and one for retired public servants. The Committee was also informed that the vast majority of private plans require that retirees be in receipt of their pension before any health or dental benefits become available.
The Committee understands that the impetus for this Bill lay in the circumstances of one particular Member of Parliament, but that others are also affected. While we are supportive of the specific case, the Committee does have concerns about the process followed; in particular, the use of legislation that amends legislation of general application and impacts a broad policy area, with little debate or public input, when other means may have been available to address an individual situation.
Unfortunately, the Bill's underlying objectives and overall impact were not addressed in any detail in the House of Commons, where it was passed pursuant to the terms of a House Order at all stages in less than one hour, with minimal debate and without committee review. At the very least, other non-legislative options should have been considered to accommodate a unique situation, such as an Order in Council or through internal administrative means. If there is a legislative oversight or gap, it ought to be addressed in the regular legislative course. The amendments contemplated in this Bill could be presented as part of omnibus legislation or in the context of future revisions to the Parliament of Canada Act, or to the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act, thereby ensuring that they are analyzed and debated in a thorough manner with greater public participation and input.
The long-term ramifications of this bill are also unclear. Witnesses suggested that it might, for example, set a precedent that could impact future public service collective bargaining. The extension of these benefits to Parliamentarians could result in nearly half a million federal employees requesting similar pre-pension health and dental benefits.
The Committee is particularly concerned about public perception of legislation that is "fast-tracked,'' a concern that is amplified when a bill addresses compensation or benefits for Parliamentarians. It is even more troublesome in this instance, as we are asked to approve increased healthcare benefits for Parliamentarians at a time when broader public healthcare issues desperately need to be addressed by government. While such bills may be eminently defendable and necessary, we must be more sensitive to the added cynicism they may engender among Canadians.
The dilemma facing the Committee was that we sympathize with the situation of the individual retiring Parliamentarian, who wishes to have continuous coverage and appears to have been caught in an inadvertently created gap, but at the same time the Committee is concerned that this legislation appears to be providing Parliamentarians with benefits which are superior to those available to civil servants when that was not the stated intention.
A better approach might have been to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act to permit former Parliamentarians to take a reduced pension prior to age 55 and receive plan coverage, making the system and choices more comparable to those available to former civil servants.
That was not an option open to the Committee, but is one, which we suggest for future consideration.
The Honourable Senator Morin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Branch of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie, respecting its participation at the meeting of the APF Committee on Education, Communication and Cultural Affairs, held in Bucharest, Romania, from April 15 to 18, 2004.—Sessional Paper No. 3/37-190.
The Honourable Senator De Bané, P.C., tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Branch of the Assemblée parlementaire de la Francophonie, respecting its participation at the meeting of the APF Parliamentary Affairs Committee, held in Vientiane, Laos, from April 7 to 10, 2004.—Sessional Paper No. 3/37-191.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Lapointe presented petitions:
Of Residents of the Province of Ontario with respect to declaring Ottawa officially bilingual.
The Honourable Senator Gauthier presented petitions:
Of Residents of the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec with respect to declaring Ottawa officially bilingual.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton:
That, pursuant to Rule 38, in relation to Bill C-7, An Act to amend certain Acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, in order to enhance public safety, no later than 5:00 p.m. Tuesday, May 4, 2004, any proceedings before the Senate shall be interrupted and all questions necessary to dispose of third reading stage of the Bill shall be put forthwith without further debate or amendment, and that any votes on any of those questions be not further deferred; and
That if a standing vote is requested, the bells to call in the Senators be sounded for thirty minutes, so that the vote takes place at 5:30 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Order No. 1 was withdrawn (Notice of Motion pursuant to Rule 39 concerning Bill C-7).
Bills
Second reading of Bill C-11, An Act to give effect to the Westbank First Nation Self-Government Agreement.
The Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lawson, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 to 7 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 3 (inquiry), 67 (motion), 5, 11 (inquiries), 40, 59, 3, (motions), 1 (inquiry), 28 (motion) and 10 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
_____________________________________________________
Ordered, That the question of privilege be brought forward.
QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE
Pursuant to Rule 43(8), the Senate proceeded to the consideration of the question of privilege of the Honourable Senator Cools in respect of words spoken during Senate proceedings on Wednesday, April 28, 2004.
After debate,
The Speaker pro tempore reserved her decision.
INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Poulin called the attention of the Senate to the fact that the 2001 census results, published in 2003, show that the Canadian population is decreasing in many regions across Canada and that this trend has short- and long-term socio-economic implications.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Losier-Cool moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Gauthier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C.:
That the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament examine the rules, practices, customs and conventions of other legislatures in order to prepare a draft of modern and democratic rules thereby following up responsibly on petitions to the Senate.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Plamondon, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Gauthier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:
That the petitions calling on the Senate to declare the City of Ottawa, Canada's capital, a bilingual city, be sent to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for consideration;
That the Committee consider the merits of amending section 16 of the Constitution Act, 1867; and
That the Committee report to the Senate no later than October 21, 2004.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
_____________________________________________________
Pursuant to Rule 7(2), the sitting was suspended until 5:15 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
DEFERRED VOTE
At 5:30 p.m., and pursuant to Rule 67, the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred standing vote on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Nolin, to the motion of the Honourable Senator Day, seconded by the Honourable Senator Léger, for the third reading of Bill C-7, An Act to amend certain Acts of Canada, and to enact measures for implementing the Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, in order to enhance public safety.
The question was put on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Nolin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended, on page 103, by adding after line 26 the following:
"Review and Report
111.2 (1) Within three years after this Act receives royal assent, a comprehensive review of the provisions and operation of this Act shall be undertaken by such committee of the Senate, of the House of Commons or of both Houses of Parliament as may be designated or established by the Senate or the House of Commons, or by both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, for that purpose.
(2) The committee referred to in subsection (1) shall, within a year after a review is undertaken pursuant to that subsection or within such further time as may be authorized by the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, submit a report on the review to Parliament, including a statement of any changes that the committee recommends.''.
The motion in amendment was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Atkins, Forrestall, LeBreton, Lynch-Staunton, Murray, Nolin, Plamondon, Prud'homme, Stratton—10
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Baker, Banks, Biron, Callbeck, Carstairs, Cook, Corbin, Day, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gauthier, Graham, Harb, Jaffer, Kenny, LaPierre, Léger, Losier-Cool, Mercer, Moore, Munson, Phalen, Poulin, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Smith—33
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that further debate on the motion for the third reading of Bill C-7 be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
_____________________________________________________
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:
That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 2:00 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Management Plan for Red Bay National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 177.
Management Plan for Carleton Martello Tower National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 178.
Management Plan for St. Andrews Blockhouse National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 179.
Management Plan for Chilkoot Trail National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 180.
Management Plan for S.S. Klondike National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 181.
Management Plan for S.S. Keno National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 182.
Management Plan for Dawson Historical Complex National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 183.
Management Plan for Dredge No. 4 National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 184.
Management Plan for Cape Spear National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 185.
Management Plan for Melanson Settlement National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 186.
Management Plan for Bellevue House National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 187.
Management Plan for Carillon Canal National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 188.
Report of the First Nations Lands Advisory Board for 2003, pursuant to section 41.1 of the Framework Agreement on First Nations Land Management, as ratified by the First Nations Land Management Act, S.C. 1999, c. 24.—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 189.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:36 p.m. the Senate was continued until Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 2:00 p.m.)
_____________________________________________________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The names of the Honourable Senators Lynch-Staunton and Forrestall substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Keon and Rossiter (April 28).
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The name of the Honourable Senator Comeau substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Eyton (April 28).
Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights
The name of the Honourable Senator Chaput substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth (April 28).
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The name of the Honourable Senator Stratton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Buchanan (April 28).