Journals of the Senate
61 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2012, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 41st Parliament
Issue 81
Thursday, May 17, 2012
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Noël A. Kinsella, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Baker, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Brown, Buth, Callbeck, Campbell, Carignan, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, De Bané, Di Nino, Downe, Eaton, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Peterson, Poirier, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, White, Zimmer
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Ataullahjan, Baker, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Brown, Buth, Callbeck, Campbell, Carignan, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, De Bané, Di Nino, Downe, Eaton, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Finley, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Harb, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, MacDonald, Mahovlich, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Ogilvie, Oliver, Patterson, Peterson, Poirier, Ringuette, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), St. Germain, Stewart Olsen, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, White, Zimmer
The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.
An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.
PRAYERS
WRITTEN DECLARATION OF ROYAL ASSENT
At 1:35 p.m., the Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the following communication had been received:
RIDEAU HALL
May 17, 2012
Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bills listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 17th day of May, 2012, at 9:30 a.m.
Yours sincerely,
Stephen Wallace
Secretary to the Governor General
The Honourable
The Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
Schedule
Bills Assented To
Thursday, May 17, 2012
An Act to amend the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Transportation Act (Bill S-4, Chapter 7, 2012)
An Act to authorize Industrial Alliance Pacific Insurance and Financial Services Inc. to apply to be continued as a body corporate under the laws of Quebec (Bill S-1003)
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
The Honourable Senator Carignan tabled the following:
Supplementary Estimates (A) 2012-2013.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-900.
Report and Recommendations to the Minister of Justice of Canada of the fourth Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission, dated May 15, 2012.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-901.
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk, Chair of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration, tabled its eleventh report (Senators' Travel Policy).—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-902S.
The Honourable Senator Tkachuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Unger, that the report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
First Reading of Commons Public Bills
A message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-316, An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act (incarceration), to which it desires the concurrence of the Senate.
The bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Eaton, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Tabling of Reports from Inter-Parliamentary Delegations
The Honourable Senator Fortin-Duplessis tabled the following:
Report of the Canadian Parliamentary Delegation of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) respecting its participation at the 123rd IPU Assembly and Related Meetings, held in Geneva, Switzerland, from October 4 to 6, 2010.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-903.
Report of the Canadian Parliamentary Delegation of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) respecting its participation at the 124th IPU Assembly and Related Meetings, held in Panama City, Panama, from April 15 to 20, 2011.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-904.
Report of the Canadian Parliamentary Delegation of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) respecting its participation at the 125th IPU Assembly and Related Meetings, held in Bern, Switzerland, from October 16 to 19, 2011.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-905.
Report of the Canadian Parliamentary Delegation of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) respecting its participation at the Meeting of Co-Rapporteurs of the Third IPU Standing Committee on Democracy and Human Rights, held in Geneva, Switzerland, from May 18 to 20, 2011. —Sessional Paper No. 1/41-906.
Report of the Canadian Parliamentary Delegation of the Canadian Group of the Inter-Parliamentary Union (IPU) respecting its participation at the Parliamentary Panel within the Framework of the World Trade Organization (WTO) Public Forum 2011 and the 24th Session of the Steering Committee of the Parliamentary Conference on the WTO, held in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 20 and 21, 2011.—Sessional Paper No. 1/41-907.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
° ° °
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tkachuk, for the second reading of Bill S-9, An Act to amend the Criminal Code.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the bill be referred to the Special Senate Committee on Anti-terrorism.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Inquiries
Order No. 3 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Consideration of the fourth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade (Passport Canada's Fee-for-Service Proposal to Parliament, pursuant to the User Fees Act, without amendment), presented in the Senate on May 10, 2012.
The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Jaffer, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, for the adoption of the sixth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights (budget—study on the rights of off-reserve Aboriginal Peoples—power to hire staff and to travel), presented in the Senate on May 3, 2012.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
° ° °
Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 40, 9, 30, 18, 22, 41, 32 (inquiries), 81 (motion), 44, 45 and 35 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
° ° °
Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Meighen, calling the attention of the Senate to the economic benefits of recreational Atlantic salmon fishing in Canada.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Maltais moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator White, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
° ° °
Orders No. 39, 3 (inquiries), 19 (motion), 38, 33, 29, 11, 19 (inquiries), 83 (motion), 25, 42, 26 (inquiries), 75 (motion) and 20 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tardif:
That the order for the adoption of the first report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament be discharged from the Order Paper and that the report be referred to a Committee of the Whole;
That this Committee of the Whole meet each Tuesday the Senate sits after the adoption of this motion, at the end of Government Business, until its work is completed, without having to report progress and seek leave to sit again;
That, while this Committee of the Whole is meeting the provisions of rules 6(1), 13(1), and 84(2) be suspended, with the Senate continuing to sit until the committee has completed its work for that day;
That business of this Committee of the Whole be conducted according to the following schedule:
(a) during the initial period of the first meeting senators may ask questions of representatives of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament, with the time for the question and response being counted as part of the ten minutes' speaking time allowed under rule 84(1)(b);
(b) after this initial period, which shall last a maximum of one hour, the committee shall consider chapters one, two, three, and four of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one additional hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
(c) during the initial portion of the second meeting the committee shall consider chapters five, six, seven, eight, and nine of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment;
(d) during the second portion of the second meeting, the committee shall consider chapters ten, eleven, and twelve of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
(e) during the initial portion of the third meeting, the committee shall consider chapters thirteen and fourteen of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment;
(f) during the second portion of the third meeting, the committee shall consider chapters fifteen and sixteen and the appendices of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters and appendices successively, without further debate or amendment;
(g) after completing its consideration of the First Appendix of the report at the end of the third meeting, the committee shall consider its recommendation to the Senate as to whether or not the report should be adopted, with amendments if appropriate, for a maximum of 30 minutes, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of any business successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
That, as a general practice, the committee consider the First Appendix of the report chapter by chapter, and, in particular, it shall proceed in this manner if the chair is required to interrupt proceedings to put all questions; and
That the chair report the result of the committee's work, with a recommendation to adopt the First Report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament or not, along with any proposed amendments, during Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees during Routine Proceedings as soon as convenient after it has completed its work.
A point of order was raised with respect to the acceptability of the motion.
Debate.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable senators, I want to thank Honourable Senator Cools for raising her point of order. Because this house was very generous to the Speaker in affording sufficient time for me to very carefully study the point of order that resulted in the Speaker's Ruling, I feel very comfortable that I am familiar with the procedural literature on the issue. Therefore I am prepared to rule on this point of order forthwith.
The question that is really before the Speaker is whether or not this motion is properly before the house: Is this motion in order? The motion is moved by the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tardif. In my opinion, it is clearly in order and I will give reasons why it is my opinion that this motion is in order.
First and foremost, the motion is in order because proper notice was given. That proper notice afforded even this member of this honourable house to have the chance to study the motion in detail. We are all familiar with what is being proposed. Clearly, this motion which has been subject to debate is open for debate, and after debate, it is open to a determination. The motion is also subject to amendment. Therefore the house is fully possessed of this proposition and it can change and modify the motion.
To the question as to whether or not matters do not appear every day on the daily Order Paper, often we have a bill or a matter that is being debated in the chamber and it is on the Order Paper of the chamber, but we do not keep things on the Order Paper when we refer them to our standing committees. Indeed, bills themselves are sent to our committees.
However, there is a practice that these matters will return to this chamber if such steps as third reading will occur in the case of bills. This cannot happen in committee. The bill must come back to the chamber. Equally, any decisions taken in committees dealing with reports are simply that.
Honourable senators, I take this opportunity to point out that our committees often have their committee reports made public and there is great discussion. The great discussion across the land is that this is the view of the Senate of Canada on whatever subject matter has been studied by a committee. Of course it is not, unless that report has been adopted by the Senate. Up to that point, it is only the opinion and recommendation of a committee. It is a committee report.
This is why, if you look our own records, senators have often raised questions of privilege concerning reports being made public before they were tabled with the Senate, giving honourable senators the opportunity to concur or to disagree or to raise cautions about the content of reports. There is no question that the final decisions are made in this chamber by all honourable senators.
Does the house have the right to instruct its committees to do things? Some honourable senators will remember, not too long ago, in 2004, we had here Bill C-250. I remember Senator Murray was dealing with the bill, which had to do with an amendment to the Criminal Code on hate propaganda. A question of privilege was made around that. The Speaker ruled, on April 28, 2004, that the instructions to the committee were quite appropriate and the intent of the motion was clear, et cetera. Then, as I reviewed some of the procedural literature as to whether this chamber can do what is proposed to be done in this motion, for example, in the privileges of the House in Beauchesne's fifth edition, at page 13, paragraph 21:
The most fundamental privilege of the House as a whole is to establish rules of procedure for itself and to enforce them. A few rules are laid down in the British North America Act, but the vast majority are resolutions of the House which may be added to, amended, or repealed at the discretion of the House.
This is important, honourable senators:
It follows, therefore, that the House may dispense with the application of any of these rules by unanimous consent on any occasion . . .
And we often do that.
. . . or, by motion, may suspend their operation for a specified length of time.
This underscores the principle that this house, this chamber, is the master and this motion, which I find to be very much in order, is reflecting the exercise by this house of its privilege to operate as it proceeds and its committees to operate the way they see the committees should operate.
According to Beauchesne's fourth edition, at paragraph 10:
Standing Orders may be suspended for a particular case without prejudice to their continued validity, for the house . . .
In the more recent publication of O'Brien and Bosc, once again makes clear that it is the exclusive right of the house to regulate its own internal affairs, there is reference to its control of its own debates, agenda and proceedings. Therefore the procedural literature is very clear and would support that this motion is in order, is subject to amendment and, at the end of the day, it will be a determination of the chamber.
Honourable senators, we had called for debate, and the motion is in order.
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Tardif:
That the order for the adoption of the first report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament be discharged from the Order Paper and that the report be referred to a Committee of the Whole;
That this Committee of the Whole meet each Tuesday the Senate sits after the adoption of this motion, at the end of Government Business, until its work is completed, without having to report progress and seek leave to sit again;
That, while this Committee of the Whole is meeting the provisions of rules 6(1), 13(1), and 84(2) be suspended, with the Senate continuing to sit until the committee has completed its work for that day;
That business of this Committee of the Whole be conducted according to the following schedule:
(a) during the initial period of the first meeting senators may ask questions of representatives of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament, with the time for the question and response being counted as part of the ten minutes' speaking time allowed under rule 84(1)(b);
(b) after this initial period, which shall last a maximum of one hour, the committee shall consider chapters one, two, three, and four of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one additional hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
(c) during the initial portion of the second meeting the committee shall consider chapters five, six, seven, eight, and nine of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment;
(d) during the second portion of the second meeting, the committee shall consider chapters ten, eleven, and twelve of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
(e) during the initial portion of the third meeting, the committee shall consider chapters thirteen and fourteen of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters successively, without further debate or amendment;
(f) during the second portion of the third meeting, the committee shall consider chapters fifteen and sixteen and the appendices of the First Appendix of the report for a maximum of one hour, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of these chapters and appendices successively, without further debate or amendment;
(g) after completing its consideration of the First Appendix of the report at the end of the third meeting, the committee shall consider its recommendation to the Senate as to whether or not the report should be adopted, with amendments if appropriate, for a maximum of 30 minutes, after which the chair shall interrupt proceedings to put all questions necessary to dispose of any business successively, without further debate or amendment, after which the committee shall rise once it has disposed of any consequential business;
That, as a general practice, the committee consider the First Appendix of the report chapter by chapter, and, in particular, it shall proceed in this manner if the chair is required to interrupt proceedings to put all questions; and
That the chair report the result of the committee's work, with a recommendation to adopt the first report of the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament or not, along with any proposed amendments, during Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees during Routine Proceedings as soon as convenient after it has completed its work.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted, on division.
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Marshall:
That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, May 29, 2012, at 2 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carignan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 3:59 p.m. the Senate was continued until Tuesday, May 29, 2012, at 2 p.m.)
_________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The Honourable Senator Raine replaced the Honourable Senator Lang (May 17, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Lang replaced the Honourable Senator Raine (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry
The Honourable Senator Nolin replaced the Honourable Senator Plett (May 17, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce
The Honourable Senator Dawson replaced the Honourable Senator Massicotte (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
The Honourable Senator Frum replaced the Honourable Senator Neufeld (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The Honourable Senator Finley replaced the Honourable Senator MacDonald (May 17, 2012).
The Honourable Senator MacDonald replaced the Honourable Senator Finley (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The Honourable Senator Gerstein replaced the Honourable Senator Nolin (May 16, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Finley replaced the Honourable Senator Frum (May 16, 2012).
The Honourable Senator Frum replaced the Honourable Senator Housakos (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence
The Honourable Senator Lang replaced the Honourable Senator Frum (May 16, 2012).
Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations
The Honourable Senator Boisvenu replaced the Honourable Senator Frum (May 16, 2012).
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The Honourable Senator Housakos replaced the Honourable Senator Demers (May 16, 2012).