Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Social Affairs,
Science and Technology
Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education
Issue 10 - Evidence - Afternoon sitting
Halifax, Wednesday, February 19, 1997
The Subcommittee on Post-Secondary education of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 2:05 p.m. to continue its inquiry into the state of Post-Secondary education in Canada.
Senator M. Lorne Bonnell (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have today with us Mr. Desmond Morley, Executive Director of the Federation of New Brunswick Faculty Association, and Mr. Ian Fraser, President of the Federation of New Brunswick Faculty Association.
Mr. Ian Fraser, President, Federation of New Brunswick Faculty Association: The Federation of New Brunswick Faculty Association represents the professors at the four New Brunswick universities. We are the umbrella organization, and we are going to be talking on their behalf.
I first want to thank the subcommittee on Post-Secondary education for inviting us to submit a brief and for allowing us to be here today to answer any questions you may have. Basically, I am going to just remind you of the recommendations that we made. Then I am going to turn the microphone over to Desmond Morley, who will give you the background information that allowed us to arrive at these recommendations.
If you look on page 10 of the brief, 11 on the French copy, you will notice that we are making three recommendations, and they are basically very general recommendations.
The first one is that the federal government immediately, and thoroughly, examine the relationship between Post-Secondary education and participation in the labour force as it now exists; second, that it determine, from presently known trends, what course that relationship is likely to follow into the new century; and third, that it give an appropriate weighting to that relationship when establishing its priorities for the transfer of funding for social programs to the provinces.
Mr. Morley will now elaborate on those three recommendations.
Mr. Desmond Morley, Executive Director, Federation of New Brunswick Faculty Associations: Honourable senators, I am privileged to be here today. You may have noticed that we entitled our brief, "The Future Ain't What It Used To Be", which is attributed to Yogi Berra. With this title, we wanted to demonstrate in an ironic and eye-catching way what has happened over the last several years in what is relatively, in the terms of political demographics, the short term.
Our objective today, as Mr. Fraser has said, is to make some general recommendations to this subcommittee, with the objective of illustrating the trends that have taken place over the short and intermediate term, actually, since 1979/80. Hopefully, as a result of that, we can enlist the support of the committee to give a critical re-evaluation to its role in post-secondary EDUCATION because of the growing interrelationship and interdependency between post-secondary credentials and the availability of employment.
The traditional roles of the universities was always from the ivory tower perspective, learning for the sake of learning, knowledge for the sake of knowledge, which are, and will continue to be, still critically important. In recent years, though, what has happened is that the marketplace, the economy, or whatever you want to call it, whatever the labour forces have deployed, have become more insistent on post-secondary credentials. We are not speaking particularly or only of university graduation but generally post-secondary credentials and in large part to university graduation not only for advancement within the workplace but, in fact, merely for entry into it at some point.
We wanted to give you a demonstration or an illustration of these trends. Thanks in large measure to the Human Resources Development Canada, New Brunswick region branch, we were able to present you with some graphs, which I would like you to look at. They are listed at Appendices I, II, II and IV, if you turn to the back of the brief.
I will just briefly go over Appendix I. I would like to draw your attention to the recentness of these numbers. You will see that the first block on the left concerning skills requirements is 1992 and the projections made by HRDC are only to the year 2000, which is only three years from now. From five years ago to three years from now, these are the demographic changes which have taken place or are likely to take place in the labour market.
In 1992, only 19 per cent of employed people required a Post-Secondary education or university graduation to be in the labour force, where 48 per cent were able to find a job if they had less than grade 12.
By the year 2000, 38 per cent of the workforce will require more than 17 years of EDUCATION, where 29 per cent will require less than grade 12. Therefore, those numbers are critically reversing in a very short period of time.
If I could ask you to look at graph II or Appendix II. Again, this was supplied by Human Resources Development Canada on Statistics Canada data. The employment population ratio by level of schooling has not changed greatly anywhere except in the group of people with grade eight EDUCATION or less. Everywhere else has remained essentially the same, except for the column marked "post part", which means partially completed Post-Secondary education, and that really does not relate to a large number of people so it does not really make a great deal of difference.
The parts that I would ask you to look at is the people with 9 to 13 years of EDUCATION, with "post comp", which means completed post-secondary EDUCATION not at the university level but some other form. Then at "univ dip", university diploma or graduation, they have all remained essentially the same between 1976 and 1995.
The big losers have been the people with grade eight EDUCATION or less. That has gone down from 38 per cent to 24 per cent who now have jobs and, therefore, bumping has taken place. The marketplace has now started to require more and better EDUCATIONal credentials to fill the same number of jobs as existed before.
If you will turn to Appendix III -- the demographics which I showed you on Appendix II were between 1976 and the most recent data that was available, which was 1995, but these statistics are more recent and they prove, I believe, what I have been trying to illustrate. Between 1990 and 1995, if you will look at the number, and this is not in percentages but in thousands of people, the people with less than grade eight EDUCATION, starting in 1990, going down to 1995, to the black column, steadily goes down.
The people with secondary EDUCATION, which is grade 12, again steadily goes down, with one minor aberration at the end. While, again, I say "post part" is partially completed Post-Secondary education, that is a demographic which Human Resources Development tells me is not really indicative of anything great, so it probably just muddies the waters.
The post-secondary completed at any other level in the university has again, with one minor change in the first year, 1990, steadily risen and university graduates have risen all the way through, without any fallback from 1990 to 1995. Their numbers are increased.
That column shows in thousands of people. If it is in percentages, we are talking in terms of university graduates, there has been an increase of over 25 per cent, something close to the order of 30 per cent now of university graduates' entrance into the labour force that were able to find jobs.
The last graph that we have is to give the senators some indication of the economic benefit that post-secondary graduates, and particularly university graduates, bestow on the economy. The average income of a university graduate in any age bracket at all is 42 per cent higher than that of the average income of, in fact, the next best postated person. In the peak earnings years between 45 and 64, it is 67 per cent higher than the next best postated person. The economic significance of those people being in the labour market, the savings, the consumer spending, the high level of personal taxation, cannot be ignored in terms of what benefits they, as university graduates who find employment and get high salaries, bestow on the economy. Their savings alone creates a pooling of capital for economic growth which is desperately required.
I submit that there is abundant evidence that the economy and the marketplace, because of those graphs that I have just demonstrated to you, is demanding even more people with post-secondary credentials, as I say, not necessarily university credentials. We would not pretend that they do, but if you have university graduation, you are more likely to get the job quicker and be better paid.
I would refer you to an analysis of that trend which was done in The Globe and Mail based on Statistics Canada data. It was published back on March, 13, 1995. The only thing wrong with that being so far out of date, which is now two years out of date, is the fact that it minimizes, because worse and more has happened since, but, unfortunately, we have not been able to get our hands on absolutely accurate demographic data and I did not want to work with projections before this committee. I wanted to work with real, hard numbers.
If you look on page 4 of our brief, I will just take some selected parts of the indented quote there from that Globe and Mail article of March 13th, 1995:
A new iron law is taking over the workplace. If you have completed some form of Post-Secondary education -- a university degree, a community-college diploma, a training certificate -- you're going to get a job. If you have anything less, you won't...
It then goes on to say how many jobs are added to the economy for people with post-secondary credentials and how many jobs were lost for people with less than those credentials.
It closes by saying:
University graduates never missed a beat [from 1990 to 1994].
Now, we are dealing with only a five-year period, not a 15- or 20-year period. For them, employment for university graduates increased by 483,000 jobs across Canada, which was a gain of 25 per cent. The article goes to say:
From 1990 to 1994, the economy created about 957,000 jobs for people with that essential piece of paper attesting to their postsecondary-school achievements. At the same time, it destroyed 830,000 jobs for people with anything less.
I would underscore that "anything less" means grade 12 graduation, not high school drop-outs or people who only went to grade 10 or grade 11. It means including grade 12 graduates.
Human Resources Development Canada tells us that the same picture was reflected in New Brunswick. That national scene, which was described for those four years, just took place in New Brunswick, almost identically.
From university enrolments, we gather that the general population is responding to the marketplace's demands and that is reflected in increased enrolments. On page 5, at the top, we have a paragraph where we quote from a publication of the Maritime Provinces Higher EDUCATION Commission which shows -- again, we are talking in recent terms -- that between 1990 and 1993, the number of students attending maritime universities increased from 51,000 to 58,400; an increase of 7,400 students, which is a 15-per-cent increase.
That reflects what we had said to the Maritime Provinces Higher EDUCATION Commission in 1989, where we had done a demographic analysis of what had happened in the decade from 1979 to 1989.
In that decade, there had been a 50-per-cent increase in university enrolments in the province of New Brunswick alone and that was despite the declining birth rate, because the participation rate of potential entrants into universities in the high schools, mainly, had increased by 65 per cent. Therefore, in the decade of 1979 to 1989, 65 per cent more people, of a shrinking group of potential candidates, were participating in university, and that is why enrolments were rising while population levels were falling.
Obviously, at least in the maritime provinces, within the limits of time and space that we have been permitted -- this brief, believe me, could have been a foot thick -- I think we have been able to demonstrate adequately that we have trends here in the maritime provinces, particularly in New Brunswick, which must be addressed in terms of the relationship between the labour market and the population's response to the demands of the labour market by enrolling in universities.
In fact, later in the brief I will get to the fact that, in New Brunswick alone, since 1979, university enrolments have increased by 70 per cent as of the last figures available.
Consequently, we feel the universities are now filling because they have been forced into the corner of filling a role which is not the traditional role that they are perceived to fill. Perhaps that is a wide-spread misconception that the universities are still the ivory towers of learning. We certainly do not call ourselves training institutions, and we would go to the wall saying that we do not train people for jobs. The fact is that more people are demanding admission and being admitted to universities because they wish to receive the credentials to qualify them for jobs.
Among those requirements is, as we say on page 6 of the brief, increasingly necessary analytical and logical skills required to perform the jobs that already exist. I think every senator around the table is aware of the technological advances that have been made in many areas. For example, a waiter or a waitress used to have to simply deliver a drink with a smile and take the money and go to the cash register, and that would be it. Now they have to operate, in many cases, a sophisticated computerized cash register system which not only updates the inventory but keeps tracks of all kinds of other data, and they have become, as well as waiters and waitresses, data entry clerks, data processors. Their skill requirements to be a waiter or waitress has to have meant a far higher requirement now than it did 15 years ago, or perhaps even 10 years ago. That is just the smallest microscopic example of the syndrome which is taking place and I think escaping a lot of the attention of too many of the people who make the decisions about Post-Secondary education.
The general population should also be trained to have the flexibility and adaptability to transfer as smoothly as possible between jobs because a person will follow many careers in a lifetime these days. It is hard to say how many careers, but I think the average person has seven careers in a lifetime these days. It may be more than that.
We are concerned that the fiscal priorities of successive federal governments -- and we are levelling that charge at both conservative and liberal federal governments alike -- have failed to come to grips with the new realities and the growing realities which are progressing at an alarming rate, which I hope I have been able to demonstrate by showing you those graphs. There is a very strong relationship between Post-Secondary education and meaningful, if in fact any, employment in the future.
Jeremy Rifkin, for example, the futurist and economist, predicted that technology virtually will have eliminated blue collar jobs by the year 2020. There are people who disagree with him, but when there are people making predictions like that, one has to stop and wonder how close to the mark he is.
If you were to compare what I have just said with the federal government's record -- and as I say this of conservative and liberal governments alike -- of transfer cut-backs to the provinces, you would find that in the last two years alone, from what used to be EPF, Established Programmes Financing transfers, $5 million was lost in federal funding to New Brunswick alone, $5 million that was earmarked for Post-Secondary education under the nominal form way that is used in New Brunswick.
Subsequently, we have gone on to the Canada Health and Social Transfer and it is predicted that, if the same formula is followed whereby the transfer moneys coming into New Brunswick are delivered to the province in accordance with the same apportionment as they were under EPF, Post-Secondary education will lose $18 million next year and $32.5 million the year after. New Brunswick and the rest of the Maritime provinces do not have the tax base to make up the shortfall.
I have never lived in Ontario or Alberta or British Columbia. We always say, "Well, they are richer provinces than we are and they can probably afford to make up the shortfall." Perhaps that is true, perhaps it is not. I have no idea about their finances. I do know, as a maritimer, that the maritime provinces do not have the tax base or other resources to be able to make up the shortfall in federal funding when funding is cut for Post-Secondary education.
I will not dwell on the issue, but basically, overall, federal funding in constant dollars since 1989 has gone down. In 1989 dollars, it has gone down in New Brunswick by 1.7 per cent, which might not seem very much, but during that same period, enrolments in universities went up by 17 per cent, in exactly the same period of time.
Over the longer haul, from 1979-80 until 1995-96, there was an actual real current dollar increase of 9.5 per cent, but at the same time, as I mentioned before, there was a corresponding increase in enrolment of 70 per cent. How the universities can absorb those huge, staggering increases without an corresponding increases in resources, I do not know, but they have somehow managed to do it. Right now, we know they are at breaking point.
The fact is, as one of the other witnesses said earlier today, we are on the point of the universities having to make up the shortfall by raising tuition fees, having to limit enrolments, and having to cut back accessibility, and the university is again becoming the preserve of the elite who can afford to go. At this particular time in our history, it is completely inappropriate for that to happen, because more people need to be postated to that level simply to function in the workforce. That is why we have made the recommendations which we did.
If you will indulge me one more moment, just to give the recommendations to you, to reinforce them: that the federal government immediately and thoroughly examine the relationship between Post-Secondary education and participation in the labour force as it now exists; that it determine, from presently known trends, what course that relationship is likely to follow into the next century, which is only three years away; and that it then give appropriate weighting to that relationship when establishing its priorities for the transfer of funding for social programs to the provinces.
We strongly suspect that there is a sentiment at the federal level and, in fact, in a lot of quarters in provincial governments that the universities are still simply centres of higher learning. They have, as we describe in the early part of the brief, instead become critical components in the engine of economic growth. We would like to think that the federal government is going to soon recognize that.
Senator DeWare: I thank you very much for your presentation. Of course, Mr. Fraser, the president of the federation, and I go way back. We do not see each other very often, but we did at one time, 10 or 15 years ago.
Actually, your recommendations focused directly on what the committee was set up for. Included in the committee's mandate is to make sure that Canada is ready for the 21st century. Our research departments and our students do not want to be left behind. We felt that we had sort of come to a halt in this country on funding for advancing our research programs. We also were very concerned about students who seemed to be carrying a debt load that they may not be able to handle and that it may discourage them from going into post-secondary EDUCATION.
It is interesting to see your that your recommendations are actually really part of our mandate. I was pleased to see those. You are absolutely right when you suggest that the federal government should immediately and thoroughly examine the relationship. That is what our committee is all about, so I think that you are focused in the right direction here.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: When did financial support to Post-Secondary education start to decrease? Was it with the transfer payment method?
Mr. Morley: Basically, yes. There had been an escalated formula. Again, as I said, we could have submitted a 40-page brief -- and I do not have the research materials, so if you will bear with me, to give some general overview. I cannot claim accuracy but I can give you a basic idea of the picture.
There was an escalated formula built into Post-Secondary education funding from the federal level under the old Established Programmes Finance Transfer Act. That was frozen, I think first by the Mulroney government, but I do not lay any particular blame at their feet because, as soon as the Chrétien government took over, they continued to maintain the freezes that Mulroney's government had brought in.
Although I did not mention it, but it is in the brief, we recognize that governments are trying to keep their debt loads at reasonable levels, and Mr. Martin has just claimed some success in rposting the deficit. We also recognize the fact that he has apportioned $800 million over the next five years for research in the universities. All of these things are very encouraging. The fact is that the escalated formula was frozen at one point and was then cut back on a number of occasions. That progression was maintained by the Chrétien government, so there is no more blame on one side than the other.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: But do we pass from the CHST formula? Which one was frozen?
Mr. Cameron: The EPF was frozen but CHST has also not transferred the same amount of money. There has been a huge chunk of money cut under CHST, which has resulted in what will translate in the universities in New Brunswick alone to an $18 million loss this year and a $32.5 million loss next year.
Now, to put that in perspective, the entire budget for all of the universities in New Brunswick is only in the order, for all four universities, of $200 million in total. So if you take $20 million out of $200 million, they are losing 10 per cent of their funding.
In federal terms, on a global basis, $20 million, when you are dealing with a budget of billions, might not seem like a lot, but to the universities of New Brunswick, where their total budget is only $200 million, $20 million is a lot of money, and $32.5 million is even more money. That is going to be a really big hit.
We are trying to postate people to be ready for the market or the marketplace, the economy, whatever you want to call it, in New Brunswick, at the same rate of increase that the marketplace is demanding people with those credentials across the entire country. As Senator DeWare can tell you, because she is from New Brunswick, we do not have the economies of scale that they have in Ontario or Alberta, and yet HRD Canada has reassured me, and I have seen the numbers, actually, for New Brunswick alone, the increase which has taken place across Canada which I reported from The Globe and Mail took place exactly the same in New Brunswick. There was a 25-per-cent increase in the demand for university graduates in New Brunswick, the same as there was across Canada. Therefore, New Brunswick is no different from the rest of Canada, but then it takes huge hits of federal money, big chunks of money that is taken out, which, in federal terms, do not amount to a lot. A few million in the budget of billions does not seem to be a lot, but to New Brunswick, to Nova Scotia, to Prince Edward Island, it is lot of money.
Senator DeWare: You do not have the population base.
Mr. Morley: Exactly. We do not have the tax base. The population of New Brunswick is less than one-third the population of the city of Toronto. We are a province. We have one-third the population of Toronto or Montreal. It is for those reasons that we do not have the economies of scale to absorb those kinds of federal funding cuts. We are just reeling with those kinds of cuts, and it is the same for Nova Scotia and P.E.I. and Newfoundland.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: So the transfer payments, you knew they were decreasing every year. Have they stopped decreasing? Are we going to carry on this way? We will know next budget, I suppose.
Mr. Morley: Exactly. I think another problem has been -- and I cannot speak authoritatively about this because I do not think actual decisions have been made -- that there is right now negotiation going on between New Brunswick and the federal government on a federal-provincial agreement on labour market training. We were invited to a seminar by the local MP on that subject just last Sunday. It would appear, because there was an element of post-secondary EDUCATION and, in fact, I was invited to moderate the panel on post-secondary EDUCATION, it seems that that must be part of that agreement discussion. The agreement itself was not there to be read and analyzed. I have no idea what is in the future for the CHST and what it is going to hold. I know for the next two years. What is after that, I do not think anybody will be able to project yet.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: So even this committee can make all the recommendations it feels it should make. If there is not a correction or a change in the transfer payment, we all wasting our energy.
Mr. Morley: Exactly.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Whether it is the university or it is us. I know that in Quebec there was a fear that suddenly there will not be any more transfer payments. That is what they have used mostly to cut out their deficit, because it is not only in EDUCATION, it is also in social services and social assistance. That is where Mr. Martin found his money.
In the meantime, you say the need for higher EDUCATION is greater than it was, say, 20 years ago. It is very discouraging.
Mr. Morley: I think that probably is a very insightful analysis on the senator's part. It gives me the opportunity to point out to the rest of the senators that our major recommendation here -- and this is why we are making general recommendations -- is that the federal government must do a critical, complete re-evaluation of Post-Secondary education in its new role since, at the very most, the 1980s. It has changed completely and it needs to be funded differently. Transfer payments, whatever, are not the way to go. It must be looked at as a critical part of the economic engine and dealt with properly in that way.
Senator Andreychuk: Are you saying that in New Brunswick, the cuts from the federal government are being directly passed on by the provincial government -- because one of the arguments of the federal government is that they have left some flexibility to the provinces to choose -- and that therefore you are suffering the hit because the provinces are passing it directly. They are not making discretionary manoeuvres within these cuts from health, from EDUCATION?
Mr. Morley: There has been a history of that in other provinces, and I would not single any out but I can honestly say -- I have been with the federation as its executive director and, therefore, its full-time bureaucrat for the last 12 years -- under the Hatfield government and subsequently under the McKenna government, that those two governments have been scrupulously fair in delivering to the universities what was nominally and morally earmarked under EPF for universities. There may have been a percentage point change, perhaps.
Senator Andreychuk: Have there then been equivalent cut-backs in provincial portions also?
Mr. Morley: Yes, basically. It would be hard to say within a couple of percentage points but, yes, basically.
Senator Andreychuk: It is a double-whammy.
Mr. Morley: They, in fact, have been tied by the amount. You must realize that, in New Brunswick, 55 per cent of all funding for Post-Secondary education comes from the federal government. When you add in the provincial portion and divide out who pays what, the federal government is paying 55 per cent of the shot for all Post-Secondary education in New Brunswick. Therefore, when you take a big hit on federal money, you are taking a big hit on 50 per cent or more -- more than 50 per cent -- on your total revenue with which to support it.
Mr. Martin's $800 million was very welcome. It is only for research and the infrastructure for research. The federation is talking about operating funding: the seats to put people in, the teachers to teach them.
A witness said earlier today, and I completely disagree with her, that the maritime provinces seem to have a good experience with class sizes. That is ridiculous. The University of New Brunswick alone -- I know, I have a son there, and some of his first-year classes had 300 or 400 kids in them. The University of New Brunswick by no means is the biggest university in this region. Dalhousie is even bigger. They have probably got a bigger problem, but I do not know firsthand about that. My son was in two classes, one with 300 and one with 400 students in the first-year introductory classes. That is no way to learn.
Senator Perrault: I appreciated that Yogi Berra phrase, "The future ain't what it used to be." I am associated with Vancouver baseball. Yogi said something else, too. He said, "No one goes to that restaurant anymore because it is too crowded."
Mr. Morley: I was going to close with that.
Senator Perrault: I tell you what is becoming crowded these days are the ranks of people who are victims of downsizing. We often forget about the mature student or the mature individual who is in the middle of his highest income-producing years, 45 to 65. He finds himself just simply cut out of a position, and it is a disaster and a tragedy for many families. You know them here in New Brunswick. I know them in British Columbia. Then we are told that some executives are given bonuses because they have downsized their companies by 50 per cent. I think the honour should go to those who increase jobs by 100 per cent and increase market share, but that is another question.
Is this not going to pose an enormous program of re-EDUCATION, especially when we are told that, during the course of one's lifetime, it will be necessary to acquire four different types of skills? That seems to be the minimum figure, four different jobs or positions. I yield to your expertise here.
Incidentally, I think the brief is excellent. It contains some good, hard facts that we can look at and study instead of just a philosophical approach to it.
Who is going to retrain these people? What happens to the executive at 45 who does not have any computer skills but still has a mortgage three kids going to school? Those are the real social problems that we have to grapple with, regardless of our party affiliation.
Mr. Morley: Exactly.
Senator Perrault: That is going to require a great many more instructors, to train them in new skills and abilities. I would like to get your view on it.
The Chairman: He agrees with you, senator.
Senator Perrault: The New Brunswickers give a more complete explanation than Prince Edward Islanders.
It is going to be a challenge to the teaching profession.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: We can make all the recommendations we want if the funds are not there.
The Chairman: But he agrees.
Senator Perrault: We are going to need to retrain these people and we need resources to do the retraining job.
Mr. Fraser: Could I just respond for a second? It is true that we are talking about there being a massive debt and we have to work to remove this debt, so everyone sort of has to tighten his or her belt. On page 9 of the brief, there is an interesting quote from "The Trimark Investor", which we thought was rather appropriate, hence why it was put in the brief. It says there is such a thing as good debt, and I quote:
...`Good' debt generally describes debt that's incurred to acquire an appreciating asset. That asset can be either tangible...or intangible, such as a child's Post-Secondary education.
We have to think in terms of the fact that this is an investment and not just simply a loss or a debt that we are incurring. It is an investment in our future.
Senator Perrault: The children and the young people are going to have to be looked at, but, as well, this new phenomenon. It seems to me we are in a sea change just about as big as the industrial revolution.
Mr. Morley: Indeed.
Senator Perrault: When we come out of it, we will realize the chaos we have been through. It is going to require more instructors to re-postate, is it not?
Mr. Morley: The whole point of Post-Secondary education, and particularly at the university level, is that once you have left the university, the adaptability and flexibility to which I referred earlier are already built in to your reaction system. If you are laid off at 35, 45 or 40, it is far more likely that having gone through the three or four or seven, whatever the number of careers that you may have gone through on average -- it might be four or five; it does not really matter -- the fact is that if you have been able to adapt and have that basic training in analytical and logical thinking, you will be able to transfer from one job to another. If you get laid off, you can be retrained easily and quickly. But if you have been a boilermaker for 30 years and then they try to train you to be a fighter pilot, you are not going to be able to do it too well. That is the whole idea. The demographics show that the economy, the marketplace, whatever you want to call it, is looking for that flexibility.
Bill Mulholland, Chairman of the Bank of Montreal, in 1989 said, "Send me liberal arts graduates. I will train them. I want people who can think. Do not send me economists and accountants and people who are specialized in one profession because they can only see down one tunnel." Sure, if they have a degree in economics or anything specialized, but do not concentrate all of their training on accounting or economics. Give them a good liberal arts EDUCATION. "We can adapt them to fit in the bank because, when they have outlived their usefulness in two or three years in what we put them into, we can then move them to something else and not lose the three-year investment we have in them because we can move them from one place to the other within the bank and they are not going to be laid off. They can be trained for something else." So give them a wide, broad base.
Mr. Fraser: Can I just add one small thing to that? Do not forget also that when Conference Board of Canada surveyed businesses and asked them what they wanted in their employees, they described a liberal EDUCATION to a "T".
Senator DeWare: I mentioned labour market training. There seems to be a little bit of concern, when we were discussing EI surpluses -- they were going to start giving the provinces the opportunity to do the training. I understand New Brunswick is in the negotiations of an agreement. Is that correct?
Mr. Morley: Indeed.
Senator DeWare: Our concern, or the concern that has been brought to our attention, is that the private sector is getting very involved in specialized training, basically, business and others, but if the private sector gets involved, will the province -- they are going to handle the money. Will they concentrate on the community colleges and support the colleges or will they be forced through politics or whatever to support some of the private sector? That is my concern.
Mr. Morley: Always a difficult one to answer. You have long been a politician; you would probably know the answer to that better than I would.
Senator DeWare: I would hate to see the colleges diminish because of the private sector, and there definitely would have to be standards.
Mr. Morley: I can only say again, and I say this with the utmost sincerity, both the successive Conservative and then Liberal governments of New Brunswick have been scrupulously fair in the apportionment of money even-handedly. If I were to be asked about another province, which I will not mention, I will say that they stole the money to build roads, because I know that is what actually happened, but in New Brunswick that has not happened. They have apportioned the money as it was originally earmarked under the EPF transfer system.
Senator Forest: I certainly appreciate your brief. It reinforces what we have already heard about the need for finances.
I do not know about the agreement that is being negotiated, but Alberta signed theirs a few weeks ago. I did not have all the details, but certainly the people in the province hailed that as a real breakthrough in helping in this area. I think it is a catch-22 situation, because right now we are paying 35 cents of every dollar on the interest of the debt; once we begin to get that down, then we will have more money. It is a case of how fast you can do it without destroying our institutions.
I appreciate the material you have brought.
The Chairman: I want to thank Desmond Morley. Mr. Fraser, we thank you for your very short presentation.
Senator Andreychuk: You made a very compelling argument as to why the investment of EDUCATION is important and that is being echoed around the country. I was also pleased to see that you were saying that higher EDUCATION is still important, that training minds and productivity is what we are after and specific training is another concept that can be built on to that. What you have made also by your statistics is a compelling argument that, if you do not have a Post-Secondary education, you do not have a job. Now, that leads one to the conclusion that everyone needs a Post-Secondary education. I hope you are not saying that.
Mr. Morley: I am.
Senator Andreychuk: You are saying that every Canadian will have to have Post-Secondary education.
Mr. Morley: Within reason, and the reason I say that is that, at the present moment, we are talking about a level of EDUCATION which is described in terms now of post-secondary, primary, secondary graduate, postgraduate. What I am trying to get across is that the EDUCATION level of every member of society is going to have to be improved, and the demographic trends show that. It is not a top-down situation. It is not the universities or the community colleges which are creating this situation. It is the marketplace which is pushing people up into the situation.
The marketplace demands -- as in my example to Senator Perrault; for example, a waiter or waitress now needs to know more about being a waiter, as well as a data entry clerk. That is the demand.
Senator Andreychuk: You have used a new definition of Post-Secondary education. If that is the case, and we were to be a committee to recommend the investment, and I hope we will get to that point with specifics, what do we do in the interim, when in fact retraining, including post-secondary, has not been the answer for many blue collar workers and in some cases people argue that that is not realistic? How do we ensure that every Canadian is in the equation, and particularly those disadvantaged by poverty, et cetera, who probably will not get to this new definition of Post-Secondary education quickly enough because you have already pointed out the lag time? How do we get an inclusive society?
Mr. Morley: Again, let me say that what we define now as post-secondary EDUCATION really is a level of EDUCATION, and as you go from one level to another, you go from one institution to another. I think it is as Senator Perrault described it: a sea change is taking place. I foresee that a sea change will take place in the way EDUCATION is delivered, for example, with distance EDUCATION, with various types of interactive EDUCATION, which I think will probably interest those people more and motivate people better who do not now have the capability, apparently, to get into what we now call post-secondary EDUCATION; in other words, EDUCATION at a certain level for the blue collar people, as you describe them, who are not now in the continuum which is developing, as you can see from Appendix I.
I think that that will eventually happen; that people will begin to be postated at higher levels just as a matter of natural progression. If we go back 100 years, the little red school house used to postate people to the level that they needed to be postated in the economy. The requirements of the economy, the marketplace, whatever you want to call it, rose and, strangely enough, now grade 12 EDUCATION is considered to be the standard and that is still called secondary EDUCATION. Yet now we call it grade 12; we call it secondary but it is in fact primary EDUCATION now. The ante has gone up and the ante is going to continue to go up.
Now, at the same time, some people 100 years ago could not have made it through to grade 12. Teaching methods and everything else that has gone along with the development of the EDUCATIONal system have allowed more people to be able to get postated and graduate at the grade 12 level. I think that is going to happen at the post-secondary level, but that is why the entire EDUCATION system needs to be sorted out completely because more skills are required with less facilities.
Senator Andreychuk: Your definition of post-secondary is a revamping of all of the systems.
Mr. Morley: Exactly.
The Chairman: Thank you, Dr. Fraser and Mr. Morley, for your excellent brief.
Mr. Morley: Thank you, honourable senators.
The Chairman:Honourable senators, we now have from the Association of Atlantic Universities Dr. Arthur May, Chair and President of Memorial University, Newfoundland. Some of you might have known Dr. May in Ottawa, when he was with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. He has now has gone down to that great university in New Brunswick. I do not know if he went down with John Crosbie or not, but he followed him down there. He became the chancellor and Dr. May became the president, so they kind of took over from the Department of Fisheries. And there was no fish.
Dr. May, you might introduce your people, or have them introduce themselves, and tell us what university they represent so we can get their name on the record.
Mr. Arthur May, Chair and President, Memorial University of Newfoundland: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for your introduction of myself. Indeed, we now have a former federal Minister of Fisheries and a former Deputy Minister of Fisheries as chancellor and president of Memorial.
The Chairman: No fish.
Mr. May: No fish, no. That is why we are at the university. Let me introduce my colleagues. We have 19 universities in the Atlantic. We did not bring everybody, but we thought it would be good for the committee to be able to hear from people who are broadly representative. Elizabeth Epperley is President of the University of Prince Edward Island; Harley D'Entremont is President, Université Sainte-Anne of Nova Scotia; Colin Starnes is President of King's College here in Halifax; Ken Ozmon is the President of Saint Mary's University in Halifax; Alice Mansell is President of the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, whose hospitality you are now enjoying; Bernie MacDonald had to leave. We are expecting Jacquie Thayer-Scott from the University College of Cape Breton, but she has not arrived as yet.
If I may, Mr. Chairman, I will proceed directly to speak to the brief. Let me say two things by way of introduction. One is that the brief is not as formidable as it appears because we have tried to make presentations in three broad subject areas, in highly summarized point form, so that you get the message. Then we follow that with graphs and charts in the hope that the message will be reinforced. If you are still sufficiently interested, we have lots of material from the individual institutions so you can see anecdotes by way of example to illustrate some of the points.
My second point, Mr. Chairman, is that if we had managed to get this to you two weeks ago, we would have been able to say that we were amazed at how fast you transmitted the messages and got some feedback from the government because some of the material that we are addressing today has, in fact, been addressed in Ottawa yesterday, not to say that there is not lots of room for movement yet. We are making some progress, we think, and there is still progress to be made.
In a few minutes, just to give you the highlights of our brief, we want to talk to you about the issues of affordability and accessibility to universities, about university research and associated research infrastructure, and about the importance of universities to their communities. There, I hope, we can show you a particularly Atlantic flavour to the issue because it really is different here from many other parts of the country.
On the issue of affordability, we are geographically distributed all over the Atlantic. Most major population areas have a campus or are close to one and we are very much present through distance EDUCATION throughout our region. In the current year, our total full-time enrolment is 65,000 and there are an additional 14,000 part-time students, so a total of 79,000 students. Those numbers are increased by about one-third in the last ten years.
We know from Statistics Canada that university graduates receive good value for their EDUCATION. They are more employable and they earn more money once they enter the workforce. As we speak, the unemployment rate in Canada is nearly 10 per cent but the unemployment rate of university graduates is just under 5 per cent.
Graduates do consider university EDUCATION to be a good investment in their futures. On the other hand, it is getting more difficult to get there. More students are having to borrow to finance their EDUCATION. The average rate of borrowing in the Atlantic now is about $12,000, and that has increased pretty quickly over the last few years and looks as if it might need to be increased more. More young graduates are having difficulty meeting loan payments.
At the universities, the proportion of our income derived from provincial grants is decreasing. Therefore, we are in the position of being obliged to increase tuition fees, so that the proportion from students is increasing. Ten years ago, taking Nova Scotia universities as an example, and to give you an average figure, nearly two-thirds of university operating income came from government. Today in Nova Scotia, on average, the figure is less than half. I think it is quite significant that these public institutions, on average, in this province are getting less than half their money from government.
Yesterday's budget addressed the financial issue for students and their families in several areas through an improved situation for RESPs, through deferment of loan interest for a longer period after graduation, and with some other measures. There are two things we are suggesting in our brief that were not addressed and which we think are worth addressing. One is some special help for disadvantaged people, for example, single parents or, for example, students from very low income families. If they were given some help up front by way of grant, we think we would be able to improve their situations throughout their lifetimes. On the other side of the coin, if we do not do that, their only choice is a crushing debt burden that they will be ill-equipped to take on.
The second issue is a partnership with the federal government in the area of employment of students. The universities themselves are a great source of part-time employment for students while they are students. I guess it used to be called "working your way through university." We do not pretend that we can create enough employment to actually pay the shot but we certainly could offer within our institutions, and do offer within our institutions, many part-time jobs that students hold. We are suggesting that this area would be a worthy candidate for federal matching, and if that were to happen, we would double the impact.
Now to research and infrastructure. There, our dollars come largely from federal grants and from national corporations. In the Atlantic region as a whole, some $200 million of activity is generated as a result of the research capacity and research function of the universities. This region, and here is a startling difference between the Atlantic region and Canada generally, is much more dependent on university research and development than the rest of the country. The statistic for Canada as a whole is about 23 per cent of R&D is done in universities; another quarter or so is done by the federal government; and half is done in the private sector.
In the Atlantic, the figure is not 23 per cent, it is 45 per cent. We are doubly dependent in the Atlantic, if you will, on the research capacity of universities as compared to the rest of the country.
I might make a brief comment on the infrastructure program that was announced yesterday. It is certainly a big step in the right direction. I think all of my colleagues would agree that it is the right thing to do at this point in time because it was badly needed, and I think being done in the right way, in the sense that the program would be competitive. However, around the Atlantic, one always get a little bit nervous about nationally competitive programs, recognizing that about 80 per cent of all the research dollars that come from the federal government go to four provinces -- Quebec, Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia -- and the other six make do with the balance of the 20 per cent. That is something to keep in mind.
A final few comments on the role of our universities in our communities: We do have a major economic impact in the Atlantic region and our expenditures are an important part of the region's economy. Something of the order of $2.7 billion economic activity was generated in Atlantic Canada in 1994-95 as a result of the existence of the universities here.
We are important employers in the region. Our direct employment totalled 17,000, and we also provide indirect employment for more than 19,000 people.
We have been through some trying times and are having to do more with less, as the saying goes, with dollars adjusted for inflation. We have collectively experienced an 18-per-cent decrease in operating grants per full-time equivalent student in the last ten years.
Of course, we make more than economic contributions to our communities. It is hard to imagine in Atlantic Canada what our communities would look like without the universities, not just because of their academic responsibilities, but to mention our art galleries, our sports facility, our libraries, and other facilities that are invaluable resources for the community as a whole.
The biggest way, however, in which we serve our communities, outside our obvious function of postating our people, is through research, and I have dwelt on that a little bit. I just draw to your attention that in section 4 of your book there are many examples of the research being done within our Atlantic universities and the relevance of that work to the communities in which they exist.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I do hope that when questions come you will allow me to take advantage of the presence of our colleagues to deal with some of your questions, particularly as it refers to their territories, as it were.
Senator Perrault: This is an excellent volume of information here. You talk, as everyone does, about the shortage of funds for our institutions. The post of fund-raiser at the university is now a key centre of activity. At least, that is the way it is out west. What about corporate generosity, and how far can that be carried?
Earlier today I spoke about an arrangement at one of the colleges in British Columbia. The Royal Bank of Canada provided all of the computers for one end of the library; CIBC all of the computers for the other end of the library. A discrete advertising notice comes on when the machines are switched on in the morning -- "This is brought to you by Canada's friendly bank," or whatever it is. Is there a danger that too close an alliance with a corporation can cause problems, or do you welcome corporate support?
Mr. May: There is some commentary in recent months about the alleged dangers of getting too close to the corporate sector. Let me say that we are very fortunate that the corporate sector continues to be generous, generally speaking, to universities. There are many of us. There are 88 universities now as members of AUCC in Canada.
Senator Perrault: Enormous.
Mr. May: However, our graduates, our alumni, are also a great source of support, financial or otherwise, and we count on that as well.
Senator Perrault: And that is staying in place?
Mr. May: Indeed. I personally do not have any evidence of any attempt by corporate Canada, if you will, to influence the agenda.
Senator Perrault: We have had the same experience out west.
Mr. May: Maybe Dr. Ozmon, who is much more experienced than I am in fund raising, would add to that.
Mr. Kenneth Ozmon, President, Saint Mary's University: That means older. Thank you. I would just like to say that I think corporate giving has improved over the years. The banks are a prime example. The banks have been very generous donors to universities and I do not think have attempted to use that to their advantage.
We rely on the companies quite considerably, as we rely on our alumni, but I should mention that in the context that the banks, corporate donors generally, are loath to give to operating. They are more and more giving to program support if you can present them with an imaginative program, but in the past, and currently, they do not want to give to operating the universities. They consider that the government's obligation and the obligation of the users.
Senator Perrault: What about the naming of buildings on the campus? Would you tolerate the McDonald's Hamburger Lounge or Pizza Hut Library? That is an extreme example, but you know what I mean.
Mr. Ozmon: We try not to go overboard with it, senator, but I think all universities are using that as a vehicle for raising funds.
Senator Perrault: As a revenue centre.
Mr. Ozmon: The boards on our hockey rinks are increasingly --
Senator Perrault: Are they, at the university?
Mr. Ozmon: Oh, yes. I have seen logos on people's uniforms. My university has not done that yet but we are hopful, if there is a big donor in the room.
Senator Perrault: Is there an upward trend in the matter of bequests and scholarships or bursaries, or has there been a relative decline?
Mr. Ozmon: I think it has been upwards. My other colleagues might wish to comment on that. We have been working harder at that. Many of us now have people whose full or half-time occupation is contacting alumni and other potential donors for bequests, but my colleague Dr. D'Entremont might wish to comment on that.
Mr. Harley D'Entremont, Rector, Université Sainte-Anne: This is the inducement or part of the federal budget that adjusted the tax regime for gifts of stocks to universities, which in a sense adds an additional 20-per-cent tax write-off and is a good thing, I think, in the sense of encouraging American-style large scale donations from the point of view, especially, of alumni, but also corporations. It seems to me that we should look more into that. It has been pushed quite a bit by the Canadian Centre of Philanthropy, and by AUCC and other organizations. Giving additional write-offs particularly for donations in terms of capital in stocks might be very useful in terms of building up the endowment funds. It encourages the donors to give. I think most universities see that as a step in the right direction and we should continue that.
Senator Perrault: Compared with other jurisdictions, the less than 50 per cent now coming from government at all levels, do you have any comparative statistics for the United States, for example, or Britain or Australia or New Zealand as to what percentage they receive from the public sector?
Mr. May: Off the top of our heads, we do not, I do not think, have any comparative statistics ready at hand.
Senator Andreychuk: You say, by virtue of yesterday's budget, that you feel that the students now have what they need to overcome the impediments that we have been hearing from coast to coast and you have singled out some disabilities and some disadvantaged groups. Is that a fair characterization, or do you believe that this is just the first step?
Also, the same goes for the research. Your comment was that you thought the 80/20 had some difficulties, but what about the whole package? Are we anywhere near what we should be doing to be competitive with other OECD countries?
Mr. May: On the first question, we have made some progress now on assisting students and their families. The RESP allows people to save for the future. The delay in having to pay the interest on the loan eases the situation for people as soon as they graduate but this does not solve the immediate problem of the accumulation of debt. That is why I suggested that there should be some special help up front for disadvantaged groups, and that is not there for the groups I talked about, although it is there, I believe, for disabled people. We should expand on that.
We should pick up some other ideas, like the ability of the university to provide part-time employment for students while they are studying. These things are yet to be dealt with.
On the other question, Canada spends something like 1.5 per cent of its gross domestic product on research. That is half the rate of the U.S; 40 per cent of the rate of Sweden. It is below every G-7 country and puts us in the category of Spain and Portugal.
Senator Andreychuk: One above Italy.
Mr. May: We have a long way to go there.
Senator Andreychuk: I know that the Atlantic region has led the way in having a special relationship with the universities with the Caribbean area. There have been single programs and more. There has been quite a bit of debate and interest across Canada in marketing EDUCATION overseas and the benefit of that, of course, is to broaden your base. Has that been in the equation in the Atlantic area? Do you see that as a growth area? Do you see any risks in that?
For example, if you go to many of our Commonwealth countries, there are branches of all universities from virtually every European country and the United States who are set up, functioning there and selling their services. Is that a preferable way? Should it be encouraged?
Mr. Ozmon: Professor Mansell, the president of the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, and I, and a number of our colleagues just returned from being part of the Team Canada mission. Part of our reason for wanting to go with the business people on that delegation was to visit universities, to explore the opportunities in those countries to attract students, and to establish linkages with other institutions so that we can promote exchanges and joint research projects.
I think the opportunities are tremendous overseas. Canada currently is being out-hustled by the U.K. and Australia, particularly in the Southeast Asia region, and the United States, of course, so we have a long way to go to catch up, but we have a good image.
Senator Andreychuk: I have come off a Foreign Affairs review where we were talking about trade in Asia. Senator Perrault was there. We were constantly being told that our people are not trained for the cross-cultural experience, the language, how to do business over there, and they found that as a weakness from our institutions and our business community. Are you addressing that?
Mr. Ozmon: I do not think it is true. I think Canadians are probably better in that respect than many other countries, certainly better than the United States and Australia. I think you have heard some of the things that are coming out of Australia from their legislators which has created a very negative effect in Southeast Asia. I think we have a very good image and I think Canada has a lot of other attractions. We promote the fact that we are a multicultural country, that we have safe streets, by and large, that we are a friendly community, and we are not as cold as you think we are. Those things all have a good impact over there.
Ms Elizabeth Epperley, President, University of Prince Edward Island: I think Dr. Ozmon is being modest there, too, because Saint Mary's is one of the leaders in English as a second language training in the Atlantic provinces, so I give him those kudos as well. I think we are rapidly trying to steal some of his business, certainly on Prince Edward Island.
It is very important to notice the new initiatives that are responding to an area we see definitely as a growth area. The Institute of Island Studies at the University of Prince Edward Island has partnerships with North Atlantic Islands. We have economic partnerships with those. We see Prince Edward Island as a broker for North America. We have just developed a post-degree program in EDUCATION that has as a stream international development so that our graduates in EDUCATION can go to other countries. We have an international agreement, HRD funding, $105,000 for this next year, for graduate placement of our Bachelor of EDUCATION graduates in foreign countries. We see this as very important. We are tapping that market. We have gone to Asia. We will be going to Asia more but certainly in Europe as well.
Senator Andreychuk: We heard from B.C., so I wanted the balance.
The Chairman: Pesident Epperly is on the line there now. Maybe she could tell us, since she lives in Atlantic Canada, not in British Columbia -- that is where Senator Perrault pushes the Japanese and the Chinese.
Senator Perrault: We are closer to Russia than we are to Ottawa.
The Chairman: Team Canada goes abroad. They go to China and they go to Japan; they go to the Philippines, Malaysia and those areas. What I think is a great potential for Atlantic Canada is Spanish, with Mexico, the South American countries, and I think we should be taking advantage of that like the Pacific does of the Asian countries.
Is there anybody teaching Spanish in the universities now?
Ms Epperley: Yes, we are. As a matter of fact, through a CIDA grant, the veterinarian college has a campus in Mexico. We have just sent off a memorandum of agreement with the University of Havana in Cuba, so we are trying to open up this trade. We do recognize that, and certainly speaking as a former American, where Spanish is primary, I think it is a very important area to develop.
Mr. D'Entremont: Moncton has just recently signed a $5-million CIDA contract with Haiti. Talking about the Caribbean base, the University of Moncton is now a major presence in one of the Caribbean islands.
Mr. May: Mr. Chairman, I cannot resist letting you know that the honorary consul in Mexico in Newfoundland is our chancellor.
Senator Losier-Cool: Let me begin by saying that I think, of all the witnesses we had in the last two days, the quality of the witnesses we had in the last days and the discussions and the group of students, the Atlantic universities have done a great job. With the people we have up on the hill and our competent staff from Atlantic Canada, I believe that as we look at the financial, the economy of the region, this is almost a success story.
Yesterday we had witnesses from the group for the handicapped. They gave us all different situations how most universities are not very well equipped to receive the handicapped. Could that fit maybe in an infrastructure program so that you could adjust the buildings? Not too many campuses are equipped with that.
Ms Alice Mansell, President, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design: As having the most inaccessible campus in Atlantic Canada, we are in the centre of the city and yet many students cannot get around in our building. Even those of us who are not visually impaired find ourselves getting lost. I think that is absolutely a concern, that we are all living and working in aged buildings which are really losing their capacity for us to do things efficiently, effectively and safely. There are many students that we could serve so much better and there is, certainly just from my perspective, a great need for us to move to the next stage.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Is there not legislation in New Brunswick that obliges all public institutions to be fitted for the handicapped?
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: That is not what we heard in the course of yesterday's hearings. What kind of suggestion or recommendation do you think we should make so that universities in Atlantic Canada become more accessible to these individuals?
Senator Lavoie-Roux: Is there or is there not a law in place?
Senator Losier-Cool: Yes, there is, in New Brunswick.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: And the law is disregarded
[English]
However, in New Brunswick, is there not such legislation?
Mr. May: I believe that the response to this is that, in general, this is an area that has received a lot of attention. It predates my presence at Memorial University in Newfoundland, but when I arrived, this was all long done. Every building is accessible with ramps, elevators.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: In Newfoundland.
Mr. May: Yes, by law.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That is why I was asking about New Brunswick.
Mr. May: I think there are special circumstances, and this building is certainly a special circumstance, where you could have a difficulty. The answer to the question may lie in programs like the existing infrastructure program; not the new research infrastructure program, but the existing one. That could provide public works, as it were, to improve handicapped accessibility. I do believe that the problem is localized. I do not think it is general.
Senator Forest: Would buildings like these be heritage buildings that cannot be upgraded?
Ms Mansell: They are very charming -- preservation of the past and prevention of the future. We do make every effort, and there are certainly aspects of the college that we make sure people can get to but, obviously, it is handicapped. It is unique and it is picturesque, but it needs work.
Mr. Ozmon: I will add a word on behalf of students with disabilities, because I think it is important to recognize that physical accessibility is only part of the problem. There is a very small representation of students with disabilities among our population presently. The reason is that we are not capable financially of offering the kinds of services that the students need.
Senator Perrault: Reading machines and all that kind of thing?
Mr. Ozmon: Reading machines, interpreting services, Braille translators, the sheer time it takes to invigulate exams. Some of these students take five and six hours to take an exam. They need people to watch them while they are taking the exams. It is very labour-intensive.We have a relatively large population of people with disabilities at Saint Mary's. Most of our students take a long time to finish. You are talking about students who enter who maybe can only take one or two courses a year. They take ten years or more to finish. So you are carrying these students on the books and trying to add others behind them. There is a tremendous demand which we cannot meet. That is what has to be attended to, also.
Senator Perrault: With the new technology, it is possible to dictate a letter in a machine and it automatically types it, but there is still editing and all that to be done. I guess that is where the cost is.
I did not know, and I confess my ignorance, that you have an association with the West Indies as well. What kind of a relationship is that and how does it work? Do you exchange students?
Mr. May: The University of the West Indies, with three campuses, has always been a member of this organization. Occasionally, we get somebody coming to one of our meetings. We have never dared to have one of our meetings in the West Indies, especially not in January, although we have often been tempted. Maybe one of my colleagues from Nova Scotia could speak to exchanges, because to the extent they exist, they must exist in Nova Scotia, not so much in Newfoundland. In truth, the relationship is not a strong one.
Senator Perrault: You do not have visiting professors going down to the University of West Indies and lecturing there?
Ms Mansell: Actually, I hate to say this but probably we have the most exchanges in terms of students in the West Indies, Mexico, Cuba, where we have students going down there and also professors.
We have a couple of programs where some of our faculty, in the design program particularly, have been doing intensive courses at the graduate level in some of those places for short periods. Obviously, we can do a bit more. Again, resource development has been difficult but there is a great deal of interest and we are, particularly in that region, very interested in the southern central part of America to do more.
As you probably know, over the last 20 years, we send a student, we get a student. We also send a faculty member and have people visit here, too, so that we really benefit from their experience, and so we do not end up insisting they adopt our ways.
Senator Perrault: Obviously, you have had some excellent results in your department. This has been a real discovery for me, Mr. Chairman. It has been wonderful to have Atlantic province people in British Columbia, and I am glad to be down here. We have a great country. You learn a lot about it on some of these tours.
The Chairman :It must be ten years ago since I went to university but, anyway, they had a lot of medical students come back. There were lawyers who came up from the Caribbean. There is nobody here from Dalhousie to answer that question but UNB might.
Mr. May: There is no one here from UNB.
The Chairman: What about that medical school in Newfoundland? I understand you have one here.
Mr. May: Indeed, we do. We have students from the United States, from Asia, from Singapore. I am not aware that we have any from the Caribbean and I do not know where Caribbean medical students now go.
The answer comes from Anne-Marie MacKinnon who, incidentally, I should have introduced as the Executive Director of Atlantic Association of Universities. She operates the office in Halifax and pulls the strings, whenever they need to be pulled.
There is a medical school associated with the Caribbean, and I should have known that because the new lieutenant-governor of Newfoundland, Dr. House, is one of the Atlantic pioneers in telemedicine, and there have been links with the West Indies and Memorial in that regard.
Senator Perrault: In the operating theatre -- is that that new technique that assists doctors to operate?
Mr. May: I hope not.
Senator Perrault: You do not do the operation by satellite. That is carrying it to extremes, is it not? They have monitors that tell them.
Mr. May: I am only being partly facetious, because the last time I talked to him, I said, at least we will never see the day when a patient sits in front of a computer and the computer does the diagnosis, and he said that is exactly where we are heading. However, no, this is more like long distance diagnosis and comparison of charts and EKGs and X-rays.
Senator Perrault: You can even send X-rays. It is a tremendous thing for medicine.
The Chairman: Which university here looks after the Caribbean medical school?
Mr. May: Oh, it was Memorial. I mentioned an association with telemedicine at the Memorial Medical School but there is a medical school at the University of the West Indies.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I would like to ask the director of the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, who is here and has been so gracious and hospitable, what is your situation financially, in terms of carrying on what you are doing and in terms of future development? I have been quite impressed by the work that your students do.
Ms Mansell: I think that we have accomplished quite a lot in the last couple of years in terms of identifying our real strengths and a vision of what we can do in the future. We are very encouraged by the increased interest in the disciplines and research, the EDUCATION that we provide and the research that we provide. I think that our relationship to the health of the region is a little clearer. I feel fairly optimistic. We are in a rather serious mood right now because we do have severe concerns about budgetary situations, but I think we can make a strong case about our opportunities. With a little bit more involvement from both public and private sector partners, which we are pursuing, I think that we can be a bigger, better and more effective voice for the very essential art and design programs and research in the country.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You have not suffered like some other colleges from the transfer payment policy? This has not affected you. We know, in some other places, it has, and in some other colleges.
Ms Mansell: We have lost about 30 per cent of our funding. We are very, very short. The thing that has kept this place afloat is the fact that -- and I know this sounds overblown but I have worked in four provinces now, from the west to the east. What I have found here is the devotion of the faculty and students to their studies is bar none, so it has been a lot of that energy. It has been very difficult. I think we are close to the edge of human capacity. However, I do think that there is a kind of sense of its importance, increased interest, increased profile, and increased excitement which technology has allowed us to develop. It has been very, very difficult. We have done our best to make it look like it has been easy, but it has not.
Senator Perrault: It is an easy target, the College of Arts.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: As it has been common language in the last few days, do you see the light at the end of the tunnel?
Ms Mansell: Yes, and I do not think it is the light on the train coming toward us. It seems to me there is open track there.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You are in the red caboose.
Ms Mansell: No, we are actually on the cow catcher. I think we are in for a difficult time, this next year particularly. For all of my colleagues, I think we have gotten rid of all muscle and fat, and now we figure there is probably one more organ we can let go. However, I do believe that we will survive. We must.
I think your presence here gives us some encouragement that the role of EDUCATION, the centrality of EDUCATION for the future of our country, is absolutely essential. It is also very important for the rest of the world.
One of the things that Dr. Ozmon and I did when we went to Asia was the fact that we could work together, that we offer something here that is going to benefit their students and our students, as well as benefit trade. In the Department of Foreign Affairs that culture is the third pillar of economic progress in that indication, and EDUCATION and culture are very closely tied. I think that we are on the up side. We need to push forward. We must get more support for our students and our programs. The thing that I like about living and working here is that we can and do work together.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I think it is interesting that you have three or four sites, including one in Sainte-Anne. Do you not have a branch in University Sainte-Anne?
Ms Mansell: No. We have just been talking about offering some courses together.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: It seemed to me there was more than just this campus. Is there another campus?
Ms Mansell: There are three other art colleges in Canada which we work together with.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: No, but not in Nova Scotia?
Ms Mansell: Not in Nova Scotia, but we have relationships; our programs are all across Nova Scotia. With Saint Mary's, we have combined programs. We have students at King's College, and so on.
Mr. Colin Starnes, President, University of King's College: I suspect -- and you will know the truth of this as you go across the country -- it can seem very bizarre that a little province of less than 1 million people has 11 universities, or a region of so many million people has 19. I think that this is to be regarded as a kind of a remarkable treasure that belongs in a kind of a unique sense to this part of the country. It is historical accident. There is certainly no genius, unless you regard it as some kind of divine intervention.
What has developed here is clearly very attractive to students across the country, and I finally realized what it is by simply travelling myself. If what you want is a small liberal arts EDUCATION in a community that still hangs together as a community, really, the Atlantic region is the kind of motherlode of that for this country; perhaps it is accidental, however it is still there. That sense which goes from teeny-weenie places like College Sainte-Anne and University of King's College, with 640, 748 students, 800 students, to Dalhousie or even a Memorial, put in the context of Newfoundland, as you can see in this kind of quote here, how that university is bound into the sinews of that province, that relationship that there are living communities of learning that are very specialized.
The art college has a culture that is not the culture of the Technical University of Nova Scotia, which is appropriate to this and not to that. That characteristic of what you find in these Atlantic region universities is, I think, something that your committee should be very careful in estimating what value that is because, certainly, there is a tendency not only in this city, in this province, in this region, but also across the world, to mush stuff together.
When you look at the kind of cost-efficiency question, I think that this region holds its own in comparison to any region in Canada, which is amazing given that all the supposed bad factors are present. There are too many, they are too small, they are too this, they are too that. These places are able to send people, which any one of these universities can attest to, all over the world. Students can go from, and do, all over the globe to graduate schools or whatever.
That very delicate balance of small place but research centres where we are doing -- as happens in this city in Dalhousie and TUNS, in relation to the rest of us, that is a very unique thing. I would not have your willingness to hear us go by without pointing out what is, in a certain sense, so obvious that we do not even mention it, but now I think it should be mentioned and so I have.
The Chairman: I thank you for that great recitation about the area, what a beautiful place it is to live, because I come from this part of the country. While I am here and before I let you go I was going to ask my good friend from Prince Edward Island, Mrs. Epperley, to tell us about that Atlantic Veterinary College which she has in her university, where those students basically come from.
Ms Epperly: They come from the Atlantic provinces, basically.
The Chairman: All of them?
Ms Epperly: No, not all of them. There are an assigned number of seats per province in the Atlantic region. Thank you for mentioning that, since the agreement is up for renegotiation now with the premiers of the other provinces. I do appreciate that. This was not a set-up.
They come from the Atlantic region primarily, and there are a designated numbers of seats that are for Canadians and then there are a designated number of seats, and these are very carefully regulated, for international students. If you want to know where those international students are from, they are from the United States, because they are the ones willing to pay $30,000 U.S. for a seat at the Atlantic Veterinary College.
The Chairman: I thank Dr. Mansell for her excellent presentation concerning culture. She said that she thought there was a light at the end of the railroad but did not know which way the track was going. In Newfoundland, I do not think there is even a track.
Senator Perrault: You must have a one-track mind.
The Chairman: We do not even have a track to go to, to have a one-track mind.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: You have a bridge, though.
The Chairman: No, that new bridge is for Canada to come over to see us.
Senator Perrault: That island will sink under the weight.
Senator DeWare: I want your opinion on how you feel about people trying to get in here on their visa, what the hold-ups are, and if we are losing students because of that. My second question is: Do you think we should have a minister of state for EDUCATION in Canada?
Mr. May: I am sure we all have opinions on both those questions. We welcome visa students. In my own case, at Memorial, 97 per cent of our student body is from Newfoundland, and we would welcome some company.
Senator DeWare: I understand that there is a problem around the length of time it takes for those students to get a visa.
Mr. May: I think they are bureaucratic problems. They are not always on the Canadian side; they are sometimes on the side of the other country. Yes, there are problems, and to the extent that they can be fixed, yes.
Should Canada have a minister of state for EDUCATION? What could be more important to bind a nation than the EDUCATION of its young people? The answer is yes -- personal opinion. It is a very controversial issue in some provinces.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: I think that what you say is right, but the educators and the universities and all our institutions should be able to do it among themselves without getting a minister of state for EDUCATION.
Mr. May: Mr. Chairman, may I just introduce Bernie MacDonald, who I did introduce but he was not here when I introduced him. He is Vice-principal of Administration of the Nova Scotia Agricultural College. He is now here. I wanted you to know that.
The Chairman: That is in Truro, is it not?
Mr. Bernie MacDonald, Vice-principal of Administration, Nova Scotia Agricultural College: Yes.
Senator Perrault: You are on the Internet, are you not?
Mr. MacDonald: Yes.
Senator Perrault: Well, that is interesting. I think it is valuable. I had a gentleman phone me. His daughter was interested in veterinary medicine, and on the Internet we found out the information about it. I did a printout for her and I hope she is well on her way at the college.
However, what is being done on the internet? Are we getting the good news about these wonderful institutions on the Internet out so that people can access the calendar and find out what specialities are offered in the various classes? It is one way to encourage people to come to Canada, come to the Atlantic provinces, surely, is it not?
Mr. May: Everybody is on the World Wide Web. At my university, now you can apply to university and be accepted on the World Wide Web.
Senator Perrault: You are keeping up with progress. They say there are 55 million people now watching the World Wide Web. It may disappear in an electronic black hole one of these days from overload.
Ms Epperly: I knew that faculty members were interested in upgrading their skills and in using information technology, and I did not know how much. Even I underestimated that, and I am an enthusiast for it.
We sent out a call on campus and said would anybody like to volunteer. We had so many people volunteer to tell what they are already doing, with very little resources, creating CD ROMS, individualized study programs and so on, that we could not even schedule them all in this semester. We had to double them up to be able to even do that.
Senator Perrault: They are right with it.
Ms Epperly: People are really excited about this. This is where infrastructure money makes such a big difference, and when one talks about the cooperation and that Colin Starnes and Alice Mansell have done so marvellously, I think, about the Atlantic region, this is what binds us together and is going to make us marketable as an entire region for the rest of the country and for the rest of the world. This broadband with connection that we are doing in high speed networking, that is where it is, and it is so exciting.
Senator Perrault: They are all linked.
Ms Epperly: We are all linked and we are right there. I will say something good about Prince Edward Island, too. We have a knowledge economy partnership which is unique to Canada, with the federal and provincial government banding together to eliminate duplication and to get good resources. What we have done is we have put the K to 12 -- except on Prince Edward Island it is 1 to 12 -- 1 to 12 with the university and with the colleges, so everybody is together on the network.
Senator Perrault: That is absolutely terrific. I suppose many of these things on the Internet are not accessible to the general public.
Ms Epperly: Yes. As a matter of fact, yes.
Senator Perrault: I have got to get your Internet address.
Mr. May: Mr. Chairman, anything you want to know about the Atlantic universities, just dial up amac@fox.nstn.ca.
Senator Perrault: Just give me that again, would you, please?
Mr. May: I will give you the card.
Senator Perrault: Like a hundred million others, I am on the E-net.
The Chairman: We want to thank you, Dr. May, and your confreres for coming before us and giving us your viewpoints.
Mr. May: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have from the Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION Kathleen Thompson, Director of Student Assistance, Marilyn Gaudet, Acting President of Nova Scotia CHE, and Peter Rans, Senior Policy Advisor NSCHE, which is the Nova Scotia Council of Higher EDUCATION. We turn the meeting over to you.
Ms Marilyn Gaudet, Acting President of the Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION: First of all, I would like to welcome you all to Nova Scotia. I hope you have had a good couple of days in Halifax. I was just thinking, as I was sitting in the background there, that that it is kind of a tough act to follow because there are so many of our university presidents in attendance telling you about the many strengths of our universities. It is probably a little anti-climatic to hear from me. In any case, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to present some perspectives from the Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION on Post-Secondary education issues.
While I am acting president of the NSCHE, I am also Deputy Minister of EDUCATION for the Province of Nova Scotia, but my remarks today will concentrate primarily on the university sector, as my colleagues from the Association of Atlantic Universities have already made a presentation to you. The issues being considered by the Senate subcommittee are extremely important, not only to Nova Scotia, but also to Canada as a whole. We all realize that EDUCATION and training are vital to the human resource development and economic development of Nova Scotia and Canada. Our universities play a key role in ensuring that we are able to compete internationally in a global, knowledge-based economy.
In Nova Scotia, as you have heard just before our presentation, we are fortunate to have at the present time 13 degree-granting institutions in the province. We realize the importance of these institutions to our economy and to the future well-being of the province and its citizens.
We have a number of initiatives under way in an attempt to strengthen the higher EDUCATION system in Nova Scotia. We are encouraging the universities to work together to minimize administrative costs and to ensure funding for programs at their institutions. We are restructuring some of the institutions to create Centres of Excellence, particularly in computing science and information technology. As you have heard, we are encouraging and participating with the universities in the international marketing of the post-secondary institutions, recognizing our universities and community college as resources that can attract much needed investment and capital to our province. We are, however, like all governments in the country, struggling to find the resources necessary to meet all the challenges and changes.
Today I would like to discuss and emphasize three critical roles of the federal government in Post-Secondary education.
First of all, I would like to talk about the Canada Health and Social Transfer. I began by mentioning that we have 13 degree-granting institutions. We have one of the highest per capita expenditures on university EDUCATION in the country, but one of the lowest per student expenditures. This situation results because we postate more students from out of province proportionate to our population than any other province in Canada. We are proud of this fact and it speaks to the quality of our universities and our strong commitment to EDUCATION in the country.
However, when the federal government makes decisions to cut back on the cash transfers to provinces through the Canada Health and Social Transfer, Nova Scotia is particularly disadvantaged relative to other provinces. This compromises our ability to play the EDUCATIONal role we cherish. While we have been able to protect our universities from the full effects of the federal cut-backs through the CHST, we have, nonetheless, been forced to rposte provincial funding to the universities over the last few years. This rposttion has led universities to compensate by raising tuition fees.
While we are extremely proud of our institutions, we are concerned that they must charge amongst the highest tuition fees in the country. The institutions' decision, however, is understandable unless we can direct more funding to them. For this reason, we encourage the federal government to recognize the strategic importance of Post-Secondary education in the country and direct more funding through the CHST to the provinces as its fiscal situation improves.
The second point I would like to discuss is student assistance. As a consequence of the increases in tuitions and other costs for students, such as accommodation, food and books, student debt loads are rising to unacceptably high levels. Present estimates suggest that many students will be graduating with debt loads in the range of $24,000. Some who have taken more than one degree will have even higher levels of debt. We are concerned that this will deter academically qualified students from starting or finishing degrees.
There is no one single solution to this problem, but the federal government can do a number of things to help address this situation.
First of all, the federal and provincial governments, we feel, should work towards a harmonized student loan system between both levels of government, such that individual students take out only one loan with both levels of government.
At present, students struggle with different federal and provincial loan systems. They must deal with different eligibility criteria, repayment mechanisms and administrative structures. A harmonized system would be far less complicated for the student.
Second, even with the harmonization of loans, students now and in the future are facing debt loads which will deter them from finishing their degrees. We in Nova Scotia have a loan remission program whereby students are forgiven a proportion of their debt if they are academically successful. This remission can be up to $5,210 out of a total loan amount of $16,380 for a 52-week program. We believe that the federal government should add to this measure with their own contribution to debt rposttion. Whether it is called a "loan remission", a "deferred grant", or some other term, it should be in addition to what we do, not in competition with it, so that students' overall debt loads are rposted.
I must add, though, that we are encouraged by the measures announced in yesterday's budget. It means that students will have an additional 12 months before they must begin repaying their federal student loan.
Third, the federal government has another source of assisting learners and their families with the rising EDUCATION costs, and these are the various tax measures and incentives that are in place. Various schemes, including RESPs, non-refundable tax credits, and tax dposttible student loans have all been advanced as suitable fiscal instruments. Once again, we were pleased to see the federal government undertake enhancements to the tax incentives for Post-Secondary education in yesterday's budget.
Finally, the next area I would like to address is research. One of the primary ways in which the federal government has demonstrated its commitment to maintaining important university activities is through the funding of research. As I am sure many university colleagues have told you, in provinces like Nova Scotia, with limited resources, the continued federal support of research is vital to the maintenance of an acceptable level of research in our institutions.
In Nova Scotia, we have become acutely aware of the importance of a provincial research policy and we are taking steps to develop a coordinated and focused policy for government, universities and the private sector. Nevertheless, federal support of national funding councils has been declining in real terms. In addition, much of the research conducted by our universities is on behalf of other federal departments like Health, Agricultural, Fisheries and Environment, which have been withdrawing much of their activities from Nova Scotia. The existence of federal research establishments in the province has supplemented our university system and provided synergies which would have been impossible because we do not have a large private sector interest and capacity in research.
Consequently, Atlantic universities and, particularly, Nova Scotia universities are doubly hit by the rposttion in the CHST transfers and federal agency withdrawal from support of research in the region.
If the federal government must downsize its reserve of capacities and delivery in Atlantic Canada, as a government, we would, at least, like to have some influence as to where the adjustments are made. Instead, decisions appear to be made with little or no consultation with the provinces. We would like to have an opportunity to explore what is particularly strategic to our economic interests in key areas of research and to consult with our universities on which federal research initiatives are of most value to them.
These are not the only ways in which federal funding has supported Nova Scotian universities' activities in research. Through the Social Sciences Humanities Research Council, there were special grants to aid small universities, support special collections and fund post-graduate scholarships.
The federal government also made awards to support women faculty in particular disciplines. Many of these awards have been discontinued or substantially rposted. Yet, because of our university make-up, of mainly small, unique institutions, these awards provided vital support for researchers just beginning their careers, and their disappearance has disproportionately hurt our small institutions.
They have also had additional concerns with respect to CIDA and to Industry Canada.
The examples of federal cut-backs in research are legion, yet we are being told that we are increasingly moving into a knowledge-based economy. I am sure that my university colleagues have, and can continue to, provide you with multiple examples of the connection between federal support for research and the success they have achieved.
Our universities can, and do, play a vital research role provincially, nationally and internationally. We expect the amalgamation of Dalhousie University and the Technical University of Nova Scotia to provide an even greater critical mass than was previously possible.
We expect the federal government to match its policies with its actions and to assist us in obtaining value from the huge investment we have all made in our institutions.
We were pleased to see the announcement of the Canada Foundation for innovation in yesterday's federal budget. Although we do not have many details, its focus on research infrastructure in post-secondary institutions and associated research hospitals is extremely positive. It will assist institutions in meeting the cost of research in terms of laboratory equipment, computers, advanced and expensive machinery necessary for first-class research. Universities in the Atlantic region are particularly hard pressed in maintaining the research infrastructure in the absence of sufficient partnerships with the private sector, since much of our private sector is small- to medium- sized, with little research capacity of its own. We hope that this initiative will benefit Nova Scotia academically and economically, and the federal government will be playing an important role.
I have deliberately tried to summarize our provincial concerns while building on submissions that I know you have already heard, and emphasize those areas where we feel the federal government has a vital role to play.
The Chairman: From your comments, I did not know whether you were from the government, whether you are from the Department of EDUCATION, whether you are representing just the Nova Scotia government. Who does Nova Scotia Council of Higher EDUCATION represent? Are you a government wing? Are you an arm of government? Are you a branch of government? Are you separate from government?
Ms Gaudet: The Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION is a council of, primarily, private sector representatives and members from the universities who serve as an advisory body to the Minister of EDUCATION and Culture on university affairs. The council itself is a composition of a number of people who work with the universities and with the minister on the university affairs.
The position I am occupying at the present time is Deputy Minister of EDUCATION and Culture, which is clearly the Department of EDUCATION and Culture in the province, but I am also serving in an acting capacity, until we find a full-time person, to fill the previous president's position. I am representing this lay council, this lay advisory body to the Minister, but I am also representing the views of the Department of EDUCATION and Culture as well.
The Chairman: This council is very closely connected then with government, correct? It is an arm of government really, is it not?
Ms Gaudet: It is an advisory body to government.
The Chairman: In your comments as acting president of this association, you kept saying that the government is doing this and we are doing this. I was under the impression that you were talking as the deputy minister for a while.
Ms Gaudet: Yes, I do that every day.
Senator Perrault: You do well in both roles.
Senator Andreychuk: You need not have apologized for your brief after the presidents, because I think you have given us some overviews which are very valuable.
You were talking about the federal cut-backs. Obviously, there was a deficit position here at some point. I have not followed it that closely, but have there been corresponding cuts in provincial-sourced fundings, other than federal? Is it also true that there is a reverberating effect into research because, as you downsize your departments provincially, they have less capability of hiring? I am thinking more into social services, where I know so much research takes place at the provincial level, because that is also a provincial responsibility, there were all kinds of contracts and research flowing from sociology, psychology departments, et cetera. Therefore it is a double-whammy for universities. Would that be the case here?
Ms Gaudet: It has been difficult times in both the provincial financial situation and the federal financial situation. I guess the best way to illustrate it is that, yes, prior to the federal rposttions specifically associated with the Canada Health and Social Transfer, the government had put out a fiscal plan and that plan was predicated on rposttions in all areas of government activity, including health EDUCATION.
With the Canada Health and Social Transfer, there were rposttions being imposed on the province. That led to another series of rposttions for universities, but I think it is important to note that we did not pass on to the universities, as a government now, the full rposttions that were incurred as a result of the Canada Health and Social Transfer related to post-secondary. We shielded them, to a large extent, from those dollar-for-dollar cut-backs.
Mr. Peter Rans, Senior Policy Advisor, Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION: If I may give you some context, the university system in Nova Scotia at its height was funded to the tune of about $212 million in operating grants. This year's funding is at the level of about $184 million, so that the universities have, over a period of about four or five years, taken a substantial cut in base funding, for many of the reasons that Marilyn has outlined. That is the kind of scale of the cut-back that the universities have taken over the last four or five years.
Senator Andreychuk: There were provincial cut-backs. I am not saying they are right or wrong; in fact, they are probably the same justifications as the federal government has used, the overall budget situation.
Ms Gaudet: Yes, there were.
Senator Andreychuk: You have made a particular point about smaller universities. I happen to live in a province that sees increasing attention being paid to larger institutions. Obviously, they have the capacity to be heard in Ottawa better. You are pleading for understanding how those cuts hurt even more in a smaller institution. Regarding yesterday's budget announcements, do you anticipate there will be some discussion and revisiting as to how this should be fairly and proportionately given to the university sectors or post-secondary sectors across Canada?
Have any discussions taken place or will they take place?
Ms Gaudet: I presume you are referring to the research infrastructure fund.
Senator Andreychuk: Yes.
Ms Gaudet: No discussions have taken place between ourselves and the federal government on this at all. I guess I can only hope that there will be meaningful discussions on how those funds get allocated. From the little bit I have read just from the briefs that I saw on budget night, I am encouraged and hope that we will have an opportunity to make a strong case to get a substantial amount of that funding in Nova Scotia.
Senator DeWare: Just on that point, it says in the budget that the provinces will participate. It reads this way: Through partnerships with public research institutions, the business community, the voluntary section, individuals, and to the extent they wish to participate, provincial governments.
Senator Andreychuk: That is what my question is. I wanted to know if there has been any discussion.
Ms Gaudet: You have obviously seen even more than I have. I have only a much briefer summary.
The Chairman: When you say you have not been consulted, are you talking now as Deputy Minister, Minister of EDUCATION, or part of the government, or are you talking as a member of the Nova Scotia Council of Higher EDUCATION?
Ms Gaudet: Peter Rans has been a long time member of the staff of the Council of Higher EDUCATION. I am going to try to speak from both perspectives. I think there has been very little, if any at all, consultation on the cuts in the research area.
I think we are talking about a number of the activities that go on in federal departments in the region, some of our research centres, but to my understanding there has been very little, if any, dialogue at all. Those decisions have been made in the federal context and really not with a lot of consultation about what would be important to maintain here and what would be strategic. I guess we all understand there have to be cuts but I think we feel a lot more could have been done to make those cuts on a consultative basis.
I will let Peter Rans comment, since I have only been there a few months.
The Chairman: You are here, three of you. How many people does the Council of Higher EDUCATION of Nova Scotia represent? Is it just the three of you, or how many people are on this council that you are actually here speaking on behalf of?
Ms Gaudet: On the council itself, there are about 13 or 14 members, and a small staff.
The Chairman: And a small staff with that.
Senator Perrault: Mr. Chairman, we have heard several times during the course of our hearings that costs in the Atlantic provinces, the maritime provinces, are very high, the highest in Canada. Can you suggest a reason for that? Why should costs be so much higher here? My province of British Columbia, the average bungalow is selling around $400,000. We really do have some very high costs out there. I wonder what contributes to the high cost nature of your economy.
Ms Gaudet: Are you talking about the high tuition costs?
Senator Perrault: Is it tuition costs that are higher? Obviously, you need more revenue, so what causes this imbalance?
Ms Gaudet: More out-of-province students. We have the highest per capita expenditure so, as a province, we spend the highest in the country on university EDUCATION; but on a per-student basis, it is among the lowest in the country. When you add that on top of our ability to provide the same level of grants that other provinces can provide their institutions, the institutions have no other choice but to raise the shortfall in tuitions.
Senator Perrault: I think the chairman was quoted in the newspaper the other day, saying that we are coming to the stage where sons and daughters of rich people have a much better chance of getting an EDUCATION than daughters and sons of the poor. Is that not right, Mr. Chairman? You were well quoted.
The Chairman: I said that, if we did not do something about the crisis in the Post-Secondary education, it will only be a rich man's son or a rich man's daughter that will be able to go to university.
Senator Perrault: Do you agree with that? That is a frightening prospect. It runs contrary to all the liberal instincts, small "L" liberal instincts of the Canadian people, that only those with wealth should have the opportunity to access our higher EDUCATION. That really is a problem. What do you think?
Mr. Rans: If I can comment on that, senator, that is, I think, why Ms Gaudet stressed the issue of student debt loads. In this part of the country, in particular, with the highest tuition fees that we have, we are particularly concerned about the rising student debt loads. If you have rising student debt loads and you come from a family of modest economic means, then clearly you will not have the capacity to continue in EDUCATION.
Senator Perrault: The philosophy surely should be that if a young person is desirous of improving himself through EDUCATION, that dollars should not be the impediment that causes them to drop out.
Mr. Rans: Exactly. That is why we have advocated that the federal government join with the provinces in harmonizing the student assistance programs and many of the other measures that we tried to advocate today to you.
Senator Perrault: Another recurrent theme is the allegation that our standards are in serious danger, that they have been slipping. Student bodies particularly have been saying this. They have complained about teachers who are just unable to handle the work load. With classes of 300 young people, they cannot give the individual attention to the student, as was the case a few years ago. Is that happening here, do you think?
Mr. Rans: Again, senator, I think it is certainly correct to say that average class sizes at most of our institutions have shot up far beyond those that would have been considered reasonable several years ago. That is a consequence of the funding levels that those institutions have.
Senator Perrault: Who does the marking of term papers and the rest? Obviously, it is not possible for the senior professor to do all of it.
Mr. Rans: It depends. In some institutions, obviously, they have been forced to hire more part-time faculty, as opposed to full-time faculty, to deal with some of those economic realities you are discussing.
Senator Perrault: You have raised the matter of research. It has been pointed out to us, and some figures have been presented to us, that we have been slipping in relation to other OECD countries, and you reinforced that idea. You have quite a few students from out of province, you were saying.
Ms Gaudet: Yes, overall.
Senator Perrault: You have more per capital than any other province in Canada?
Ms Gaudet: I believe so.
Senator Perrault: Is there a special reason for that? What kind of courses do those people take when they get here?
Ms Gaudet: I think there are a number of reasons. First of all, I think the number of universities that we have and the wide range of programming that they offer, which the presidents spoke to you about earlier, sort of said it all. It is a good place to come for a good, wide range of EDUCATIONal choices, so I think that is one of our big selling points.
Senator Perrault: It is a good place to come. You were saying that one of the reasons for the high cost of tuition in your province is that you have so many out-of-town students. What about jacking up the rates to them, and charging them more to come here and study? Would that not improve your situation domestically?
Ms Gaudet: That might improve the financial situation but that is not something that we would consider doing.
Senator Perrault: You do not have an active campaign to increase tuition to out-of-town students?
Ms Gaudet: No.
Senator Perrault: It certainly is a potential source of revenue though, is it not?
Mr. Rans: It is undoubtedly a potential source of revenue, but I think it is currently the position of this province that that would go against the very issues of mobility on which this country is founded. We would be very concerned to have to be pushed into that situation.
Senator Forest: As a former chancellor of a university, I understand the problems you are going through, although I was in better financial times. I want to direct my question to Kathleen Thompson, Director of Student Assistance, about student assistance.
In your brief you mentioned the harmonization of the loan programs. In our hearings in Ottawa, we heard from people from the federal and provincial governments, mostly federal, I think, with respect to those. They did outline some areas in which they were trying to -- I do not think it was harmonizing but they were trying to make it more like one-stop shopping, because there seemed to be a lot of confusion with respect to the students.
Was that what you had in mind, or just one loan?
Ms Kathleen Thompson, Director of Student Assistance: What Ms Gaudet was referring to was a program where the students would see one loan. Behind the scenes, however, it would be financed by both levels of government, so there would be agreement between the governments as to the share of the cost of the program, but the students, when they actually receive the loan, would go to the bank and they would have one debt, rather than the current situation where they have a provincial student loan debt and a federal student loan debt.
Senator Forest: That seems to make a lot of sense. You mentioned certain tax measures in the brief. Some of those have been addressed in the present budget that was released yesterday, perhaps not as much assistance as we would like but they were addressed. Then there was the delaying the loan repayment.
Have you any other things that you really feel that would be helpful to students with respect to their tuition fees and their level of debt?
Ms Thompson: One of the things that we have discussed, all the provincial directors, many times, is that what we see is that parents do not prepare for the financing of their children's EDUCATION, so we really need to encourage parents at a stage where their children are much younger to start to save towards the cost of the EDUCATION. The tax exemptions certainly have gone a long way to assist with that.
Senator Forest: There is something in the budget, too, about an RESP, I think, so perhaps that would help.
Ms Thompson: Yes. Those are things that we have discussed many times in federal-provincial meetings.
Senator Forest: Well, you were heard, I guess. I would like to say that I commend you for not considering raising your tuition fees to out-of-province students because that does go against mobility. I do know that the smaller institutions certainly get a double-whammy because their tuition costs and the institutions themselves, when you are serving smaller classes, et cetera -- on a per student basis, it is bound to be more expensive.
Senator Perrault: Economy of scale.
Senator Forest: Yes. Small is beautiful but sometimes it is expensive.
Ms Thompson: The loan remission program is another area where the federal government needs to assist the provinces in rposting students' debt. When we implemented the student loan program, when we changed from a bursary program to a loan program, we recognized that there would be a debt load problem in the future for the students and we implemented, as part of the Nova Scotia Student Loan Program, a loan remission program whereby the province repays a portion of the student's debt. The federal government has been talking about participating in that program but, to date, nothing has been done.
Senator Forest: That would be another area.
Ms Thompson: That is definitely an area.
Senator Perrault: Earlier today I asked one of the witnesses whether they thought it might be a way for a student to repay a loan by undertaking some socially beneficial work, and it was interpreted at that time as meaning on the campus. No, I am thinking of a national project that would have young people, for example, who have a degree in social work, go into a disadvantaged neighbourhood, apply their skills, and get credits against their student loan, in addition to some money. Is there an opportunity here to get young people, recent graduates, actively involved in community work and then give them dollar credits towards that loan?
It seems to me that some would welcome this. I have talked to more young people driving cab. There is nothing wrong with driving a cab but they have degrees and they simply cannot find a way to apply their skills. I wonder what your reaction would be to that.
Ms Thompson: In Nova Scotia, we have a program on a very small scale and it is not at the graduate level. During the summers, there is a program through where students go out and create their own jobs at non-profit organizations and they work there all through the summer.
Senator Perrault: How is it working?
Ms Thompson: It is working very well. A portion of their salary is capped and is paid directly to the university on their tuition and they get a small amount in order to have spending money for the summer.
Senator Perrault: That is how it would apply nationally.
Ms Thompson: You could carry that over into the graduate level.
Senator Perrault: That is what I mean.
Ms Thompson: Yes. It is something that has been discussed.
Senator Perrault: There is a lot of young morale being destroyed out there. It has the seeds of social revolt if we do not do something about this.
The Chairman: Let me ask you, Ms Thompson, are you with the government of Nova Scotia as well? You seem to be talking on behalf of the government, "We are doing this and we are doing that."
Ms Thompson: I am the Director of the Student Assistance Office, which is a division of the Department of EDUCATION and Culture. I am not actually with the council.
Senator Perrault: Well, you have got good ideas.
The Chairman: Good to know where you are speaking from when you say, "We did this and we did that."
Senator Lavoie-Roux: On the first page you say, and we have heard this from the universities, too, that you are encouraging them to work together to minimize administrative costs and ensure funding for programs at their institutions. Have you fully explored this? Is there still some ground to cover to get them in this administration rationalization?
Ms Gaudet: No, I think they are actually doing it. At least, in the metro universities, almost a year ago, they announced the formation of a consortium where they were going to work together to achieve, not only administrative savings, but also some savings on the academic programming side as well. I think there are some very real and very positive things going on with respect to universities working together in the province.
They mentioned about working on marketing initiatives as well and they are coming together to see the common benefit of working together in international forums, and so on, marketing Nova Scotia to others.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: There is still some progress to be made, though?
Ms Gaudet: Oh, no, the consortium is still in its first year of operation.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: All we can draw from that is that is not complete yet.
Ms Gaudet: That is right. I do not like to speak for them. They are only starting.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: The second question I have is for you, Ms Thompson. As you are looking after the student debt? You mentioned the fact that students will have an additional 12 months before they must begin repaying their federal loan, which is a positive step in the right direction.
Then you talk about the RESP possibility for the parents.
In terms of the debts you have talked about, it was in the area of $24,000. With debt loads in the area of $24,000, do you think these are going to be sufficient to really remotivate the student who might be on the edge of quitting or hesitate to attend because their debt load will be too high? I agree with you that it is positive, but is it sufficient to relieve this anxiety that most students have, and have talked to us about?
As for the second point about the RESPs, this is not going to bring any support to the people who are already involved in studies. It is too late for their parents to take RESPs, so it will be for the future. Am I right or wrong?
Ms Thompson: You are right in the RESP part. It is definitely for the students of the future.
I think that for the current students, the debt-management strategy, whether it be loan remission, as we call it in Nova Scotia, some mechanism is needed to actually help the students repay the actual debt that they incur, because it is a substantial debt. In the present economy, I know there are more and more students who are rethinking whether or not to put themselves in debt $24,000 for an undergraduate degree, whether it makes economic sense for them to do that. Debt management for the current students is certainly the main issue, as I would see it.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: However, they still have to repay the debt.
Ms Thompson: It is a good investment. EDUCATION is a good investment.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: What about when you have to meet a debt of $24,000 and you are 21 years of age and have not got a job yet, even if you have completed a Bachelor's?
Ms Thompson: Exactly. Again, that is why I say the loan remission is imperative at this point.
The Chairman: Before we bring this to an end, I would like to ask one more question. I notice that Kathleen Thompson is with the Director of Student Assistance with the government and that Marilyn Gaudet is the Deputy Minister. Peter Rans, are you with the government, too?
Mr. Rans: Perhaps I can help clarify some of the confusion about what the Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION is. The Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION advises the minister on policies, with respect to the university system in Nova Scotia. The source of that advice is a council of 13 members, as Ms Gaudet has suggested.
I am one of the staff people for the Nova Scotia Council on Higher EDUCATION. I am the senior policy advisor for the council but, at the same time, if the minister has questions to do with the university system or with the higher EDUCATION system generally, I would be one of the staff members that might provide the minister with advice or briefings, depending what the issue was. It is advisory to the minister but it has an arms-length relationship to the minister, in the sense that it is not completely under the Department of EDUCATION, but parallel to it, giving advice on the university system. Does that help?
The Chairman: So you are not a bureaucrat?
Mr. Rans: That depends on which of my friends you ask right now. I am a bureaucrat in the sense that I am a policy advisor to both the council and to the minister, but I come from, originally, the university community. I used to work at Dalhousie University as a professor.
The Chairman: Is your salary paid by the Government of Nova Scotia?
Mr. Rans: Yes, it is.
The Chairman: That is what I want to know. Thank you very much for your excellent group and your information. Whether it is coming from the government or coming from the department or coming from the council, it is good information to have and it is nice to know who we are talking to, who you represent, and how many people are behind you because otherwise we would be thinking that you are representing 10,000 people or you might represent 13 people, or maybe just representing yourself. It is hard to tell. Actually, you are representing the government of Nova Scotia and you are talking for the Department of EDUCATION as well.
Honourable senators, we have with us from the Students' Union of Nova Scotia, Jennifer Smiley, the president.
Please proceed, Ms Smiley.
Ms Jennifer Smiley, President, Students' Union of Nova Scotia: I am accompanied by my executive assistant, our executive officer, Colleen Cash. I am Jennifer Smiley, a fourth-year student working on my thesis in history and doing a combined honours in history and contemporary studies at the University of King's College. Colleen is our full-time staff person, and she is also a part-time student at St. Mary's University.
The Students' Union of Nova Scotia is an affiliation of 11 student associations in Nova Scotia. At present, we represent about 20,000 students attending the University College of Cape Breton, Saint Francis Xavier University, Nova Scotia Agricultural College, the University of King's College, Saint Mary's University, the Technical University of Nova Scotia, Nova Scotia College of Art and Design, Acadia University, Mount Saint Vincent University, Université Sainte-Anne and the Dalhousie Association of Graduate Students.
We are very pleased to be here today, since we were unable to participate in the student round-table discussion yesterday. Unfortunately, because I sit on the Nova Scotia Higher Appeal Board, I was required to be present to hear complaints about student loans, so that took priority.
I would like to start off by pointing out that our system is very unique here. Of the students within the system, approximately 10,000 come from outside Nova Scotia; we are the only universities in Canada that import more students than we export. It is fairly obvious to us within the system and within Nova Scotia that we are doing something right.
We feel that the Senate's inquiry into Post-Secondary education comes at a very timely place in history, when the Canada Health and Social Transfer is starting to affect students and affect universities across this country. We would like to offer a couple of remarks today and we look forward to your questions.
For about 20 years now, SUNS has advocated for higher EDUCATION that is accessible and affordable. We bring 20 years of experience to the table and we also have quite a few ideas that we would like to present to you. We have heard several presentations today in which people have talked about what the aims of government are and how those aims are substantially affected by the amount of money available, both at the federal level and at the provincial level. I would like to talk to you right now about what students expect when they enter into university and how we must take these aims of students and the aims of government and find a system which is acceptable to both, and affordable and accessible for everyone.
The individual attending university in Nova Scotia is likely very similar to his or her counterparts across the country. A majority of our students are enrolled in arts or science programs; they tend to be between the ages of 20 to 24; a majority of our students are studying full time -- part-time enrolment in Nova Scotia decreased by 5.1 per cent over the ten-year period from 1983-1984 to 1993-1994; a majority of our part-time students were over the age of 30; and among our part-time students, women outnumber the men by two to one.
There are approximately 18,000 students in Nova Scotia on student aid. The average student loan is about $5,900 per year and student aid numbers vary by region. For example, at the University College of Cape Breton statistics of students on financial aid are over 80 per cent at that institution.
Students in Nova Scotia enter Post-Secondary education for a variety of reasons. We have listed in our brief some things that they would look towards under personal development, intellectual development and professional development. We would also like to point out that our mature and part-time students -- there are two universities specifically in the Halifax area which target Post-Secondary education for mature and part-time students, that being Mount Saint Vincent University and Saint Mary's -- have different needs and different problems. As a lot of them are entering into the system with previous financial obligations, their direction for their courses is often much more career related and career or professionally oriented.
After telling you a bit about our students, I would like to now turn to some of the problems and ideas that we have regarding the affordability and accessibility of Post-Secondary education in this province. According to the Atlantic Association of Universities, the total EDUCATIONal cost increased 109 per cent over the ten-year period 1983-1984 to 1993-1994. After discounting for inflation, tuition fees in the maritimes have increased by 50 per cent from 1985 to 1995.
In 1996-1997, the cost of a year of university study in Nova Scotia for an individual living away from home was about $10,000. Currently, Nova Scotia's tuitions are one of the highest in Canada; however, I am sure that next year Ontario will be rivalling us for that place of honour. If our tuition averages about $3,300, the remaining money is about $7,000, which includes books, household operations, clothing, transportation, health care, personal care and room and board.
We would like to point out that EDUCATION is quite expensive and that tuition is often targeted as being one of the most accessible means of evaluating if EDUCATION is expensive or not. What I mean to say is that tuition is the up-front cost that everyone can associate with. It is very easy to find out what tuition rates are and determine how those would affect students. However, there are a lot of hidden costs which students must encounter.
One of the things that we have been captive to for the past while is the effects of the harmonized sales tax on students in Nova Scotia, which rebates the PST on a computer if we purchase it as a full-time student. That program will go by the wayside beginning May 1, which means computer prices will go up for students by about 11 per cent because we have a rposttion of the entire PST currently. Students purchasing such things as school supplies in Nova Scotia receive a rebate on the PST. That will also fall by the wayside. These are two examples, as well as others that we have listed in our brief. It is a hidden cost of EDUCATION and will affect our students starting May 1.
One of the concerns that we have at the Student's Union of Nova Scotia is that often increases in the cost of Post-Secondary education are passed off to the loan system, allowing students to borrow more money to pay back later. What this results in is higher debt levels and debt financing of university EDUCATION, which we feel is unacceptable. For example, with the blended sales tax there is a possibility that our books and supplies allotment in our loan application, which is at $700 now, will probably increase to allow for increased costs in school supplies, et cetera. As we pointed out before, throughout our 20 years experience increasing loan limits, while it increases accessibility to EDUCATION at the beginning of your university career, it means that students are graduating with higher levels of debt, which is unacceptable and hard to pay off.
As loan levels continue to rise, so do default rates and bankruptcy rates. Since 1990, nearly 30,000 people have defaulted on their loans and the incidence of personal bankruptcy among students is increasing. Among the 1995 graduates of the maritime provinces, 22 per cent of them experienced difficulty in paying back their student loans over a two-month period and of that number 58 per cent of this group were employed full time.
I would also like to point out another issue which we have been dealing with throughout the past several months and that is the idea of credit cards and how they are aimed at students. This is another issue which is not usually picked up through any surveys that are done, but many students have access to credit cards and use those credit cards to supplement their EDUCATIONal costs. When they cannot afford to buy food they put it on their credit cards. There is one application that you can fill out and receive six credit cards. That is something of great concern to us because many of those credit cards have really high interest rates.
As far as possible solutions or things that can be done to improve what we feel is a fairly negative problem of higher student debt, we would like to see a federal loan remission program. Kathleen Thompson, who spoke to you just prior to ourselves, mentioned the possibility of this and we support a federal loan remission program in conjunction with the provinces.
Adequate summer employment programs for university students: One of the best forms of student assistance is a summer job. If you do not make money over the summer, you are starting your year behind. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find meaningful jobs and well-paying jobs, and I think we must do something about that. The lack of jobs for students has contributed to a youth unemployment rate of 20.9 per cent in Nova Scotia.
We would also like to see an adjustment to the parental and student contribution tables of the student loan applications. Each year, we feel the figures should be adjusted in order to realistically reflect the amount that these individuals are able to contribute to Post-Secondary education due to rising living costs, et cetera.
We believe that it is very important for adequate information to be available to students. Currently, our loan remission program is being under utilized because it is not advertised on university campuses. This money is available to students if they complete their credits and it is very important with higher student debt levels to be able to apply to these programs.
The Students' Union of Nova Scotia has worked closely with the director of student aid in order to make some changes to the program as we felt it was relatively inaccessible in some respects up until now, and those changes will be implemented over the next two years, which is a positive thing. However, things like the announcement in the budget yesterday of 30 months of interest free relief, this kind of information, must get out to students, which is difficult to do when the students have already graduated from the campuses because they do not have contacts with the institutions or their financial institutions.
Senator Perrault: Get it on the Internet.
Ms Smiley: Get it on the Internet, that is true.
We would also like to point out that we had a financing forum in town here on Monday and we learned from our sponsors -- banks, financial institutions -- that the most important thing for students now to know is that you must maintain a constant relationship with your financial institution and I think that the type of training that is required to enter into dialogues with banks must be addressed at the university level, if not at the high school level before this.
We have talked a lot and most of our remarks have concentrated on the financial barriers to EDUCATION. I would also like to point out to you today that there are a lot of barriers to access which can be considered systemic or very difficult to pinpoint. I would point to students who are African Canadians or disabled women or other visible minorities as being groups that have problems entering into university. Also, we have several examples that we would like to bring to your attention. We believe that there should be a federal initiative to ensure access for these groups, and it is not enough just to get these groups into the university EDUCATION system. There must be support mechanisms for those students whilst they are on the campus, such as daycare for single parents or a black student advisor for international or African Canadian students who are encountering difficulties.
We believe that university EDUCATION in Canada is one of the most fundamental and important things that our society can offer to people of our age and people of all ages. There are many ways in which the society and the individual benefit from Post-Secondary education. A survey of 1995 graduates demonstrates that an individual's income level increased with his or her EDUCATION, which I think is a substantial indication that EDUCATION is necessary in order to assume a good livelihood after you finish school.
In 1996, the unemployment rate for Nova Scotia was 9.5 per cent; however, the unemployment rate among university graduates was 5 per cent, indicating that university graduates tend to participate more in the workforce. That is also an important fact to consider.
I would just like to focus for a few comments on the items arising from yesterday's federal budget. While we recognize that 30 months interest relief is an important gain for students who are on low income and having difficulties paying back their student loans upon graduation, we would also like to point out that why has this been increased. We feel that the reason there has been a recognition that students need more help is one of escalating debt levels, personal bankruptcy, as well as defaulting on loans, and we think the heart of the problem is a lack of funding at the federal and provincial levels.
With that, I look forward to your questions.
The Chairman: I notice that in one place you talked about the health cost. Is not health care pretty well all covered in Nova Scotia by the Canada Health Act?
Ms Smiley: I think that that would refer to the fees that students pay, in most cases. to their student unions to subsidize prescriptions, et cetera.
The Chairman: So it is drug costs, it is not the health costs?
Ms Smiley: Right, sorry, it would be drug costs -- medical costs that are not covered.
The Chairman: That would be pharmaceutical costs, not medical costs?
Ms Smiley: There are some things that are not covered under the Nova Scotia Provincial Health Care, like ambulance costs, if you need to take an ambulance.
The Chairman: That would be ambulance cost; that would not be a medical cost. Medical care, as I understand, in Nova Scotia is paid for by the province and federal government 100 per cent. When you are talking about ambulance costs, that is something extra, if you are talking of pharmacy costs, that is drug costs, but health costs are covered under the Canada Health Act. I just do not like the advertising that they have to pay for their health costs when the government is covering that 100 per cent.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: If you have some disease for which you need medication.
The Chairman: That is drug costs.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: That is a drug cost, but it is related to your health care.
Senator Andreychuk: Or certain operations.
The Chairman: We will settle that at another meeting.
Senator Andreychuk: Under the present system, there is no interest paid on loans after you graduate, let us put it that way, after you leave the institution; in the present plan, I am not sure when it came in, there is an 18-month deferral for students before they must pay.
Ms Smiley: At the federal level, yes, Canada Student Loan.
Senator Andreychuk: However, you must qualify for that deferral. Do you think that is an adequate qualification? Does it really help all the students who really need a deferral, or do you think the deferral mandate is too narrow?
Ms Smiley: Well, the aim of the deferral program is to target those who are in the highest need and also those who have the least amount of resources if they are underemployed. Because it functions on a need basis, I would say it was adequate, although I think the parameters could be increased.
Senator Andreychuk: You are saying that there are so many students who go bankrupt; you have pointed out how difficult it is for them to repay. I have heard from other sources that students say, "Here is my compelling case, but I do not qualify for the deferral." Do you get that feedback from any students?
Ms Smiley: Unfortunately, a lot of our interaction with students is while they are in the EDUCATIONal system. We do not have a lot of communication with graduates so that kind of statistical information or even anecdotal information comes to us via other agencies. We understand the problems, but that has not necessarily been our focus, just because we do not deal with those individuals on a daily basis.
Senator Andreychuk: We have been hearing from students across Canada who say, because it is becoming well known that students are having to carry a large debt load, that many of them, when they got into the school system, did not realize that it would cost them that much when they got out, but that it is now starting to work as a disincentive for the most disadvantaged to even consider it; that they are not being motivated to consider this. Do you think -- and this may be an unfair question to you. In yesterday's budget, the repayment deferral for those that can get it will be moved from 18 months to 30 months. Do you think that that fact alone will counter the attitudes that students have now that their debt alleviation needs to be addressed? I see you shaking your head.
Ms Smiley: No, I would say no. Emphatic no, actually. Although it is important to have a longer period of deferment of interest relief, the fact is that you still must pay back your loan. I do not think that it is addressing the core issue, which is the fact that students right now are paying a lot of money for their EDUCATION.
As far as a disincentive to attend Post-Secondary education system, one example that I think is quite adequate is that it is difficult for people in low-income families to comprehend the idea of assuming a $30,000 debt load for their EDUCATION when their family home does not cost $30,000. So the amount of money is just incomprehensible, and increasing the amount of interest relief will not make that $30,000 any more accessible to anyone.
Ms Colleen Cash, Executive Officer, Students' Union of Nova Scotia: I think that, if anything, extending the interest relief program will actually be more of a disincentive to some students. Thirty months is almost three years. When you think about entering the system: Am I going to need to defer my loan three years before I can start paying it back? Will my debt be that large that I will need to defer the payments that long? Some students may be looking at it that way.
Senator Andreychuk: So the job prospects are still a problem. Do you think that if the job prospects improve the fear of repayment would diminish?
Ms Cash: It might, but you still must do something about the substantial debt level as well. You can graduate and make $40,000 a year, or $50,000 a year, but if you have a debt that is $20,000, $30,000, upwards of $40,000, it is still a substantial amount of debt to carry, no matter what your income level.
Ms Smiley: We would also like to point out something that is often forgotten when we talk about other measures that were introduced in the budget. The idea of having a Registered EDUCATION Savings Plan. If you are graduating at 22 years of age with $40,000 of debt, you are allowed nine years to pay that off, when are you supposed to start contributing to your prospective children's EDUCATION? You debt load is so staggering that you cannot foresee contributing to your pension, in the form of RSPs, let alone to your children's EDUCATION. Many people are in the position of having children while they are still paying off their loan and it creates a cycle of people who are unable to afford to attend Post-Secondary education.
Senator Andreychuk: What are you studying?
Ms Smiley: I am studying Canadian history and contemporary studies.
Senator Andreychuk: May I compliment you in your presentation and your brief, which has been very articulate and balanced, and speaks well for the students that are going through the system. I hope that we do justice in paying attention and that we are equally articulate when we respond to them because I am very impressed with the students.
Senator Perrault: Do you access any of your material on the Internet? I have a CD-ROM of Canadian history because we frequently need material relating to history.
Ms Smiley: I do access the Internet, however, right now my thesis work is concentrated at the public archives.
Senator Perrault: What I am trying to ascertain is if there is an outstanding source of Canadiana information on the Internet that you have found.
Ms Smiley: As I said, my area of expertise is not on the Internet, however, I know that those facilities are available and we do use the Internet daily, most of us.
Senator Perrault: Best of luck with your courses. I love history as well.
Senator Losier-Cool: I too must compliment you on your brief. When you talked about the population that you have on campuses and you mentioned the large number of women, I presume that many of those women would be mothers. Are there daycare services available on campus, and if yes, must they pay for it?
Ms Smiley: That depends on the institution. Colleen probably has a little more information on that than I have.
Ms Cash: It does depend on the institution. Also, we have also been petitioned, so to speak, by different daycare centres across the province to write letters on behalf of obtaining subsidized daycare spaces for students that may be attending university, which indicates, I think, that there must be a lack of space available, if we are being asked to write all these letters on behalf of different organizations.
Senator Losier-Cool: Very often in student union buildings, we see food outlets. We saw Pizza Hut and Second Cup at the library. Do those outlets, because they make money with the students, finance in any way your activities? How does it work with them?
Ms Cash: It depends on the arrangement with the particular food outlet with the university. Some of the food outlets have arrangements made with the university administration, and other food outlets have arrangements made with the student union administration. It depends on the type of arrangement that is being made. Some have exclusive contracts, which would mean that it might be a donation to the scholarship fund or that type of thing. It all depends on the specific arrangements, from what I understand.
Senator Losier-Cool: What about the student union?
Ms Cash: Some have contracts with the student union as well.
Ms Smiley: It depends on the size of the organization as well. A lot of our universities are quite small and as such do not own their own student union building, or they do not have a space available to them other than what is offered by the administration of the university.
Senator Losier-Cool: Do you think that these food outlets make money with the students?
Ms Smiley: Yes.
Ms Cash: That is exactly it; they would not be there otherwise.
Senator Losier-Cool: It is private enterprise.
Ms Cash: In addition to food outlets, I think it is important to point out that there are some food banks developing on some of the campuses in the province, indicating that some students do not have any money to purchase food at all. I think that is something to keep in mind as well.
Senator Lavoie-Roux: In terms of what you have just said about the measure concerning the extension of reimbursement of your loan, you said, no, it will not help people that much because the bulk of the debt is still there. That was my feeling, and so you said no. One of the previous witnesses said that, yes, it would be great. One thing for sure is that the funding for students to pursue their studies is far from being solved, and I think we must give a lot of thought to it.
That is all I wanted to say, and good luck in your studies.
Senator DeWare: Ms Smiley, in our discussion with your students, we had a presentation yesterday from the students with disabilities and having difficulty accessing the campuses in some programs, like this room for instance. Could you reflect on that, if you have had any discussions Is there concern among some of your students, or is the population that big?
Ms Smiley: There is definitely a concern among our students. We have undertaken an initiative through the Students' Union of Nova Scotia last year regarding physical access to university. What we did was write letters to all the university administrations asking them, on all information available to potential students, to comment on how accessible their campus was to students. For example, if a student from British Columbia applied to this institution and arrived here in a wheelchair, you can tell that there would be a lot of problems associated with that. As well, my university, the University of King's College, just put in its first elevator this year.
Unfortunately, the response to this type of endeavour from our organization to university administrators did not seem to result in the action that we would have liked, insofar as they were not open to the suggestion of printing on their material how physically accessible their campus was. However, I think that what must be done is that there must be -- the particular campuses which have disability action groups meet through SUNS and I think that the best way for them to realize their need is to act on their individual campuses. We can do much to help promote their issues around the table, however, it is difficult if you are an able-bodied person to really have an understanding of what kind of problems they encounter and the best way to help those individuals out.
Senator DeWare: If they organize themselves and brought it to your attention, you are prepared to help them with their cause?
Ms Smiley: Yes, and we have subcommittees of our organization and we do have a disability action committee with a budget for campaigns, et cetera, to do that kind of work. They do work within our organization.
The Chairman: We want to thank you, Ms Smiley, for coming forth. I want to tell you that you have a very strong student union in Nova Scotia, SUNS. Keep up the good work, and keep cooperating together until you get further action towards student loans and EDUCATION.
When you say you are studying history, are you studying Greek history, Roman history?
Ms Smiley: Canadian.
The Chairman: Canadian history. That is good, because I asked a couple of history students in Western Canada where the birthplace of Canada was, and they did not know.
Ms Smiley: Oh really? I can tell them.
The Chairman: Good. I think SUNS is doing a good job, and congratulations. If you have any further thoughts, please send them to James van Raalte before May 1.
The committee adjourned.