Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education
Issue 2 - Evidence - November 7 Sitting
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 7, 1996
The Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, met this day at 9:05 a.m. to continue its inquiry into the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
Senator M. Lorne Bonnell (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have with us this morning Mr. Stainforth from the International Academic Relations Division of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, who will tell us about that department's involvement with international Post-Secondary education, and discuss jobs that are available for our students when they graduate. Welcome, Mr. Stainforth, and please proceed.
Mr. Piers Stainforth, Program Manager, International Academic Relations Division, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade: Mr. Chairman, I wish I was able to talk about nothing but jobs, but I am certainly happy to discuss international EDUCATION as seen from the department's perspective.
I should like to begin by covering a few general points regarding international EDUCATION. First, the international programs in Canadian EDUCATION project and reinforce Canada's image and identity abroad. They are a fundamental aspect of the third pillar of foreign policy which emerged from the special report of the joint committee of Parliament a few years ago.
Second, the department's Canadian Studies programs have successfully built a core of well-informed, well-disposed and influential policy makers in the capitals of all our principal international partners.
Third, EDUCATIONal goods and services are among the fastest-growing sectors in the international market place.
My next points deal with other areas of internationalization. Fourth, intellectual capital is emerging as a primary source of economic strength and international competitiveness.
Fifth, international cooperation programs in higher EDUCATION and research are major stimulants for domestic innovation.
Sixth, international codes for transparency of credentials and other standards encourage parallel domestic policies in support of student and worker mobility.
Finally, while we must always remember that EDUCATION is a provincial responsibility, international EDUCATION provides an avenue for federal-provincial cooperation in real and practical terms.
With regard to my first two points, I would note that we have a very fine diplomatic tool, and that is Canadian Studies. During the past twenty years, the department's Canadian Studies Program, has grown from a speculative seed to a substantial success. Through it, we have direct links to advisors in the corridors of power in all of our principal partners. The program encourages a better knowledge and understanding of Canada among influential groups abroad. We now have some 20 national and multi-national Canadian Studies associations, comprising about 6,000 persons around the world. Among those 6,000 Canadianists, those who advise prime ministers and presidents are our particular joy.
I should like to mention briefly the marketing of EDUCATIONal goods and services abroad. The department now has specialists in EDUCATION to assist Canadian exporters in all markets, with a particular emphasis presently on the Asia-Pacific region, where we have established a network of Canadian EDUCATION Centres, in partnership with the Asia-Pacific Foundation of Canada in Vancouver, to promote Canada and Canadian EDUCATION. So far, there are seven centres, with another four planned.
Looking to the future, the department is attempting to identify opportunities and prepare ourselves to respond to future challenges that may arise. Discussions are ongoing between the department and others, including provincial authorities and EDUCATION leaders, to coordinate international Canadian marketing. We are not sure yet how that will be structured, but we are working on it.
I would add that senior persons from EDUCATIONal institutions are now included when Team Canada travels abroad with the prime minister. This is a change that was introduced in the past year. We hope it will bear considerable fruit.
In this regard, I note that EDUCATIONal exports of all kinds, which may include people coming to Canada as well as goods and services sent abroad, earn about $2.5 billion per year, about the same as wheat. Canada probably could do considerably better than that.
Canadian universities rate with the top third of U.S. universities. Average annual EDUCATION costs per student in Canada are about $7,000, compared to about $25,000 in the U.S. The research activities of Canadian universities are of very good quality. Our universities offer well-respected programs in two international languages. They have good infrastructures, and they enjoy easy access to superior communications networks.
I would note that Canada does well where its services are activity marketed. In Taipei, in 1994, fewer than 2,000 student visas were issued. One year after a marketing campaign began, that number had increased by 30 per cent. In South Korea, in 1994, fewer that 1,500 visas were issued. The next year, after a marketing campaign there, three times as many were issued.
With regard to international students in Canada, Canada ranks fifth among countries receiving international students, behind the U.S.A., France, Britain, and Germany. In 1993, about 100,000 international students at all levels were in Canada. At post-secondary levels, a large minority, about 40 per cent, were enrolled in graduate programs. International students represented less than 3 per cent of all undergraduates on Canadian campuses, compared to 13 per cent of all master's candidates and 25 per cent of all doctoral candidates.
About one-third of all international students are in primary or secondary school programs. I should mention in passing that the department is concerned mainly with post-secondary rather than the primary and secondary school exercises. I should also note that I do not believe this number includes English-as-a-second-language students, which is a growing and thriving enterprise in many parts of the country.
Concerning the business of intellectual capital, I turn to the internationalization of EDUCATION. This is a difficult area to describe but basically to meet the challenge of a global, knowledge-based economy, we are seeking to enhance the international dimension of higher EDUCATION, research, and training, and to promote strong international institutional partnerships.
The European Union invests more than $1 billion annually in collaborative activities in higher EDUCATION, research and training. Its member countries spend even more on a bilateral basis. The Red Book indicates that the government would like to follow this example.
Other post-industrial economies see such expenditures as an investment and a strategy to enhance trade competitiveness based on knowledge, skills and qualification of the work force. Canada trails significantly behind its major partners. Japan, the U.K., Germany, and France together spend more than $18 million per year on academic relations with Canada alone, while Canada spends less than $5 million on our relations with the whole of the industrial world.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I find these figures questionable. However, carry on.
Mr. Stainforth: Higher EDUCATION institutions, professional associations and the provinces expect federal leadership in this area because it is a natural intersection between Canada's foreign-policy and trade-policy interests, properly the purview of the federal government, and EDUCATION interests, which are the purview of the provinces.
With regard to federal-provincial liaison, there is a consultative committee to enable effective cooperation and consultation in EDUCATION related to international activities. It is another area where the provinces are looking for federal leadership so that all parts of the country can cooperate to confront the challenges of globalization and competitiveness. Routine daily contacts are reinforced by occasional formal meetings at a senior level.
Concerning international co-operation, there are various opportunities, including international awards, which offer direct support to our policy to encourage students and faculty mobility. Awards from the Government of Canada and foreign governments enable persons of high academic standing to undertake post-graduate studies or research. Included are all areas of the arts, the social sciences and humanities, and the natural sciences and engineering.
These awards are usually offered on a reciprocal, bilateral basis with Japan, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico and others. Despite recent cuts, some countries, including Poland, the Netherlands, Colombia, Spain and Finland, continue to offer such awards unilaterally. There are also Commonwealth and other bilateral awards such as the Fulbright program.
We estimate that presently only 23,000 Canadians are studying abroad, compared to 60,000 foreigners studying in Canadian universities. While the department would like to expand student-mobility programs, particularly to provide more Canadian students the opportunity to study abroad, resource constraints work against that objective. Our goal continues to be the provision of a framework within which institutions and organizations can more easily make their own arrangements, and seek their own improvement.
In addition to the awards, we have international exchanges. They are not necessarily academic. We fund a bank of missions to facilitate exchanges of persons between Canada and other countries with which we have reached bilateral and cultural agreements. The missions are intended to provide exposure for outstanding Canadian achievements in art and scholarship. Applications from all cultural, social, or academic sectors are entertained, with some priority accorded to the promotion of Canadian studies abroad. The funding currently available provides for missions only with France and Mexico.
The department also assists international youth and young-worker exchange programs, which are generally open to Canadians between the ages of 18 and 30 who are looking for employment or opportunities to study abroad. Each year, there are about 20,000 participants, Canadian and foreign, and they must make their own travel preparations and pay their own costs in these programs.
Finally, I should like to emphasize the importance of the equivalence of academic and professional qualifications. There is continuing international work being done to ensure international acceptance of qualifications, which helps to promote and ensure transparency, which allows for greater mobility of qualified persons. This has important consequences for EDUCATIONal and immigration policies. The federal and provincial governments, through their support for the Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials, are co-operating to ensure a coherent Canadian presence in this work.
This international recognition of credits, the new distance-learning and open-learning technologies, coupled with a readiness to eliminate borders for academic purposes and to develop partnerships in centres of excellence, promise to alter radically the traditional approach to university EDUCATION.
Thank you for your attention. If there are any questions, I would be pleased to answer them.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Thank you for your presentation. Do you have any figures as to your department's budget for these international programs, whether to bring people here or to send Canadians elsewhere?
Mr. Stainforth: The global budget is in the order of $12 million. That includes a certain amount from CIDA and an amount from Foreign Affairs. CIDA, generally speaking, provides the budget for developing countries, and we provide the budget for the industrialized world. Our budget is about $5 million, and is being examined rather closely just now.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Your budget is $5 million?
Mr. Stainforth: Yes.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: And the total, if you take into account the budget of CIDA?
Mr. Stainforth: About $12 million or $13 million. There is somewhat more money available for developing countries than for our prime partners in the industrialized world.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If you put the two together, it would be around $17 million or $18 million?
Mr. Stainforth: No. The total is about $12 million or $13 million. CIDA's part of it is about $6 million or $7 million.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What kind of evaluation of these programs do you do? Everyone agrees that mobility of students is a good thing; it opens up horizons. I will talk about McGill University because I know it best. I do not know the situation for universities in other provinces.
McGill University has quite a large number of foreign students, from all over the world, and the university keeps ties with former students. The money for this comes out of the university's budget, their student fees and so on. They achieve quite good results and it is not costing the taxpayers any extra money.
As for spending $13 million for the programs you have mentioned, I would like to know what evaluation you make of the results. The reason I am asking about money is because there seems to be so little money available for universities and community colleges. All post-secondary institutions are suffering. I just want to make sure that we can evaluate the results of the money we spend.
Mr. Stainforth: There is no formal follow-up program whereby we go to each and every person who comes to Canada and ensure that they have done what was expected. However, we do expect individual reports on the results from persons who receive grants from us. We review the operations of the programs on an annual basis, to evaluate whether the program is working to the extent we desire. Those reviews form the basis upon which we fund the programs for the future. There is a regular review of the programs themselves and their results. Our perspective on the programs does change slowly over time.
We used to favour scholarships and fellowships almost exclusively, but we are coming to the view that we may get a better result for our money by focusing more on faculty programs. Instead of reaching out to young students and enabling them to come to Canada for a course of study, as we have done in the past, we will enable a faculty member from a foreign country to come to Canada to study for a shorter time and then return to an already-established position in that country and pass on the knowledge acquired here. By doing this, we may miss out on the opportunity to build a truly large and rich alumni list, but the cost-effectiveness will probably be higher. We are increasingly having to focus on cost-effectiveness.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Let us take 1995 for an example. How many people fell under the program, either Canadians going elsewhere or others coming here?
Mr. Stainforth: The numbers are dwindling rather rapidly. Roughly speaking, there are fewer than 500. Until recently, there were approximately 500 Commonwealth scholarships and fellowships available. That number is down to about 300 and is still declining. At one time, Government of Canada awards would have brought that number up to about 500, but the number of those awards is also declining.
Part of the difficulty in fixing that figure precisely is that many of the scholarships are spread over a number of years, so that the total number is decreasing from about 600 towards about 400 or fewer.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Is that decrease as a result of budget cuts or because there are fewer requests?
Mr. Stainforth: It is as a result of cuts. We simply are unable to fund the number of requests that we once did.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator. Senator Losier-Cool.
Senator Losier-Cool: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[Translation]
My notes are in French and therefore I will begin in French. The first part of my question is as follows: Is this area your department's responsibility? In terms of the research that may have been done, what types of jobs will be available internationally in the next century, in addition to the diplomatic posts that you mentioned? What kind of training should we arrange for Canadians so that they are available or prepared to step in to these positions? What jobs will be in demand?
[English]
I want to know where to send my grandchildren.
Mr. Stainforth: I have the same problem with my son. He is in high school. This is perhaps part of the difficulty with defining the nature of the problem. There seems to be a general agreement that something must be done, but there is less agreement on any specific action.
Canada and other countries are trying to create frameworks so that people will be able to find their own way into the brave new future. For example, we have in the past 18 months reached agreements with the European community, and with the U.S. and Mexico, which will enable universities and other EDUCATIONal institutions to accept each other's credits reciprocally. Students who want to pursue a degree by mixing their studies at the University of Toronto with a European or Mexican university will be able to do so without losing any credits, while retaining the flexibility to discover what is it this brave new world is going to bring to them.
I would be lying if I said that we have a clear notion that we should be training our students to become computer programmers or whatever. What we have seen is that these new technologies and new skills open up opportunities that did not exist before. Does that help at all?
Senator Losier-Cool: Yes, partly. Do you receive requests from other countries, particularly developing countries, to train students in specific fields of study, such as health or certain technologies?
Mr. Stainforth: Not in a significant way because our programs are not broad enough to cover such specific requests. However, I think that the people at CIDA who offer training find that whatever they offer is met with a response. We are unable to predict what people really want. Perhaps organizations such as the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada or the Association of Canadian Community Colleges might be better able to answer that question because of their broader understanding of the situation.
Senator Losier-Cool: It is important for our study to find out what training programs Canadian institutions should offer to students. We must offer them the proper training. If your department does not know, can you suggest whom we should ask?
Mr. Stainforth: I would suggest you ask AUCC or ACCC. You might also contact the Canadian Bureau for International EDUCATION, which is a non-governmental organization interested in that field. It might be useful to discuss this with the Council of Ministers of EDUCATION Canada, which is the provincial coordinating body in Toronto.
Senator Losier-Cool: You mentioned those who will be accompanying the Prime Minister on Team Canada missions. I was in Taipei in the spring, and my role as a delegate was to promote Canadian universities, with a view to recruiting foreign students. There are 10,000 Taiwanese studying in Canada.
Will that recruiting effort continue to be the main objective of the department on those missions or will job promotion be the focus?
Mr. Stainforth: We will have to see how it emerges. I would see two roles for EDUCATIONal members of those missions. One would be as a Canadian of learning and sophistication, representing the university community and Canada. The second role would be to speak to developments in the Canadian university community, which are rapid and far-reaching. The provinces are requiring the universities to act in a completely different way than they did as recently as three years ago.
The Chairman: I have a question about Radio Canada International. One of the great things about Radio Canada International was that it enabled people abroad to understand our Canadian culture and the opportunities available here. The CBC has more or less cut off Radio Canada International. Does the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade have any plans to pick up that tab and keep Radio Canada International going?
Mr. Stainforth: I wish it were possible to say yes, but because we are revising our priorities these days, I simply cannot imagine how the department could justify funding Radio Canada International, notwithstanding its tremendous appeal.
Perhaps, just as the university community is facing change as a result of open borders and different ways of communication, Radio Canada International will also be forced to change the way it reaches out to its audiences. I am interested because I have listened to Radio Canada International in places such as Pakistan and Africa, and I lament its problems, but I cannot imagine that Foreign Affairs has a solution to those problems.
The Chairman: Do you think Foreign Affairs might have some funds available to allow it to carry on, without necessarily giving more money to the CBC? There does not seem to be political will to give money to the CBC. Radio Canada International is important for Canada abroad. Perhaps there is some way that your department can come up with some money.
Mr. Stainforth: Speaking more broadly, we are reviewing the way in which we deliver the various parts of the third pillar of our foreign policy, projecting the image of Canada abroad. We are wondering if it is best to do that through the traditional departmental channels, and we are considering alternatives. If the alternatives develop in certain ways, then it might be possible to integrate programs from other departments. I know that sounds very indefinite but we are only just starting to consider this issue.
We are, these days, having to look on both sides of every nickel and trying to find other departments with nickels to contribute. While it may seem that the academic relations budget in the department is large relative to other sections, such as geographic divisions, one must remember that the absolute amount of money is quite modest when considering the number of students who are coming to Canada. We are trying to develop alternative ways of funding these programs, using such things as partnerships with other sectors. This review will take some time yet.
The Chairman: I have some further questions, but either my question or your answer has stirred up some interest from Senator Perrault, and he has some questions he would like to ask.
Senator Perrault: Mr. Chairman, we are involved in a communications revolution now. We often think of Radio Canada International as an interesting way to keep in touch with the country when we are abroad, subject to the vagaries of the weather and problems with the transmission of signals. With the new technologies, we are now able to provide perfect quality digital signals from any ground station. Indeed, that is being done in some parts of the world. There are other aspects of the communications revolution. Simon Fraser University, in my home province of British Columbia, now offers degree courses worldwide on the Internet.
This is an area that has enormous potential. We are a respected nation. We have high competence in the profession of EDUCATION. Are we doing any advance planning of how Canada's influence can be spread abroad on the Internet, which now has 55 million subscribers or users?
Mr. Stainforth: Yes. This goes back to the report of the Information Highway Advisory Council. Canada must try to have the best possible Canadian presence on this totally transparent communications network. It is absolutely true.
This relates back to my comments on equivalence and the ability to transfer and use credits you earn over the Internet from Athabasca University or from Simon Fraser University or from Harvard or wherever. We are very concerned with that, but we have reached no conclusions yet. The question is: What will happen if anyone in Canada can subscribe to, hypothetically, Harvard University, and earn a degree from there?
Senator Perrault: That is right. It is an exciting, volatile area.
Mr. Stainforth: Radio Canada International is presently offering courses in English as a second language on a local radio station in China.
Senator Perrault: The technical problems are all solved now. The signals go from our ground station up to the satellite, and a small ground dish can pick them up anywhere in the world, with perfect quality.
About two years ago, in Vancouver, I met the foreign minister from Indonesia, and he spoke of a number of challenges in Indonesia, challenges of which I was not aware. He said Indonesia is a nation of 1,000 islands, a fact which poses special problems as far as EDUCATION is concerned. I talked to some officials in Ottawa about it, and I know that other people were also apprised of this problem in Indonesia. It is a perfect candidate for Canada's long-distance-learning technology. I understand that a deal is being put together to have that technology possibly used by the Indonesians.
In our own country, the establishment of interactive classes is proceeding very quickly. There is even a commercial market to sell Canadian expertise to other countries. China is an obvious candidate for long-distance EDUCATION.
Mr. Stainforth: Yes.
Senator Perrault: I would like to think that your department is doing some very fundamental thinking on this subject. We might even be able to turn a few dollars, selling this technology to other nations.
Mr. Stainforth: We are doing some fundamental thinking on this. It is so fundamental that we have no answers yet, but we are working at it. There are individuals in the department who are studying this subject, trying to find out, in the first place, what the issues are, and, in the second place, trying to point to some steps to take in response to them. The technologies are so new that there is no formulaic response, but it is indeed very exciting.
Senator Perrault: There are so many questions we do not have answers for as yet. This area could be an integral part of our foreign policy.
Mr. Stainforth: We believe it is essential to the third pillar. The work that was done by the special committee a couple of years ago was very good. The report that was produced was very informative. It still informs our work and points our way on many of these issues.
The Chairman: Where are most Canadian students studying abroad? What are they studying? Are they returning to jobs in Canada or are they taking jobs around the world?
Mr. Stainforth: I cannot answer that accurately. Statistics in the EDUCATION field are a problem.
Until about two years ago, my department, along with CIDA and the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, paid Statistics Canada to collect data on the international student participation in Canadian EDUCATION. This slim booklet I have here is dated 1992, and it is the most recent one. It would have been published in about 1994.
The Chairman: Whom do you blame for that lack of statistics? Do you blame Statistics Canada or the minister responsible?
Mr. Stainforth: I am not entirely sure that it is a matter of blame in the current environment. The statistics were seen as important by Statistics Canada, by Foreign Affairs, by all of the departments involved, but they simply did not have the established resources to publish the findings as a matter of routine. Instead, it was done with special contributions from the departments concerned. There came a time about two years ago when other priorities simply forced us to discontinue what we thought was a good and worthwhile project.
Since then, the only numbers that we have are, in fact, from the Canadian Bureau of International EDUCATION, which publishes a national report on international students in Canada. This most recent one is 1994/1995. They use figures from Statistics Canada, but there is some question as to whether those numbers will continue to be available as resources dry up. I would note that they are asking $28, plus tax, for this "hefty" volume. It is the way of our world these days.
These reports have focused on international students in Canada simply because we have no effective way to gather statistical data on Canadian students going abroad. The data tend to be rather anecdotal and unsatisfactory. In the Statistics Canada publication, there was a small section on Canadian students abroad, but it did not delve into the kind of detail you have just mentioned.
The Chairman: Do you have any statistics on international students who come to Canada and fill job positions here?
Mr. Stainforth: No, I do not have those statistics. It is an interesting question and one which Immigration Canada data might answer. These would be data showing that people came to Canada as students at one time and subsequently came to Canada as immigrants. It is a question I would refer to Statistics Canada because it is outside the scope of my knowledge. I would be guessing.
The Chairman: Do you have statistics on how fees for international students affect the number of students coming into Canada? We hear that fees in Canada are much lower than they are in the United States.
Mr. Stainforth: I have statistics that show that, despite the lower fees, students choose to stay away. However, I also have statistics that show that, as soon as we reveal how low our fees are, students come here. It is a field which is prone to interpretation. Perhaps that is more a reflection of where universities have active recruitment programs than the general case.
The evidence we have seen, which is anecdotal rather than statistical, indicates that students are attracted to Canada by the fees, and by the clean and safe nature of our society, and that they are repelled to some extent by our climate.
We find that if we have someone working hard in a city such as Seoul, they are able to attract many well-qualified candidates. We also find, as a general observation, that there is a tremendous demand for the EDUCATION which Canada can offer. As I am sure you are aware, there is presently a great focus on the Asia-Pacific region. In practically every field, there is tremendous demand in the countries of the Asia-Pacific for the programs which are offered in Canada. We do not view the situation as one where there is a fixed pool of students which we have to share, in a brutally competitive way, with the Americans, the British, and the Australians, but rather it is a matter of reaching out in a way which will appeal to that large pool of potential students so that an increasing number will recognize Canada as a choice, and will come. In that regard, I return to the point that this is a big business. There is a great deal of money that flows into Canada as a result of the number of international students who are currently coming here.
The Chairman: Can you tell us if your department, through our embassies and high commissions across the world, actually promotes Canada to students who may wish to come here for an EDUCATION? If there is promotion going on, do you know who does it? Is it done by people attached to the embassies?
Mr. Stainforth: Yes. Generally, trade commissioners at all posts abroad are aware of the opportunities. They may promote these opportunities to a greater or lesser extent, depending on their personal knowledge or personal inclination, or the situations in their countries. However, beyond that, we have identified the Asia-Pacific region as an important area and have established a partnership with the Asia Pacific Foundation to set up Canadian EDUCATION Centres at various places around the region.
These centres are often established in conjunction with embassies and cooperate with those embassies specifically to promote Canadian EDUCATION. This is also being done in cooperation with Canadian EDUCATIONal institutions, so we are asking those who wish to have their services promoted to pay for the service. We are finding that many are sufficiently interested that they do pay for promotion.
Again, this goes back to the whole business of discovering ways to do the government's business using non-traditional methods, finding partnerships with non-governmental organizations and universities, to fund activities which until recently have been traditional government activities.
The Chairman: Do you think that this committee should recommend that External Affairs make a bigger effort to promote EDUCATION in Canada to foreign students, to keep our universities better financed by having these students pay more tuition than our regular Canadian students, and to have more students from abroad coming in and learning our way of life?
Mr. Stainforth: Yes.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Of course, you will say yes.
The Chairman: Are you able to quantify or measure any of the spin-offs from these programs, things such as better diplomatic relations or better international trade relations, through alumni who are well-placed in foreign governments?
Mr. Stainforth: We did a study just last year on alumni.
The Chairman: Do you have any statistics from that study?
Mr. Stainforth: The study was to consider more or less the same question you asked. We discovered, as with so many things in Canadian EDUCATION, the question becomes very complicated. We concluded that global tracking of alumni did not work, for many reasons, but that alumni were tremendously valuable resources for the local operations of some diplomatic posts. Therefore, we have wound up recommending that alumni should certainly be cultivated and encouraged in accordance with local need. For example, in Singapore the embassy would actively reach out to Canadian alumni in that region and try to build upon that base. There are members of the government in Singapore who were postated in Canada. This can be tremendously valuable.
By contrast, it is not so clear that this type of effort works in the United States. It is similar to reaching out to Canadians in general in a consular district.
The results are rather mixed on the question of alumni, but we have concluded that it should be up to posts to decide for their particular area whether to build upon this or not.
The Chairman: What would you say if this committee were to recommend that the Government of Canada maintain better statistics, in this era of the electronic highway, when everything is computerized and statistics can be kept so easily? Do you think that we do not maintain statistics of the circumstances abroad adequately?
Mr. Stainforth: We were active participants in that Statistics Canada international student exercise. If such a program were introduced, we would want to consider the effect of modern technology, open EDUCATION and transparent borders on such studies. Indeed, we think that these statistics are tremendously valuable and we will rue the day that funding for these exercises is no longer available.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I have a request. Would it be possible to receive copies of those two reports you have mentioned?
Senator Perrault: Perhaps the department could put it on the Internet.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I will not go and look on the Internet. I would like to read them.
The Chairman: If we can find them on the Internet, we can print them.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If I have to go to so much trouble, I am afraid I will never see them.
I understand that your department gives money to underdeveloped or developing countries. How do you make the choices? Did you say that Canada was spending $5 million while other countries were spending $18 million? I do not think the comparison is as bad as those figures suggest. I think we are even more generous than the other countries you mentioned, if we take the population into account.
I just want to know how you go about deciding which developing countries will get the $5 million.
Mr. Stainforth: The money to which I referred were funds that CIDA contributes to international EDUCATION in support, primarily, of grants for students coming here under the Commonwealth scholarship and fellowship program. As to the distribution of those scholarships and fellowships, I am sorry, I do not know what the basis is for establishing the numbers which are accorded to each country. I would have to ask CIDA for that information. I am confident, but not certain, that it was done in consultation between CIDA and ourselves. They would have determined what their assistance priorities were, and we would have discussed those priorities with them.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Would you generally support the recommendations of CIDA?
Mr. Stainforth: By and large. It is their money, finally.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Could you obtain that information from CIDA?
Mr. Stainforth: I can certainly inquire about that and inform you.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Thank you.
Senator Perrault: Mr. Chairman, we have discussed this morning the matter of providing places in Canadian institutes of higher learning for foreign students. My priority is to make sure that our Canadian young people have placements in our universities and that our schools are adequate for the challenges before this country.
I am very proud of one institution in my province, Capilano College, where young people are postated in many languages of the Pacific Rim. These young people are going out and doing splendid work on behalf of this country, and we are providing them with the tools. There are some battles to be won out there.
I was on a trade promotion trip to Thailand and Malaysia about 5 years ago. Our Canadian representative in Thailand told me that, many years ago, the Japanese had decided that they wanted to be the predominant economic power in Thailand, so they set up language schools and schools that taught their young people about the skills and the cultural habits of the Thai people, taught them Thai history. He said, "Now the invasion forces have arrived." The Japanese had moved into Thailand and he said it was almost like a military endeavour. He contrasted that with the harried businessman from Vancouver or Toronto who flies over to Thailand wanting to put a deal together in 48 hours, and then goes home defeated, never having been able to shake off his jet lag getting there.
What are we doing to prepare Canadian young people for the economic challenges out there?
It is all very well to encourage young people from abroad to study at Canadian universities. I would hate to think that that meant that fewer Canadian young people had those places.
Students from Hong Kong come from a jurisdiction where the top tax rate is 15 per cent. They can afford to spend a lot of money on EDUCATION.
Many of our young people today, who are from the best-postated generation we have had in this country, are not able to acquire the jobs that they need in our society.
I have been in politics for a long time. Twenty years ago, we looked forward to the technological era. We thought it was going to be a wonderful time. All these machines and devices were going to open up oceans of leisure time and we would be able to take every third year off to study at university.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: The young have plenty of leisure now because there is not enough work.
Senator Perrault: That is right. Company managers are getting bonuses for their ability to downsize. We are not work-sharing. I have spoken to young people who owe $40,000 on their student loans. They are unable to repay those loans in the way they would wish. This is a serious problem. It contains the seeds of social revolt if we do not do something about it.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You are right.
Senator Perrault: That is my concern. Capilano College is a great model, in my view, and you probably know of it. What are we going to do to help our young people win the economic battles they face?
Mr. Stainforth: I would not dare to answer that question. I will leave that firmly in the court of those who are running the colleges and universities.
I would just observe that the international students who are coming to Canada occupy no more than 3 per cent of the spaces in colleges and at the undergraduate university level.
Senator Perrault: You are not bumping Canadian students in the process?
Mr. Stainforth: They are simply not being displaced. That is all I would offer for comfort on that particular situation.
Senator Perrault: What are you doing in a positive sense to advance young people's skills in the postgraduate areas, to go out into the world and win a few battles?
Mr. Stainforth: In that regard, we are trying to enable institutions such as Capilano College, McGill University or the University of Toronto -- there are many -- to reach out to their opposite numbers in the United States, Mexico, England, Germany, France, and other countries.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What about Africa?
Mr. Stainforth: Africa is likely to be further down our list. We are trying to enable the institutions to reach out and link up with others. We are seeing this type of cooperation in the European Union, where universities from the various countries are associating themselves in conglomerates and offering cooperative programs of one kind or another.
We are seeking to enable Canadian institutions to enter into that same kinds of arrangements so that Canadians who are students at, for example, Capilano College can move without impediment, other than cost, to an institution in Holland or in Mexico and then take their credits back to Capilano College, graduate with full accreditation and with a broader understanding of what is going on in the world.
Senator Perrault: That is a great concept. These young people who are graduating from Capilano College are going out and working in embassies. They are working with companies that trade abroad. It is a major success story. If that process can be accelerated, I am all for it.
The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Perrault. Senator Losier-Cool.
Senator Losier-Cool: I share Senator Perrault's view of the role of our committee.
[Translation]
Money is just about the only reason why we promote Canadian universities in an effort to recruit foreign students. We want Canadian universities to survive. However, we must not lose sight of what was said in the Senate or of this committee's mandate. We are here to consider this serious state of Post-Secondary education.
We cannot do an about-turn and brag about Post-Secondary education in Canada. We have to respect our mandate and see what kind of solutions or recommendations the committee can propose in the best interest of Canadians. For example, we have the Pearson Institute and others.
[English]
That being said, there is an advisory council on the "inforoute" that the government has established, and they have put out a report.
[Translation]
The title of the report in French is "Pour entrer de plein pied dans le XXIe siècle". I have already attended one of the Council's presentation. The committee could access all information highway programs available from Industry Canada in universities. Perhaps these would help us get a clear picture of what is being done in terms of information highway training programs.
[English]
The Chairman: Thank you, senator Losier-Cool.
Before you go, Mr. Stainforth, do you have any strong recommendations that your department would like to see our committee put in its report for the betterment of Post-Secondary education for Canadians, in Canada and abroad?
Mr. Stainforth: We would welcome the support of the Senate for this international aspect of EDUCATION. It is an important area but a new area. Many of the avenues which we are pursuing are difficult to define. The overall concept is still not well-understood. However, we are aware that if you have gone to a post-secondary institution here in Canada and have had some international experience that you can bring to the job market, it is bound to make your future better.
I hope that the Senate will support the work that we and others are doing in this regard. The AUCC , the ACCC, the CBIE are all working in this direction, as are institutions such as Capilano College. The whole field is aware of the importance of international Post-Secondary education.
The Chairman: If they are all working in that direction now, they do not need a recommendation from us to do it.
Senator Perrault: We can provide support, though. We can add our voices.
The Chairman: We thank you, Mr. Stainforth, for your excellent paper and your attempt to answer questions that are difficult to answer.
The committee adjourned.