Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Legal and
Constitutional Affairs
Issue 57 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Thursday, April 10, 1997
The Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, to which was referred Bill C-71, to regulate the manufacture, sale, labelling and promotion of tobacco products, to make consequential amendments to another Act and to repeal certain Acts, met this day at 10:30 p.m. to give consideration to the bill.
Senator Sharon Carstairs (Chair) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chair: Good morning, senators. Before we begin our clause-by-clause study, there are a couple of issues I wish to discuss. First, I have had the question raised as to whether we would do the clause-by-clause study in camera or in an open meeting. I remind senators that rule 92 of the Rules of the Senate of Canada is very restrictive as to what can be done in camera. We can discuss wages, salaries and employee benefits in camera. We can discuss contract negotiations or other labour relations in camera. We can discuss personal matters in camera. We can consider a draft agenda or a draft report in camera; but we cannot do a clause-by-clause study of a piece of legislation in camera.
Senator Beaudoin: Madam Chair, rule 92 is clear when it applies to committees of the Senate. Is it as clear when it comes to joint committees?
The Chair: According to the clerk, there are other rules which apply to joint committees.
I am sure in the amount of paper that goes across your desks, senators, that you do not always have time to look at the report that is sent out to us on the review of the work of committees. It is important to bring the following to your attention: In the Second Session of the 35th Parliament, the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee has met for a total of 150 hours and we have met 75 times. The closest committee to us has been the Banking Committee, which has met 46 times for a total of 112 hours. If you sometimes feel that you seem to be working harder than any other committee in the Senate, you are. For this, you receive no additional remuneration, just your Chair's very heartfelt thanks.
We will now proceed to our clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-71
[Translation]
Senator Nolin: Madam Chair, yesterday we had the pleasure of hearing from the Minister of Health. Senator Lynch-Staunton and myself discussed with the minister some of the concerns we had about certain provisions of this bill. Throughout the course of this debate, in committee as well as in the Senate, our party has reiterated its support for the objective as worded in clause 4 of the bill. We have repeatedly stated that we continue to support this objective, even though we have some concerns, both minor and major, about the means employed to attain it.
This morning, and I think I can speak on behalf of all of my colleagues here, we discussed this matter in caucus and while we continue to strongly support the objectives of the bill, we will be recommending its adoption on division.
When the bill comes before the Senate next week for third reading, I for one intend to put forward amendments, specifically those which Senator Lynch-Staunton and myself discussed with the Minister of Health.
[English]
Senator Lewis: Madam Chair, in that case, I move that we report the bill without amendment.
The Chair: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Nolin: On division.
Senator Pearson: Now that we have agreed to pass the bill without amendment, we should make some strong comments in our report. Judging from the conversations, there are two that we all share. One is with respect to the need for stronger education programs aimed at young children. I was happy to hear the minister talk about a program for kids to help them contribute to the development of programs. I should like something to that effect contained in the report. It should reaffirm our conviction that much more needs to be done in the way of education, but it should be education that works and not education that will set off negative reactions.
I really like the idea of working with children and young people to help them to develop programs. The minister said that there have been more demands for such programs. I assume that probably what we need to say is something to the effect, "Make more resources available for this purpose."
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: I totally agree with the point that Senator Pearson has just raised. No one here disagrees, I think, with the following statement: if we are truly serious in wanting young people to stop smoking or never take up the habit at all, we have to do something. Legislation is all fine and well. I have spent my life around laws and they are essential. However, I think we need to do more than this.
I raised the very same point yesterday. I believe Senator Lavoie-Roux suggested at the time that this be covered in Part VII under Agreements. I do not think that we can include this under agreements with the provinces. Of course we want to establish an education fund, and I would like this recommendation to be included in the report that will be tabled today. I would like us to comply fully with the Constitution of Canada pursuant to which education is a provincial responsibility. This has to be made very clear. However, I firmly believe that the federal government has the right to legislate in criminal matters, as is the case here, as well as adopt legislation which affects the education of young people. I fully agree with your suggestion and I think that this must be part of our recommendations. Could this possibly result in an amendment? We will discuss that in due time. For now, we have agreed to pass the bill, table our report and make some recommendations.
Senator Nolin: Senator Beaudoin is quite right and we fully support Senator Pearson's position. There is no question that after hearing from all of the witnesses, particularly the experts who explained to us why more young people were taking up smoking, a criminal law, whether or not we agree with this approach, can indeed have some kind of effect on young people. We have not lost sight of the objective of the bill. The suggestion made yesterday by Senator Lavoie-Roux is very timely. The fact remains that the federal government, although very mindful of provincial jurisdictions, has a clear responsibility to set the tone and act with considerable leadership through the Minister of Health. I cannot imagine any one of my provincial colleagues, even the ministers of education, opposing any show of leadership on the part of the Minister of Health who would allocate the necessary funds to attain these objectives. We have to do more than merely put words on paper and leave the budgets as they are.
I would remind my colleagues that the Minister of Health already has access to a surtax charged to tobacco companies in the order of $60 million. Unfortunately, the surtax is not having its desired effect.
Senator Beaudoin: Did you say $60 million?
Senator Nolin: Sixty million dollars at the present time. If we want to present a report that will have an impact on government, we must be clear: the government must take this $60 million which it is collecting for very noble reasons and put it to good use. The Minister of Health must use the $60 million available to take positive action and to target Canadian youth who want nothing better than to be influenced.
[English]
Senator Jessiman: I should like to defend myself in public. I did speak to the chairperson before coming here and I thought she might have mentioned it, but she did not.
The Chair: I will. I have the information right here.
Senator Jessiman: Our discussion is on the record. If you intend to correct it, I have nothing further to say.
The Chair: Senator Jessiman is quite right. The word "promulgate" was used entirely appropriately by him yesterday and not by me. It means, "by open declaration it can proclaim", which is how I was using the word, but a secondary meaning is to "make known or public the terms of a proposed law". In that respect, I defer to the greater knowledge of the English language of Senator Jessiman.
Senator Jessiman: Thank you.
Senator Beaudoin: It may depend on the context.
Senator Lewis: Is there a motion that we add a recommendation?
The Chair: Senator Pearson wants to add two, but let me just go over with you the ideas that have so far been expressed because I want to incorporate all of them in the final report.
I have heard very clearly that we want to focus on education and youth , working with youth and helping them to develop programs, as much as that is possible. I heard that the intention is that this legislation, in and of itself, is just one aspect of dealing with the problems of youth today. There are other aspects besides education which must be addressed if we are really to deal with teens smoking.
With your permission, Senator Nolin, I should like to also include "pre-teens", because we clearly have a difficulty with children between the ages of 8 and 10 as well.
We must respect the rights of the provinces in education, but we recognize that there is a leadership role for the federal government. a surtax on the tobacco industry of $60 million has been set aside specifically to target this kind of educational activity. That money has not been used entirely, and we want to recommend that it be so used.
Are there further aspects of that recommendation you wish to add?
Senator Doyle: Perhaps I would describe it as an extension of what Senator Pearson, Senator Beaudoin and Senator Nolin have been talking about. That is, what one of our witnesses described as our addiction to sponsorship from the tobacco industry. We have allowed our dependency on smoking to govern our contributions to music, sport and many other areas. These benefactors then turn out to be the only defenders the tobacco industry has when it attempts to argue with the government. I say this in addition to what you have suggested and what colleagues on my side have indicated.
Senator Pearson: That should be a separate observation.
The Chair: Senator Pearson has a separate recommendation she will introduce. Perhaps we can let her put her second item forward now.
Senator Pearson: There was total agreement that, for the arts and sports groups -- while we may regret that they got themselves hooked -- we could build some kind of compensation fund. That is the general sense of my idea.
On the other side, we did hear about some organizations, notably the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and the Cirque du Soleil, thathad the courage to refuse cigarette sponsorship. I should like to ensure that they not be penalized for being virtuous. There should be some kind of fund established, of a short-lived nature, that groups such as these could access.
Senator Lewis: Would that be transitional?
Senator Pearson: Yes.
Senator Kenny: I should like to endorse what I heard from Senator Nolin, Senator Doyle and, obviously, Senator Pearson.
What mechanism do you have in mind in terms of developing these recommendations. Are you looking for specific guidance today, or do you intend to take the staff away with the general guidance, come up with a draft and return to the committee with it? If so, fine. If not, I should tell you that my staff is already working on a list of some of the other methods of taking young people off their dependency on tobacco. We are looking at the testimony to get some of the better ideas.
I am trying to discover whether you need to hear those suggestions now, or can you receive them over the course of the next day? Do you plan to write a draft and bring it back to us? How do you plan to proceed? That will help me in my next question.
The Chair: That is completely up to the committee. There are two ways in which we can deal with this. We can call another committee meeting to approve the report or we can do what we have done traditionally, which is to authorize the steering committee, made up of Senator Lewis, Senator Nolin and myself, to put the final approval on the committee's report. It will be up to the committee to make that determination, I would suggest, after we have heard all these arguments.
Senator Kenny: Thank you, Madam Chair. If you are likely to follow your traditional method of dealing with the matter, to which I certainly have no objection, you are asking us to offer all our suggestions at this meeting.
The Chair: It was not my intention to report to the house this afternoon, because I knew this was a rather major recommendation. I will give myself and the committee more time to work on this issue. Perhaps we should deal with this matter right now. If the committee empowers the steering committee to approve the final draft of the report, then I would take information from anyone who wishes to provide information over the next day; draft the report over the weekend, with the help of the committee clerk and staff; present it to the two members of the steering committee first thing Monday morning to get their approval, and if we are sitting Monday night, I would report it then. If we are not sitting Monday night, I would report it on Tuesday afternoon.
Senator Kenny: That is a terrific idea. My only question is a practical one: What is the cut-off time for proposals to come to you before you and the steering committee meet?
The Chair: I would want the proposals before twelve o'clock on Friday. I would suggest that the steering committee can probably deal with this by conference call, after I have faxed them a copy of the draft report first thing Monday morning.
Is that reasonable, honourable senators? Could I have a motion, then, that the steering committee give final approval to the draft report on Bill C-71?
Senator Gigantès: I so move.
The Chair: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. Are there more ideas?
Senator Milne: As Senator Pearson said, it really is most important that the government devise some way to gradually wean what I feel are the addicted arts groups from their reliance on tobacco money.
Senator Pearson: Could we put it in a more positive way?
Senator Nolin: I will not be able to support what you just said.
Senator Milne: Perhaps the right term is "interim funding" so that they can gradually find other sources of funding.
Senator Moore: I wish to be associated with the points on education that were made by Senator Pearson today and those made yesterday by Senator Lavoie-Roux.
In connection with the education matter, I understand that in the United States, RJR-Macdonald prepares and issues, at its cost, an education kit for young people. I received a sample of that in my office the other day, and I expect other senators did as well. Perhaps there is an opportunity for our government, through the minister, to hold discussions with the tobacco manufacturers to see if there is a way for them to contribute to such a program in Canada with respect to the education of youth regarding tobacco use.
Senator Beaudoin: I should like to come back to Senator Pearson's point. I am not sure that "education" is the appropriate word.
Senator Pearson: I understand your problem.
Senator Beaudoin: It is not the proper term, in French at least: "fonds d'éducation". We have to find another word, because we want to do something for the youth.
Senator Kenny: To motivate.
Senator Beaudoin: To motivate them. It is not exactly a promotion, it is not exactly information, it is more than that. It is formation.
Senator Corbin: Dissuasion.
Senator Beaudoin: I have tried to think of another term.
The Chair: A public awareness program?
Senator Pearson: It is more than awareness. You want to get that essence of motivation.
Senator Beaudoin: Yes. It is not purely education. It is more than that. We have to teach the young population that they should be motivated to do something, that something has to be done.
[Translation]
Surely "education" is not the appropriate word because we are not talking about people attending school. It is more a matter of informing, training and motivating people. We will have to try and come up with a designation other than "education fund".
[English]
Senator Gigantès: I fully agree with Senator Beaudoin. However, being pessimistic about such matters, whatever word you find, Madam Beaudoin, the minister responsible in the Province of Quebec, will find fault with it and say that it is an intrusion by the federal government. They will not listen to you, Senator Beaudoin. The press will highlight what she says and bury you somewhere. It is vicious and it will continue to be vicious. They have found the flaw in democracy, which is information. They have replaced information with misinformation and calumny. That is what is happening in our province unfortunately.
Senator Losier-Cool: What I have to say has probably been said already but I want to emphasize the education program. Senator Pearson said she envisages a program not for youth but with youth. We must not take a preaching attitude. We must include the youth in the preparation and in the presentation of those programs. We must not just give them posters and say, "Do not smoke". They know that. We must include them in the preparation of the education program.
The Chair: We have had a number of ideas. I welcome any more that come to my office before 12 noon tomorrow. We will draft the report. With your permission, I will go slightly beyond the scope of the steering committee and ask for Senator Beaudoin's extra help in ensuring that it is well-written in French as well as in English, if that is agreeable to members of this committee.
If there is any other member of the committee who wants to see the report, please let me know. If you wish the report circulated to you, even though only the steering committee will make the final decision, I will be pleased to circulate it to every member of the committee and to you, Senator Kenny, because you have been such a constant participant here.
Senator Lewis: My original motion was that we report the bill without amendment, but we need to amend it so that we report the bill without amendment but with recommendations.
The Chair: We have a motion to report the bill without amendment but with recommendations. It has been moved by Senator Lewis. Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. That is not on division but with unanimous support.
Senator Kenny: There is a small technical issue. I do not pretend to be an expert in technical matters, but when a committee issues a report with a recommendation, there is an assumption that the recommendation is as a result of the committee's report. A report with a recommendation to the government is a different matter. I am suggesting that Senator Lewis might wish to think about his proposal, and that the recommendation attached to the report be a recommendation to the government.
Senator Lewis: I assume that that is what happens with all recommendations.
Senator Nolin: No, sometimes it is a recommendation to the Senate.
Senator Beaudoin: It is a good point because we report to the Senate. If you want to recommend to the government, you must so indicate.
The Chair: It is clear from what everyone has said today that this is a recommendation to the government on this particular issue.
Honourable senators, we will now go in camera. I should like CPAC and all other participants to leave. There is an issue I should like to discuss with members of the committee.
The committee proceeded in camera.