Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education
Issue 9 - Evidence - Morning Sitting
HALIFAX, Tuesday, February 18, 1997
The Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, met this day at 9:03 a.m. to continue its inquiry into the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
Senator M. Lorne Bonnell (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Welcome to Halifax, the capital of this great province of Nova Scotia. I am pleased to see a good representation of students here this morning.
I would ask each of you, in turn, to introduce yourselves and, if you are a student, perhaps you could tell us where you come from, what program of studies you are taking, and the name of your university or college.
After introductions I will ask Senator Losier-Cool to preside over the round-table discussion. During that discussion we will deal with any topics of interest to the students. If there is anything besides student loans that you are interested in, such a curriculum, research and development, or whatever is on your mind, please raise it. We will try to complete our discussion of one topic before moving to the next. I would suggest that we start with student loans and move on from there.
My name is Senator Lorne Bonnell, and I come from Prince Edward Island, the birthplace of Canada. Seated next to me is Ms Jill Anne Joseph, my clerk.
Please proceed.
Mr. Jarrod Hicks, President, Engineering Technology Centre, Cabot College of St. John's: I am a fourth year student in the electronic engineering technology program at Cabot College of St. John's.
Mr. Dale Kirby, Student, Memorial University of Newfoundland: I am majoring in psychology for my Bachelor of Science degree.
Mr. Dan Bessey, President, West Viking Association, West Viking College: I am studying journalism.
Ms Lori Lush, President, Central Newfoundland Regional College Student Association: As president of the Central Newfoundland Regional College Student Association, I represent students at our college.
Mr. Zaki Saleemi, Student, Memorial University of Newfoundland: I am in a four-year program doing a political science undergraduate degree.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I am Senator Losier-Cool and I am originally from New Brunswick's Acadian peninsula. I taught for 33 years in the province's public school system. In view of my background in the EDUCATION field, I am a very interested member of this committee.
[English]
Senator DeWare: I am Senator Mabel DeWare from Moncton, the home of the University of Moncton, New Brunswick.
Mr. Chris Lydon, Academic External Vice-President, Dalhousie University Student Union: I am in my fourth year of political science.
Mr. Charles Williams, Executive Vice-President, Mount Saint Vincent University Student Union: I was born in Moncton, spent most of my life in Newfoundland, and I am, as I see it, an honorary Newfie. I am in my fourth year of my business degree at Mount Saint Vincent.
Mr. Brad MacKay, President, Dalhousie University Student Union: I am in my fourth year of international development studies at Dalhousie University. I am originally from Huntsville, Ontario, but I am certainly a Maritimer at heart.
Ms Jessica Squires, President, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design Student Union: I am originally from Ontario and I have lived in Halifax for almost seven years. I am attending the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design taking a Bachelor of Fine Arts. As well as being the president of the Student Union at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, I am the Nova Scotian executive representative for the Canadian Federation of Students.
Ms Cynthia Snell, President, University of King's College Student Union: I am taking a four-year degree in sociology which I will finish this year.
Ms Amy Cole, Internal Vice-President, University of King's College Student Union: I am in my third year of a four-year history degree.
Mr. Sean Moreman, Executive Vice-President, Acadia University Student Union: I am originally from Montreal and I am currently studying for a German degree at Acadia.
Mr. Ross Blakeney, President, Technical University of Nova Scotia Student Union: I am in my final year of the mechanical engineering degree program. I am originally from Kentville, Nova Scotia.
Mr. Craig Keats, Secretary, Eastern Association: I am attending Grenville College in Cornerbrook.
Senator Forest: I am Senator Jean Forest from Edmonton, Alberta. I have had a long history in EDUCATION as a teacher, a trustee, and as former chancellor of the University of Alberta.
Ms Rhonda Coleman, External Vice-President, Mount Saint Vincent Youth Student Union: I am in the last year of studying a history degree.
Senator Perrault: I am Senator Ray Perrault from the Province of British Columbia. I served for nine years as a provincial party leader in British Columbia. I was elected to House of Commons and was Leader of the Government in the Senate for nine years. Our family roots are in Port Royal in Acadia.
The Chairman: I would like to introduce Mr. James van Raalte, my research assistant. If you ever need assistance in finding out what this committee is doing, you may contact him.
I will now turn the meeting over to Senator Losier-Cool for a round-table discussion.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: As the Chairman just mentioned, we want to initiate a discussion with you, one that we hope will be open, frank and informal. We are pleased to see students from the Atlantic provinces so well represented here. Therefore, the floor is yours. I do not know how you want to proceed. It may be preferable to try and summarize the topics that you wish to discuss, be it money or students loans, university programs or accessibility to universities. Have you appointed a spokesperson to initiate the debate?
Mr. Moreman: Would you prefer that I speak French or English?
Senator Losier-Cool: It makes no difference to me.
[English]
Mr. Moreman: It is important to point out that in the maritime region, in Nova Scotia specifically, we have 12 universities all vying for the same funding which the government is cutting back.
The maritime region is generally referred to as the "have-not provinces." Our universities are amongst the most expensive in the country, Acadia being the most expensive, Dalhousie being the second most expensive, and both are trying to offer seats to regional students who, following the trend of the have-not provinces, have no money to attend university.
We are concerned about what market Atlantic universities are serving these days. Acadia University, up until recently, has had a tradition of servicing regional students in the Annapolis Valley, but as we become more strapped for cash, it becomes more difficult for us to serve that same market. We are now attracting more students from British Columbia and the United States. Our concern is that, without government funding, our universities will need to become privatized, in which case the students will be absorbing almost all of the cost of their EDUCATION.
Acadia has already started the trend towards privatization because of the Acadia Advantage Initiative which incorporates notebook computers into the classroom. This has, in turn, added a $1200 fee to our tuition fee which is now $4,870 per year.
I am sure we all agree that government funding must be maintained, if not increased, to ensure that accessibility to students is maintained. I am also sure we agree that seats in universities should be reserved for individuals on the basis of academic merit and not on the basis of their ability to pay.
Ms Cole: I will defer to Jessica Squires, the CFS Nova Scotia executive on this issue, because I would like to address the need for a higher EDUCATION act, especially with the Canada Health and Social Transfer payment scheme.
Ms Squires: As we all know, a Post-Secondary education is becoming more and more necessary in order to survive not only in Canada, but also in any country in the world. Statistics show that, in order to gain employment, an applicant must have some level of Post-Secondary education. Unfortunately, due to the financial burden, more and more Post-Secondary education is a luxury that many cannot afford. This is a trend that started before the Canada Health and Social Transfer was implemented. Several years before that transfer payments were already being cut to Post-Secondary education. The trend has led to a subversion at the federal, provincial and local institutional levels of academic values to financial values, where the bottom line is more important than the preservation of the quality of the EDUCATION.
For that reason, I would strongly recommend a pan-Canadian agreement on Post-Secondary education, or a national EDUCATION act which would entrench the conditions under which quality in EDUCATION would be preserved. Those conditions would consist of accessibility of Post-Secondary education to any who wish to attend at any Post-Secondary education institution; portability of Post-Secondary education credits between provinces, between institutions, and between colleges and universities; and public administration, which is the preservation of the public funding of Post-Secondary education. This will enable the federal government to take back its responsibility in preserving the quality of that EDUCATION because it will be responsible for that through funding of those institutions.
I would like to add my voice to those recommending such an entrenchment of values.
Mr. MacKay: Sean talked a little bit about rising tuition fees being a barrier to EDUCATION and to accessibility to EDUCATION. However, there is another consideration and that is, as tuition fees increase, many students are forced to borrow larger amounts so, at the end of their EDUCATION, they have high debt loads which can be very difficult to pay back, especially when jobs can be difficult to find.
To try to address that problem, there have been suggestions of debt capping or repayment schemes which would be contingent on job opportunities, and so on. In a general way, I want to touch on accessibility with regards to debt loads.
Ms Lush: As a society, we must recognize the importance of our human resources and, to that end, Post-Secondary education is a must. Therefore, we can no longer afford to make it inaccessible.
Mr. Saleemi: More and more in Newfoundland, and I guess in the other Atlantic provinces, we find that graduate students of a degree, diploma, or certificate program cannot find jobs in this part of the country. They end up moving to British Columbia, one of the western provinces, or Ontario in most cases. Most of our brightest graduates leave the province and that is a drain on the employment sectors within the provinces. When positions open up you cannot find replacements and the job is opened up to the international market. We should be attempting to provide meaningful employment for our graduates. That issue must be addressed, and I believe this is the right forum to do it.
The other underlying concern is the increasing cost of an EDUCATION. The Board of Regents at Memorial University of Newfoundland implemented a 45-per-cent increase in tuition over a three-year period. When an increase is spread over a three-year period there is little reaction compared to the outcry that would follow a 45-per-cent increase in the first year. It seems many of these strategies are devised to put a mask on our eyes while we absorb these increments. The provincial government plans to have a fourth year of another ten per cent increase. That will result in tuition fees of about $2,300 a semester, $4,600 a year, which is an enormous amount compared to just two years ago.
Senator Losier-Cool: Do you still have grants in Newfoundland?
Mr. Saleemi: No, we do not have grants.
Mr. Bessey: Most of the concerns being presented thus far today are about the cost of EDUCATION. We are no longer living in the 1960s or the 1970s. It is not a matter of choice whether attend a post-secondary institution or not, we must, no matter what the cost, and we must go into increasing debt every year while we are doing that. With all the cut-backs, students are leaving school and declaring bankruptcy. We must either increase funding or find a way whereby EDUCATION is more accessible to the general public.
Ms Coleman: I think, in general, it is not just the cost of tuition that we must consider, it is the overall living costs for students who must leave their communities to attend university. In Nova Scotia we are facing a harmonized sales tax which will increase the price of the basic necessities such as rent, food, clothing, and so on. We must look at the overall cost to the student, not only tuition fees and books. Students also need money to live. We must promote a standard of living that is accessible to all students.
We must also consider the definition of "student." We traditionally define students as those people leaving high school at 18 and attending Post-Secondary education, but at Mount Saint Vincent, 65 per cent of our student population is nontraditional. We have a large population of single mothers. Therefore, we must look at the welfare system and at how the Canadian Heath and Social Transfer will affect us. These are programs that are initiated by the federal government which affect all students, not just the younger generation student. Why is there a resurgence of mature students coming back into the workforce? It is because there is no work available to them and there is a need to retrain.
The economic region of Cape Breton has been rposted to a point where we have no natural resources left. There is no hope other than tax programs. Miners have no access to pension funds. It has been rposted to a state where the living conditions of all people across class lines, aside from gender divisions, have been affected. It has been rposted to a point where it has become increasingly difficult to even put food on the table let alone think about accessing EDUCATION.
These are important issues which we must resolve for the future of our nation as well as the future of our students.
Mr. Blakeney: One problem that is amplified as a result of the cuts in funding relates to the high-tech EDUCATION sector such as computer science, and engineering. Those programs tend to be very expensive to deliver. They are also inherently tied to graduate programs in research. Therefore, we must attract the professors that are needed to instruct these programs. The government cuts have impacted on those programs even more than other programs because the costs of those programs are higher. It is very important, especially in today's economy, to ensure that students have full access to those programs because there is a demand for those graduates in the high-tech sector. We must ensure that those programs are accessible to students.
There have been some initiatives in Nova Scotia to move towards differential fees for those programs because they cost more. It is recognized that some students have better employment prospects once they have graduated from those programs, but it should also be recognized that students coming out of high school should not be forced to choose not to go into a high-tech program because of the difference in the cost. It is in the best interests of the country to ensure that students are not staying out of those programs due to cost alone. Students should make their choices based on the program they want to be in. If anything, the country should be encouraging people to enter the high-tech sector. You need not look very far across the country to see examples of government pumping money into high-tech industry. It is only proper that they give financial assistance to students so that they can complete their studies and then fill these high-tech jobs.
The Chairman: First, I would like to know if university students are satisfied that their teachers are, in fact, good teachers. A teacher might well be a Ph.D., but does he know how to impart knowledge? Are they required to take teacher's training or to learn how to motivate people?
Second, does the money from federal grants through the Canada Health and Social Transfer actually go into EDUCATION or does it go to, say, build roads in your provinces? Is the health component going towards the hospitals and health care, or are some of the provinces using that money for other purposes?
Third, is the same amount of money being spent on EDUCATION but is it, rather than being provincial money, federal transfer money, with provincial money being spent on roads and so on?
I would also like your comments on how students might be assisted in paying back their loans. They tell us that, today, some students owe as much as $40,000 and that they might only earn $20,000 when they graduate. When you consider that the cost of living has increased, and the fact that income tax will be dpostted from the $20,000 salary, it will take a long time to repay $40,000. That person could be left with, say, $10,000 to live on.
Should the student loan repayment be based on income? Should interest levels be curtailed so the debt does not keep growing? If a person could not get a job immediately upon graduation, he or she could end up owing $60,000 with accumulated interest. How can this be repaid in an orderly way so as to maintain a good credit rating?
I would just read to you the mandate of this committee so that you can better understand our inquiry. While respecting provincial constitutional responsibilities -- and you must remember that EDUCATION is a provincial responsibility, not a federal one -- we are authorized to examine and report upon the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada, including the review of:
(a) The national, regional, provincial and local goals of the Canadian Post-Secondary education system;
(b) The social, cultural, economic and political importance of post-secondary EDUCATION to Canada;
(c) The roles of the federal, provincial and territorial governments;
(d) The ability of Canadian universities and colleges to respond to the new, emerging EDUCATIONal marketplace including the change in curriculum and new technologies, distance, continuing and cooperative EDUCATION, and adult and part-time EDUCATION; and
(e) The Canada Student Loans Program and the different provincial and territorial student financial assistance programs as well as the growing concern over student indebtedness; and to identify areas of greater cooperation between all levels of government, the private sector and the EDUCATIONal institutions;
Perhaps you would first deal with the quality of the teaching of university professors.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I am also interested in discussing that subject. However, before we get to student loans, I would like us to focus on the issue of teachers and members of the teaching profession as such.
[English]
Are they good teachers? I realize that they probably are good teachers but with the rapid progress of technological change students are, in some areas, almost at the same levels of competence as the teachers. Should teachers have more opportunities for professional development so that they can stay ahead of the students?
Ms Squires: From my point of view, the responsibility to ensure the quality of instruction is currently in the hands of the individual institution and I think it is appropriate to leave it there, but I also believe that the province could play a role in ensuring that the methods used at the institutional level are sufficient to guarantee that quality is maintained. As far as directly requiring instructors to have certain levels of instruction, or certain kinds of instruction, I would be hesitant to agree that that should be a governmental responsibility.
I would point out that, because of funding cuts, institutions are being forced to hire more part-time instructors and make use of more teaching assistants as opposed to hiring people with more experience. They are, perhaps, being forced to implement those changes too quickly to ensure that the quality of instruction will be maintained.
Ms Snell: I would echo what Jessica has said about the part-time faculty. I do not think that you can separate quality of EDUCATION from the financing of the universities. Oftentimes, part-time faculty members are being hired to teach one credit or two credits at a university and, because they cannot maintain their standard of living on their salaries, they often resort, especially in Metro Halifax, to working at another university as well. They may be teaching two credits at Dalhousie and two credits at Mount Saint Vincent. Because they are too torn in providing their resources and skills in different directions, they cannot provide the same quality of EDUCATION.
Senator Losier-Cool: Are you saying that teaching in two institutions affects the quality of the teaching?
Ms Snell: It cannot help but affect it because they do not have the time to put into the specific courses that they are teaching. They are teaching too many courses to devote the time and necessary energy to providing the quality of EDUCATION required for each course. This is particularly evident in the part-time faculty. As Jessica was saying, that is being introduced because of funding cuts.
Mr. Lydon: The responsibility of teaching quality has come back to the individual institutions. At Dalhousie our department of instructional development endeavours to assure quality teaching but, again, that is not mandatory. It may be helpful to move towards a form of national teacher accreditation where a national standards could be established which ensure a certain level of quality assurance for the consumers, our students. If there were national standards establishing the level of EDUCATION to be achieved, the level of teaching skills to be employed, and the number of courses to be taken by instructors on the proper forms of instruction, we might be able to achieve a certain across-the-board quality of EDUCATION in this country. A provincial standard would also be helpful, but a national standard should be a priority.
Senator Forest: More and more mature students are returning to campus, many of whom are married or single parents, and they are having a very difficult time financially. I know that when I was at the University of Alberta a number of years ago, we had special programs to assist mature students, particularly aboriginal students. Are there any such programs in the maritimes which offer financial assistance to such students?
By a "mature" student I mean someone who has been in the workforce, is perhaps raising a family, and who, because of an inability to find employment, returns to university or college to upgrade his or her skills.
Ms Rhonda Coleman: I cannot specifically comment as to what programs have been developed and geared to nontraditional students. I believe "nontraditional" would be a more appropriate term considering that they are returning to campuses to retrain in order to look for new avenues of employment. I know of various retraining programs in vocational campuses. As far as professional programs are concerned, to my knowledge they are geared to all students. I know of no special exceptions that are made for nontraditional students.
On our campus we have a students' association for nontraditional students. They define themselves as students over the age of 24 who have families or who are returning to an EDUCATIONal institution on a part-time basis to retrain. This is an important issue because we tend to think of students as being those young people coming out of high school and entering their first undergraduate degree program. We tend to forget about the masses who are returning to obtain further EDUCATION.
What makes it especially difficult for them to obtain an EDUCATION is the fact that most are married, they do have children, and they have full-time employment. Approximately 65 per cent of our student population opts for part-time EDUCATION. It is easier for them to access those courses, but it takes longer to obtain a degree.
The longer a student takes to complete a degree program, the less chance there is of employability because of age requirements. It is easier, in some respects, to place a younger student in the workforce than a nontraditional student.
When considering the situation of nontraditional students, I would suggest that we set some standards and specific requirements for programs which are geared to these students.I realize that they are in a far worse position than I am. Although I will have a severe debt load when I complete my EDUCATION, I do not have a family to support now.
Senator Forest: I know that in Alberta if a student takes less than a full-time course of studies then he or she is not eligible for a student loan. This creates a very difficult situation for those who can only go part time. Is that also the case in the maritimes?
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: Mr. Moreman, I believe you have a comment to make about the student clientele.
[English]
Mr. Moreman: Being from Quebec, I know that same situation applies to student loans in Quebec. I am not very familiar with the Nova Scotia loan system, so perhaps some of the native Nova Scotians could answer your question specifically.
I would like to endeavour to link quality with mobility. It is important to have a national standard for professors so that universities will have an equal or similar reputation. If universities are required to evaluate their programs and teachers, naturally they will seek out an external reviewer who is generally favourable to their university. As a result, every university program will receive a positive review so that they maintain their reputation. I am not suggesting that some universities have educators who are less capable, but it is a possibility.
With a national standard, a student, whether traditional or nontraditional, would not feel the need to travel from Winnipeg to Dalhousie University to get a better EDUCATION and incur the expense of living away from home and, perhaps, uproot his or her whole family. With a national standard the professors at Dalhousie would not necessarily be better than the professors at the University of Manitoba.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: This point is one that is often raised by francophones from Western Canada who enrol in the Faculty of Law at the University of Moncton. For many years, Moncton was the only university that offered courses in French leading to a law degree. These courses are now also offered in Ottawa. Francophones from the west have had in the past to incur additional expenses.
[English]
Ms Squires: I just want to briefly address the question of mature students. I do not know the details but I do know that loans for part-time students are available in Nova Scotia and, I believe, in the maritime provinces. I also understand that some institutions have slightly different admission standards for students in those situations.
There are problems other than the problem of employability in the competitive job market after the completion of an EDUCATIONal program. Sometimes students have previous debt loads, either previous student loans or previous personal debt, that are not taken into account when the student is being considered for financial assistance.
Senator Perrault: There was mention of the decline in quality of post-secondary EDUCATION, and the fact that we need a pan-Canada agreement to preserve quality of EDUCATION. Of course there is some opposition to that concept from those who say that this is primarily a provincial responsibility and the national government should not become involved. Are there examples of quality decline here in Nova Scotia in Post-Secondary education? Representatives of other institutions have told us about much larger class sizes, longer work hours, and all sorts of things. Any examples of detrimental changes you could give us would be welcomed.
One of the participants of this forum mentioned the employment situation in Nova Scotia and said that we must create meaningful employment. Is the suggestion that there should be a proposal for subsidized employment or something to that effect?
I understand that, if you are taking a computer course, you must provide your own computer at a cost of at least $1,200. Could this equipment not be rented? It seems to me that that is a strange impediment to obtaining a degree in computer sciences. Could one of your computer people provide information on that point?
There is a mania for downsizing sweeping this country. Top corporate executives receive bonuses of $500,000 if they slash employment in their companies by 50 per cent. I think they should be honoured if they double employment and their market share. That would be a real achievement.
We are told that everyone now entering the workforce will require to be competent in at least four different skills in the course of their lifetime of employment. No longer is it a matter of staying with the same company for 40 years and getting a gold watch.
It is a massive EDUCATION challenge to retrain those people who lose their jobs because of this downsizing. People in the middle of their careers are being laid off. They have mortgages, and they have young people they want to help get through university. That is a serious problem which is confronting society.
Incidentally, in British Columbia we give the so-called "mature" students credits for real life experience, even though they may not have completed formal courses for which they have obtained certification.
I would welcome some views on these subjects.
Mr. Sean Moreman: I would like to clarify one of the questions that you asked, senator, about the leasing of the computer for $1,200. At this time last year, Acadia University realized that there would be a massive decrease in their grant over the next couple of years and that they must find alternate funding. They took it upon themselves to copy a model of a university in Wake Forest, North Carolina, that has incorporated a laptop computer into the EDUCATION system. Acadia has gone one step further and made this laptop computer, which is university issue, mandatory for all first-year students. They purchased 371 of them this year, and next year they will be used by all first-year students. The student does not have the option of using his or her own computer because the university wants to ensure that every laptop has the same software and also to be able to return the computers to their, they call it the "template," at the end of the academic year. They have cut a deal with IBM to be the first ones to do this.
Although this may be offering an expanded learning pool, it is also adding $1,200 to tuition fees. The student union requested that the university include the $1,200 in tuition fees because, otherwise, it would not be incorporated into the amount the student could borrow. I suppose, in hindsight, all we have ended up doing is increasing the debt load of students because now their loans are larger.
The only reason I raised that was to clarify the details of the program and what implications the program has by way of loans and cost.
Senator Perrault: I suppose a case can be made to have standardized software so that all the students have the same basic operating system plus the software.
Mr. Moreman: Yes. The student pays $1,200 every year for four years. Initially, the program was supposed to roll the computers over every two years or every 18 months.
Senator Perrault: They are obsolete within three years in any event.
Mr. Moreman: Exactly. That was the whole point. However, now the university has passed a policy that says they will roll the computers over at the discretion of the board of governors.
Mr. Bessey: Senator Perrault mentioned that the responsibility for teacher evaluations would be a provincial one. However, it has become more local in that almost every campus does this. Meanwhile, because of the teachers' union, which you are dealing with in teacher evaluations, it is very difficult to define incompetence as a reason for dismissal or to make any other recommendation. Students, basically, do not have a voice in teacher evaluations. I think students' views are important in respect of what teachers are doing and what we feel they should be doing.
Senator Perrault: The universities have very advanced methods of evaluation of their professors and everyone else, including the principal and the chancellor.
Mr. Bessey: That could be the case for universities. I am speaking from a college point of view. Our evaluations consist of sheets being passed around the class which we fill out. These sheets are then returned to the department head and, if necessary, the instructor will be spoken to. Nonetheless, the instructor can be incompetent and there is no way of defining that under the teachers' union and so that he can be dismissed.
Mr. Kirby: I wanted to point out that senators may find it interesting that, when this whole debate began, none of these student representatives addressed the transferability of credits, the professor to student ratio, or quality. However, every student did address the issue of cost.
Some $40 million to $60 million dollars was spent on trying to postate the inshore fishermen in Newfoundland who were on the TAGS program. These people were mature students. We are not sure what benefit has come out of that.
Senator Perrault: What kind of training did they take?
Mr. Kirby: A lot of money was spent on college programs.
Senator Perrault: Did they specialize in the computer sciences or marine biology?
Mr. Kirby: They took some technical programs and some broad-based programs.
To address Senator Bonnell's question about transfer payments and the Canada Health and Social Transfer, I would suggest that the problem is that funds for Post-Secondary education are not earmarked for that purpose. The money goes to the provincial government and they can do whatever they want with the funds. The result is that there is no money for PSE, it all goes to a variety of social programs of their choosing.
Ms Squires: To go back to subject of the quality of teaching, I would like to emphasize that I do not think any faculty union or any administration intentionally hires faculty members who are inferior. I also believe that institutions should retain the responsibility for hiring. Institutions are hiring part-time faculty, which cost less, and using more and more teachers' assistants in order to save money. It is not because the institutions are disregarding the quality of the teaching, it is because they have no other fiscal choice.
Senator Perrault: Do you suspect we are losing teachers from this area to other parts of Canada or the United States?
Ms Squires: I suspect we probably are. I know that we are losing faculty at many institutions. To where, I do not know.
I would also like to address your query about class sizes. I know class sizes are going up at institutions in Nova Scotia. At the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design first year enrolment has doubled in less than two years.
Senator Perrault: It could mean less attention for individual students.
Ms Squires: It certainly does mean that. There are cases where the delivery style of courses have been completely changed, from three sections of one course with 16 people in the class, to a lecture-lab style where 80 students meet and are instructed in a lecture style. They then have labs which are administered by undergrads who are not supposed to teach but probably are because the students might have missed the lecture or whatever. I regard this as a serious degradation of quality. The reason that this particular course was changed at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design was because they could not afford to hire additional faculty to administer the extra sections to accommodate the new students who were enrolling at the first-year level. The reason so many students were enrolled at the first-year level is because the institution needed the tuition revenue. It always comes back to the money. All the quality degradation comes back to a lack of funding.
Accessibility and quality go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other. Accessibility is part of a quality EDUCATION.
Mr. Saleemi: At Memorial University of Newfoundland we do no have a professor evaluation process. The only channel that is available to students is to approach the head of the department and he, in turn, will approach the dean or, if need be, the vice-president of the university.
I can cite a specific case where 65 per cent of the students failed a midterm exam which constitutes 50 per cent of a course mark. That is a very high percentage. Forty-five per cent of the students failed the course. The qualifications of the professor were excellent. He held a law degree and a Ph.D. However, all that will happen is that the head of the department will say, "Oh well, make sure this does not happen again." There is no process by which the professor will be reviewed.
Senator Perrault: Is the faculty association fighting this idea of evaluation?
Mr. Saleemi: Yes, most certainly. The student union has been pushing for this for two years, but the faculty union will not have it.
Senator Perrault: What reasons do they give?
Mr. Saleemi: They say it would hinder their contract negotiations.
Senator Perrault: Nothing to do with academic prowess or anything else?
Mr. Saleemi: No, not really.
Senator DeWare: Two or three weeks ago, some university professors appeared before our committee and told us that, because of the increase in class sizes, more of their time is taken up in their teaching and they have less time for research. We talked about students who had qualified with a Ph.D. who cannot find jobs in Canada and who are going abroad or to the States.
On the topic of a pan-Canadian EDUCATION agreement which would deal with accessibility, portability and so on, last year I had a discussion on this very subject and mention was made of the idea of an EDUCATION passport which would document a student's progress from high school graduation. Every course would be noted in this passport. This passport would be used across Canada. A potential employer would be able to see what credits the holder had obtained.
Mr. Moreman: I think something similar to that would be a good idea at the EDUCATION level, definitely.
Again, using the example of the student who travelled from Winnipeg to go to Dalhousie University, let us say that, after his second year, he runs out of money and must return to Winnipeg. More often than not, after two and a half years at Dalhousie a student will only get credit for one total year. However, with a passport, the mobility of credits would come in handy because the student would be able to finish his degree in the same amount of time it would have taken him if he had completed the courses at Dalhousie.
Financially, it would be beneficial to students. As well it takes into account personal reasons for not finishing a degree at a specific university, and the student is not penalized in terms of time when he changes institutions.
Senator DeWare: The university professors told us that we need an influx of millions of dollars into research programs. If funding for EDUCATION remains at the level it is at today or, perhaps, increased with the GNP, do you think it will be sufficient, or must there be a large influx of money?
Mr. MacKay: I cannot comment on whether there needs to be a large influx of money. Obviously that would be great with regards to the quality of EDUCATION. My experience, however, is that Dalhousie has undergone six or seven years of rationalization where they have been cutting administrative costs, they have had some vertical cuts where programs have been completely cut out, and obviously every program has undergone horizontal cuts where costs are cut across the board. It was very gracious of the administration to have a very open budgeting process where they held hearings much like this. However, they have had seven years of rationalization and then this year they have had to deal with a $2.5 million shortfall of funding governments. Of course, the result is a further cut to programs and an increase in tuition fees.
The question that I ask myself, and I am sure administrators are asking themselves as well, is: Can you continue to cut university EDUCATION any more than it already has been cut? Students are claiming, and I think rightfully so, the tuition costs and debt loads are becoming too high. Faculties are complaining that they are overworked, they have too many students, and they have too many classes. Administrators are complaining that their responsibilities have increased to the point where they just do not have time to give attention to detail.
Senator DeWare: Have we gone too far?
Mr. MacKay: The comment I have heard clear across the country in my year with the student union, is that that the cuts have gone too far. The quality and the accessibility of EDUCATION is now being affected by the cuts. I think that must be a provincial as well as a national priority.
Mr. Bessey: This past year I mentioned instructor evaluation to the area director at West Viking Bay, St. George Campus. He specifically stated to me that the problem with instructor evaluations was that it is very difficult to define any kind of instructor incompetence under the teachers' union. I would say that, at least for Newfoundland, that is what needs to be considered.
On the subject of credit transfer, it is very difficult to have community college credits for many courses transferred to either other provinces or towards university courses, even though many employers agree that a college course is as good as, and maybe in some cases even better than, a university course. The courses are often more practical and they are much more intense in some ways. I think credit transfers should be pursued and that there should be a better option for college students wanting to continue their studies with a university EDUCATION.
Senator Forest: In British Columbia we heard that the traditional movement was from college to university but that now there is quite a movement from university to college. Students finish their liberal arts or science degree and then go to colleges. One of the ways universities have tried to cope with the lack of financing is by cutting different programs and so one university will specialize in certain programs and I think that is why mobility is very important.
In my time at the University of Alberta quite a number of students went to Dalhousie, My daughter went to St. F.X., because of particular programs you have here. On the other hand, other universities offer different programs. I think transferability is most important because of the cutting in programs at different universities. Every university cannot be everything to all students, so universities must put their money into the areas where they are doing their best work.
Ms Cole: Yesterday, the Students' Union of Nova Scotia hosted a student finance forum where the Royal Bank of Canada gave us some wonderful information on student loans. We must be very careful in looking at needs assessment when discussing student loans. I do not believe that this is a major part of the debate now, and we must be careful that it does not become part of the debate again, because I do not think that the programs a student takes should be considered when applying for a student loan. You then get into a system where you are assessing whether somebody will have a greater potential for employment when he or she has completed the program. I do not think that someone taking a computer program or a high-tech degree should receive more favourable consideration than somebody who wants to go to university and study philosophy or history. We must ensure we have a variety of students in the system with a broad EDUCATION that can be applied to different areas.
Yesterday, the Bank of Canada stated that, if a student graduates with a $40,000 student loan debt which was incurred over a four-year period, and that debt is repayable at 8 per cent over ten years, and if the starting salary is $30,000, the debt ratio is 19.4 per cent. If you add to that calculation $400 for a shared rent per month the debt ratio automatically goes up to over 35 per cent. There is no incentive to become more qualified to work in an incredibly competitive workforce, especially when you will incur a debt load like that.
Senator Perrault: I hope, during the next two days, we will have an opportunity to discuss the role of the private sector in higher EDUCATION. While visiting a college the other day, we went to the library where we were told that one end of the room was the Royal Bank of Canada end, and the other was the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce end. We were rather startled by this. The Royal Bank had put computers at one end and the CIBC had installed them at the other end. We were told that this did not represent any threat to academic freedom. It may well be that, before long, we will have the McDonald's Hamburger Library.
Are academic freedom or principles placed in jeopardy because of the generosity of the banks who, incidentally, will require no tag day this year for their profits? There is corporate money out there that would like to identify with Post-Secondary education because, obviously, the belief is that it is good public relations. I would welcome your views.
Ms Squires: On the private-public partnership situation, there are probably places where the private sector could contribute financially to post-secondary EDUCATION. Even a McDonald's Hamburger Library is not an unrealistic concept. There is also the possibility of having rooms named after Kodak at the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design. It is another example of financial values becoming more important than the academic ones. It is a slippery slope to privatization which was addressed by a previous speaker.
Any kind of in-depth relationship with the private sector would lead to universities competing with each other for students. If you follow that line of logic, you will have an inevitable degradation in quality and the initiation of a two-tiered Post-Secondary education system in Canada.
Any kind of portability is something we should consider, but we must be careful that that portability does not confuse standardization of courses with standards of quality. Portability should be based on trust between institutions that the quality at one institution is the same as the other. Much of the objection to portability of credits has been due to institutional pride, one institution claiming that it has the best introductory engineering course which could not possibly be equaled by the introductory engineering course from another institution and, therefore, they will not give credit for it.
As to whether we need more research money or if freezing funding at present levels it would suffice, I would echo the previous comment that we must start to reinstate some funding. Nova Scotian institutions are looking at a 5-per-cent cut this coming fiscal year on top of what has already been cut, although I have no idea where they can make further cuts.
Senator DeWare: I know something about dental and medical courses and that these courses must come up to a certain standard before the university is accredited to handle them. That accreditation is very important.
My husband was on the Canadian Dental Examining Board for 16 years and, during that time, the examination system was changed because certain professors taught a better course than others, so the students who took the better course would score higher marks. They switched to a multiple choice system to make it fair for all the students across the Canada.
Mr. Bessey: I would touch on the question about academic freedom and banking. Yesterday, we attended a presentation from the banks at St. Mary's University. In my opinion, the banks should not be involved at all in student funding because students who have special finding needs must try to repay their debt on the same basis the regular public sector. They are being targeted by the banks for their student loans, credit cards, and everything else and, because of their increased need for this money, they are jumping at the chance to borrow from banks. The banks make it look good, so the students are getting themselves into the trap of taking on more debt than they would take on if they relied on a government loan. I think the private sector should be asked to present some sort of a payback form, such as that used by the federal and provincial government before, so that students will be able to afford to pay this money back.
Mr. Blakeney: I think private dollars are very important for many of our institutions. The private sector also has sponsorship programs which help many students. However, it is also important that the universities have an appropriate ethics policy in regards to this. With such a policy they will be able to avoid some of the problems. It is also important to maintain links with industry so that universities can stay abreast of what is going on in industry. However, universities must ensure they do not become a company training camp.
Senator Perrault: Are you suggesting that a code of ethics be developed along with some sort of national standard?
Mr. Blakeney: I am not sure if that is necessary. Some universities already have codes of ethics.
Mr. Williams: With regards to what Senator Perrault said respecting the quality of EDUCATION and the size of classrooms, when I attended Memorial University of Newfoundland for a year, some of the classes had 200 or 300 students, with one professor standing up in front of the class trying to teach that many students. It was quite ridiculous. When I came here, I had the chance to go to Dalhousie, Saint Mary's University, or Mount St. Vincent. The Mount is a small university, only 3,700 strong. It is not very strong compared to Dalhousie.
I am taking a course taught by the chair of the business department. This course is offered both semesters and once during the summer. Next year he has to cut back on at least 15 to 20 credits to stay within budget, which means that this course will only be offered either the first semester or the second semester. Some people might not be able to take that during the first semester, and if it is not offered the second semester then the student will have to take it over the summer. Then the student may have to put off graduation until October, so he will be there for another half year.
If the course availability is cut in half, more students will be attending each course, and that will affect quality. At the Mount the classrooms are not large. We only have one auditorium that is divided into four. I went to the Mount because of the size of the classes, but the classes will get bigger. The attention I got at the Mount compared to Memorial was a big improvement but, with the cut-backs, I think that will change. Being on the budget committee I know what the effect will be next year alone.
Ms Lush: You asked for specific examples. Our college system offers, through Memorial University, a first-year university program. One of our students who graduated from high school this term, decided to go to St. John's to do her first-year university, which is where the main campus is located. She was in a first-year psychology class, which is one of the requirements for any first-year program. There were in excess of 700 people in her class taking this course at the same time. They used two lecture theaters, the professor gave his instruction through video, and they had a couple of teaching assistants in the lecture hall to assist any student who had a problem with instruction. Unfortunately, there is no personal interaction. When she ran into a problem she eventually got an appointment to see her professor, but he did not know who she was. He could not associate a student number with a name. It was absolutely ridiculous. She opted to come back home and she now finishing her first-year university through our campus.
These are some of the things that our students must put up. When a student finishes high school where the maximum class size is 25 to 30 people, this new situation is very intimidating. It has gone too far.
Mr. Moreman: Being from Acadia I think I am in a unique position to be able to comment on privatization and the private sector dealings with universities because, with the Acadia Advantage we have contracts signed with IBM Canada, Maritime Telephone and Telegraph, and Marriott Corporation, all of whom supply funding through either monetary allotments or products such as the Think Pad computers.
Very briefly I will give you the party line of the Acadia Students' Union. If we had to choose between asking Marriott to supply the remainder of government funding or asking the student, we would choose Marriott. We would rather have the Marriott School of Music than no school of music. We do not have a problem with corporate funding as long as the corporation sticks to funding. The consensus of our student unions, is that the president of a corporation knows how to run a corporation, the president of a corporation does not know how to run an academic institution.
If we want to talk dollars and cents, that is fine. If corporations can make up for the lack of government funding, that would be preferable to students making up for the lack of government funding. However, our first preference would be that there is no lack of government funding. We would prefer governments to maintain and/or increase funding. If the choice came down to students picking up the slack or a corporation picking up the slack, corporations can feel free as long as the academic integrity of our individual institutions is maintained.
The Chairman: As to Senator Perrault's comment about the Royal Bank of Canada taking one-half of the library and the CIBC taking the other half of the library, I do not have an objection to that as long as the students are free to use the library as they see fit. I do not want to see Phillip Morris or Labatt Breweries sponsoring anything in the universities because I believe that may be a back-door way of becoming involved with the students and encouraging them to smoke or drink alcohol. However, I would have no objection to the banks becoming involved.
At UPEI, we have a situation where the family of the late K.C. Irving has donated $1 million towards the construction of a new chemistry building, which will cost $5 million. It is called the K.C. Irving Science Building. I would have no objection if K.C. wanted to contribute a few more million dollars to other universities. We could still buy Esso oil instead of Irving oil. I do not like the idea that he takes his money offshore to avoid taxation in Canada, but that is another question.
Many questions remain unanswered. I would like to know where you stand on cable in the classroom. I would like to know your position on the electronic highway and on distance EDUCATION. I would also like to know your views on co-op EDUCATION.
I recently visited Taiwan an in particular, Taiwan Engineering University. Every student goes straight into a job with a specific employer on the day of graduation. During the time they attend university their fees are paid by the company they go to work for. They work for that company every summer and, by the time they graduate with their engineering degree, they are experts in the field with that company. With cooperative EDUCATION these students are sure of a job. I understand in Canada last year about 6,000 people graduated with engineering degrees and that less than half of them have jobs today.
I also understand that about 12,000 jobs are available for people who are trained on the electronic highway.
My suggestion is that many more maritimers should take language training so that you will have the capability of being involved with overseas trade, either on behalf of government or the private sector. I think there would be opportunities for Atlantic Canadians who could speak Spanish, because you would be able to communicate in Mexico as well in as most countries of South America where Spanish is spoken. There is tremendous potential for jobs and opportunities in trade with those countries if you are familiar with the Spanish language.
If you have any further information you would like to pass on to the committee, our clerk will be glad to receive it from you.
I would like to ask one more question. How many of you are on e-mail today? I want senators to note how many hands have been raised. Ten years ago none of us were on e-mail. That is how fast things are changing. If you do not stay current with technology you will, very quickly, be behind the times.
Senator Losier-Cool: If you have information which could benefit our committee, please feel free to write to us
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we would now welcome Mr. Robert E. Gerraghty, Presidents' Coordinator, Metro Halifax University Consortium. Please proceed with your opening remarks.
Mr. Robert E. Gerraghty, President and Co-ordinator, Metro Consortium: I am accompanied by the presidents and, after I make the presentation, they will be able to respond in a dynamic way to any questions you may have.
With me today are: Dr. Colin Dodds, Vice-president (Academic), Saint Mary's University; Dr. Tom Traves, President, Dalhousie University; Dr. Alice Mansell, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design; Dr. Gordon McDiarmid, President, Atlantic School of Theology; and Dr. Sheila Brown, President, Mount Saint Vincent University.
The consortium took shape as the result of an interesting blend of change, and reaction to change, as well as a tempering of those changes and those forces that were affecting those changes. Canada, including Atlantic Canada found itself at a crossroads. Global forces, including trade liberalization, economic restructuring, the information revolution and the changing role of governments, presented both threats and opportunities to all of us.
The challenge for the province and the region at that time and now is to achieve economic and employment growth, and to maintain social well-being in the new socio-economic content, a daunting challenge today.
Nova Scotia's universities will play a key role in the province's transition to the new global economy and society. In addition to their traditional roles of EDUCATION and research, the universities provide access to information and expertise, attract people and investment to the province, and link Nova Scotia to centres of knowledge around the world -- functions that are crucial for success in today's world. In order for Nova Scotia to meet the challenges and seize the opportunities of tomorrow, its universities are called upon to contribute more than they have been called upon to contribute in the past.
At the same time, the universities are confronted with major rposttions in government funding. This, despite the fact that Nova Scotia's universities already receive the lowest level of provincial operating support per full-time equivalent student of any universities in Canada, and that support has dropped precipitously over the last fifteen years.
For more than seven years, the provincial universities have been engaged in a profound and critical examination of their strengths and weaknesses. The Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION considered every possibility, including a merger of all seven metro institutions into one University of Halifax, a federation with one Board of Governors, and a partnership of four institutions.
Eventually, it became clear that the notion and reality of a consortium offered the best course to build on the proven strengths of the Halifax universities and give them the most flexibility for the future.
The Metro Halifax Universities Consortium represents the response of the seven universities in Halifax to the dual challenge of maintaining and enhancing service to students and society while coping with unprecedented size rposttions in provincial and public funding.
The consortium exists in order to sustain universities -- the source and site of intellectual development and academic enterprise -- through a fiscal crisis in the short term. In the longer term, the goal is to make Halifax the most attractive Post-Secondary education community in Canada by offering a full range of high quality programs in a number of distinctive institutions, each of which reflects the culture and provides the learning community best suited to its segment of the population.
The presidents of the seven metro universities -- the Atlantic School of Theology, Dalhousie University, the University of King's College, Mount Saint Vincent University, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, Saint Mary's University and the Technical University of Nova Scotia -- understand that federal and provincial governments are rposting their expenditures in all sectors in the face of massive accumulated debt. We have agreed on an organizational plan to cope with funding rposttions which will minimize the damage to our students, our universities, and our province and, at the same time, provide new opportunities which would be impossible without the consortium.
The consortium proposes to achieve the necessary cost savings from attrition, early retirement and non-replacement of faculty vacancies, the effect of which would be offset by academic partnerships, other cost rposttions, and revenue generation strategies, shared systems and services.
The Metro Halifax Universities Consortium, while creating interdependence among its member institutions, preserves their individual autonomy and identities. It builds upon their combined academic resources more efficiently and effectively, creates a common organizational base to deliver shared systems and services, enables institutions to develop their specializations, explores increased collaboration across disciplines and professions, evaluates the potential for cost rposttion and revenue generation, and develops initiatives to reap that potential, and provides for maintaining the richness and diversity of our EDUCATIONal programs and cultures, all attractive to students.
The benefits of the consortium include the achievement of savings, the collaboration in the interests of students -- Metro Halifax and Nova Scotia -- the enhancement and preservation of the individual roles of the seven distinctive institutions and cultures, effecting economies of scale in shared systems and services, expansion of the choices and opportunities available to students, creation of synergies in academic programs, and an opportunity to build on, and advance, the trust received from former generations, and to promote cooperation, coordination, good will and mutual respect.
The members of the consortium will pursue, through their Senates, opportunities for joint academic and enrolment planning. The movement of students between campuses will be facilitated. Grades will be accepted at face value. Faculty members will have opportunities to teach courses in their specialities at other institutions. All of this will be subject to collective agreements.
A number of initiatives to develop new configurations of existing programs and resources across the metro universities has been identified. These range from potential new interdisciplinary programs in the arts, to joint international marketing of EDUCATIONal capacity, to collaborative efforts to attract more research funding to Nova Scotia.
The consortium is committed to an integrated and co-operative means of sharing systems and services to optimize the savings from the removal of administrative duplication and redundancy in Metro, without compromising the institutional culture or autonomy.
The business plan that was put together by the presidents was submitted to the Government of Nova Scotia on November 30, 1995, and was accepted by it on April 4, 1996.
Other changes to the plan which were submitted by the presidents were as follows: The Technical University of Nova Scotia agreed to amalgamate with Dalhousie University and to create a computer science centre of excellence within the consolidated institution by March 31, 1997; and the consolidated institutions will also promote excellence in engineering programs, delivering engineering programs in four, instead of five, years.
The key action to date has been the fact that there is greater co-operation among metro universities and we have brought to a halt the trend to separate and independent, and thus redundant, development. There is now a positive atmosphere of encouragement for collaborative activity among the partners.
There is a great deal more interaction at the unit level between the various academic departments across Metro, and this is bound to lead to more joint programming in the future.
One of the first efforts of the consortium was to engage consultants to investigate the feasibility of developing a common management information system. The results of this study, which involved hundreds of hours for the many people involved working with the two vendors -- SCT and Datatel -- concluded that a single integrated computer-based management information system that would meet the consortium's needs is not available.
The solution for the consortium is quite different from that envisaged at the outset, but it is one which makes the best use of current technology and, at the same time, allows the consortium to achieve many of its objectives. The consortium will eventually move from seven independent systems to two systems, with three institutions on one system and four on another. It will be possible to develop a consortium-wide information strategy and common data standards, as well as establish a common MIS service site with shared staff.
One of the most immediate benefits of the consortium was that the cost of the system acquired by one institution to meet its own MIS needs was considerably lower because of the consortium's existence.
The initial consortium plan identified large scale, top-down initiatives that could be pursued to achieve the goals of the consortium. Our experience with the MIS system investigation, the DAL-TUNS amalgamation, and the results achieved at the departmental level, leads us to an expanded strategy to build from the bottom up and to progress from bilateral and trilateral efforts and a development of a sound foundation of trust and success.
The metro presidents meet monthly to exchange information and receive reports from academic and administrative vice-presidents.
Academic vice-presidents also meet regularly, as do registrars, to address such issues as harmonization of academic calendar dates to achieve common deadlines and schedules, identifying and eliminating barriers to student mobility such as prerequisites, unwarranted limits or acceptance of transfer credits, inclusion of transfer grades in student grade calculations, and consideration of equivalence in course weights, grading systems.
Senior administrative officers are meeting to address shared systems issues such as management information systems options, financial issues related to mobility of students among institutions, and district heating systems.
A number of performance indicators have been identified and data are currently being collected to evaluate our performance as a consortium.
In conclusion, the consortium will officially celebrate its first anniversary on April 4 of this year. At that time we will have accomplished the following: a greater degree of inter-university cooperation academically and administratively; a greater degree of cooperation in marketing Nova Scotia Post-Secondary education abroad to international students; and a rposttion of barriers or impediments to student mobility in Metro by revising academic policies and practices. TUNS will officially amalgamate with DAL. This has been a very complex and time-consuming issue which included a movement to two information systems from seven.
Finally, it is important to note that the achievements are occurring in the context of dramatic rposttions in public funding.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for an excellent explanation of your amalgamation. Our member senators on this committee are from British Columbia, Alberta, Quebec, two from New Brunswick and, of course, they are led by a senator from Prince Edward Island who is a former student of Dalhousie University.
Can students carry credits from any one of these five universities to another without having to repeat and English course?
Mr. Gerraghty: Yes.
The Chairman: That being so, why do you need five presidents? Wouldn't one be sufficient? Other universities, which have more students than all of the students in universities in Halifax combined, have one president. Have you considered that?
Ms Alice Mansell, President, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design: I represent one of the smaller institutions, the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, which has an international reputation. We attract students from all over the world. There are many other programs across the country in fine and applied arts, an increasingly demanded area.
In answer to your question, sometimes five partners can provide distinctly different services to attract students who have different needs.
As an amalgamated university, and I speak from the experience of having worked in large universities over the last 30 years, Halifax can attract a greater number of students and we still, as I would remind you, have less public funding per student across those institutions. In an interesting way, we display a greater strength. It is rather like having five particular kinds of stores which attract different kinds of customers who want a service, an atmosphere, and a product that is particularly suited to their needs as opposed to shopping at a large store which has some empty shelves.
Senator DeWare: They would risk losing their identity.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I want to welcome the distinguished members of the Metro Halifax University Consortium. From 9 a.m. to 10:30 a.m., we held a panel discussion with student representatives. It was very frank and very informative. Senator Perrault asked these students to give him an example of the declining quality of teaching. The students gave the example of a teacher or professor who teaches two courses on one university campus and two others on another campus. Students did not exactly benefit from this arrangement. The professor felt that he had two rather difficult positions to fill and this caused him a certain amount of stress. Have you taken any measures to address this problem? Is this the result of your cut-backs? I seem to recall that on page 2 of your study plan as well as in paragraph 3, mention is made of the measures that have been taken to date.
[English]
Mr. Tom Traves, President, Dalhousie University: You have raised an important which concerns all of us. Perhaps I could address this concern from two directions, the consortium's perspective and the more direct angle that you were suggesting.
The view of the consortium is that we have a considerable resource in the city lodged in the professorial talents of the professors who are part of the different universities. In most instances -- and I would suggest overwhelmingly -- those professors will teach their courses at their home institution and, on occasion, will have students from other institutions participating in the class, but there would be some occasions when it would be useful for the professor, because of logistics or because of a concentration of students elsewhere, to teach the course on another campus.
I would not want to advocate this as a universal rule or possibility for all institutions in all locations but, in a city the size of Halifax, with the close proximity of the universities, the logistics of a professor driving from one campus to another is not terribly problematic. Their employment relationship with their home university is in no way severed. It becomes a matter of making best use of facilities and in making, frankly, the arrangements most amenable to the students. It is obviously much easier to move one professor to 20 students than it is to move 20 students to one professor. We try to maximize the efficiencies in the situation.
To date, all of the arrangements that we made in this regard have been voluntary on the part of faculty members. They have found it an agreeable arrangement and, basically, I think any professor who is actively engaged in teaching would rather be in a situation in which he or she would be invited into a classroom than have the students sort of dragooned into the classroom.
From the perspective as to how it will operate in the future, I see no serious difficulty in this regard. There is a concern on the part of students, which I share, that, with the continuing rposttions in budgets at universities, we may have to continue our process of downsizing the number of faculty members. Each institution has a smaller full-time faculty now than we did a number of years ago. To that extent, we are somewhat more reliant on part-time faculty. Perhaps your question was picking up on this reality. None of us is heavily reliant on part-time faculty but we are in some areas and, to some degree, they obviously make an enormous contribution to the university. On the other hand, their attachment to the institution and the need to find multiple jobs in different circumstances, makes this a less desirable relationship for them, for the university, and for the students.
I see this as entirely budget-driven. If we had the resources, we would have more full-time faculty members. In the absence of available funding, we make do as efficiently as we can and ensure that our first priority, which is to deliver a high quality EDUCATION with qualified faculty, be they part-time or full-time, is met.
Senator Losier-Cools: How does a part-time professor know which faculty or campus he belongs to?
Mr. Traves: Part-time faculty members are hired, normally, on a course-by-course basis. If you teach three courses, you have three contracts. All three could be with one institution or three different institutions. Each contract is a stand-alone arrangement, so that it is not a question of decision, it is a question of taking advantage of available job opportunities.
Senator Forest: I would like to congratulate the members of the consortium for what you have achieved. I had a long time association with the university and with two theological colleges, so I know it is not easy to come to a meeting of minds. You have probably chosen the best of all worlds because, even though you have not amalgamated everything, you have taken advantage of the cooperation. There is a building up of trust, which is very important, and you have preserved your identity.
I know that each of your institutions has a special identity, and although they are small institutions by some standards, you have particular programs of which many people from Western Canada have taken advantage, including members of my family. You are to be congratulated.
What difficulties do you foresee as you move forward with the amalgamation of TUNS and Dalhousie? What financial advantages do you see as a result of your amalgamation?
Mr. Traves: Just to provide some brief background, the amalgamation of Dalhousie and the Technical University of Nova Scotia will officially take place on April 1. Legislation was recently enacted in Nova Scotia to give effect to that, so we are in the last stages of organizing that amalgamation. It has been a most interesting process from an organizational perspective. Obviously, when you take two institutions with a considerable history, each of their own, and pride in their accomplishments and so on, there is a delicacy in the process of bringing them together to ensure, on the one hand, they have some sense of buy-in and stake in the outcome of the new institution they are creating and, on the other, to recognize the diversity, the history and the traditions of their older arrangements.
I believe we have managed to address those questions within the amalgamation, but it was not a simple matter. The emotional, psychological and human issues are not trivial in any kind of amalgamation, whether it be with respect to school boards, hospitals, or whatever. If you do not pay attention to those human issues, you may not achieve the desired results.
The down side, if there is one -- and I do not believe that there is a profound down side -- comes in unrealistic expectations for immediate pay-back on the arrangement. The rationale behind the amalgamation of Dalhousie and TUNS is fundamentally academic. We have relatively little overlap in our programs and, where we do, we are merging them. However, we see this as an opportunity for the two Ph.D.-granting institutions to come together, bring their research strengths together, and gain synergy from their enhanced relationship. I believe all of that is positive.
We will save some money because we are merging central administrative units. Because we had a reasonable amount of lead time in planning all of this, we were able to hold a number of jobs open within the amalgamated system in anticipation of this, so we will be able to present this amalgamation with very little job loss by a process of attrition and filling the existing vacancies. We think we have got that part right.
Lead time is very important. If, as a result of your generous comments, someone else proposes to do this, I would suggest they pay a fair amount of attention to the planning process and the lead time necessary to do this properly.
I would emphasize that I do not think this is a recipe for every institution. It works for us because we have complementary strengths, so there is comparatively little jockeying and turf protection. In the institutions where you are merging like-to-like, you might find the process somewhat more complex, more competitive and more difficult. Each case has to be judged on its merits. That is certainly what the experience in the hospitals and municipalities and so on has been teaching us.
Senator Forest: We have heard in the press that, perhaps, this afternoon's budget will indicate some relief of our financial difficulties. One of the areas that has been touted as a strong probability for additional funds is the area of research infrastructure. This morning the students told us of the difficulties of financing this area and, perhaps the situation is even more acute here than other parts of the country. Would you consider that to be the area in most need of additional financial resources?
Ms Sheila Brown, President, Mount Saint Vincent University: Senator Forest, research is fundamentally important to all our universities, not just those with graduate programs. It is also important to those of us who focus on undergraduate teaching. We have seen our research infrastructure, both from a physical standpoint and from a monetary support standpoint, deteriorate over the years. Some recent discussions suggest that there may be help forthcoming on both counts. That would be enormously helpful.
We need some stability in research funding not only for the benefit of those who are already conducting the research, but to encourage the new generation of scholars. In my own institution, for example, we have had to substitute because the federal granting councils have lost budget. We have had to shore up what we believe is a very important part of the enterprise. We are all hoping that, in any new infrastructure program there will be a focus on research and development because we have seen the physical facilities deteriorate. As well, those involved have been unable to keep up with the enormous technological changes.
I am sure that all the senators appreciate that, with increasing computerization, access to information is at the heart of scholarship, and the way to access information has changed dramatically in the last five to 10 years. We must up-grade our infrastructures in order to maximize the accessibility of our faculty, of our budding scholars of tomorrow, of our senior students and of our graduate students.
The Chairman: We will all keep our fingers crossed this afternoon at 4:30 eastern time for that increase in research and development.
Mr. Traves: Senator, perhaps I could add a comment on this point because I think it is of profound importance. We are eagerly looking forward to some of these announcements. This morning I heard the Prime Minister on the radio saying that there was light at the end of the tunnel. From my perspective, and this is just simply building on Ms Brown's comments, when we emerge from that tunnel into the light, it seems to me we will be emerging into the light of global competition. We are all aware of that.
The real issue that public policy makers have to think seriously about is how Canadians are going to be competitive and survive in a world which is increasingly globalized and increasingly competitive within the framework of a knowledge economy or a new economy. There is different jargon to describe it, but it all comes down to the same thing: One has to develop the brain power and the ideas of a society in order to be competitive in that environment. To do that, you need an organized research and development infrastructure, and you need well-postated people who can take advantage of the ideas that are out there.
The universities, obviously, have a critical role to play in all of that, and any support that we receive for improving the infrastructure for research and development, and for improving the capacity of students to go to universities and emerge without crushing debt levels, would be most welcome. From my point of view, that is a major public policy priority in this country.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I want to congratulate you on your amalgamation initiative. I see the universities in Montreal struggling towards the same goal, and it does not appear to be easy to do.
You say that the mobility between your various universities is an easy route for the students. Are you working towards making it even easier?
Mr. Gerraghty: It is not an easy route, but we are working towards making it easier. There are many impediments or obstacles or practices, I guess, that must be addressed and removed to facilitate it. However, the situation is improving every day. There is an effort on the part of the presidents to achieve a system where there is free movement.
Many practices have been ingrained in the seven institutions in a period of hundreds of years, so it takes time to change them. I am sure you know that a university is a very complex operation. We are working on it. The presidents believe this is of critical importance. The aim is to have mobility across the system, so that students can access these distinctive institutions, with their distinctive offerings, to gain a more rounded and a better EDUCATION.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You say are trying to do it this within your province, but are you also trying to establish bridges for mobility with universities from other provinces?
Mr. Gerraghty: Yes.
Ms Mansell: The Canadian Ministers of EDUCATION signed a document which was to facilitate mobility between institutions. I believe all of us have strong relationships with other institutions in other parts of the country.
When I was on the Team Canada tour, I was most interested to see how much collaboration goes on between universities across the country, and how the market share for each of us increased depending on how we collaborated. The Canadian system has many attractive aspects to it. The market is much larger than we can all accommodate. We can do a better job by working together as a system.
When members of our consortium could not agree on a particular structural change, we reminded ourselves that students would be benefiting and that we would be developing strings between disciplines and between institutions that would benefit students in creating new program opportunities, and it was amazing how quickly we could come to a resolution.
Mr. Colin Dodds, Vice-president (Academic), Saint Mary's University:This will add to the mobility that students have had across Metro, not only in regard to the transfer of credits but also, with simplicity in the administration of fees, someone can pay his or her fee to the home institution and not worry about the money being transferred. The consortium will deal with that. As Ms Mansell has said, in Atlantic Canada, we have all signed the pan-Canadian agreement respecting the transfer of credits for the first two years of our programs. We are certainly looking forward to attracting more students from the rest of Canada.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you have any data as to the number of students from outside the province of Nova Scotia and international students who are attending your universities?
Mr. Dodds: We have a net surplus of students coming into the province, as opposed to Nova Scotian students leaving the province to study.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You mean there are more students from outside the province than from the province?
Mr. Dodds: That is correct.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Has this has been ongoing for a number of years?
Mr. Dodds: A number of years.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you have many international students?
Mr. Dodds: Yes. The number varies with the program. Unfortunately, as a whole, Canada has seen the number of international students decline, but I believe we have arrested that decline in this region.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you think that the international students with bring with them all the benefits that Canadian universities expect from them, or is that a myth? From a cultural point of view, everyone has agreed that the exchange of culture is beneficial but I believe that Canadian universities are also expecting some financial benefit.
Mr. Traves: We have a substantial international student body at Dalhousie, as do several of the other institutions. The students bring a variety of benefits, some short term, some long term. As you indicated in your question, perhaps the most important element is the cultural diversity that they bring. That is not to be underestimated in terms of its value to the local students who, in some instances, have not had the opportunity to travel abroad and meet students from other countries.
Dalhousie has a number of special arrangements, either university-to-university or government-to-government, through which we bring students into restricted entry programs. In some programs, particularly on the professional side, be it in medicine or dentistry, for example, the Province of Nova Scotia has agreed to fund a certain number of places. However, the number of places that they will fund at the university has gone down over time, either because of their financial constraints or because of analyses of labour force needs and so on. Therefore, we have some surplus capacity in our medical school and in our dental school.
We have been fairly aggressive in trying to market that surplus capacity to the rest of the world at world competitive prices. At Dalhousie, a Canadian student who is admitted to our medical school, be they from Nova Scotia or any other part of Canada, pays a tuition fee of about $5,500. Currently, we have 10 international students in our medical school who are and paying us $35,000 a year. We have about six or seven in our dental school who are paying roughly the same rate. Recently we signed some international agreements with the Middle East to offer that arrangement in some of our health professions such as physiotherapy.
This adds significantly to our financial capacity to offer entire programs. Not only do international students benefit, but also the resources they bring enrich the program for our Canadian students. If these international students were not here, the seats would be empty as would the financial coffers. I see it as a win-win situation for Canadians, for Nova Scotians, and for students in those schools.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I am sorry I missed the students this morning but I doubt if what they said was very different from the view expressed by the student in the rest of Canada. They are all complaining about their indebtedness.
I imagine you provide have residences for your students. How much does such accommodation cost them per month? Do the universities make a profit on student residency fees?
Mr. Traves: At Dalhousie, we charge about $4,200 an academic year, which consists of two terms. You can divide that by eight or nine months, depending how long the students are here.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Does that include food?
Mr. Traves:It is room and board, three meals a day. I have been at two other universities in a senior position in New Brunswick and in Ontario, so I can speak for those as well. I think this is normal across the country. Virtually all of the universities run our residences as cost recovery centres. We expect the resident students to pay the bill, but we do not expect them to contribute to the profit of the universities. We do not run them as profit centres.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Leaving medical students aside because their fees are usually higher, how much would it cost a student in, say, law, for room, board and tuition fees per year?
Mr. Traves: In round figures, I would say around $4,000 for residence, that is, room and board. It would be another $4,000 in tuition fees, and probably between $2,000 and $4,000 for living expenses such as books and the normal sort of amenities that students enjoy. I could also answer that question as a parent who has had two children away at school. I found, on average, that the impact on my personal budget was in the $10,000 to $12,000 a year range, if I was paying all of their costs. I think that is normal across the country.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Somewhere between $10,000 and $12,000 for a year is a lot of money.
Mr. Traves: Yes, it is, and that is why we are very concerned about the student debt question. For those students who come from families of means, it is perfectly reasonable to ask their families to pay the full cost. For those students who have ability but come from families without substantial financial means, it is obviously an enormous burden. To the extent that they do not come, it is a tremendous loss for them as individuals and for the entire community not to take advantage of their talents. Therefore, this question of financial access as very important. That is why the student aid issue is very much in the minds of, not only the students, but the university administrators, faculty members and staff.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do the universities and the province provide loans or bursaries for students?
Mr. Traves: All of us have different kinds of scholarship and bursary programs. Dalhousie has a substantial program of hiring students to work part-time. Our surveys indicate that, at Dalhousie, about one in five students receives some money from the university while they are at the university, which is, I think, a pretty good record.
However, we also know that some students are seriously in need. We did a survey of our graduating students last year and one of the questions we asked concerned debt loads. That survey indicated, very roughly, that half of our students had a debt and the other half did not. Of the students who were indebted, the average debt was about $15,000 or $16,000. However approximately 10 or 15 per cent of the students were in the $24,000 range or more. We did not track the top. Some medical students, for instance, have told me they have $60,000 of debt. The top figure can be very high, but $24,000, as the beginning of the top level, is a substantial amount of debt for that number of students.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That is after how many years of study?
Mr. Traves: That would be after four years of study.
Senator Losier-Cools: Does the consortium have a position on private funding? The students this morning expressed some concern as to what extent a university should accept private funding. They said they would agree to private funding as long as it would not influence the academic aspect of the institution.
Ms Brown: Those suggestions have been made and, obviously, considered. The universities are fortunate to have already had a fair amount of private sponsorship. However, we must bear in mind that we are still institutions of higher learning. We do not want to become a billboard for various private sector organizations. There must be a fit, I think, with what the institution stands for and what the private funder is offering. Those things can often be worked out, but there is probably some limit.
We already do what we can to provide sponsorship through endowments, through contributions to building programs, and so on but, within reason, we must do whatever we can to keep the debt load down. Your question is obviously tied in with the previous questions. It is a matter of major concern to all of us and, with the kinds of populations we have in our university, as Tom Traves has said, the impact is felt differently by some students. We must do whatever we can to offset that and provide opportunities for work, opportunities for sponsorship and opportunities to offset costs, as long as it does not compromise the academic integrity of the institution.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Our concern is that a student has no assurance of a job and may end up with a $12,000 to $40,000 debt. Some say that the loans should be more generous, but a loan is debt, with the prospect of accruing interest. One of the avenues you think should be explored would be to create jobs for these students in assisting professors. Another avenue might be the possibility of encouraging the private sector to create jobs for them. Are there any other avenues you can suggest? I am really concerned about this because I would not have looked forward to starting my professional career with a $15,000 debt, and we were assured of jobs in those days.
Mr. Traves: I am sure you have received the report from the AUCC and other organizations. I would like to underline our commitment to this. It represents an unusual and hard-won agreement between not only the university administrators represented in AUCC, the presidents, but also the faculty associations and the student groups across the country. It represents one voice from all segments of the university, and I think the issues that they have highlighted there are the need, on the one hand, to target certain groups in our population who need focused assistance and, on the other, to make sure that that assistance comes, not necessarily in the form of loans, but in the form of direct grants to those who we know have real needs. Loans will not help them because they would not be able to take advantage of them.
There is also a need to have some generalized tax relief around some EDUCATIONal expenditures. We are hoping that the budget this afternoon will contain something about that. We hope and we believe that there are some financially viable and fiscally sound arrangements that can be made to provide some limited support to students who build up substantial debt loads, do not find a job, or have a job and then lose it and so, temporarily, are in a position where they find the payment of their loan a crushing burden. There should be temporary debt relief of some sort, up to a reasonable maximum sum.
All of these are ideas which are incorporated in those presentations which I am sure you have received, and which we think are very important from a public policy perspective. We can all do what we can in our own institutions with scholarships, bursaries, jobs and so on, but the resources available to us are very modest. This is a broad national issue, and it must be addressed by either provincial or federal governments.
Ms Brown: We, obviously, share the concerns you have, senator. What you are hearing from us is that students have to piece together the money to be able to attend university. For some, it consists of family support, plus working themselves during the summer. However, it is interesting to note that many of our students work, not just part-time but almost full-time during the school year, with a consequent effect on their own ability to fully benefit from their academic studies.
We all provide, to some measure, scholarships, bursaries and prizes, as well as the various loan programs, but what is very difficult -- and I think this is a public policy question -- is that, when earn money and we provide them with bursaries, sometimes their eligibility for the maximum loan decreases. It would be better if they contributed more, we contributed more, and the other amounts available to them would not decrease. The student could then increase the size of the total pot rather than just substituting the source of the money. The total funding for a student to attend university is made up of a mosaic of moneys. Unable to provide the total amount themselves, they often end up with distressing debt loads. We do hope that some of these other policy initiatives will address this.
Senator DeWare: I would like to compliment you on your presentation as well as on the positive approach you are taking to the funding problem.
I would just mention to Senator Lavoie-Roux that we have a Maritime Higher EDUCATION Commission that deals with the provinces here. As you know, New Brunswick does not have a medical school.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That goes back many years.
Senator DeWare: Dalhousie offers seats to their medical students.
What ratio does the student pays, the private sector pay and the government pays to fund a student at university? If we had a percentage breakdown from 1990 to 1995, right across the country, then we would be able to see just how the funding was changed. If Atlantic Canada was short-changed, it may have to do with the different profile of the universities. Did the profile change over those five years? Of course, if the students are paying more, then the government is paying less. What contribution does the private sector make and can we expect more from them? If we have this information we may be able to make an impressive presentation to the government and make recommendations.
Mr. Dodds: It is an excellent question, madam senator, but it is a difficult one to answer because the universities do vary very much. At Saint Mary's, for example, the provincial government is a minor shareholder in the funding. Less than 50 per cent of our funding comes from the provincial government. The majority comes from our students and from other sources.
Senator DeWare: When you say "provincial government," of course you know that comes from the federal government in the form of a transfer.
Mr. Dodds: Correct. That is partly historical. It is also partly because of the types of programs we have. Perhaps each president should comment on his or her own institution because the funding does do vary.
Mr. Traves: At the moment, across Atlantic Canada, about 40 per cent of the funding for the total operating budgets of universities comes from our provincial governments and they, in turn, get money from the federal government, but that is a separate transaction between them and the federal government; it has nothing directly to do with us.
About 15 to 20 per cent comes from ancillary services, the residences we run, the food services, the book stores, all the businesses we are in. Tuition fees account for in the order of 15 to 20 per cent, and then we get, again, about 20 per cent of our income from research grants and external contracts.
Endowment funds amount to a relatively small proportion of our income. Dalhousie is particularly fortunate because we have a long history and we have had some very generous benefactors, but even in our university, and I think we are second-per-student in relation to endowments, it accounts for only 2 or 3 per cent of our operating income. While it is terribly welcome and it makes a big difference, it does not pay the main bills. I do not know if those numbers totalled 100 per cent because I was not keeping track but it gives you a rough sense of the percentages.
Over time, government's share of operating incomes of universities has decreased significantly. That is certainly true of all the Atlantic Canada provinces and, I believe, across the country.
Senator DeWare: What about tuition?
Mr. Traves: Tuition fees have increased.
Senator DeWare: There is a graph that I would like the committee to have. I remember years ago Henry Hicks ran into a threatened student walk-out or strike. His comment to the students was that, because the private sector was paying so much towards the cost of their EDUCATION, the government was paying so much towards it, until students could pay 75 to 100 per cent of the cost of their EDUCATION, they had no right to strike. That was a long time ago.
Ms Mansell: Your comment is appropriate but I think we are now into a situation where we have to consider the cost of not postating our best students. As one of our colleagues said, if we think EDUCATION is expensive, we should try ignorance. It is much more expensive.
We have an investment to make and we are running out of options because our students do not have the resources. Universities are in a bit of a bind because public support is decreasing, and the market options for us are limited. There are some ways for us to develop other revenues but we want to make the services affordable.
In my institution, the cost of supplies and books has gone way up. It is an increasing cost that is not accommodated in any of the loans or grants. Students face this almost "hidden" cost.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Do you keep track of how many of your graduate students find jobs? I agree with you that EDUCATION is an investment. However it may be that we will find half of them -- I am just throwing that figure out -- on the street afterwards or not working? Have you got figures on that?
Mr. Traves: Yes. I believe tomorrow morning you will be receiving a presentation from the Atlantic Association of Universities, the presidents from across the entire region, and I know, since I participated in putting the data together, that you will receive a submission on that point. They will give you the figures as they relate to proportions of contribution, employment and unemployment rates, salary rates, all of which indicate that, while universities may be expensive, they are still a good pay back for the students.
Mr. Gerraghty: I would conclude by asking Dr. McDiarmid to make a couple of comments on the consortium.
The Chairman: I had the privilege of not only going to DAL as a student but also to Pine Hill Divinity Hall, where I was lucky enough to be offered cheap board. The theologians did not want to charge me too much. I was had the benefit of being able to attend both universities.
Mr. Gordon McDiarmid, President, Atlantic School of Theology: I am glad you have fond memories of our institution.
We would like to fortify your own appreciation of the import to us, and I think to EDUCATION generally, of what we are trying to undertake in the post-secondary world in Atlantic Canada, and particularly here in Halifax. In this room, to talk about historic connections, you have a picture of Thomas McCulloch, who was the first president of Dalhousie University. He founded Pictou Academy and was, therefore, the leading officer of an institution that led to the opening of Pine Hill Divinity Hall, the University of King's College, and Holy Hearts Seminary which, in 1971, not least for your interest, Senator Forest, formed one institution called the Atlantic School of Theology which, in point of fact, a quarter of a century ago was the first exercise in the rationalization of higher EDUCATION in this particular locality. It did not prefigure, it reflected the tradition of collaboration in this part of the world. Because of economic necessity and because of a fairly rich imagination, we have been prepared to work with one another in a way that respects our diversity but sees our complementary aspects, which I think is important in what we are trying to do now.
Necessity is the mother of invention, it is true, and because of economic circumstances, we have had to collaborate in this part of the world where, I think, a culture of learning is a matter of primary importance. You can say of us that we are a curious people and mean we are both odd and peculiar. However, we are also full of curiosity. We value the time we spend in EDUCATION and we would like to think that this particular enterprise is one that carries with it great promise, as well as some daunting challenges.
In a digital society, where homogenization is the order of the day, we are trying to sustain, under countervailing forces, a sense of the autonomy that belongs to our different institutions, recognizing at the same time we have got to work together in a way that augments each other to the advantage, not only of institutions but also of our students who are seeking, within us, a richness that will give them the kind of EDUCATION that will keep them, in this global world, in the forefront of imagination and expertise.
We are glad of what we have come to, and still ponderous about what we need to face.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I always enjoy visiting your campus.
The Chairman: What I find difficult to understand is that graduates from the Atlantic Theological College all go to the same university and use the same black book to get the word, but then disperse to different churches in the community and espouse a different philosophy. Somehow they are getting a mixed message. I do not know if that is holding us together or dividing us.
Thank you very much for your most interesting presentation.
We would now welcome, from the New Brunswick Student Alliance, Mr. Shawn Rouse, President, and Mr. Kelly Lamrock, Vice-president of Policy Development.
Perhaps, instead of reading your brief, you could touch on your concerns. Then I will turn to Senator DeWare from New Brunswick who knows your province so well, she will be able to ask you the questions that will go right to your hearts. Please proceed.
[Translation]
Mr. Shawn Rouse, President, New Brunswick Student Alliance: We will be presenting our brief in English, but if you have any questions for us subsequently in French, we will be happy to answer in either language.
[English]
We will try to keep our presentations a lot shorter than you might have anticipated by looking at our brief.
We are here today to talk about Post-Secondary education, its value in our province, and the future. What are our challenges in the future in Post-Secondary education? John Kenneth Galbraith noted that it is a central part of democracy. As the public has more control over the decisions, the more the public good lies with the populace aware of issues and individual responsibilities. We think that speaks to our points, essentially.
In New Brunswick, we not only recognize the societal benefits of post-secondary EDUCATION, but we also see the economic effects of teaching the skills students will need to succeed in the job market.
In our country, in the last five years, we have seen an increase of 1.3 million jobs for those students who have Post-Secondary education. At the same time, we have seen a decrease of 800,000 for those without. In fact, the senior economists in our province are predicting that the jobs for those students with five or more years of Post-Secondary education will double by the year 2000, while the jobs for those without will fall by more than half.
Of course, the conclusion you can draw from those figures are clear. For our citizens and students, our children, in the province of New Brunswick, to succeed, they will need access to Post-Secondary education. With the job market changing as a result of the effects of globalization and technology, people will change jobs more often. The intellectual capital will become more important. The emphasis will be on a person's skills, and we all know where we acquire those skills -- through EDUCATION.
On the subject of accessibility to Post-Secondary education, we must consider what effect rising tuition fees and the cuts in the CHST are having. Unrestricted grants from the provincial government to universities in our province are being rposted two per cent, and restricted or targeted funding will be rposted by one per cent if certain criteria are not met. Most of our smaller institutions have difficulty meeting those criteria. That translates into tuition hikes in the order of $200 to $300 a year which, over three years, means an increase of about $900.
A recent proposal put forward by UNB to deal with the cuts, suggested hiking undergraduate tuition in one program by $1,000. We are talking about people from lower-income and middle-income families paying $3,000 or more a year for their essential first steps of Post-Secondary education, a post-secondary EDUCATION that is just as essential as a high school EDUCATION. The standard of public funding for up to Grade 12 is 20 years out of date.
What are our challenges respecting accessibility? In 1984, 81.3 per cent of students in the province of New Brunswick were receiving student loans, something the Honourable Senator DeWare might remember. In 1995, 67.3 per cent of the students were receiving student loans -- a marked decline.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What types of loans did those students receive?
Mr. Rouse: The first dollar of any student loan is a Canada Student Loan. That has always been a meter of judging need, for not only us but for government as well.
Mr. Rouse: The reason for this decline is because tuition fees have gone up by 48 per cent or more, depending on the institution. That is the average in the past 10 years. Mount Allison had a 24.9-per-cent tuition hike last year. That is, of course, the high end.
Although tuition fees have gone up almost 50 per cent, fewer students are taking out student loans. At the same time, debt loads have more than doubled. I heard one of the people from the Metro Consortium noting that debt loads were, on average, $16,000.
Senator Perrault: That is in Nova Scotia.
Mr. Rouse: It is roughly the same in New Brunswick. However, if you are from a lower- or middle-income family, and you receive student aid, your debt load for your first degree could be $30,000 to $35,000, especially in light of future tuition hikes and the cuts to the CHST.
The reason fewer people are on student aid, even with tuition fees having gone up and the debt load having doubled, is because those who attended university in 1984 and who have the high debt loads, are having trouble accessing the system. I am referring to the employment situation we just talked about, the job markets. In the 1990s, our society is facing new issues. For example, ethical literacy is more important than ever, euthanasia is an important topic for discussion, limits to personal freedom are being debated and, of course, this is the computer age. Personal privacy has, pretty much, gone out of the window. How can we be expected to deal with issues like this without acquiring the essential critical thinking skills that are part of post-secondary EDUCATION?
A University of Utah study showed, the higher the rate of unemployment, the higher the rate of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, domestic violence, and depression. At the same time, the cost of retraining people later for the jobs they cannot access now is much higher than protecting tuition and low debt loads now.
That said, our enrolments are beginning to stagnate in New Brunswick for the first time. It is not enough to just provide tools such as access to student loans, we must actively bring people into the post-secondary system, not only because of the potential for employment, but for the well-being of our future society.
Mr. Kelly Lamrock, Vice-president, Policy Development, New Brunswick Student Alliance: It is important to talk about the state of EDUCATION in New Brunswick. The statistical trends, if we look at the report from the Maritime Provinces Higher EDUCATION Commission, are in fact the same in all three provinces. At the risk of taking Senator DeWare on a redundant stroll down memory lane, it is important to talk about what Shawn has pointed out.
In 1984, a four-year Bachelor's degree left the average student about $11,000 in debt. Today the debt load is $25,000 for the average student. In 1984, tuition fees were around $1,500 at Saint Thomas University. Today they are approaching $2,300. This is, I think, the most startling statistic: In all three provinces, fewer students are borrowing, even though tuition fees have gone up at a rate five times that of wages in New Brunswick. That does mean that those who borrowed 10 years ago are now being pushed out of the system, and I think it is safe to say that EDUCATION is less accessible in the maritime provinces than it was 10 years ago.
Other statistics also underline this trend. Enrolments are stagnating. It is also worth noting, honourable senators, that enrolments have dipped at the New Brunswick universities. They, traditionally, have had the highest rate of students who require to borrow money. This is particularly important at the francophone campuses which have recently seen enrolments drop.
We risk having fewer people go to school and, at the same time, no government has launched a comprehensive study of the effects of high tuition fees and debt loads on access to EDUCATION, nor has there been a comprehensive study by any government, federal or provincial, of any political stripe, that has considered the economic effect on a generation of people who start life with debt loads around $25,000 to $30,000. No one has considered what effect that has on consumer confidence, on the economy, on new businesses and on housing starts. I think that is, in fact, a real failure of political leadership in this country. We would congratulate the senators here today for taking on that task.
I want to briefly mention some of the solutions we have, because we do not want our presentation to be a litany of complaints. We want to participate and try to leave you with some ideas.
If there is one recommendation we want to impress upon you it is that tuition fees must not only be fairly divided in terms of reflecting what people can meet financially, but we also have to retain the perception of access. We know that not only are finances a factor in the decision to pursue post-secondary EDUCATION, the employment of the parents is also a consideration. Class consciousness and working class backgrounds are very important. However, according to Jeremy Rifkin, the blue collar worker could disappear by the year 2010. We have seen an explosion in the number of jobs for people with Post-Secondary education and a huge drop for those without. If we do not find ways to reach out to people who traditionally have not gone to post-secondary institutions, we will forever consign ourselves to having a permanent, "anxious class" in this country who will forever live in fear that a pink slip is around the corner, and who will forever require retraining. We must reach out and encourage more people to enter the system.
In order to do that, we must retain the perception of accessibility. Some economists will tell you that we can raise tuition because rational students will understand that their earning potential will go up by $200,000 over the term, so they should incur $60,000 of debt. Unfortunately, an 18 year old from a working class background does not fit the rational choice model out of a Pavlovian desire to make economists' models work. Perception is very important.
We propose a tuition restructuring notion in this country. We want to bring honourable senators' attention to things that have been done in the State of Georgia, under Governor Bill Miller, as well as recent proposals announced by U.S. President Bill Clinton. President Clinton, in June, made a very good point. He said that 50 years ago, we decided that 12 years of schooling is what every citizen should have. However, 50 years later, is 12 really enough or do the skills needed today require more? We should set the goal that the first two years of Post-Secondary education are as common for the next generation as Grade 12 was for the one before it.
In Georgia, the Hope Scholarship Program, is aimed at breaking down the initial barriers of the first two years. They wanted to find a way to get people into the system, whether it a college program or a university program. They announced a series of tax credits and tax rebates that would, basically, reimburse those people for the first two years of Post-Secondary education. That was an incentive for people to break down those barriers.
We also propose that tuition schedules be restructured in a revenue-neutral way to allow the first two years to be completed at a lower cost than the remaining years. That, I think, is absolutely essential to get people into the system. Once into the system, people can make better choices about their careers. However, we must initially reach out.
At the same time, we should restructure student aid. Presently, people are being scared off by the spectre of $25,000 to $35,000 debt loads, and that is perfectly understandable. We also understand that the government, quite legitimately, wants to target subsidies to those who need it most in these times when we must face fiscal realities. That is fair enough.
We suggest focusing on the two most important guarantees we can give to students. Initially, we must convince them that Post-Secondary education, in the long term, is worth it. Then we must first guarantee that, if they perform well academically, they will not get into too much debt. Second, we must also guarantee that, if they have trouble finding employment in the job market later on, we will be there to help them.
One way to do this is to have student aid based on merit awards. No province has really done this. In New Brunswick a student can get a merit award which means that, if she passes every course, she will have $500 knocked off her debt load. She will also receive a letter with signed by the minister. That, I think, makes political sense, but I am not sure it makes academic sense. I believe that, after subsidizing the first two years, we should tie further subsidies or further bursaries to academic merit. That will go to those who truly excel, those we know should be in the system, regardless of class background.
For three years, the federal government has been promising a harmonized federal-provincial student aid scheme. When the green paper came out in 1994, it was realized that tuition fees would increase, and it was proposed to introduce a harmonized federal-provincial student scheme to would cover that situation. Only half of the promise has been kept. There have been tuition hikes. There is still no comprehensive student aid scheme.
We would urge honourable senators to consider the proposal by the New Brunswick Department of Advanced EDUCATION and Labour, called an "income-based rebate program." It is a model of flexible repayment. Basically, it is a guarantee that a student's debt load will be paid off in a certain number of years, say 15, and the payment schedule will meet that time frame. For example, a graduate of law school may end up making $60,000 to $70,000 a year, in which case he would be able to pay off the loan in a shorter period. However, if someone goes through a tough period, the income-based rebate program would give back-ended bursaries so that, if the income dips below a certain level, the government will pick up the payments for a while. Presently, governments spend a fair bit of money giving bursaries on the front end which, of course, does not necessarily mean that those who need help with their debt loads will get it. That money could be better spent on an income-based rebate program that would target bursaries to those who need them most.
There are three prongs to the plan we have presented today: one, entry into Post-Secondary education as painless as possible and that approach should continue for the first two years; second, we should initiate merit awards which will guarantee that top performers will be assisted by society to attain a Post-Secondary education; and, third, let us create an income-based rebate system that targets back-ended bursaries to those who need help most down the line.
A further recommendation would be that we create a life-long learning fund that would allow families to put aside premiums, much like contributions to the EI system. According to economists, the average worker will change jobs four to five times in his lifetime. With the creation of such a fund, people would have access to moneys that they could either use for retraining or to send their kids to school. That is one of the best provisions we can make for Canadian families.
We apologize for the length of the brief which is a paper we will be releasing later. Being a full-time law student, I did not have time to prepare a brief.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: It is not bedside reading for me.
Mr. Lamrock: My writing style might be the best sleeping pill you will find.
We have talked about curriculum reform. A recent study at York University found that, in the three areas valued most by employers and most important to citizens -- critical thinking, problem solving and communicating ideas -- students in arts and science programs were showing no visible change in their skills completion of an academic program in critical thinking and problem solving. Even worse, marks showed no correlation to the student's skills in critical thinking and problem solving abilities.
Universities should not just throw new curricula at students and expect results. As one arts student said to me, the problem with an arts degree is that I merely learned how to regurgitate theories. Any degree program should instil in people the ability to learn and the ability to apply.
We ask senators to take note of some of the suggestions we have made including the creation of a learning passport, recognizing that forms of EDUCATION will be more flexible in the future because of real life experience and work experience. As well, we would suggest that we find ways to help returning students who go back to upgrade, especially those with families, to complete their courses quicker.
Students should be out in the community applying their skills. We should be looking at co-op programs that give real work experience. Business students should be out in communities helping to start businesses and get academic credit for doing it. EDUCATION students could help government set up literacy classes. Sociology students could volunteer to deal with some of the social problems and apply what they have been learning. Not only would we build a volunteer spirit in the country, people would be able to apply their knowledge to the task.
We should be creating applied arts degrees that create synergy between our universities and colleges so we no longer teach our thinkers not to work and our workers not to think. We should be combining critical thinking skills with problem solving skills.
We should reform governance. Presently, boards of governors are volunteers who meet two or three times a year. They can receive 400 pages of briefing notes two days before their meeting -- and we wonder why people think universities are not accountable. More stakeholders and more community activists should be on boards of governors. There should be a mandatory orientation period for members of boards of governors so that they can familiarize themselves with financial and university governance issues.
We must also seriously consider quality assurance. Some people think quality assurance means that we will draw up one set of indicators and, if a university does not meet those, their funding will be cut. The problem with the carrot-and-stick approach is, if you give the university a stick, they tend to stick it to us financially by hiking up tuition fees.
Let us, instead, find ways to allow each university to develop its own indicators based on its mission statement, and have a United Nations style reporting system on how each university is meeting its goals.
Let us create an innovation fund that rewards the universities who do well with an opportunity to initiate new programs.
Let us have testing that shows which universities are teaching students the most in terms of improving their critical thinking and problem solving skills.
Let us have student satisfaction surveys, both immediately after completion of a program and 10 years after graduation, to see if students have found their EDUCATION to be useful and if they are doing well in the job market.
These are the kinds of changes we can make that will make our universities not just worth investing in because we want people to attend -- and we suggest ways to pay for this in our paper as well -- but also institutions that can pay for themselves by offering the kind of dynamic EDUCATIONal system we want.
Again, we would congratulate this committee for taking on this challenge.
The Chairman: As a lawyer, you did a good job. Your client has been exonerated.
Senator Perrault: Thank you for an excellent paper.
Senator DeWare: I agree.
The Chairman: We will read the your paper in its entirety and get back to you if we need further assistance.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I read your very interesting brief. As students, you represent the only officially bilingual province in Canada. As a New Brunswicker myself, I am somewhat distressed to see you present a unilingual English brief. I would have liked to see in your recommendations something that would motivate all New Brunswick students to become bilingual. More companies have set up operations in Moncton than in Saint John, New Brunswick, the main reason being that Moncton could offer bilingual services. For many years, we heard that English was the language of business. Now, the Conference Board of Canada is telling us that the language of business is the language of the customer. I am not criticizing you, but is the University of Moncton represented by the New Brunswick Student Alliance?
Mr. Lamrock: Yes, senator. The University of Moncton and the two campuses in Shippegan are also members of our Alliance. We were one of the first groups to support the passage of Bill 88 calling for equality between linguistic communities. We have truly joined in the fight for a bilingual province. To my mind, bilingualism means that each individual is entitled to use the language in which he feels most comfortable in his dealings with the government. We have chosen to present to you the concerns of a francophone campus which has lost some measure of accessibility to Post-Secondary education in the language in which we feel most comfortable because we want to express these concerns as clearly as possible. That is the whole idea behind bilingualism, namely that a person can speak the language he is most comfortable with, whether English or French, when addressing the government. Therefore, I feel that we have truly represented our members in Moncton.
Senator Losier-Cool: I agree that you represent your members. I do not wish to get into a debate over this.
[English]
Senator DeWare: You talk about fewer students entering the programs in New Brunswick, and the big question is "Why?"
Representatives of the banks told us that 10 per cent of students end up owing only $6,000 in student loans. That is because they drop out of the system because they are concerned about the debt they might incur and they do not know how to handle it.
A young man and woman who decide that they are going to spend their future together may come out of the system, each with a debt of $30,000, and wonder how they can possibly get married and start their life together knowing that they owe $60,000, and they are both unemployed.
It is incredible what students have to face today. That is why this study on post-secondary is so important.
Your brief is very impressive, particularly because you include recommendations. Senate committees often hear representations from people who do not agree with the status quo, but rarely do they offer suggestions to satisfy their concerns.
As you know, bursaries are a thing of the past. How can we reinstate bursary programs? You suggest that there should be a merit system. Would that stem from an income-based rebate program?
Mr. Lamrock: Yes, that is correct.
Senator DeWare: That is one of your recommendations. Is that not being done now?
Mr. Lamrock: There is a modest number of bursaries. I am sure you remember the $2,700 bursary which kicked in after the Canada Student Loan. Today you would have a $4,000 federal loan, a $3,000 provincial loan, and then a small bursary for extremely needy students would kick in. To the extent that we are spending that, and to the extent that other cost savings in the system can be made, we believe that should be targeted at top scholars and it should be in the form of back-end bursaries. That would offer the assurance that, if the job market do not work out <#0107> and for 20 per cent of students that is the case -- there is a help to carry them through so they do not spend their life in debt or they do not end up having to declare bankruptcy or default on loans.
Too many students, I think, have been forced to default on loans they could have paid off if we had a more flexible system.
Senator DeWare: The banks told us that they have an 18-month plan which kicks in over a five-year program. If you start to pay back your loan, and you find that you cannot pay it for six months, then you need not be concerned because you have 18 months when you need not meet your payments. However, it is incremental. It could be three months here and six months there, over a period of five years. That does help.
You talk about the Hope Scholarship Program which would reimburse studetns for the first two years of Post-Secondary education. Have we room in our universities to encourage students to take Post-Secondary education if we set up a system like that? Let us say 12 years is not enough and the government would guarantee 14 years of EDUCATION, two of which would be post-secondary, do we have enough spots in our universities for those students?
Mr. Lamrock: I think it can be done. The capital expenditures in our universities are a lot lower than they were 10 years ago. Distance EDUCATION would be a consideration. There are ways it can be done.
Most importantly, government does have to step back and ask: What is the minimum level of EDUCATION people need today? At the same time, we must restructure high school curriculums. That is something we are not qualified to speak about, and we do not pretend to be. However, we must ensure that students meet that minimum level. If there are good people teaching good material to good students, we can ensure that people will get that kind of training. It may mean making better use of our community college system. I think we are doing a terrible job of streamlining people into the college system. I think we need to find a better way to make that an equally attractive option.
Senator DeWare: I hope you are right. I am looking forward to reading your brief.
Senator Perrault: I give you top marks for this superb paper. I congratulate you, your associates and colleagues who worked on what was obviously a project which has created many questions.
Mr. Lamrock: Thank you, Senator.
Senator Forest: I echo the compliments of my colleagues, and I am looking forward to reading it. I like the idea of merit scholarships. However, in the paper you state that at York University there was little or no correlation between marks and students' abilities, therefore, deciding who is a meritorious students will be difficult. However, it is worth exploring.
Your recommendations certainly twigged my imagination because, after so many hearings across the country, I was beginning to wonder if we would hear anything new.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I also want to thank you for your report. I am a little surprised to see in it recommendations that I would expect would come from universities rather than from students. For instance, you recommend a review of degree length be commenced, and you have many other recommendations that, I believe, should be the responsibility of university teachers or directors of departments.
I do not want to destroy your illusions but, when you say, the more postated a person is, the more opening he will find, unfortunately, in practice, that is no longer true. You are one of two who alluded to Jeremy Rifkin. More and more, qualified people, whether they be lawyers, accountants, and even engineers are having difficulty finding work. I think this is an issue that universities should carefully consider. I think what Jeremy Rifkin gave us is just a signal. However, this is a very extremely important question that should be considered in more depth. We must adjust learning programs to meet this reality. However, universities do not seem to pay much attention to this issue. Their only concern seems to be to increase the student body.
[Translation]
This is such an important and complex question that we must ensure that we are taking the right approach. I do not know if you have given this any thought, but it worries me a great deal.
[English]
The question is more complicated that just providing additional funding for universities.
The Chairman: We do not have any time for commentary.
[Translation]
Mr. Lamrock: There are responsibilities at each level, that is for universities, for governments and for students as well. We have tried to examine each level of responsibility. We know that there comes a point in time when the only thing that the government can do is create the opportunity for everyone else to assume our responsibility. That is what we are hoping will happen and we can talk about it a little bit later.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You should be telling your professors and your university presidents that there is a problem that is perhaps beginning to affect you a little. This could become a more serious problem for the next generation of students.
[English]
Senator DeWare: There was some discussion about the private secorinating support programs for the school system or the banks providing part of a library. Have you any comment on this? Now that the government is rposting its funding, so we have to go to the private sector for help? Is there a danger in doing that?
Mr. Rouse: There is a danger if the private interests start compromising the public message. I think it is important that business, as well as people at universities, labour, business, all act together as a community because Post-Secondary education, EDUCATION in general, is the most essential skill people will need going into the 21st century. Everyone must work together. However, of course, business interests cannot compromise the EDUCATION of our students. We cannot start teaching the philosophy of Big Macs because McDonald's is sponsoring the cafeteria. This is a very off-hand example, but I am sure you know what I mean.
Senator DeWare: Yes. We know.
The Chairman: Thank you very much for an excellent paper.
The committee adjourned.