Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and
Constitutional Affairs
Issue 44 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, December 12, 1996
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, to which was referred Bill C-63, to amend the Canada Elections Act, the Parliament of Canada Act and the Referendum Act, met this day at 10:31 a.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Sharon Carstairs (Chair) in the Chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Our witness is Mr. Côté, the Chief Electoral Officer of the Province of Quebec. Welcome, Mr. Côté. Please begin your presentation.
Mr. Pierre-F. Côté, Chief Electoral Officer (Quebec), President of the Commission de la représentation électorale: Madam Chair, I am pleased to appear before the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs which is considering Bill C-63, an Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Referendum Act. This is the second opportunity that I have had to speak with members of Parliament on this bill, as I appeared on October 31st of this year before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.
First of all, I would like to situate my presentation in context. To do so, I would like briefly to remind you of the following facts: After more than fifteen years of reflection and various attempts to rationalize the procedure for drawing up lists of electors, the Quebec National Assembly passed, in June 1995, an Act to establish the permanent list of electors to be used in all provincial, municipal and school board elections. The Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec was assigned the responsibility of establishing and updating this list. The permanent list of electors is made up of a Register of Electors, or the Register, established on the basis of the information collected during the September 1995 enumeration in preparation for the referendum, and a Register of territories. This enumeration, in September 1995, was conducted by enumerators recommended by the political parties represented in the National Assembly. There were always two enumerators: 20,000 polling divisions and 40,000 enumerators, one recommended by the Liberal party and the other by the Parti québécois.
This enumeration was followed by a revision carried out by boards of revision whose members were likewise recommended by the two national committees, the YES Committee and the NO Committee. Among the members of the board, again, recommendations were made by the Liberal Party and by the Parti québécois.
Work on this list began in the fall of 1995 and must be completed by no later than May 1, 1997, thus in just a few months' time.
In the course of our efforts to establish and implement the permanent list of electors, we have encountered and continue to encounter numerous difficulties, for which we have had to devise appropriate solutions, as we are, so to speak, on unknown terrain.
At the same time, we are becoming stronger and more sophisticated as our expertise develops. It is this expertise that I am fully prepared to share with you today. Accordingly, as I stated earlier, I will endeavour to answer as best I can all the questions you may put to me. I am accompanied by several colleagues from my office: Ms. Francine Barry, a member of our Legal Affairs Branch and Mr. Jacques Drouin, responsible for polling, accompanied by Mr. Jean Poirier, who is immediately responsible for the establishment of the list, and Ms. Thérèse Fortier, Director of Communications.
You will understand that as I am the person in charge of administering an act addressed to the exercise of the democratic rights of all Quebec electors and as I am accountable for my actions to the 125 members of the National Assembly, I must be circumspect when answering any question that might be political in nature.
Before moving on to the question-and-answer period, I would like to briefly review the basic principles that, in my opinion, must be taken into consideration when establishing and maintaining a permanent list of electors, whether provincial or federal, of course.
First, the accuracy and comprehensiveness of the basic data in such a list: given name, surname, sex, date of birth and civic address -- in Quebec, it is civic address, while in Canada it is "main residence" -- including the postal code and mailing address, where applicable.
Secondly, respect for the concept of qualified elector specific to each jurisdiction for which a list must be prepared.
For example, the six-month domicile requirement in the Quebec legislation, which is not found in the Canada Elections Act would, in our opinion, based on the studies we have conducted of transfers of Canadians who live in other provinces and come to live in Quebec, affect no more than about 10,000 persons within a year. These persons would be qualified electors federally but not provincially, given the six-month requirement; this is 2/10ths of 1 per cent of all Quebec electors.
The procedures for revising the list during an election period would enable these tens of thousands of people to register and exercise their right to vote.
Thirdly, respect for an elector's decision to be or not to be registered on the lists of electors: no one is obliged -- I do not think it is also the case federally -- to have his or her name on the list of electors. A person may choose not to have his name on the list of electors.
Fourthly, the establishment of a procedure to update the information concerning each elector entered on the permanent list of electors; this procedure must be reliable, complete, rapid and flexible.
These principles served as guidelines when the Quebec legislation was being developed and continue to guide us in the implementation of each of the terms and operating procedures.
Finally, allow me to draw attention to some provisions of Bill C-63 which raise some questions in my mind.
On the establishment of the Register of Electors, the bill stipulated that this Register was to be established from a general enumeration. An amendment to clause 71.011, adopted by the House of Commons, further allows the Register to be compiled from a provincial list of electors, provided this list was compiled through an enumeration carried out within the framework of an electoral event held less than one year prior to the date of the general enumeration.
This provision, as it is currently worded, rules out using Quebec's list of electors. Yet if the general enumeration takes place in April 1997 -- the federal general enumeration -- Quebec's permanent list of electors will be available. This list, it must be recalled, will in April include up-to-date information on those electors who were registered on the list used in the referendum, as well as on everyone who has become a qualified elector since then and who still wishes to be registered.
Again, I am surprised that the legislator has not taken into account the advantages that would lie in using Quebec's permanent list of electors to establish the Register of Electors. Such an approach would not only result in substantial savings but would ensure a high level of accuracy in the information on those electors. What this means is that if a federal enumeration is held in April, the necessary consequence, if you follow my reasoning, would be an amendment to clause 71.011 to avoid having a federal enumeration in Quebec in order to use Quebec's permanent list of electors.
As for the procedure for updating the Register, the bill stipulates that the Register shall be updated from information that the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada receives from provincial bodies such as the SAAQ, for example -- in the various provinces, the bodies responsible for issuing drivers' licences -- provided that the bodies in question consent to such a transfer of information. You should be aware that in Quebec, the bodies that hold personal information are subject to highly restrictive provisions governing the exchange of such information. As a general rule, a body may use or disclose personal information only for the purposes for which it was collected. However, when the bill on the establishment of the permanent list of electors was being enacted, the Quebec legislature thought that the information contained in the provincial list of electors could be useful in compiling a federal list and thus introduced a specific provision, section 40.42, allowing an agreement to be signed to that effect between the Chief Electoral Officer in Quebec and his federal counterpart. It seems to me, therefore, that preference should be given to this approach when updating the information concerning Quebec electors.
If Quebec's permanent list of electors were used to compile the Register -- so there would be no enumeration in Quebec -- the updating procedure would be simplified even further, since we would simply have to send the Chief Electoral Officer the updates we ourselves had made -- on a monthly basis, beginning in May -- to our permanent lists.
If the Quebec part of the Register is compiled from the general enumeration rather than Quebec's permanent list, it could be updated using information supplied by the Chief Electoral Officer to his federal counterpart. However, the two lists would first have to be cross-referenced in order to identify common electors for whom the information would be updated, and this would require knowing the date of birth of the registered electors since this is done on an automated basis. That is the major item that facilitates the comparison.
This operation would be essential, regardless of which body was responsible for supplying the updated information. Based on the experience we are now having in cross-checking the referendum electoral list with the list of beneficiaries of the Régie de l'assurance-maladie du Québec, I can assure you this is a complex and costly operation requiring a lot of work.
We have done the cross-referencing. We will be completing it in January. In January and February we will be updating the list so that in April we will have a full and consistent list of electors. The updating will cover everyone who, since September 1995 or the 1995 referendum, has, in the first place, reached the age of 18, and thus is a qualified elector if he or she wishes to be on the list, or, secondly, who has changed his or her address since September 1995 and before February.
This updating, which will be fairly substantial in January or February, will subsequently be an ongoing operation. We will always have people -- electors at their civic address, at their principal residence -- registered on the list. Obviously, this entire operation could be avoided federally if the Register was compiled from Quebec's permanent list.
Needless to say, once Bill C-63 has been assented to, agreements concerning transfers between the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec and the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, whether for establishing or updating the Register, can be developed and signed in time to meet the foreseeable deadlines.
Incidentally, we are about to sign an agreement with the federal Department of Citizenship and Immigration concerning new Canadian citizens to the degree that they qualify as electors.
Some people have expressed concerns about using Quebec's permanent list of electors to compile the federal Register of Electors in view of the existing differences in the boundaries of federal and provincial polling divisions.
Provincially, there are 125 constituencies and 20,000 polling divisions; federally there are 75 constituencies and, I think, 12,000 or 15,000 [polling divisions]; there is a difference of 7,000 or 8,000 between the two. It can be said, perhaps, that this creates some problems. In my opinion, it is a technical problem that can be settled relatively easily. It means taking the Quebec electors and putting them within the proper territorial boundaries of the federal constituencies.
In light of the progress that has been made and the expertise developed in the offices of both the Chief Electoral Officer in Quebec and Elections Canada (because we have ongoing discussions with Elections Canada), several avenues are open to us, including the use of a software program, for example, to match addresses with a given polling division -- to put the right elector at the right address in the right polling division. Incidentally, we had an opportunity to conduct a successful experiment with this technology when drawing up the lists that were to be used experimentally in the municipal elections in more than 150 municipalities last November.
We are sure that the pooling of our resources will make it possible to identify and implement the most appropriate solution in a timely fashion, provided that the work begins at the earliest opportunity.
If I may summarize, there are two major questions: one, the establishment of the list, the use of the Quebec list, or an enumeration; two, updating, two possibilities: the updating is done either from the enumeration or from the Quebec list.
If it is done from the Quebec list, the operation will be all the easier, since it will be the same one we will be doing. If it is done from the federal enumeration, the updating of the federal list will have to be done not through agreements between Elections Canada and the provincial agencies but through an agreement between Elections Canada and the Chief Electoral Officer.
The main problem that will be encountered, as I said, in the establishment of the Register is in the grouping: matching the list of electors with another list that enables us to see whether everyone is correctly situated, correctly located and in the same way. Obviously, as I also stated, once you have settled all of this definitively in terms of legislation, we are prepared to cooperate.
Madam Chair, thank you. I hope I have been clear, and I am prepared to answer your questions.
Senator Gigantès: Madam Chair, I thought I had a question but Mr. Côté has already answered it.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: If I correctly understood Mr. Côté, the Quebec government is prepared to cooperate with Mr. Kingsley and his team only by allowing them to consult the permanent list, and not to have access to other databanks he thinks he needs in order to ensure that the permanent Register they will have to establish is up to date as it ought to be. Have I correctly interpreted what you said?
Mr. Côté: Senator Lynch-Staunton, that is in the case of the updating. And in the case of the updating, what is the information that has to be obtained? I know that Elections Canada has signed agreements with some provincial agencies such as, for example, those that have information concerning vehicle licences. But, to take the example in Quebec, we have an answer, there are about 4,200,000 people in the motor vehicle registry. There are 5,070,000 electors. Some are lost along the way.
Why are we saying that you should deal with the Quebec list? Because that list is not based solely on the list of drivers' licences, but it is based on the Régie de l'assurance-maladie. The provincial agencies in Quebec provide the Régie de l'assurance-maladie with all address changes, it is centralized.
The Régie de l'assurance-maladie du Quebec is the entire population, there is no one who does not have his or her health insurance card. It is a databank which, in terms of addresses, and this is the main problem we encounter, is the most constantly updated. We are going to get regularly from the Régie de l'assurance-maladie du Quebec, it is in the legislation but is the Régie that supplies us with the addresses. I want to specify that we do not have access to the Régie's files. We will get all changes of address and also make it our obligation to ask the electors to inform us of their changes of address.
As agency why do we say it is the Chief Electoral Officer? Because, instead of a provincial agency, we are going to be in possession of all the relevant and most up-to-date data. That is why we say that in regard to the updating of the federal list we are prepared to supply you regularly with the provincial list because it will be up to date. It will be in the forefront of all the other agencies with which you might be dealing.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: There appears to be some discrepancy between the demands of Elections Canada and what the Quebec government would allow it to have access to. We were clearly told that Elections Canada would like to have some agreements with the provinces and territories to get direct access to automobile registrations and licences. You reply that you do not see the need to go searching through these files when all the information will be concentrated in Quebec's permanent list. Is that correct?
Mr. Côté: That is correct.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: In its news release, the government clearly told us it would like to have access to Revenue Canada --
[English]
-- Citizenship and Immigration, data from provincial registrars of vital statistics and provincial registrars of drivers' licences and vehicle licences.
The permanent register would also be augmented by proven "provincial electoral lists."
[Translation]
One would say that the lists of electors come last insofar as where they are going first for information is concerned. The word "proven" means that the list should be consistent with the standards laid down for drawing up their own list. Do you see any conflict that might confirm that, no, your list is not "proven", so it is necessary to go further and go to the motor vehicles board?
Mr. Côté: I was unaware of that news release and its clarification that you cite. I do not understand what it might mean in regard to the Quebec list, that it be a "proven" list, is a very good list.
On the other hand, let us assume that Elections Canada is told: you are going to enter into an agreement with the Société d'assurance-automobile du Québec, which issues the licences, I don't understand why you would prefer that system, which reaches 4,200,000 people, to another system that is more adequate and more up to date, which allows access to 5,070,000 electors. It is not because we are opposed to there being access to some other government agency, it is because our list is going to be better, more up to date and more complete.
In the first place, what is the quality of this Quebec list of electors? Is it of inferior or superior quality? I think I have demonstrated to you in my written remarks how it was compiled. It is a list that was compiled in a bipartisan fashion. It was also approved by all the members of the National Assembly.
Secondly, when it was used in the 1995 referendum, over 93 per cent of the registered electors exercised their right to vote. To date we have not received any major challenge in any way concerning the list itself. There has never been any remark, observation or comment concerning the validity, value and quality of the Quebec list.
Thirdly, as we are now in the process of compiling this list of electors, we are very concerned by the fact that as of May, for example, a municipal council, a school board, the government of Quebec will be able to come to us and say: "We want to hold a by-election, a general election in this or that jurisdiction." We will, as provided, have to supply them within a few days with the list of electors for this electoral event. Our obligation is to supply the best possible list, to have the highest quality list possible.
How can corrections be made? Obviously, there may be some errors. How can we ensure that all electors are going to be able to exercise their right to vote without any doubt? The first thing is the extremely high quality of our list; the second is the revision procedure which is provided by each electoral event. A board of revision has the power to register, correct or strike out a person's name. So our operation as a whole is designed to obtain a list of electors of extremely high quality.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: When you were doing the traditional door-to-door enumeration, what was on the final list, the percentage of eligible electors who were registered?
We are told that in the federal government, once the revision is completed, 95 per cent of Canadians who are eligible to vote are registered on the list. Is the success rate similar in Quebec?
Mr. Côté: It's the same proportion.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: It's the same proportion. Do you think that with a permanent list you can maintain this 95-per-cent success rate or even increase it?
Mr. Côté: We are going to do everything we can to maintain it. I think there is only one problem we will encounter in the functioning of a permanent list of electors. Notwithstanding everything I described, the mechanisms and bodies of the Régie de l'assurance-maladie and the procedure for keeping it up to date, and this will be done continually, there is a change in mentality among the voters and it will be the same phenomenon in the rest of Canada. There will no longer be a permanent list of electors, by definition as a consequence there will no longer be an enumeration.
But Canadians are used to a door-to-door enumeration, and this will no longer exist. So there is a mentality that is going to change gradually, which is a greater accountability of all citizens. Since we have such a vast reservoir of information with the Régie de l'assurance-maladie, and since we are going to have all the information from the Department of Citizenship for all the new Canadians -- I will take this example which will clearly illustrate my point -- whenever someone obtains his citizenship certificate, the Department of Citizenship will send us the information, we will write to the person and tell him: "Here is the information we have, we realize that you qualify as an elector, do you want your name to be on the list?" And we ask him to provide us with a copy of his citizenship certificate, and this person will be registered.
I think that by proceeding in that way, we are going to have a very high quality updated list. Why will we not lose a lot? Not only because the electors have a responsibility that they will develop over time of notifying us, for example, of their changes of address, but above all because there is another mechanism that enables the interested and involved political parties to intervene, when the list is being revised. When the election arrives, we have a large number of review boards throughout the whole of Quebec. These review boards are composed of people recommended by the parties. The list of electors is given to the parties.
So there is a large number of interested people who are involved, and who certainly want to check whether the list is adequate. If, for example, a registration is missing or there is some error and a correction is in order, or if someone has died and has not been removed from the list, it is the responsibility of the review board. So for the election itself, I am convinced that we are going to have a list of equal quality with what we had in the most recent referendum in Quebec.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: To come back to my major concern, which is based on my last question, it is worth ensuring, whatever the enumeration method that is used, that all possible or potential electors are on the list, that is, to maintain the 95 per cent which is the highest level in the world, from what I am told, since this is not done elsewhere.
We are being asked to adopt a bill which, if it is adopted, provides that a final traditional enumeration will be made in April. It would not be done in the provinces where there was a similar enumeration within the previous 12 months. In Alberta and Prince Edward Island we are told that if the Chief Electoral Officer is satisfied with the lists that were prepared at least 12 months earlier in those two provinces it will not be necessary to conduct a federal enumeration, Your permanent list, although it should not be ready before May 1 from what you --
Mr. Côté: During April.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Yes, you have until May 1, 1997, but it will be ready in April?
Mr. Côté: We could provide it to the federal government during April. Let us assume that the enumeration takes place on April 15, we would be able to supply you with a list. The major updating operation that we are going to conduct in January and February should enable us to deliver the results to you. When I say at the end of April, it is because the end of April is the deadline for us. If the federal enumeration in Canada is held in April, we are saying that we will be able to supply you with the Quebec list during April.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Have there been discussions between Elections Canada and your office to ensure that this list can be used and to eliminate another enumeration that would appear to be unnecessary?
Mr. Côté: What I have understood from Elections Canada during our most recent discussions is the decision of the House of Commons to proceed like that and not to use the Quebec list.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: I don't understand, because we were told that Elections Canada could use some lists already compiled by Alberta and Prince Edward Island. Why would Quebec be an exception to this rule?
Mr. Côté: That is one of the major reasons why I am trying to explain to you what is happening, I completely fail to understand it.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: I share that incomprehension with you. Were you told that your list was not or would not be of adequate quality? I think that, on the basis of the bill, the federal government would be entitled to use it, and they are entitled to refuse it, too.
Mr. Côté: No one has ever stated to me or to anyone in my office, on the part of any federal authority, that our list was not of adequate quality, never. I would have had a fairly clear response, we would have had a frank exchange. If someone ventures to say that the list compiled in Quebec is not of adequate quality, I would like him to provide some clear evidence. Based on how we are proceeding, I can tell you that it is of adequate quality.
Senator Nolin: You take it personally, in other words.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: If the federal government wants to use your list but also wants to have access to other data such as the data of the motor vehicles and drivers' licences registry, would Canada be allowed such access in the agreement that would be signed between Quebec and the federal government? Or are you insisting, as you seem to be saying, that the permanent list has its data, it is not necessary to go elsewhere, to search within that list?
Mr. Côté: As you know, I am answerable for what I do to the members of the National Assembly, and I ensure that the laws are enforced. I must tell you two things in that regard: in the present elections act, there is a section which states that I may enter into agreements with Elections Canada and provide them with information on our list.
If we were told that, no, they don't want to deal with the Chief Electoral Officer of Quebec, they want to deal with the SAAQ, that would mean that the government would have to amend these laws, as I state in my written remarks. But why deal with an agency that is going to provide less information than I can supply? That is what I do not understand.
[English]
The Chair: Perhaps, Senator Bryden, you could include in your question that the principle behind this was that the first list would have to be prepared by door-to-door enumeration, and the only exception to that would be in provinces where a door-to-door enumeration had been done within a calendar year. That was my understanding.
Senator Bryden: Mr. Côté, I have a number of questions. However, I wish to start by saying that what you have indicated to us here today about your dealings and discussions with Elections Canada and Mr. Kingsley confirmed the position he took vis-à-vis his dealings with you when he was before this committee.
Mr. Côté: I do not know what he said before this committee. I did not read it.
Senator Bryden: They confirmed what you were saying, that discussions occurred, that there was cooperation, and that if the bill passes, indeed, you are prepared to act.
Perhaps I should first deal with a point that Senator Lynch-Staunton raised. In listing where Elections Canada would get their information to keep their list up to date, he listed vital statistics, drivers licenses, and registers of electors in those provinces which kept them. I have never had the impression that it was some kind of priority list. It is my understanding that they are listed in that fashion because few provinces, at this time, have a register of electors. In updating the list, Elections Canada took the position that they would use the information from registers of electors which were up to date, such as you will have in Quebec at some point, and as is the case in Prince Edward Island and Alberta.
I just want to clear that up. There was never any indication that they would need to go beyond the accuracy of your list in order to determine the dates of birth and so on.
Mr. Côté: I agree with you. I received a phone call a few days ago from Mr. Kingsley telling me that, for the updating of the list, he will make an agreement with my office.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: In the news release of Minister Gray dated October 21, 1996, in which he explains the sources which the Government of Canada would like in order to establish the permanent list, the names, addresses and dates of birth from income tax returns, Revenue Canada, et cetera, he goes on to say that the permanent register would also be augmented -- so this is supplementary information -- by "proven provincial electoral lists." Whatever the definition of "proven" is, the proven provincial electoral lists are secondary in terms of furnishing information to those other sources.
Senator Bryden: I have a similar impression from Mr. Kingsley.
In your reference to an amendment to section 71.1, it is critical to include the Quebec list along with those of Prince Edward Island and Alberta so that there is no reflection on the accuracy of your list. In Prince Edward Island and Alberta the jurisdictions match perfectly. That is, the provincial electoral districts coincide exactly with the federal ones. As you have suggested, the technology is available to transpose that information. It takes a couple of months to do it, according to the information I have from Elections Canada. They must develop the necessary database to make the transposition.
You referred, Mr. Coté, to the fact that you had a trial run of this in a municipal election using your list. I must be cautious here. That was not a particularly automatic and easy experience, if the information I read is correct. You used a private company that had a municipal database in making the transfer of your list to the municipalities. I am not questioning any of the politics involved in this, but even in using that existing database much had to be done manually. Is my understanding reasonably correct?
Mr. Côté: I hope I understand correctly your question. In the last municipal election, first of all, the voters list was not totally complete. That would be done in a few months. So we decided to do an experiment with the 150 municipalities.
Senator Bryden: How many voters were there?
Mr. Côté: I think there were 500,000. It is true that we hired a private company to do that. That company was working with us for a while and had a lot of experience in the field.
The main problem, we think -- in fact we are sure, because this must be ready by next April -- is in what we call in French l'appariement, which means that we have to match the electors with the right electoral territories. To that end we use a logiciel or, in English, some specific computer software.
In any case, there was not much work involved in that experiment, because the matching of our list with the municipal polling division was almost correct. I say "almost correct", because if I told you that it was 100 per cent correct, you would think I was making a joke. We were quite satisfied with that process.
Senator Bryden: I understand that your list is compiled electronically and it is based numerically or is based on names. It is not geographically based. My question, to cut to the chase, as we say in English, is this: Do you have a geotechnical database to apply to your list of electors?
I understand that to develop that type of base for Alberta and Prince Edward Island, which are much smaller, and to make the transfer, will take two months. The technology is there, and the two months would be in the time frame between January 1 and April 1. However, to develop the geotechnical database for Quebec to make the same transfer will take eight to nine months.
One of the reasons that Quebec is not included in section 71.1 is that, although you will have an accurate list, to make it available to be used in a federal election will take too long. The technological database certainly can be developed; the technology is there, and you are absolutely accurate. However, because of the size of the population, it will take eight or nine months to get that data to the point where you can make that match. Is that reasonably accurate?
Mr. Côté: Well, I did not know about the other provinces. This is the first time I have heard that the possibility to make that match would take two months. I can remember, though, someone telling me that for Quebec it would take eight months to do that. However, in my opinion, I think two months is a good length of time to be able to transfer the voters list into the geographical section. It is a technical question, and right now we have a lot of experience in that field. We are under an obligation to match the electors with the right polling divisions, and we have the software and all the mechanisms in place to do so. We are doing that right now.
Senator Bryden: Those facts make it possible, on the revision of Election Canada's list, to be able to rely on the information you have once they are in the right division and the person is at the right address and is the right age. There is no problem with that at all.
I do not know if you have your technical experts here, but I believe the technical experts are readily available from Elections Canada, and I gather that they have indicated that the initial make-up of the list and the transfer or plugging in of the data, given the size and the fact that the data platforms are not the same, will take a reasonable amount of time. If you are three or four times as large both geographically and population-wise, it will take more time to get the data in place. There is no difference in the system; you are absolutely correct; the technology is there. However, in order to have a usable list to run a federal election in Quebec using your list and trying to use technology to overlay it, if we started in April, it would be at least nine months before that information would be usable.
Mr. Côté: It is difficult for me to comment on the whole process. As you said, there is a geotechnical process. The problem is quite simple, and the solution is to find a way to put the right elector at the right place.
I differ with Mr. Kingsley with respect to the number of months it may take. I am saying that I think it can be done more quickly than eight months.
Senator Gigantès: I have seen software that can do this much more quickly than you think, Senator Bryden. I can set up a demonstration for you. It exists.
Senator Bryden: Thank you, senator.
I should like to make two other points.
Mr. Kingsley indicates, as you have, that getting a permanent register of electors and a continuous updating will be financially beneficial to all parties concerned. We heard it from British Columbia yesterday. There is tremendous interest in getting a federal list to benefit economies of scale. I think what you have said and what was said yesterday supports the fact that the money to be saved can be used by governments for other purposes if this happens. There is no disagreement there.
The one other question I ask -- because you have had experience with this and we were struggling with this yesterday and the day before -- relates to the use of the date of birth. It is my understanding that Bill C-63, after amendment, will require enumerators to ask for the date of birth, but a person who refuses to give the date of birth is not taken off the registry. I believe that is the same in Quebec. How many dates of birth end up not being given? Is it a big concern? Someone said that that would mean you would not have your benchmark.
Mr. Côté: People are free to give their date of birth or not. We had a list of more than 5 million voters. Of that number, 9,000 refused.
Senator Bryden: That is all?
Mr. Côté: That is all. However, the 9,000 were not taken off the list. Each case was studied by a revision board, which had all the personnel and the means to ask that person, "Please give us your date of birth." That is a basic requirement in order to have things computerized.
Senator Bryden: But that margin of missing information is very small.
Mr. Côté: Correct.
[Translation]
Senator Pearson: My question is fairly short because it was asked earlier by Senator Bryden. We are very glad you are here. It is of great assistance to us. What you have suggested in order to forestall expenses, by using your list that is already prepared, it will be the same thing for British Columbia, I assume.
Mr. Côté: For the savings.
Senator Pearson: You suggested that it might not be necessary for the federal government to conduct an enumeration in April in Quebec because you will have a list that is already prepared. It is the same thing in British Columbia.
Mr. Côté: What I know about British Columbia is that they have had a permanent list for many years. If it is compatible, if it is usable, if it fulfils all the other requirements, it could be the same thing.
Senator Prud'homme: I am going to ask a question rather than made a long speech on the merits or lack thereof of the permanent list. Can you register on election day in Quebec?
Mr. Côté: No.
Senator Prud'homme: What is the maximum period prior to the election, how many days in advance can you register your name? This confirms why I was against.
Mr. Côté: An election is always held on a Monday. The final day for registration is the preceding Thursday, but with a board of review. Personally, I would not be in favour of allowing registration of an elector on the day of the vote. There was an article recently in the New York Times concerning an experiment in Maine. It can lead voters to rely on that system and to clog the electoral system. That is not the worst thing, in my view. The worst thing is to ensure that on voting day the person who has the requisite qualifications is registered because we don't have measures of verification at the polling station. The measures of verification are more difficult, while when it is on the preceding Wednesday, it is a board of review that decides.
Senator Prud'homme: You say you can, you say you are able, obviously, through the automobile registrations, to get almost four million people, which is worth while as an initial list, it is already 80 per cent of the people. However, you say you have something even more attractive, health insurance. But in health insurance it is less accurate; it may be more complete. But you are unable to know, for example, in a neighbourhood like mine where I was an MP for 30 years, Park Extension, which you are well acquainted with, but not for the reasons that they think but for some historical reasons, a long time ago, 36 years ago, is it not, you were not around when we worked on some things.
How do you know from the automobile and health insurance lists whether those people are Canadian citizens or not, it is not indicated, you are not in a position to know.
Mr. Côté: The first contact with the Régie de l'assurance-maladie was to take our list and compare it. It is not initially the health insurance list. It is the list of electors compiled door-to-door. This operation enabled us to realize this: they have more names than we have on our list, they have the children under the age of 18, they have more.
Are there a lot of names where there is a conflict? For example, is there an inversion in the address? Is the name written down wrong? Is the age wrongly indicated?
What we are going to be doing in January is to take this percentage of people concerning whom there may be questions, what we call the cross-referencing with the list, and write to these people: You are registered on the list of electors in such and such a way. We have reason to believe, however, that your name, instead of being written Tremblay with two b's or one, there is an inversion in the name or it is wrongly written, that you will be registered in this or that way, or the address is wrong, it is even easier. For example, you will have an address on the list of electors, and at the Régie it is different. It may, exceptionally, be the same given name, same surname, same date of birth but perhaps not the same address, unless it is twins who are still living at the same address. There must be one or two, I suppose.
We will write to the elector, and tell him that he is registered on the list in this or that way, that we have some indication that there is a difference somewhere. We will ask him to return the form to us and tell us correctly what it is and, where necessary, with the documentation in support, for example, on the issue of citizenship. We ask ourselves some questions. We do not challenge the 5,000,070 names that we have in regard to Canadian citizenship. We do not start all over. The list that is established, because it establishes how the basic list is through the enumeration but also through the revision, is in order. It fulfils all the requirements.
In those cases where there are some questions, we will question people. Let us suppose that there are some who do not answer, whom we do not contact. We will take that list of names and turn it over to a board of revision which, when an election is called, will summon these people and correct or add or remove.
But we do not remove them. There is not one elector who is registered on the list of electors in the referendum who will be removed by us.
Senator Prud'homme: You are in a position to have a final list. You have one at present that you are continuing to revise. How is it revised? Assuming there was an election, they make you work a bit quickly because they would want it to be ready at the end of April because there are political deadlines, so it is useful. How do you proceed in the case of deaths, new Canadian citizens and the new electors who are 18 years of age? In the case of the new Canadians, you have to go through the Department of Citizenship. There are some questions I am asking you to which I know the answer. I would like to have it on the record.
Mr. Côté: There are four cases. You mentioned three. The persons who reach the age of 18, persons who are deceased, new citizens and those who change their address.
The 18 year-olds, we are going to get them systematically one or two months before their birthday so we can write to the young people who have reached 18: You are now 18, we think you fulfil all the conditions to be electors, do you want to let us know whether your name is registered. If you doubt his or her qualification as an elector, you ask for supporting documents.
In the case of deceased persons, this is the area in which we are fastest. We do not contact anyone, they are no longer on the list.
Senator Prud'homme: Because you have the list of the deceased.
Mr. Côté: The Régie has it, and it has some information from the other agencies such as the Register of Civil Status, the Régie des rentes and the SAAQ.
The third case is citizenship. Since we are going to systematically and regularly get all the new Canadian citizens domiciled in Quebec, as soon as we get this information from the Department of Citizenship we will write to this person: "Here is the information we have. Please send us this or that item of confirmation. Do you want your name to be on the list, the municipal, provincial and school board list?" They can choose to be on only one, it is their choice. You can choose to be on one of the three lists. We receive the supporting documents. Everything is in order. The person is registered.
As to changes of address, there are at least 800,000 changes of address every year in Quebec. We anticipate that we will be processing one million of them in February. Why? Because in the time between when the list was compiled in September and February, about one million people have changed their address. What are we going to do? We are going to write to all these people and tell them we have information concerning a change of address and ask them to confirm the address of their new domicile.
So these two operations will be conducted in January and February. So that in April, from the basic list and these operations concerning the four cases, the four major cases, we will have an updated list in April.
And subsequently, we will proceed in exactly the same way. Each month we will have the same information. We will have the same communication with the electors, month by month.
Senator Prud'homme: The citizens abroad, that famous list of citizens abroad who are entitled to vote in Quebec, are on your permanent list as being registered, as being entitled to vote in Quebec in a referendum or an election.
Mr. Côté: No, it is because I asked for some information. When someone is registered on the list of electors in the category of Quebecers who are entitled to vote outside Quebec, these people are recorded on the list for two years. At the end of two years, if they are still absent, they have to re-register. They cannot be absent from the Register more than two years.
Senator Prud'homme: But I have some small concrete examples. In the event there is a general election, the person is already registered on the Quebec list because he left less than two years ago and the election is called and the person is living in Saskatchewan that day. The enumeration is carried out. Is he not put on the list?
Mr. Côté: I am sorry but there will no longer be an enumeration in Quebec. You are assuming it is a Quebecer who lives outside Quebec, who is a qualified elector, who has already been registered for two years. He will have his ballot.
Senator Prud'homme: You knew my father very well. He was very practical. My father always said, that's all very well, but since he was tight with his money, he would have asked how much is that costing? How much? That is all I heard from him and I am like him, in the Senate and in the House of Commons. How much does all that cost? You are telling me about a million people to whom you will have to write because they have moved. That is 48 cents a stamp.
Mr. Côté: It depends on the agreements we make with Canada Post.
Senator Prud'homme: But this is not e-mail, it is first class. So it requires a lot of staff. That is for sure. You cannot send a million individualized letters to people who will or will not answer. It is continual. It requires a staff of how many people?
In Australia, we were told yesterday, in the committee, it is 800 people. That is excessive. To have a permanent list in Ottawa, if my memory of the testimony is accurate, we can make do with 19 people. That is very difficult. If they use all your services, they can do it with 19 people. How many people does it take you to get that permanent list?
Mr. Côté: You have to make some distinctions.
Senator Prud'homme: I have heard so many things about Quebec. I want to put all that in the testimony.
Mr. Côté: One of the major concerns you just indicated was also a concern of the members of the National Assembly. Are we doing something that will cost more than what we are now doing? It is a good reflex for a member.
This is what was demonstrated to us in a 1993 report that was the logical follow-up to the bill that had been examined in 1980, it is just 15 years since we began working on this list, we had a bill on third reading. We had it brought up to date.
What was contemplated at that point was to make the following calculation: We compile the permanent lists. What are the consequences and the savings? At that point, calculating the savings on the basis of the fact that there would no longer be a provincial, municipal and school board enumeration, the minimum we established over a five-year period was a gain of $15 million. I can tell you that there will be savings of at least $20 million.
But to achieve these savings because there will be no more enumerations, how much does it cost in the meantime? What I told the National Assembly, the order of magnitude, I insist on that expression, is for the compilation of a $7 million dollar list which will be distributed more or less as follows: $3 million and a bit on computer infrastructure; the specialists we need because there was a public tender and we hired a firm of specialists; the equipment that is required, most of which will continue to be used by us; and the staff assigned to this.
At present the assigned staff, about thirty people, including the specialists who are working on it, are in our office. What does that mean subsequently, because we are going to continue the operations?
We have budgeted, the orders of magnitude, that it would cost 1.5 million dollars per year to maintain the system. It is calculated in the 15 million in savings, what is not being spent, and we anticipate that in order to keep the list up to date it will require from 25 to 30 people at most.
Senator Prud'homme: For Canada, I have an easy question and the other one is more sensitive. I am going to try to find the right words, so as not to offend anyone's susceptibilities.
The federal government says there is a fine list in Quebec. You are not doing that just to please us. How much is it going to cost? How much are you going to charge us for your list?
Mr. Côté: I want to answer you, with all the reserve you have shown, with a joke that I was told by Mr. Kingsley. Suppose I said that you would use our list. How much would you be prepared to pay? He said that if they took some province's list, and the compilation of that list is worth four million dollars, I take it as a joke, that would save us about four million dollars, with that province, we would be prepared to say: We are prepared to pay two million, we are prepared to sign the same agreement.
In that area, it is obvious that if we provide the Quebec list, it is not in order to charge the equivalent of the enumeration operation.
Senator Prud'homme: Because we will still have to revise that list.
Mr. Côté: It comes from each citizen, it is the lot of each citizen. But it is evident that the work we have done, we will not charge for all the work we have done either. It will be negotiated with the federal government, amicably. We are going to evaluate what it may be worth, in order to arrive at a fair price, I would say. With the concern, on the one hand, of the earned increment or the work we have put into it, and, on the other hand, the concern that we cannot exaggerate in this regard. In my opinion, these are financial questions that will be settled on a government to government basis.
But I think we cannot exaggerate and say: We are lucky, the federal government is there, it has lots of money, we will charge it a lot. It is the citizen who pays. We should not lose sight of that.
[English]
The sensitive question is the last one. Everything seems to be fine. The National Assembly, by law -- it is not in the Constitution -- has allowed negotiation to take place. However, there is the matter of the political masters; I always call them that. After all, you may be the boss of Elections Quebec, but you are an officer of the Parliament of Quebec. You do not take your orders from Joe Smith; you report, like Mr. Kingsley, to Parliament. You are an officer. Let us suppose the political masters get up one morning, almost on the eve of a federal election, and say, "No deal. Our list we keep. Find your own." How do you answer that? Is that a possibility?
[Translation]
Mr. Côté: You will not have an agreement, there will be no possibility of a policy decision to supply the Quebec list.
Senator Prud'homme: The National Assembly suddenly decides, for all sorts of understandable reasons, that no, although it is in writing, you can always amend the Act.
Mr. Côté: That is my initial response. But it was adopted.
Senator Prud'homme: It would require an amendment.
Mr. Côté: You should be aware that that section, I think it is the same experience in the Commons, was adopted in agreement with the opposition.
Senator Prud'homme: Not here, unfortunately, this is the first time that a bill was pushed, if I understand correctly, there were some votes, what is called the guillotine.
Mr. Côté: It was not unanimous. Do I correctly understand what happened here?
Senator Prud'homme: In the House of Commons, it was not unanimous.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: No, they imposed the guillotine.
Senator Prud'homme: In your case, you have a working majority.
Mr. Côté: It was the same process in Quebec. It was the government that adopted the provision, saying that you can, under section 40.42, enter into an agreement. If it were to change its mind on that, the Chief Electoral Officer can sign an agreement, it would take an amendment to the Act. There would be some inconsistency in the approaches.
Senator Nolin: Mathematics is not my strong side. Earlier, you said that it seemed incongruous to you that the federal government would not use our list, because you have gone through it all, et cetera. I presume, when you make that characterization or that statement, you must have in mind what it cost you and what Ottawa would save by using your list, even if it was shared 50/50. You would bill Elections Canada for an agreed amount. You have read our bill. How much will it cost Elections Canada to conduct the operation in Quebec, an operation that you have already conducted and that you are prepared to offer in return for compensation. But we will talk about that later. How much would the federal government save if it took your list?
Mr. Côté: I think it is extremely hard to answer your question, because I do not believe I have at hand the precise data on what it has already cost or what it might cost Elections Canada. Even if you look at their report in this regard, there are some comparisons that are hard to make. In Quebec, whatever has to do with the electoral system automatically goes into my budget or into my financial statements.
I think I understand, but this is a personal understanding, and I want to clarify it. Sometimes I reserve the possibility of offloading work on other government departments and, ultimately, the whole operation is done. No matter, fundamentally it is the same operation. It's the same number of people in the last analysis. There is one huge difference: in Quebec, when we conducted our enumeration, we had 20,000 polling divisions; in Canada, we were given a figure earlier of 12,000 or 13,000. There are 7,000 fewer polling divisions, which means 14,000 fewer enumerators. So there is a difficulty in comparing the operations.
Senator Prud'homme: The polling divisions are bigger.
Mr. Côté: The polling divisions are bigger.
Senator Nolin: If we put aside the question of the cost of the enumeration, if we eliminate the door-to-door cost, there is the cost of the infrastructure for afterwards, maintaining the list. If we take the door-to-door into account, then, if this bill is not adopted, there will be a door-to-door in any event, under the present elections act. That is why there are no savings as such.
But if this bill is adopted and the savings are one of the reasons relied on by the government to introduce this bill, well, if we were going to talk about savings we have to go all the way. Your proposal reflects, among other things, some savings. You are telling Ottawa that you have spent so far -- as I said mathematics is not my strong point -- $7 million, is it?
Mr. Côté: It is an order of magnitude.
Senator Nolin: And that includes your enumeration?
Mr. Côté: No.
Senator Nolin: That does not include your enumeration?
Mr. Côté: No, no.
Senator Nolin: That amount represents just the infrastructure for setting up the list.
Mr. Côté: It is the compilation of the permanent list.
Senator Nolin: In other words, there would be at least a saving of $7 million, independently of what you bill to Mr. Kingsley?
Mr. Côté: A distinction must be made between the enumeration operation and the compilation of the list. The enumeration operation is done, those are analogous costs on both sides. But the compilation of the list will be ready in April. I said that the order of magnitude -- since November of last year we have been working on it, on the costs incurred, including all the costs -- has no hidden costs, and it is $7 million. But one of the reasons why it is costing us more is that our list must also be usable by the municipalities.
For example, the cross-referencing of the electors on the provincial list of electors, in the municipal electoral districts or in the municipal polling divisions -- they are not the same as ours -- that operation accounts for some costs.
Senator Nolin: The cost of matching up according to the geographical descriptions of the polling divisions, that entails some cost --
Mr. Côté: The whole operation entails some costs in the order of 7 million.
Senator Nolin: In other words, when you discuss with Mr. Kingsley, you tell him: Jean-Pierre, I could save you at least 7 million dollars. Is that your argument? You begin with that!
Mr. Côté: In my vocabulary, I would certainly use the word "million" rather than "thousand".
Senator Nolin: I say "million", I said 7 million.
Mr. Côté: I think that if we came to that, I think it would be necessary to give Elections Canada the possibility of an evaluation.
Senator Nolin: Absolutely. But there are definitively savings. Is it $5 million, $7 million? But there are substantial savings.
Mr. Côté: Yes, I am convinced.
Senator Nolin: I am asking you all these questions because that is the argument used by the government, to say that the enumeration is finished, we will be saving money.
Senator Prud'homme: Now do not be partisan!
Senator Nolin: I am not. As long as we are saving, we will save. We have a fine proposal, which may not have been fully examined by everyone. We have the merit, this morning, of getting some answers to our questions and of putting numbers to these answers.
For the maintenance of your list, you mentioned a figure earlier of 3.5 million. Is that what it costs annually?
Mr. Côté: No. Beginning in May, for one year, the maintenance of the permanent list, which can be used at any time, will cost, according to our assessment, according to our present estimate, $1,500,000 per year, from $1,300,000 to $1,500,000.
Senator Nolin: The three and a half million is included in the seven million. In other words, it is the cost of the infrastructure, the professionals?
Mr. Côté: The three and a half million is the computer development.
Senator Nolin: I understand. How many voters are there in Quebec? So that everyone understands, if we want to make some calculations of savings.
Senator Beaudoin: Five million, two hundred thousand, I think.
Mr. Côté: It is 5,190,000 voters, more or less.
Senator Nolin: It is 5,190,000. Just to be sure that everyone understands that we are going to be saving, if we follow your course.
Senator Beaudoin: Only one question. We discussed door-to-door enumeration at length. Did I clearly understand what you said? You stated that the system is so refined, the technology so advanced, that with all the sources of information you have there will no longer be any necessity to do a door-to-door enumeration. Is that what you said?
Mr. Côté: This is a condition sine qua non of the provisions of the Act, there will no longer be any enumeration in Quebec.
Senator Beaudoin: All the sources will then come in some other way?
Mr. Côté: Yes.
Senator Beaudoin: And that is possible?
Mr. Côté: Yes indeed!
Senator Beaudoin: That is all I wanted to know.
Mr. Côté: If that were not possible, there would be nothing to do.
Senator Prud'homme: He should be told again that there will be a revision of all that.
Mr. Côté: There are three operations. The first is the compilation of a basic list. The second is the updating to which you are referring. The updating takes into account the items I referred to earlier and also the registration of new electors. And after the update, the list will be usable, there is the revision of the list at the time of the election.
Senator Beaudoin: Revision is another phase, another stage. Is the system so sophisticated that you can do away with the door-to-door enumeration?
Mr. Côté: We will have to do it. It is a condition sine qua non of the compilation of a permanent computerized list of electors. The only precaution taken by the legislator in Quebec is that I must report annually on the operation. And if something goes wrong, and I do not really think it will, there could be an ad hoc enumeration or a revision. They have kept a certain way out for themselves. But is it clear in the mind of everyone in Quebec, of all the parliamentarians, that there will be no further enumerations.
Senator Beaudoin: That satisfies me as an answer.
Senator Murray: I have only one or two questions. Mr. Côté, you are going to verify your list with that of the Régie de l'assurance-maladie. I am curious to know why you are certain that the Régie's list is so up to date. Here in Ontario, if I move somewhere, if I change my address, I am not obliged to notify the Health Insurance Plan; it is only when I next visit the doctor that the question is put to me, whether since my last visit I have changed my address. Are the Régie's lists really up to date, in your opinion?
Mr. Côté: As initial information, there is an agreement in Quebec between the Régie de l'assurance automobile du Québec, the SAAQ, there is an initial source of information of mandatory change of address when you have a driver's licence. This information held by the SAAQ --
Senator Murray: When your driver's licence expires, you apply --
Mr. Côté: No, within 30 days of a change of address. This information, which is held by the SAAQ, is automatically communicated to the RAMQ.
Senator Murray: To the Régie de l'assurance-maladie.
Mr. Côté: To the Régie de l'assurance-maladie.
Senator Murray: Their lists are secondary.
Mr. Côté: In fact, all the more so in that they cover 4,200,000 adults and we have 5,200,000 voters. There are one million somewhere, almost one million --
Senator Murray: But it reports to the Department of Transport, on the driver's licence office?
Senator Lynch-Staunton: The Société d'assurance automobile.
Mr. Côté: I am sorry, Senator Murray. You are asking me if it reports --
Senator Murray: The Régie de l'assurance-maladie reports to the office of --
Mr. Côté: To the Minister of Health.
Senator Murray: Pardon?
Mr. Côté: This is the minister responsible for the Régie.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: But for this information, for the changes of address.
Senator Murray: For this information, the changes of address depend on the drivers' licence offices?
Mr. Côté: No, in Quebec there are agreements between the change of address databanks. The agencies such as the motor vehicle offices that handle changes of address -- and it is mandatory that it be kept up to date, because once we change our address, within 30 days -- are advised. This information on changes of address in the agencies -- there is an agreement, it is automatically transferred -- is automatically given to the RAMQ.
We have taken our list and cross-referenced it with the list of the Régie de l'assurance-maladie. On account of all the information held by the Régie de l'assurance-maladie, we achieve a comparison rate of 93 per cent. The others whom we have not reached, those are the ones we will reach in January. We are going to contact these people.
Senator Murray: I have a further question for clarification. The system contemplated by Elections Canada for the Register of Electors is largely dependent on the cooperation of the provinces. In Quebec's case, all that will be available to us is your list, and nothing else. If I clearly understood you, the lists of the other provincial government departments or agencies will not be available?
Mr. Côté: It is necessary to understand clearly why I said that. It is because we think the federal list of electors is as important, in terms of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, for the exercise of the right to vote, as the provincial list. It is a fundamental right. We have to have the best possible list.
Having said this, why tell the federal government: You are going to deal with the SAAQ, the department for issuing drivers' licences? You will not be dealing with the SAAQ, you will instead be dealing with the Chief Electoral Officer? The reason is quite simple, we are going to provide them with a list that is more complete and better constructed. The Régie de l'assurance automobile, I repeat, has 4,200,000 adults on their list. On the permanent provincial list of electors: 5,200,000. There is a major difference in potential voters who are not being reached. It is not so much a refusal, non-cooperation, it is saying, we are offering you the best product. That is what we are saying.
Senator Murray: I understand your argument very well and I do not question its merit. It is just to re-establish the facts in this regard. In the other provinces, Mr. Kingsley is right in thinking that the provinces are prepared to give him the information from their motor vehicles or statistics offices, "Vital Statistics", quite so.
In Quebec's case, there will only be the list of electors.
Mr. Côté: That is correct.
Senator Murray: So, to this day, there is no agreement between you and Elections Canada in this regard?
Mr. Côté: You are right.
Senator Murray: I say that for the benefit of Senator Bryden and some others.
I do not see how we can allow this bill to come into force without such an agreement with the Province of Quebec.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: To repeat, and I rather hope to complement Senator Murray's thinking, which is shared by many people. It is that the schedule imposed on us for this bill, if it is adopted, the dates that must be met and the ultimate purpose of having a permanent list, a permanent updated register, given that a federal election must be held in less than two years, we have a lot of concerns, which unfortunately are confirmed after what we have heard this morning, that this laudable goal will not be met.
Senator Bryden adds to these anxieties by telling us that, according to his information, if it is only the permanent list that you make available to the federal government, it will take at least eight to nine months to do the transfers, because the technology is not up to scratch. And there appears to be a substantial disparity between what the federal government is asking of the provinces and territories and what one province -- not the least important -- Quebec, is prepared to offer it.
In this information, and I quoted an excerpt from a news release, the federal government seems to think that the permanent lists are secondary. The federal government, via Elections Canada, would like to delve into the sources itself, to get the information directly, instead of studying lists compiled from the same data, but without ensuring the accuracy of the data that were used to develop the provincial lists. And today we have confirmation of what you told the House of Commons, according to La Presse of November 1, that Quebec will not provide the federal government with the data from its registers of drivers licences, vehicle owners and civil status, for the eventual updating of the permanent list of electors that Ottawa wants to establish. Instead, it will make available its own permanent list, which it is now developing.
I am not taking a position either way when it comes to defining the best information needed to get a permanent list of electors with a degree of accuracy of at least 95 per cent.
What seems to me to be increasingly confirmed is that we have not gone far enough in these agreements, especially with Quebec which is refusing -- for its own reasons, which I respect -- to share data with the federal government, which in turn insists on saying that it needs this data.
We see ourselves in one year, without Quebec's cooperation, as the federal government defines it, and perhaps without the cooperation of the other provinces, as the federal government defines it, with a permanent register that will not have the same degree of accuracy as a list compiled using the door-to-door method.
So having said that, you are unable to assure us that a few weeks from now we will be able to reach an agreement and that the other provinces are prepared to sign what the federal government wants. What I have heard this morning adds to these concerns. It confirms, in my mind, that it would be preferable for the next federal election to be conducted under the present conditions. The enumeration conducted for that election will serve as a basis for a permanent register for the election that follows.
That is more a comment than a question. Can you confirm to us that so far the National Assembly has given you a mandate to sign an agreement?
Senator Nolin: It is in the provincial legislation.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Yes, but you have no authorization to supply further information than the information the Nationala Assembly has authorized you to disclose.
Mr. Côté: Unless there is a spectacular policy reversal.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Very well.
Mr. Côté: As far as the politicians are concerned, you are quite right, you have correctly summarized the situation.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: The situation is indeed as I have described it.
Mr. Côté: Yes.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: I know you do not want to get into a political debate. Do you see some problems -- not insurmountable but difficult -- that would not allow a permanent register with at least a 95 per cent degree of accuracy if an election were held before a year and a half from now, federally?
Mr. Côté: I did not clearly grasp your question.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: When we have a door-to-door enumeration with a revision, we achieve a degree of accuracy of approximately 95 per cent. That is the rate we want to maintain continually, if not improve. My concern is that with the lack of a formal agreement, which the federal government is still trying to get, it could be, since an election will be held within less than two years, the mandate ending in October 1998, that the permanent register established by the Act as of April would not have the same degree of accuracy that we could get from a traditional enumeration.
Mr. Côté: I think we are confronted with the same challenge in Quebec. It is possible that elections might be held at any time.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: You are going to be ready.
Mr. Côté: The challenge we have is the same. The list of electors must have a 95 per cent or better degree of accuracy.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: In what year did you begin your work?
Mr. Côté: In September 1995.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: One year after your term of office began -- the election was held in September 1994 -- so you had at least three years before you, all things being equal, while in this case we are beginning at the end of a term of office.
Mr. Côté: The legislation was enacted in June 1995. The basic enumeration took place in September 1995.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: One year after the provincial election.
Mr. Côté: Of 1994.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: While we will be beginning one year before the provincial election.
Mr. Côté: This enumeration was used in the referendum.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: Yes, in October 1995.
Mr. Côté: We have to deliver the goods in April 1997.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: From the beginning to the end, you had more than two years, about two years to do that.
Mr. Côté: Thereabouts.
[English]
Senator Bryden: Where we are going with this is very revealing. However, in relation to the discussion about agreements, I can indicate the exact pages where you indicated to the Commons committee that there were ongoing discussions between you and your officials and Elections Canada. You said that, for your part, the exchanges with Elections Canada had been very cordial and very positive. You believed that the passage of this bill would officially and legally authorize the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada to do business with Quebec, and this would take on a much more formal, official position.
Your formalization of any relationship with Elections Canada, from what I have read and understand, is dependent on legislative authority being given to Elections Canada.
Mr. Côté: That is right. I should like to repeat that a few days ago I received a phone call from Mr. Kingsley telling me, "I agree to deal with your office."
Senator Bryden: Yes.
Mr. Côté: Especially on the updating.
Senator Bryden: I hesitate to do this once again, but we are constantly getting confused between the creation of the list and the updating of the list. Bill C-63 provides for one final enumeration outside of the electoral period to create an initial list. The only exceptions will be that they will rely on the lists from Alberta and Prince Edward Island because, not only do they have lists which were done within a year, but they also are in position to match their numbers and their addresses directly to the federal situation. In creating the list in every other province, they need to do an enumeration.
In Quebec's instance, the way they will create the initial list is by enumerating in the 75 federal ridings and the 13,000 federal polling divisions in order to get an accurate list of names and addresses of people and where they are located for federal election purposes.
Your list on May 1, or even April 1, will have that same accurate information, perhaps even more accurate because it is updated, for 125 Quebec ridings and 22,000 polling divisions.
While your list is compiled electronically, it is not geographically referenced for federal purposes. You have a list of addresses and names which is created for provincial purposes and which now can be matched for municipal purposes, because you have done it. While the software is available to do the same match from provincial to federal, there is no database in Quebec, and it is my understanding that there will not be one by April 1 or May 1 to apply the software to make that match.
Mr. Côté: We can make a comparison with what we have done in relation to the municipalities. It was the same problem.
Senator Bryden: It was in reverse, in that the company you dealt with had a database, did it not? The name of the company was Elections NCP. Did they not have a geographical listing of streets and addresses?
Mr. Côté: I would like to make a comparison, because it is part of the same problem that may arise with the arrangement we have with the municipalities. We gave the provincial voters list to the municipalities. There were two ways to match that list with the geographical division or polling division; one was with the help of the software coming from NCP, and the other was from the municipality, to organize themselves from within.
In that regard, I would like to be very careful, in that it seems to me that the technical approach this morning seems to be different. Is there a substantial difference between the Elections Canada one and our own? If there is such a fundamental difference, then we create a problem for Elections Canada to match the lists.
According to our experience in dealing with similar technical problems, if we begin tomorrow to exchange with Elections Canada and to give them our list, then how can they proceed to match their own list in the right geographical situation?
Senator Bryden: Our information is that the creation of the geographical database which allows using your names and addresses and matching them would take approximately eight to nine months.
Mr. Côté: The main difference is that, on the federal level, they are on the way to developing a geomatic process. The geomatic process is a very specific one. It has a high degree of perfection. We are not using that.
Senator Bryden: Nor will it be used it in Quebec, because they will have an enumeration that matches the names to the 75 ridings.
Mr. Côté: It will be necessary for them to use such a tool for the updating of the list.
Senator Bryden: Yes, and that is in the future.
Mr. Côté: Instead of having an enumeration in the province of Quebec, we must take the Quebec voters list. The main problem is whether we can match that voters list with our own polling division. That is the main question.
From Elections Canada, I understand that would take eight to nine months because of our own process. I do not wish to discuss the quality of one process or the other. However, because we have some experience with this, perhaps it will take much less time than that to achieve our purposes. I do not want to belittle the attitude or the competence of the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada. I am just saying it is a different approach.
Senator Bryden: The responsibility for creating a list for Canada is, of course, with the Chief Electoral Officer of Canada. The reason for emphasizing this, as I am doing here, is that they are conducting an enumeration in Quebec, as I understand it. It is not because they believe your numerical name and address list is inaccurate at all. They are conducting it to be sure that they have an initial list. An election may be called as early as tomorrow; however, with this in place, it could be called as early as May. They are not questioning the accuracy of your information but rather the ability to transpose that information from 75 ridings, with 5 million electors, into 13 voting districts instead of 22.
Mr. Côté: It is a question of evaluation. I am not telling you that I have any doubt about the professionalism or the approach of Elections Canada. However, because of our experience, I think we can take another way of doing things; we can choose another software. It may be another process, but I feel it may not take not as long as you foresee.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Côté.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: If we are of unanimous consent, Madam Chair, we can forgo clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. Our concerns are known, and we would just as soon carry on with the hearings at the call of the Chair. I believe that more questions have been left unanswered than have been answered; however, even if we had all our numbers here, I know what the answer would be.
We do reserve the right, when the report is made at whatever date, to be a little more precise in our objections during the debate on the report and, if it goes without amendment, on the bill itself.
I do not want to repeat myself, but I believe, if we pass this bill, we are causing more problems than we are resolving. I say that without any partisanship whatsoever. There is no concern about a shorter writ period. Senator Murray raised some concern about broadcasting, but that is no reason to hold up the act.
Senator Murray: It does not disadvantage one party over the other.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: The problem is whether, when the election is held, we will have a participation rate as high as the one that Canadians should expect. For whatever reason, without pointing fingers at anyone, we have not received enough satisfactory information to allow us to answer that with a "yes".
I do move, with unanimous consent, Madam Chair, and with your agreement, that we forgo clause-by-clause consideration.
The Chair: Do I have a motion, then, to pass the bill without amendment?
Senator Lewis: I so move.
The Chair: Is there agreement in the committee to pass the bill without amendment?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Beaudoin: No.
Senator Lynch-Staunton: On division.
The Chair: On division. Carried. I will report the bill this afternoon without amendment.
The committee adjourned.