Journals of the Senate
54 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2005, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 38th Parliament
Issue 62
Wednesday, May 18, 2005
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Shirley Maheu, Speaker pro tempore
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Cowan, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gill, Grafstein, Harb, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, McCoy, Meighen, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, *Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, *Biron, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, *Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Cowan, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, *Downe, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, *Forrestall, Fraser, *Furey, Gill, Grafstein, Harb, *Hays, *Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, *Kelleher, *Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, *Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, McCoy, Meighen, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, *Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt
The Clerk at the Table informed the Senate that the Honourable the Speaker was unavoidably absent, whereupon the Honourable Senator Maheu, Speaker pro tempore, took the Chair, pursuant to rule 11.
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some honourable senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Bacon, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, presented its tenth report (Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the DNA Identification Act and the National Defence Act, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Pearson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, presented its sixth report (Bill C-40, An Act to amend the Canada Grain Act and the Canada Transportation Act, without amendment).
The Honourable Senator Mitchell moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That today, Wednesday, May 18, 2005, the Senate continue its proceedings beyond 4 p.m. and follow the normal adjournment procedure according to rule 6(1); and
That committees of the Senate scheduled to meet today be authorized to sit even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk presented a Bill S-35, An Act to amend the State Immunity Act and the Criminal Code (terrorist activity).
The bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Third reading of Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 and the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999.
The Honourable Senator Hubley moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercer, that the bill be read the third time.
A point of order was raised concerning the proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources with respect to Bill C-15.
After debate,
The Speaker pro tempore reserved her decision.
At 3:01 p.m. the sitting was suspended.
At 3:23 p.m. the sitting resumed.
SPEAKER PRO TEMORE'S RULING
Bill C-15 was given second reading in the Senate on February 2, 2005. It was referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources. The Committee held 13 meetings and heard the testimony of more than 40 witnesses. At its meeting yesterday, the committee adopted a motion to dispense with clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. The bill was reported by the committee on May 17, yesterday, without amendment. The Senate then adopted an order to have the bill considered at third reading at the next sitting of the Senate.
Traditionally the committee is regarded as the master of its own proceedings. At the same time, rule 96(7) provides that:
... a select committee shall not, without the approval of the Senate, adopt any special procedure or practice that is inconsistent with the practices and usages of the Senate itself.
The purpose of the reference of a bill to a committee is to allow for detailed examination of the bill, which usually includes clause-by-clause as well as the hearing of witnesses. As Senator Banks noted in citing Marleau and Monpetit, clause-by-clause is a practice that allows members to propose amendments to a bill as the committee proceeds through its consideration of the bill.
In making my ruling, I need to consider various issues. A motion that has the effect of preventing members from the ability to move amendments, a fundamental purpose of the reference by the Senate, strikes me as irregular. However, it is difficult for me, as Speaker, to take retroactive action on the proceedings that appear to have taken place in the committee, given that the Senate adopted yesterday the order to proceed to third reading today.
It is important that all senators be mindful of the right possessed by each senator who is a member of a committee to propose amendments as they see fit. A motion that prevents senators from exercising this right seems to me to be out of order. It might be contrary to rule 96(7) of the Rules of the Senate.
If the committee seeks to suspend a rule or practice with respect to clause-by-clause, the committee might consider the advisability of doing it through leave, rather than by motion, to ensure that no rights to which a senator is entitled are unduly infringed.
As I mentioned, I do not feel I have the authority to undo decisions that have already been taken by the Senate. At the same time, I remind senators that they still retain the right to propose amendments to clauses in the bill during third reading debate. It is my ruling, therefore, that I cannot undo what was done by the committee and already accepted by the Senate. Debate on third reading can begin in the full knowledge that senators have the right to move amendments to clauses of the bill.
It is my personal feeling that the Rules Committee could examine the advisability of reviewing the practice, that unless leave is granted by members of the committee to dispense with the procedure, committees are bound to examine bills that are referred to them clause-by-clause.
Therefore, there is no point of order. We can now commence debate on third reading of Bill C-15.
The Senate proceeded to the motion of the Honourable Senator Hubley, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercer, for the third reading of Bill C-15.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Angus moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Eyton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Buchanan, Comeau, Cools, Corbin, Di Nino, Gill, Johnson, Keon, Kinsella, McCoy, Murray, Oliver, Prud'homme, Stratton, Watt—17
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Bacon, Banks, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Cook, Cordy, Cowan, Day, De Bané, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Grafstein, Hubley, Jaffer, Léger, Losier-Cool, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Pearson, Phalen, Poulin, Poy, Robichaud, Rompkey, Trenholme Counsell—33
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Ferretti Barth, Joyal, Sibbeston, Tardif—4
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Hubley, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercer, for the third reading of Bill C-15.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Adams moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Angus, that Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 and the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999 be not now read a third time but referred back to the Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources for clause-by-clause consideration.
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, Comeau, Cools, Di Nino, Gill, Keon, Kinsella, Murray, Oliver, Prud'homme, Sibbeston, Stratton, Watt—15
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Bacon, Banks, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Cook, Cordy, Cowan, Day, De Bané, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fraser, Grafstein, Harb, Hubley, Léger, Losier-Cool, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Munson, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Poulin, Poy, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Trenholme Counsell—34
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Ferretti Barth, Moore—2
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Hubley, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercer, for the third reading of Bill C-15.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Angus moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Buchanan, P.C., that Bill C-15 be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 9,
(a) on page 13,
(i) by replacing lines 12 to 15 with the following:
"(1.11) Where a vessel of 5,000 tonnes deadweight or over is convicted of an offence under section 5.1, and the offence was committed intentionally or recklessly,
(a) a fine imposed on the vessel under paragraph (1.1)(a) for the offence'', and
(ii) by replacing line 17 with the following:
"(b) a fine imposed on the vessel under paragraph (1.1)(b) for the offence''; and(b) on page 14, by adding after line 23 the following:
"(1.9) No individual shall be convicted of an offence under this Act if
(a) the offence is alleged to have been committed in the course of the operation of a vessel, and
(b) at the time when the offence is alleged to have been committed, the individual is a master, officer or member of the crew of the vessel, or is in the service of the vessel on board the vessel,
unless it is proved that
(c) the individual acted intentionally or recklessly, and
(d) if, at the time when the offence is alleged to have been committed, the individual is a foreign national and the vessel is a foreign vessel, the offence was committed in the internal waters or territorial sea of Canada.
(1.91) Subsection (1.9) is not a bar to the conviction under this Act of a vessel or a person other than an individual described in paragraph (1.9)(b) in respect of the conduct of an individual described in that paragraph.''.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Angus, Buchanan, Comeau, Di Nino, Kinsella, McCoy, Murray, Oliver, Prud'homme, Stratton, Tkachuk—11
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Bacon, Banks, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Cooke, Corbin, Cordy, Cowan, Day, De Bané, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Fraser, Gill, Grafstein, Harb, Hubley, Léger, Losier-Cool, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Trenholme Counsell, Watt—38
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
The question then being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Hubley, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mercer, for the third reading of Bill C-15, An Act to amend the Migratory Birds Convention Act, 1994 and the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, 1999, it was adopted on division.
The bill was then read the third time and passed, on division.
Ordered, That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, without amendment.
Ordered, That Order No. 1 under OTHER BUSINESS, Reports of Committees, be brought forward.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Smith, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the adoption of the third report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament (Conflict of Interest Code for Senators), tabled in the Senate on May 11, 2005.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted, on division.
Ordered, That all remaining items on the Order Paper and Notice Paper be postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Management Plan for Ardgowan National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/38-533.
Management Plan for Province House National Historic Site of Canada, pursuant to the Parks Canada Agency Act, S.C. 1998, c. 31, sbs. 32(1).—Sessional Paper No. 1/38-534.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 7:56 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow.)
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The name of the Honourable Senator Mahovlich substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Peterson (May 17).
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The names of the Honourable Senators Chaput and Kinsella substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Mercer and Nolin (May 17).
The names of the Honourable Senators Nolin and Mercer substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Kinsella and Chaput (May 18).
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs
The name of the Honourable Senator LeBreton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Carney (May 17).
The name of the Honourable Senator Carney substituted for that of the Honourable Senator LeBreton (May 18).
Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry
The names of the Honourable Senators Gustafson and Peterson substituted for those of the Honourable Senator Stratton and Baker (May 18).