Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 41st Parliament
Issue 5
Thursday, October 24, 2013
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Noël A. Kinsella, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Baker, Batters, Bellemare, Beyak, Black, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Buth, Callbeck, Carignan, Champagne, Charette-Poulin, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, Demers, Downe, Doyle, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, McInnis, McIntyre, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oh, Oliver, Patterson, Plett, Poirier, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), Stewart Olsen, Tannas, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Wells, White
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Baker, Batters, Bellemare, Beyak, Black, Boisvenu, Braley, Brazeau, Buth, Callbeck, Carignan, Champagne, Charette-Poulin, Comeau, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dallaire, Dawson, Demers, Downe, Doyle, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Furey, Gerstein, Greene, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McCoy, McInnis, McIntyre, Mercer, Merchant, Meredith, Mitchell, Mockler, Moore, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oh, Oliver, Patterson, Plett, Poirier, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Rivest, Robichaud, Runciman, Segal, Seidman, Seth, Smith (Cobourg), Smith (Saurel), Stewart Olsen, Tannas, Tardif, Tkachuk, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Wallin, Wells, White
The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.
An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Tabling of documents
The Honourable the Speaker tabled the following:
Audit Report of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada on the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, pursuant to the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financial Act, S.C. 2000, c. 17, sbs. 72.(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/41-97.
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Senators' Statements.
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Tabling of documents
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Brazeau tabled the following:
Copy of email correspondence, dated March 8, 2011, between the Office of Senator Brazeau and the Director of Senate Finance and Procurement.—Sessional Paper No. 2/41-98S.
Presenting or Tabling of Reports from Committees
The Honourable Senator Marshall presented the following:
Thursday, October 24, 2013
The Committee of Selection has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Pursuant to rule 12-2(1)(a) of the Rules of the Senate, your committee wishes to inform the Senate that it nominates the Honourable Senator Oliver as Speaker pro tempore.
Respectfully submitted,
ELIZABETH MARSHALL
Chair
With leave of the Senate
The Honourable Senator Marshall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier, that the report be adopted now.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
° ° °
The Honourable Senator Marshall presented the following:
Thursday, October 24, 2013
The Committee of Selection has the honour to present its
SECOND REPORT
Pursuant to rule 12-2(2) of the Rules of the Senate, your committee submits herewith the list of senators nominated by it to serve on the following committees:
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples
The Honourable Senators Beyak, Dyck, Lovelace Nicholas, Meredith, Munson, Ngo, Patterson, Raine, Sibbeston, Tannas, Unger and White.
Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry
The Honourable Senators Buth, Callbeck, Dagenais, Eaton, Maltais, Mercer, Merchant, Mockler, Ogilvie, Oh, Rivard and Tardif.
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce
The Honourable Senators Black, Gerstein, Greene, Hervieux-Payette, P.C., Maltais, Massicotte, Moore, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Ringuette, Rivard and Tkachuk.
Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources
The Honourable Senators Black, Boisvenu, Frum, MacDonald, Massicotte, Mitchell, Neufeld, Patterson, Ringuette, Seidman, Sibbeston and Wallace.
Standing Senate Committee on Fisheries and Oceans
The Honourable Senators Baker, P.C., Beyak, Hubley, Lovelace Nicholas, Manning, McInnis, Plett, Poirier, Raine, Robichaud, P.C., Stewart Olsen and Wells.
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
The Honourable Senators Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Dawson, Demers, Downe, Fortin-Duplessis, Housakos, Johnson, Oh, Robichaud, P.C., Smith (Cobourg), P.C. and Verner, P.C.
Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights
The Honourable Senators Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Eggleton, P.C., Hubley, Jaffer, Marshall, Meredith, Ngo and Seidman.
Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration
The Honourable Senators Campbell, Cordy, Comeau, P.C., Downe, Doyle, Furey, Johnson, Kinsella, Lang, LeBreton, P.C., Manning, Marshall, Munson, Smith (Saurel) and Tkachuk.
Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The Honourable Senators Baker, P.C., Batters, Boisvenu, Braley, Dagenais, Frum, Jaffer, Joyal, P.C., McIntyre, Rivest, Runciman and White.
Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament
The Honourable Senators Champagne, P.C., Cools, Mercer, Charette-Poulin and Rivard.
Standing Senate Committee on National Finance
The Honourable Senators Bellemare, Buth, Callbeck, Chaput, Day, Doyle, Gerstein, Hervieux-Payette, P.C., Mockler, Seth, Smith (Saurel) and Wells.
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence
The Honourable Senators Dallaire, Day, Lang, Manning, Mitchell, Nolin, Plett, Segal and Wells.
Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages
The Honourable Senators Beyak, Champagne, P.C., Chaput, Fortin-Duplessis, McIntyre, Poirier, Charette-Poulin, Tardif and White.
Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
The Honourable Senators Batters, Beyak, Braley, Comeau, P.C., Cools, Enverga, Furey, Jaffer, Joyal, P.C., Martin, McCoy, Nolin, Smith (Cobourg), P.C., Tannas and Wallace.
Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations
The Honourable Senators Batters, Campbell, Hervieux-Payette, P.C., Moore, Nancy Ruth, Runciman, Tannas and Unger.
Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology
The Honourable Senators Bellemare, Chaput, Cordy, Dyck, Eaton, Eggleton, P.C., Enverga, Ogilvie, Segal, Seidman, Seth and Stewart Olsen.
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The Honourable Senators Dawson, Demers, Eggleton, P.C., Greene, Housakos, MacDonald, Manning, McInnis, Mercer, Merchant, Plett and Verner, P.C.
Pursuant to rule 12-3(3) of the Rules of the Senate, the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C. (or Martin) and the Honourable Senator Cowan (or Fraser) are ex officio members of all committees except the Standing Committee on Conflict of Interest for Senators and the joint committees.
Respectfully submitted,
ELIZABETH MARSHALL
Chair
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Marshall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier, that the report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
SPEAKER'S RULING
During yesterday's sitting a point of order was raised as to whether the motion to suspend Senator Brazeau is final, or if the reference to rule 5-5(i) provides some mechanism to appeal or overturn the suspension. Our Rules define a point of order as "A complaint or question raised by a Senator who believes that the rules, practices or procedures of the Senate have been incorrectly applied or overlooked during the proceedings, either in the chamber or in committee.'' Upon review of yesterday's Debates, it appears that the issue is not a matter of order, but more appropriately one of debate. Consequently there is no point of order, and debate can proceed when the item is called.
SPEAKER'S RULING
At the start of debate on the motion proposing to suspend Senator Wallin, Senator Segal raised a point of order questioning the propriety of the proposal before the Senate. Senator Segal likened the motion to the ancient procedures for bills of attainder. He characterized the motion as arbitrary, and a violation of basic rights guaranteed under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He was also troubled by the fact that the Senate did not have the chance to consider the report of the Internal Economy Committee, presented in August before the prorogation of the previous session. In addition, the senator was concerned that the adoption of the motion could influence a police investigation. In summary, Senator Segal felt that the motion undermines due process and the presumption of innocence, basic Canadian principles; therefore the motion should not be considered by the Senate.
Honourable senators, the Leader of the Government, Senator Carignan, disagreed with Senator Segal. In his view, the Senate has the power, at its discretion, to suspend a member. This authority comes from section 18 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and has been implemented through the Parliament of Canada Act. He argued that the reproach of gross negligence mentioned in the motion is entirely different from any criminal proceeding. Instead, it would reflect, if the motion is adopted, the opinion of the Senate about negligent actions amounting to wilful disregard that has harmed the Senate itself.
After these interventions, both Senators Fraser and Comeau spoke. Senator Fraser recognized that the Senate can, after due consideration, suspend a member, but felt that the lack of an evidentiary basis makes it difficult to consider this motion properly. The prorogation of the last session prevented the Senate from considering the report of Internal Economy on the expenses of Senator Wallin, deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on August 13. Senator Comeau, however, emphasized that the report has been available to senators since it was made public. He also noted that the Internal Economy Committee, unlike other committees of the Senate, operates on an ongoing basis, and is unaffected by prorogation.
Honourable senators, when considering this issue we must be clear that one of the privileges and powers of the Senate is to suspend a member. Rule 15-2(1) states that "The Senate may order a leave of absence for or the suspension of a Senator where, in its judgment, there is sufficient cause.'' But this provision is not the source of this power, it is merely a recognition of its existence. It is an inherent power of a parliamentary body to regulate its own affairs and to discipline its members, which includes suspension. Bourinot, at page 64 of the fourth edition, states that "The right of a legislative body to suspend or expel a member for what is sufficient cause in its own judgment is undoubted. Such a power is absolutely necessary to the conservation of the dignity and usefulness of a body.''
In Canada, section 18 of the Constitution Act, 1867, allows Parliament to define the privileges, immunities and powers of the two federal houses, provided that they do not exceed those of the United Kingdom House of Commons. Under section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act, the Senate has the powers of the United Kingdom Commons as of 1867, plus such additional powers as are defined by law.
The United Kingdom House of Commons has long had the power to suspend members, exercising it as far back as 1641. Section 4 of the Parliament of Canada Act thus provides the Senate with the same power to suspend a member. This power is entirely independent of and separate from any criminal measures undertaken by the relevant authorities.
Suspension of a member is, without a doubt, a serious issue. It is not done lightly, and the Senate has only done it once, when Senator Thompson was suspended on February 19, 1998. His sessional allowance was also affected under regulations that are still in force and still have effect.
A decision by the Senate to exercise this power is, of course, a serious matter, to be dealt with during debate. It is through this process that honourable senators seek to convince each other whether a proposal should be accepted or not. In the end, the desirability of a proposal to suspend a senator will be decided by the Senate itself.
In a similar way, it is through debate that honourable senators set out the reasons, arguments and facts that favour the adoption or rejection of a suspension motion. If detailed consideration or evidence is required, the option of referring a question to committee — a proposal already made in the case of the motion relating to Senator Brazeau — is available.
It is not the role of the chair to comment on the substance or desirability of the motion that has been proposed to the Senate. The chair's authority is limited to determining whether the motion is in order in terms of procedure. The finding is that it is. Proceedings thus far have been in keeping with the Senate's authority, rules and practices. Debate on the question, when called, can proceed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills — Second Reading
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills — Second Reading
Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills — Second Reading
Orders No. 1 to 9 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees — Other
Consideration of the second report of the Committee of Selection (membership of Senate committees), presented in the Senate earlier this day.
The Honourable Senator Marshall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier, that the report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Fortin-Duplessis:
That, notwithstanding any usual practice or provision of the Rules, in order to protect the dignity and reputation of the Senate and public trust and confidence in Parliament, the Senate order a suspension for the Honourable Senator Brazeau for sufficient cause, considering his gross negligence in the management of his parliamentary resources, until such time as this order is rescinded pursuant to rule 5-5(i), and such suspension shall have the following conditions:
(a) Senator Brazeau, while under suspension, shall not receive any remuneration or reimbursement of expenses from the Senate, including any sessional allowance or living allowance;
(b) Senator Brazeau's right to the use of Senate resources, including funds, goods, services, premises, moving and transportation, travel and telecommunication expenses, shall be suspended for the duration of the suspension; and
(c) Senator Brazeau shall not receive any other benefit from the Senate during the duration of the suspension;
That, notwithstanding the provisions of this suspension motion, the Senate confirm that the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration retains the authority, as it considers appropriate, to take any action pertaining to the management of Senator Brazeau's office and personnel for the duration of the suspension;
And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cowan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:
That this motion be referred to our Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament, when and if the committee is formed, for consideration and report;
That Senator Brazeau be invited to appear; and in light of the public interest in this matter, pursuant to rule 14-7(2), proceedings be televised.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, that the motion be amended by replacing the words "Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament'' with the words "Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration''.
Debate.
Pursuant to rule 3-3(1), the Speaker left the Chair to resume the same at 8 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
Motions
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Fortin-Duplessis:
That, notwithstanding any usual practice or provision of the Rules, in order to protect the dignity and reputation of the Senate and public trust and confidence in Parliament, the Senate order a suspension for the Honourable Senator Brazeau for sufficient cause, considering his gross negligence in the management of his parliamentary resources, until such time as this order is rescinded pursuant to rule 5-5(i), and such suspension shall have the following conditions:
(a) Senator Brazeau, while under suspension, shall not receive any remuneration or reimbursement of expenses from the Senate, including any sessional allowance or living allowance;
(b) Senator Brazeau's right to the use of Senate resources, including funds, goods, services, premises, moving and transportation, travel and telecommunication expenses, shall be suspended for the duration of the suspension; and
(c) Senator Brazeau shall not receive any other benefit from the Senate during the duration of the suspension;
That, notwithstanding the provisions of this suspension motion, the Senate confirm that the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration retains the authority, as it considers appropriate, to take any action pertaining to the management of Senator Brazeau's office and personnel for the duration of the suspension;
And on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cowan, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser:
That this motion be referred to our Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament, when and if the committee is formed, for consideration and report;
That Senator Brazeau be invited to appear; and in light of the public interest in this matter, pursuant to rule 14-7(2), proceedings be televised;
And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Fraser, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson:
That the motion be amended by replacing the words "Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament'' with the words "Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration''.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Munson moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ringuette, that further debate on the motions be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
° ° °
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Poirier:
That, notwithstanding any usual practice or provision of the Rules, in order to protect the dignity and reputation of the Senate and public trust and confidence in Parliament, the Senate order a suspension for the Honourable Senator Wallin for sufficient cause, considering her gross negligence in the management of her parliamentary resources, until such time as this order is rescinded pursuant to rule 5-5(i), and such suspension shall have the following conditions:
(a) Senator Wallin, while under suspension, shall not receive any remuneration or reimbursement of expenses from the Senate, including any sessional allowance or living allowance;
(b) Senator Wallin's right to the use of Senate resources, including funds, goods, services, premises, moving and transportation, travel and telecommunication expenses, shall be suspended for the duration of the suspension; and
(c) Senator Wallin shall not receive any other benefit from the Senate during the duration of the suspension;
That, notwithstanding the provisions of this suspension motion, the Senate confirm that the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration retains the authority, as it considers appropriate, to take any action pertaining to the management of Senator Wallin's office and personnel for the duration of the suspension.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Cowan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
° ° °
Order No. 4 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 14-1(7):
Summaries of the Corporate Plan for 2013-2017 and of the Operating and Capital Budgets for 2013 of the Laurentian Pilotage Authority, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4).—Sessional Paper No. 2/41-95.
Reports of the Department of Western Economic Diversification for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2013, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2). —Sessional Paper No. 2/41-96.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Martin, moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 11:50 p.m. the Senate was continued until tomorrow at 9 a.m.)
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 12-5
Committee of Selection
The Honourable Senator Housakos replaced the Honourable Senator Martin (October 23, 2013).
The Honourable Senator Moore replaced the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (October 23, 2013).