Journals of the Senate
60 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2011, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 41st Parliament
Issue 17
Wednesday, October 5, 2011
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Noël A. Kinsella, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Baker, Banks, Boisvenu, Braley, Brown, Callbeck, Carignan, Carstairs, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dawson, De Bané, Demers, Di Nino, Dickson, Downe, Duffy, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Peterson, Poirier, Poy, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Sibbeston, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Zimmer
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Baker, Banks, Boisvenu, Braley, Brown, Callbeck, Carignan, Carstairs, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dawson, *Day, De Bané, Demers, Di Nino, Dickson, Downe, Duffy, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, *Nolin, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Peterson, Poirier, Poy, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Sibbeston, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Zimmer
The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.
An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Tributes
Tribute was paid to the Honourable William Rompkey, P.C., who retired from the Senate on May 13, 2011.
Senators' Statements
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable the Speaker tabled the following:
The October 2011 Report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to the House of Commons, pursuant to the Auditor General Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-17, sbs. 23(5).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-467.
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rivard:
That, if the sitting of the Senate is suspended today pursuant to rule 7(2), committees scheduled to meet today be authorized to meet from the time of the suspension and for the remainder of the day even though the Senate may then be sitting, with the application of rule 95(4) being suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carignan, tabled the following:
Reply to Question No. 2, dated June 3, 2011 appearing on the Order Paper and Notice Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Downe, respecting the Do Not Call List.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-468S.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Inquiries
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 32 (motion) and 6 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Jaffer, calling the attention of the Senate to the deteriorating human rights situation of the Baha'i people in Iran.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tardif moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 2 (inquiry) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
INQUIRIES
The Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., called the attention of the Senate to the Report of the Auditor General specifically with respect to the Aboriginal Child Welfare System.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tardif moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Chaput moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages be authorized to examine and report on the use of the Internet, new media and social media and the respect for Canadians' language rights; and
That the committee report from time to time to the Senate but no later than October 31, 2012, and that the committee retain all powers necessary to publicize its findings until December 31, 2012.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
At 3:47 p.m., pursuant to rule 7(2), the sitting was suspended until 5:15 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
DEFERRED VOTE
At 5:30 p.m., pursuant to rule 67, the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred standing vote on the superseding motion of the Honourable Senator Tardif, to government motion No. 11, of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C., concerning the sitting schedule of the Senate for the current session.
The question was put on the superseding motion of the Honourable Senator Tardif, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cowan:
That the question be referred to the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament for consideration and report.
The superseding motion was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Cordy, Cowan, Dawson, De Bané, Dyck, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Fraser, Furey, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Joyal, Losier-Cool, Mahovlich, Mercer, Merchant, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Peterson, Poulin, Ringuette, Robichaud, Sibbeston, Smith (Cobourg), Tardif, Zimmer—32
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Boisvenu, Braley, Carignan, Cochrane, Comeau, Dickson, Duffy, Eaton, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Frum, Greene, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Meighen, Meredith, Mockler, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Poirier, Raine, Rivard, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tkachuk, Verner, Wallace, Wallin—43
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Cools—1
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C.:
That, during the remainder of the current session,
(a) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday or a Thursday, it shall sit at 1:30 p.m. notwithstanding rule 5(1)(a);
(b) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday, it stand adjourned at the later of 4 p.m. or the end of Government Business, but no later than the time otherwise provided in the Rules, unless it has been suspended for the purpose of taking a deferred vote or has earlier adjourned;
(c) when the Senate sits past 4 p.m. on a Wednesday, committees scheduled to meet be authorized to do so, even if the Senate is then sitting, with the application of rule 95(4) being suspended in relation thereto; and
(d) when a vote is deferred until 5:30 p.m. on a Wednesday, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings, if required, immediately prior to any adjournment but no later than the time provided in paragraph (b), to suspend the sitting until 5:30 p.m. for the taking of the deferred vote, and that committees be authorized to meet during the period that the sitting is suspended.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Mockler moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallace:
That the original question be now put.
Debate.
Pursuant to rule 13(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C.:
That, during the remainder of the current session,
(a) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday or a Thursday, it shall sit at 1:30 p.m. notwithstanding rule 5(1)(a);
(b) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday, it stand adjourned at the later of 4 p.m. or the end of Government Business, but no later than the time otherwise provided in the Rules, unless it has been suspended for the purpose of taking a deferred vote or has earlier adjourned;
(c) when the Senate sits past 4 p.m. on a Wednesday, committees scheduled to meet be authorized to do so, even if the Senate is then sitting, with the application of rule 95(4) being suspended in relation thereto; and
(d) when a vote is deferred until 5:30 p.m. on a Wednesday, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings, if required, immediately prior to any adjournment but no later than the time provided in paragraph (b), to suspend the sitting until 5:30 p.m. for the taking of the deferred vote, and that committees be authorized to meet during the period that the sitting is suspended;
And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Mockler, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallace:
That the original question be now put.
After debate,
A point of order was raised as to the acceptability of the motion.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
I wish to thank all honourable senators for their contribution to this point of order raised by the Honourable Senator Banks. I, too, spent part of the break between 6 p.m and 8 p.m. in anticipation, but not with any sense of prophecy. I had the opportunity to examine the contemporary procedural literature. First of all, I want to state that I am prepared to rule now because I am comfortable with what I will say.
However, I respect the will of the house. It is the honourable senators who regulate this house. The Speaker's job is to follow the rules that the house has established and to try and interpret those rules in an equitable, thoughtful and just manner. Should the Speaker fail at any time in doing that, he or she will be corrected by the will of the majority of the house, which I think is a superior system to that in the other place. For me, the will of the house is the lumina pedibus meus—the light at the feet of any Speaker.
The question that has been raised basically is whether or not the motion by the Honourable Senator Mockler, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallace, for the previous question to be put is in order or not. My reading of rule 48 — and I will not repeat it, it is there for all to read — is that it is very explicit and clear, as adopted by the house.
It is, as many have indicated, rarely used. Some of the points that Senator Cools has made, speak to why that particular procedure is rarely used, but that does not mean it is not used or never used. It is up to the members of the chamber to determine whether or not a member is going to use that rule and bring forward a motion that the previous question be put.
It is my ruling that the motion is in order, in that it deals with a matter for which full notice was given. There were opportunities for discussions during the notice period. There are still opportunities for a full debate on the motion.
It is the ruling of the chair that the motion is in order. If there is no further debate, I will put the question.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C.:
That, during the remainder of the current session,
(a) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday or a Thursday, it shall sit at 1:30 p.m. notwithstanding rule 5(1)(a);
(b) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday, it stand adjourned at the later of 4 p.m. or the end of Government Business, but no later than the time otherwise provided in the Rules, unless it has been suspended for the purpose of taking a deferred vote or has earlier adjourned;
(c) when the Senate sits past 4 p.m. on a Wednesday, committees scheduled to meet be authorized to do so, even if the Senate is then sitting, with the application of rule 95(4) being suspended in relation thereto; and
(d) when a vote is deferred until 5:30 p.m. on a Wednesday, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings, if required, immediately prior to any adjournment but no later than the time provided in paragraph (b), to suspend the sitting until 5:30 p.m. for the taking of the deferred vote, and that committees be authorized to meet during the period that the sitting is suspended;
And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Mockler, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallace:
That the original question be now put.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Tardif moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Banks, Chaput, Cowan, Dawson, Downe, Eggleton, Fraser, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Mahovlich, Mercer, Merchant, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Peterson, Poulin, Ringuette, Robichaud, Smith (Cobourg), Tardif—21
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Boisvenu, Braley, Carignan, Cochrane, Comeau, Dickson, Duffy, Eaton, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Frum, Greene, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Mockler, Nancy Ruth, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Poirier, Rivard, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tkachuk, Verner, Wallace, Wallin—39
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Cools—1
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, P.C.:
That, during the remainder of the current session,
(a) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday or a Thursday, it shall sit at 1:30 p.m. notwithstanding rule 5(1)(a);
(b) when the Senate sits on a Wednesday, it stand adjourned at the later of 4 p.m. or the end of Government Business, but no later than the time otherwise provided in the Rules, unless it has been suspended for the purpose of taking a deferred vote or has earlier adjourned;
(c) when the Senate sits past 4 p.m. on a Wednesday, committees scheduled to meet be authorized to do so, even if the Senate is then sitting, with the application of rule 95(4) being suspended in relation thereto; and
(d) when a vote is deferred until 5:30 p.m. on a Wednesday, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings, if required, immediately prior to any adjournment but no later than the time provided in paragraph (b), to suspend the sitting until 5:30 p.m. for the taking of the deferred vote, and that committees be authorized to meet during the period that the sitting is suspended;
And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Mockler, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wallace:
That the original question be now put.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Hervieux-Payette, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Downe:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 10:11 p.m. the Senate was continued until 2 p.m. tomorrow)
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Reports of the Public Health Agency of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2011, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-466.
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The Honourable Senator Stratton replaced the Honourable Senator Brazeau (October 5, 2011).
Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry
The Honourable Senator Plett replaced the Honourable Senator Nolin (October 5, 2011).
Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
The Honourable Senator Johnson replaced the Honourable Senator Nolin (October 5, 2011).
Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
The Honourable Senator Duffy replaced the Honourable Senator Nolin (October 4, 2011).
The Honourable Senator Furey replaced the Honourable Senator Chaput (October 4, 2011).
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The Honourable Senator Rivard replaced the Honourable Senator Demers (October 5, 2011).