2nd Session, 41st Parliament

Issue 118

Wednesday, February 18, 2015
1:30 p.m.

The Honourable Pierre Claude Nolin, Speaker

The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Baker, Batters, Bellemare, Beyak, Black, Boisvenu, Campbell, Carignan, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dawson, Day, Demers, Doyle, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Gerstein, Greene, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Johnson, Kenny, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McInnis, McIntyre, Merchant, Meredith, Mockler, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oh, Patterson, Plett, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Runciman, Seidman, Smith (Cobourg), Stewart Olsen, Tannas, Tardif, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Watt, Wells, White

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Andreychuk, Ataullahjan, Baker, Batters, Bellemare, Beyak, Black, Boisvenu, Campbell, Carignan, Chaput, Charette-Poulin, Cools, Cordy, Cowan, Dagenais, Dawson, Day, Demers, *Downe, Doyle, Eaton, Eggleton, Enverga, Fortin-Duplessis, Fraser, Frum, Gerstein, Greene, Hervieux-Payette, Housakos, Johnson, Kenny, Lang, LeBreton, MacDonald, Maltais, Manning, Marshall, Martin, Massicotte, McInnis, McIntyre, Merchant, Meredith, Mockler, Munson, Nancy Ruth, Neufeld, Ngo, Nolin, Ogilvie, Oh, Patterson, Plett, Raine, Ringuette, Rivard, Runciman, Seidman, Smith (Cobourg), Stewart Olsen, Tannas, Tardif, Unger, Verner, Wallace, Watt, Wells, White

The first list records senators present in the Senate Chamber during the course of the sitting.

An asterisk in the second list indicates a senator who, while not present during the sitting, was in attendance to business, as defined in subsections 8(2) and (3) of the Senators Attendance Policy.

PRAYERS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

Presenting or Tabling Reports from Committees

The Honourable Senator Mockler, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry, presented its seventh report (Bill C-18, An Act to amend certain Acts relating to agriculture and agri-food, without amendment).

The Honourable Senator Mockler moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rivard, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

First Reading of Commons Public Bills

A message was brought from the House of Commons with a Bill C-555, An Act respecting the Marine Mammal Regulations (seal fishery observation licence), to which it desires the concurrence of the Senate.

The bill was read the first time.

The Honourable Senator Martin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Marshall, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

SPEAKER'S RULING

Yesterday, immediately after Senator Carignan, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, moved his motion respecting security arrangements on Parliament Hill, Senator Cowan, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, raised a point of order. He was concerned that the motion attempts to delegate power to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in a way that is not permissible under the Parliament of Canada Act. He also argued that, if the motion is adopted, certain provisions in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act could actually have the effect of subjecting security in the parliamentary precinct to the control of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

Senator Carignan suggested that these concerns could be best dealt with through debate on the motion. He underscored that the motion specifically requires that any changes be made "while respecting the privileges, immunities and powers of the respective Houses.'' A respect for the rights of Parliament is therefore integral to the motion. He argued that it would allow the Speakers, working with the RCMP, to decide the most appropriate way to coordinate security. This would provide essential protection to parliamentarians. Senator Carignan rejected the idea that the Senate was abdicating its responsibility in relation to security. The motion would allow the establishment of a new security arrangement, and the two Speakers would continue to have a central role. Senator Carignan stated that "[i]t will be up to the two Speakers, in their discussions with the RCMP and the new unified security force, to negotiate the different systems so that they are accountable and report to'' the Speakers. Later he noted that the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration actually proposed a coordinated security system in the recent past. His arguments that the motion is in order were supported by Senator Martin when she intervened on the point of order and urged that debate be allowed to continue.

Senators Fraser, Ringuette, Cordy and Joyal also spoke, all questioning the propriety of the motion and supporting Senator Cowan's concern. Senator Fraser found the motion to be unclear, presenting fundamental problems, including her understanding that it would hand control of security over to the RCMP. Senator Cordy argued that the motion is disrespectful towards the Internal Economy Committee, the Senate and Parliament. Senator Joyal, for his part, refrained from saying whether the goal of the motion was desirable. He was, however, concerned about the process being followed. He questioned whether a motion, as opposed to legislative amendments, was the appropriate vehicle for such changes.

In considering this issue, a brief review of the history of security in the parliamentary precinct may be helpful. The provision of security on Parliament Hill can be divided into two broad periods. Until 1920, a contingent of the Dominion Police — one of the federal police forces — provided security for Parliament and the government buildings that are now the East and West Blocks. When the Dominion Police was united with the Royal Northwest Mounted Police to form the RCMP the task of protecting federal property was, in most cases, assumed by the new federal police force. Parliamentarians, however, decided that they no longer wished an official police presence within the buildings, resulting in the establishment of separate security services for each house. This was not done by statute. Security arrangements in and around Parliament have therefore not been static, but have shifted and evolved over the years. The motion at issue proposes further adjustments in these structures. Details, we have been given to understand, would be worked out by the two Speakers.

Senator Cowan's basic concern was that the motion would result in a delegation of authority falling outside the structure provided in the Parliament of Canada Act. Although the Speaker does not interpret matters of law, it would be helpful to put the relevant provisions on the record.

Section 19.3 of the act states that:

Subject to subsection 19.1(4), the [Internal Economy] Committee may act on all financial and administrative matters respecting

(a) the Senate, its premises, its services and its staff; and

(b) the members of the Senate.

Subsection 19.1(4) clarifies that:

In exercising its functions and powers under this Act, the Committee is subject to the rules, direction and control of the Senate.

The plain language of this provision makes clear that the Senate retains ultimate control over any powers exercised by the Internal Economy Committee. As such, the Senate itself remains master of its internal administration and its business. The Senate exercised this right in the past, by deciding to establish separate security services, and could do so again in the future if it so wished.

In terms of the strict mechanics of the motion, appropriate notice was given, and there is no obvious defect in its language or content, at least in terms of parliamentary practice as opposed to law, which is not within the Speaker's jurisdiction. The motion proposes that the Senate invite the RCMP to take a lead in operational security throughout the precinct, with details of arrangements to be worked out through careful discussions and negotiations. None of this abrogates the basic privilege of parliamentarians to have free access to their offices, to committees and to the Senate. Such arrangements could even be altered in the future if the Senate so decided. So the Senate would ultimately retain the rights and privileges required for it to function independently.

Some senators expressed concerns that the motion was unclear or incomplete. To the extent this may be the case, the correct vehicle to refine its content is to explain problems during debate and to bring forward amendments to provide greater clarity.

In terms of our Rules and procedure, there is no reason to block consideration of the motion. The ruling is therefore that the motion is in order and debate can continue.

Before continuing with the Orders of the Day, let me assure honourable senators that, if the motion passes, I will, in discussions and negotiations, take my role as custodian of the rights and privileges of the Senate and individual senators most seriously.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

Bills — Third Reading

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Bills — Second Reading

Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Reports of Committees — Other

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Motions

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carignan, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Marshall:

That the Senate, following the terrorist attack of October 22, 2014, recognize the necessity of fully integrated security throughout the Parliamentary precinct and the grounds of Parliament Hill, as recommended by the Auditor General in his 2012 report and as exists in other peer legislatures; and call on the Speaker, in coordination with his counterpart in the House of Commons, to invite, without delay, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to lead operational security throughout the Parliamentary precinct and the grounds of Parliament Hill, while respecting the privileges, immunities and powers of the respective Houses, and ensuring the continued employment of our existing and respected Parliamentary Security staff.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Cowan moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fraser, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Inquiries

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other

Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills — Second Reading

Orders No. 1 to 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

°    °    °

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Nancy Ruth, seconded by the Honourable Senator Patterson, for the second reading of Bill S-225, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (physician-assisted death).

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Plett moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fortin-Duplessis, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

°    °    °

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Segal, seconded by the Honourable Senator Greene, for the second reading of Bill S-220, An Act to establish the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament.

The Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Commons Public Bills — Second Reading

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Moore, seconded by the Honourable Senator Dawson, for the second reading of Bill C-247, An Act to provide that the Department of Employment and Social Development is the main point of contact with the Government of Canada in respect of the death of a Canadian citizen or resident.

After debate,

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Munson, that the bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

°    °    °

Orders No. 2 to 4 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Reports of Committees — Other

Consideration of the eighth report of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples entitled: Housing on First Nation Reserves: Challenges and Successes, tabled in the Senate on February 17, 2015.

After debate,

The Honourable Senator Tannas moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Oh, that further debate on the consideration of the report be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

°    °    °

Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

Motions

Orders No. 9, 56, 60, 66, 47, 74, 79, 62, 73 and 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

°    °    °

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Downe, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chaput:

That the Senate call upon the Members of the House of Commons of the Parliament of Canada to join the Senate in its efforts to increase transparency by acknowledging the longstanding request of current and former Auditors General of Canada to examine the accounts of both Houses of Parliament, and thereby inviting the Auditor General of Canada to conduct a comprehensive audit of House of Commons expenses, including Members' expenses, and

That the audits of the House of Commons and the Senate be conducted concurrently, and the results for both Chambers of Parliament be published at the same time.

The Honourable Senator Greene moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Demers, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Inquiries

Orders No. 28, 13, 41, 44, 14, 42, 43, 47, 29, 20, 36, 27, 33, 45, 34, 15, 17, 26, 18, 19 and 21 were called and postponed until the next sitting.

REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 14-1(7):

Copy of Order in Council P.C. 2014-1379 dated December 10, 2014, directing that the Canada Lands Company Limited implement pension plan reforms, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 89(4).—Sessional Paper No. 2/41-1054.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Martin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Marshall:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

(Accordingly, at 3:59 p.m. the Senate was continued until tomorrow at 1:30 p.m.)

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 12-5

Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry

The Honourable Senator Moore replaced the Honourable Senator Campbell (February 18, 2015).

Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce

The Honourable Senator Mockler replaced the Honourable Senator Tkachuk (February 17, 2015).

Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration

The Honourable Senator Charette-Poulin replaced the Honourable Senator Furey (February 18, 2015).

The Honourable Senator Dawson replaced the Honourable Senator Downe (February 18, 2015).

The Honourable Senator Fraser replaced the Honourable Senator Campbell (February 18, 2015).

Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs

The Honourable Senator Fraser replaced the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C. (February 18, 2015).

The Honourable Senator Cowan replaced the Honourable Senator Jaffer (February 18, 2015).

Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence

The Honourable Senator Mitchell replaced the Honourable Senator Charette-Poulin (February 18, 2015).

Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications

The Honourable Senator Verner, P.C., replaced the Honourable Senator Batters (February 17, 2015).