Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Transportation Safety
Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and Communications
Issue 3 - Evidence - Morning sitting
YELLOWKNIFE, Monday, December 2, 1996
The Subcommittee on Transportation Safety of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 9:40 a.m. to study the state of transportation safety and security in Canada.
Senator J. Michael Forrestall (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: The group in front of you, gentlemen, is a subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Transport and Communications of the Senate of Canada. Our concern is safety in transportation, and not just the problems that we face today -- because they are ongoing and they are with us day by day -- but those in the mid- and long-term future. How do we envision transportation in the year 2025? It is hard not to look back ten years, let alone look ahead more than two or three. It is very difficult, but it is a challenge that we throw out to you.
We are pleased to have with us today a delegation from the Department of Transportation of the Government of the Northwest Territories, headed by the minister, who we are grateful has found time to be with us. Glancing at his presentation, it is indeed comprehensive.
This morning I will ask Senator Willie Adams, who is much better known to all of you than I am, to take the chair. I am a Nova Scotian; Senator Bacon, from Quebec, is the chairman of the standing committee; Senator Gerry St. Germain, who is a pilot, has been a member of the Senate for several years now and former privy councillor. I would ask you to introduce your side but first, I will call on Senator Adams to take the chair.
Hon. Willie Adams (Deputy Chairman) in the chair.
The Deputy Chairman: This morning, as I walked to the hearing here at Katimavik B, it reminded me of the time when I was an MLA in Keewatin from 1970 and 1974 and the system that we used to have here in Yellowknife in the old days, walking back and forth between the Yellowknife Inn and the Elks Hall. Every year, we used to have a Commissioner's Ball at the Elks Hall and bring in the RCMP band from Edmonton. Today, it has changed quite a bit. The legislature now has its own building here in Yellowknife, and all of its members are elected.
When I was an MLA in Keewatin, the members of the legislature were appointed by the then Minister of Indian Affairs. The largest number we had appointed to the legislature was half of the total number of members. Today, we have a fully elected legislature with 24 members.
We have eight official languages and offer translation and everything here. I have been here before for the official opening of the new legislature building. Our members will be looking at the building at noon today. It may be different from the Senate chamber in Ottawa, what we call the Red Chamber, but we are looking forward to our visit.
Thank you very much for coming here this morning. Please introduce your staff.
Mr. Jim Antoine, Department of Transportation, Government of the Northwest Territories: I should like to welcome Senator Adams back, as well as Senator St. Germain, who has visited us previously. For those of you who are here for the first time, I should like to wish you a good stay here in the Northwest Territories.
I am a member of the Legislative Assembly for the constituency of Nahendeh. That is the southwestern part of the Northwest Territories, Nick Sibbiston's constituency. I am the Minister of the Department of Transportation for the Government of the Northwest Territories. I also have two other responsibilities. I am the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, as well as Minister for Safety and Public Service.
With me today are Mr. Bob Doherty, Deputy Minister, Department of Transportation; Daniel Auger, Assistant Director for Program Development and Standards for the Arctic Airport Division; and Pietro de Bastiani, my Executive Assistant.
We are here today to make a presentation on behalf of the Department of Transportation.
The Deputy Chairman: Do you have a brief to present to us, or do you want us to ask questions?
Mr. Antoine: We have quite a lengthy presentation, but the north being a very unique place, we feel that it is important that I go through this whole document. If there are any questions, I will be prepared to answer them after I have completed my presentation.
The Department of Transportation of the Government of the Northwest Territories appreciates deeply the opportunity to make this submission to you on issues related to transportation safety.
Providing transportation services in the Canadian north is a big challenge. The Northwest Territories covers one-third of the land area of Canada. Within this vast area, there are 60 communities. The majority of these communities do not have road access. Their only means of year-round transportation is by air. They rely on once-a-year marine resupply of fuel and dry cargo during the short open water season in late summer.
Transportation safety and reliability must be given the highest priority in the north because of the long distances between points of origin and destination, the remoteness of many of the destinations, and the harsh climate. Indeed, providing safe and reliable transportation infrastructure and services is a fundamental objective of the Department of Transportation in all of our activities.
Both the federal and territorial governments have major roles in transportation safety in the Northwest Territories. The Department of Transportation of the Government of the Northwest Territories manages 52 public airports. We have 2,200 kilometres of all-weather roads, 1,300 kilometres of winter roads, and marine facilities in the major communities, mainly in the east.
On behalf of the federal government, Transport Canada is responsible for safety regulation in air transportation, such as airport certification, security, air navigation; in marine transportation, such as ship safety, ice regime classification; and in interprovincial and interterritorial trucking, such as the National Safety Code, transportation of dangerous goods, and vehicle standards.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard's responsibilities in the north include icebreaking, marine navigation aids, hydrographic surveys, marine radio communication, search and rescue, pollution response, small boat safety, and northern resupply ports.
I will briefly discuss how the federal and territorial governments can address, individually and cooperatively, the main transportation safety issues in the highway, air, and marine modes of transportation in the Northwest Territories.
Dealing with the national highway system, a significant highway safety issue is the low standard of the national highway segment in the Northwest Territories.
Of the 2,200 kilometres of all-weather road in the Northwest Territories, 560 kilometres are part of the national highway system. This national highway connects the capital of Yellowknife and the community of Hay River to northern Alberta and points south. These highways are the lifeline of these two communities, along with the other communities located en route. In addition, more remote communities also rely on these highways, as goods and services are transhipped through Yellowknife and Hay River.
The resource sector also relies heavily on the national highway. Yellowknife is the access point for the Slave Geologic Province, a mineral-rich region that extends from Yellowknife north to the Arctic coast in a band several hundred kilometres wide. There are five of the seven mines currently operating in the Northwest Territories situated within this region. Giant, Con and Ptarmigan are located in Yellowknife at the end of the National Highway, and Colomac and Lupin are located north of Yellowknife. Both of these remote mines depend on the annual construction of winter roads connecting them to the national highway system.
North America's first diamond mine, owned and operated by BHP Diamonds, will also be serviced via the national highway and winter road.
The national highway in the Northwest Territories is not up to standard. In fact, the Northwest Territories has the only gravel sections in the entire national highway system in Canada. The Mackenzie River crossing is the only river crossing in the national highway system where there is no permanent structure. There is no bridge to serve the traffic. The ferry service is interrupted briefly during the winter freeze-up and for three to four weeks during the spring thaw and breakup. The result is inefficiencies in terms of lost time and high vehicle operating costs, poor safety records, reduced opportunities for tourism, and higher costs for doing business.
The Department of Transportation has an aggressive program to upgrade these sections. However, the task is very large and will not be completed until 2010, given the current proposed expenditures.
The department has estimated that it would cost approximately $90 million to finish the reconstruction of the national highway system -- that is, the section between Rae and Yellowknife. An additional $75 million would be required to construct a bridge across the Mackenzie River to eliminate the need for a ferry and the disruption in traffic.
A national highway program with funding from the federal government is required to accelerate the reconstruction of the Northwest Territories section of the national highway system. This would upgrade several sections of the national highway system which are not up to standard, thereby improving safety for highway users.
In developing a national highway program, remote regions such as the Northwest Territories must receive special consideration. It would be quite inequitable if funding priorities for a national highway program are determined mainly on the basis of traffic volumes. Equal weight must be given to the needs of remote regions for safe and reliable roads which provide access to trade and tourism opportunities in underdeveloped regions of Canada.
Regarding road safety programs, the Northwest Territories shares the same road safety concerns as noted in southern Canada. These include issues such as impaired driving, seat belt usage, and proper use of child restraint systems.
In keeping with the directives of the Canadian Council of Motor Transport Administrators, the department has developed a comprehensive transportation safety strategy to address safety issues. Current activities include working with an interagency group to combat impaired driving by following the CCMTA STRID, Strategy To Reduce Impaired Driving, recommendations; promotion of the PARTY program, Prevent Alcohol and Risk-Related Trauma in Youth; promotion of SADD, Students Against Drinking and Driving; enforcement of large vehicle safety regulations; and promotion of seat belt and child restraints.
For the development of these safety-related programs, the department relies heavily on the direction and advice provided by national organizations such as the CCMTA. These programs are then tailored to suit the needs of the north.
In this regard, the department encourages Transport Canada to continue with the compilation and presentation of national safety-related statistics. This provides valuable information in the development of appropriate safety programs and in the determination of their effectiveness.
I will now turn to the National Safety Code. The Department of Transportation implements and enforces the standards for commercial trucks and buses as provided in the National Safety Code.
The department believes that uniformity in commercial vehicle operating standards across all North American jurisdictions must be pursued. The department supports ongoing federal efforts in this regard and will continue to work in partnership with Transport Canada and other provincial/territorial jurisdictions to ensure that highways in the Northwest Territories are safe.
In relation to air transportation and airport infrastructure, in general, airports in the Northwest Territories have a good safety record. The Department of Transportation's basic objective continues to be that all airports meet and operate in accordance with Transport Canada's airport certification and safety standards.
In recent years, the department has made significant strides in eliminating certification deficiencies. This is due, in part, to the financial assistance obtained from the federal government as part of two 50/50 cost-sharing agreements. These agreements include the Airport Construction Contribution Agreement and the Strategic Transportation Improvement Agreement, STIA.
While significant strides have been made towards safer airports, more needs to be done. At the present time, three public airports in the territories do not meet Transport Canada's standards for certification. These airports are located in the communities of Nahanni Butte, Colville Lake, and Grise Fiord. These communities are isolated year-round except for air transportation.
Several other airports remain in conflict with community land use. In both Pangnirtung and Clyde River, the airport is actually located such that pedestrian and vehicular traffic regularly cross the runway. This is a safety concern for the department.
The department will be submitting applications to Transport Canada under the Airports Capital Assistance Program for funding to correct these and other safety-related deficiencies. It is hoped that Transport Canada will look favourably on these applications, especially considering the reliance on air transportation in the north and the serious nature of the safety-related deficiencies and the department would like to see a federal cost-sharing agreement to complete the programs started in the two previous agreements.
Regarding aircraft refuelling regulations, the department has noted a number of safety incidents related to aircraft refuelling operations. To ensure these activities are undertaken safely, the department would encourage Transport Canada to develop policy or guidelines for the safe refuelling of aircraft.
The next area is air navigation services. Air navigation services, formerly provided by Transport Canada and now by NAV CANADA, are critical to air safety in the north because of the severe climate in which air carriers must operate, the remoteness of communities, and the high dependence on air transportation. Air navigation services must not be compromised in the name of fiscal restraint.
The department administers the Community Airport Radio Stations, CARS, component of air navigation services in the Northwest Territories on behalf of NAV CANADA. The department had been asking Transport Canada not to convert CARS to the Automated Weather Observation Station, AWOS, as a cost-saving measure. The special operating conditions of the north require the greater reliability associated with the human component of CARS.
In the interest of public safety, the department will continue to ask NAV CANADA to maintain CARS as a minimum standard for the industry until such time as the AWOS technology has advanced so that it provides the same information that CARS observers would provide.
It is also noted that four airports that presently receive scheduled air traffic <#0107> that is, Lutsel K'e, Wha Ti, Rae Lakes and Snare Lakes -- do not have CARS. The department will be asking NAV CANADA to provide funding to operate these stations. The department will be seeking the support of Transport Canada in this regard.
With regard to airport security, the current Transport Canada regulations require security screening of passengers for flights destined out of the territory. In addition, security is also required to ensure that passengers who have checked in cannot mix with other terminal users.
The department will be lobbying Transport Canada to exempt the north from these regulations. The department believes that there is no significant threat that would justify the expense associated with the security.
For passengers destined to points south, it is proposed that screening be conducted after disembarking. This would be welcomed by the air carriers as a cost-saving measure, since it would eliminate some of the duplication in security screening services.
The department has recognized the need for research on cold weather pavements. Research could lead to improved pavement designs which could improve air transportation safety. Pavement research topics include minimizing the negative effects of the freeze-thaw cycles and permafrost degradation, runway surface friction under various weather conditions, and pavement design alternatives.
The department is looking to share the cost of this research with stakeholders and will be approaching the federal government. Federal funding could be integrated with existing federal research programs such as the National Research Council and research could identify ways and means of improving safety at airports through improved airport pavement designs.
Concerning global positioning systems, the department is excited about the efficiencies that the new navigation systems will provide, since providing these services in the north is expensive. The department would like to encourage Transport Canada to test and certify these new technologies as quickly as possible. The department is willing to test these technologies at airports in the Northwest Territories.
On marine transportation, for the majority of the Arctic communities and for all the communities in the new territory of Nunavut, marine transportation is the only means of resupply. In addition, marine transportation will play an ever-increasing role in the development and export of minerals from the north.
There is also considerable marine activity by local boaters in pursuit of recreation, hunting, and fishing activities. The department operates a program for the construction of infrastructure in communities to facilitate these activities.
Marine activities also include vehicle ferry operations on the Northwest Territories highway system. The department operates five ferries at major river crossings.
The federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard have the sole responsibility for icebreaker support and hydrographic surveys in the Arctic.
The Government of the Northwest Territories is extremely concerned that the federal government downsizing and cutbacks in these programs may jeopardize not only the safety of marine transportation in the Arctic but also future mineral development prospects of both Nunavut and the western territory.
The next are of concern is small boat safety. The drowning rate in the Northwest Territories is the highest in Canada, at an average of almost 15 drowning deaths per year. Of these, an average of seven deaths per year involve boating mishaps. Something must be done to reduce this rate.
With funding obtained from the Canadian Coast Guard, the department has implemented a Small Boat Safety Awareness Program. The main objective is to educate the public on small boat safety issues. The target audience is elementary school children, along with the territorial Hunters and Trappers Association and boating clubs. Partners in this program include other Government of the Northwest Territories departments, the Department of National Defence, the RCMP, the Canadian Red Cross, and Sports North.
The department believes that education will reduce the number of small boat accidents and drowning deaths. The department encourages the federal government, particularly the Canadian Coast Guard, to maintain funding levels for this essential public education program.
The Canadian Coast Guard provides icebreaking services in Arctic waters. Icebreaking and escorting commercial ships through ice-infested waters are required by shippers involved with community and mine resupply activities.
The Canadian Coast Guard is reducing icebreaker service in the western and eastern Arctic.
The department is concerned that northern stakeholders have not been properly consulted about these proposed changes. The department is also concerned about the possible effect that the proposed reduction in service will have on the safety and reliability of marine transportation in Arctic waters.
The department would like to see full consultation with all northern stakeholders prior to making decisions on changes to icebreaking services to ensure that northerners' concerns can be addressed. In this vein, we are pleased to note that the Canadian Coast Guard has established an Arctic Marine Advisory Board to consult with stakeholders and will have its first meeting later this week in Yellowknife.
The territorial government urges the Senate Subcommittee on Transportation Safety to emphasize to the federal government that the Arctic is an underdeveloped region of Canada and therefore must be accorded special consideration when decisions about federal marine programs are taken. Inadequate transportation services will hamper development of our economy and maintain our dependence on federal transfer payments.
On the Canadian Hydrographic Service, hydrographic charts are required for safe and efficient marine transportation. Unfortunately, modern hydrographic charts are not available for many areas of the north. The grounding in the summer of 1996 of a German cruise ship in the Arctic is an example of what can happen without modern hydrographic charts.
The Canadian Hydrographic Service of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is mandated with providing hydrographic charting to support safe marine transportation.
Over the past several years, the department has partnered with the CHS and industry to prove the viability of marine transportation corridors in the north and the development of modern hydrographic charts.
Unfortunately, however, federal cutbacks are negatively affecting the hydrographic work in the Arctic. The department would encourage the federal government to maintain financial support for the Canadian Hydrographic Service. Modern hydrographic charts are essential to marine transportation, one of the basic and most efficient modes of transportation in the north. These charts facilitate both the safe resupply of communities and are required for the safe development of the mineral resources.
We have a number of recommendations. First, on highways, a national highway program with funding from the federal government is required to accelerate the reconstruction of the Northwest Territories section of the national highway system. This would eliminate several sections of National Highway System which are not up to standard, thereby improving safety for highway users.
The Department of Transportation of the Government of Northwest Territories encourages Transport Canada to continue compiling and presenting national safety-related statistics. This provides valuable information in the development of appropriate safety programs and in the determination of their effectiveness.
The department supports ongoing federal efforts to develop uniform large vehicle safety regulations and is prepared to work in partnership with Transport Canada and other provincial/territorial jurisdictions to develop uniformity.
Second, concerning air travel, the department requests that Transport Canada fund safety-related air infrastructure improvements required at airports in the north from its Airports Capital Assistance Program. The department would also like to see a new federal cost-sharing agreement to complete the upgrading of Arctic airports to certification standards, a job started in two previous cost-sharing agreements.
The department encourages Transport Canada to develop policy or guidelines for the safe refuelling of aircraft.
The department also requests that NAV CANADA provide special consideration for the north in the provision of air navigation services. These services are critical to air safety in the north because of the severe climate in which air carriers must operate, the remoteness of communities, and the high dependency on air transportation. Air navigation services must not be compromised in the name of fiscal restraint. As a minimum, community airport radio stations should be provided at all airports with scheduled air traffic.
The department requests exemption for airport security regulations to allow carriers to screen passengers headed to southern Canada on disembarking.
The department requests that the federal government cost-share research related to cold weather pavements.
Finally, the department encourages Transport Canada to test and certify new air navigation technologies as quickly as possible. The department is willing to test these technologies at airports in the Northwest Territories.
There are four recommendations in the marine area.
First, the department encourages the federal government, particularly the Canadian Coast Guard, to maintain funding levels for the Small Boat Safety Awareness Program.
Second, the department requests that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans consult with all northern stakeholders prior to making decisions on changes to icebreaking services to ensure that northerners' concerns can be addressed.
Third, the department urges the federal government to maintain financial support for the Canadian Hydrographic Service. Modern hydrographic charts are essential to marine transportation, one of the basic and most efficient modes of transportation in the north.
Fourth, the department urges this Senate Subcommittee on Transportation Safety to emphasize to the federal government that the Arctic is an underdeveloped region of Canada and, therefore, must be accorded special consideration when decisions about federal programs are taken.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Senate committee for its attention. I will be pleased to answer any questions that the committee may have, and we will provide the committee members with any additional information that they wish to have.
The Deputy Chairman: Thank you for an interesting brief.
Senator St. Germain: First, I should like to thank the minister and his staff for coming here this morning and presenting to us a comprehensive brief which covers all the aspects of concern here. A lot of thought has gone into it and we thank you for that.
My questions gravitate more towards the air side, because it is something with which I am more familiar.
I have a question regarding to marine transportation. How important is this factor of transportation in regards to the development of the resources? Is it tied into organizations like BHP, the diamond scenario? You put a fair amount of emphasis on marine, but is air not the predominant method of travel? Could you enlighten me, please?
Mr. Antoine: Thank you, especially for the question regarding resource development and specifically on BHP.
Yes, a lot of air traffic is involved in the exploration phase of the whole BHP mine exploration, but a lot of ground transportation is also required. This occurs in the winter months, when all the lakes are frozen. An ice road is created and all the different materials and supplies that are required to do the work in the BHP area, which is north of here, are transported over that road.
The majority of the heavy material that goes in and comes out is transported by winter road. At this time, companies are beginning to build ice roads and ensuring that the ice is thick enough to be able to hold the heavy trucks that are required to go into that area.
There is a fair amount of air traffic. Charter planes are also going there. BHP operations has built their own airstrip in their exploration area and are flying in fairly large aircraft to move people around and some supplies in and out during the summer months.
In relation to marine transportation, we have two mines in the north, one up on Cornwallis Island, the Polaris mine, and the Nanisivik mine in the Baffin area. These two mines require marine resupply every summer. They take the ore concentrate out of there as well and there is a requirement to provide a means of transport for it.
In the future, there is interest for further mineral exploration in the north where, eventually, there will be a requirement to have all the necessary charts, routes, and hydrographic charts developed for those areas.
Senator St. Germain: You said that the airports located in the communities of Nahanni Butte, Colville Lake and Grise Fiord do not meet up to the standards for certification. Is this something geographical? What is the problem there? Why have they not been able to get certified?
Mr. Antoine: Nahanni Butte is one of the communities in my constituency. It is a small strip that was developed some years ago. It is in a bad location. Lack of funding is a factor. If there was adequate funding for it, then we could relocate it so that it would be in a more suitable place and would remain the required length and width.
Colville Lake is a small community north of Norman Wells, which requires it to remain the standard length and width.
As for Grise Fiord, I was in Grise Fiord on November 18. That is the first time I saw sunrise and sunset at the same time. That is an interesting community. The community is located such that it is right along the coast and there is a high cliff behind it. When you are landing in an aircraft, you have to head toward the cliff and turn and land at the last minute. The geographical composition predisposes it to be that way.
I think the community is looking at changing the location, but that requires a substantial amount of money which we do not have. We would like to correct these type of deficiencies and bring them up to code, but that means additional dollars from the federal government -- that is to say, a cost-sharing agreement of some sort.
Senator St. Germain: With the reduction of money available in Ottawa, has any consideration been given to assessing the major users -- that is, the resource companies that are coming in here -- with an additional tax to assist with some of these things such as the road system, if they are using the road system?
I do not suggest this to discourage development up here. It may have a negative impact, but I wonder whether this has been discussed at your level of government because restraint and cutbacks are being incurred everywhere.
Mr. Antoine: Yes, the department has been working on developing a strategy, mainly for completing the highways. There are quite a few major users north of Yellowknife with the BHP mine that got the green light just recently to go ahead and start developing. There are gold mines north of Yellowknife and there are a lot of good potential mining opportunities up in that part of the country in the Slave Geological Province.
We anticipate a lot of vehicle traffic such as heavy trucks, with fuel resupply and material for building mines, and so on, travelling on the highway system via the winter road systems this year and into the future. With that in mind, we are working on a strategy where we will be approaching all the different companies that use the roads. We would like to approach the federal government as well. Perhaps there are programs that we could use. There may be an infrastructure program in the works. Perhaps we could make use of a program like that, in association with the stakeholders. We may also put a package together that will eventually fund infrastructure development.
There are some aboriginal groups up here that have concluded land claims, and we could also approach them as stakeholders as well. They have some funding available to them through their claims agreements. Perhaps we could approach the First Nations, the different interested companies and the governments concerning this matter. We are developing a strategy that will approach all these stakeholders. We could form a conglomerative association that would seek financing to develop the highway system. So, yes, we are looking at different scenarios.
Senator Bacon: Thank you for your brief and your thorough review of the issues that are related to transportation safety.
My first question concerns about private aircraft. Are they frequently used here in the Territories? Is there any concern regarding, for example, the training of pilots, overloading of aircraft, or system of navigation aids?
Mr. Antoine: Yes, a few private aircraft are being used in the north. We also receive a lot of private aircraft that come up from the south, mainly in the summertime on tourist fishing trips. We do have a lot of private aircraft that come into the north.
Regarding the training of pilots, it is quite a high cost. Our government does not have the funding to train the necessary pilots in the north. There is a private school here for training pilots as well. Through the companies themselves, there is a lot of initiative to support development of the pilots in the north. We have quite a few charter airplane companies throughout the north, and we have pilots that come up here to develop their skills. Once they get enough flying time, I think they go south to fly bigger airplanes, perhaps. We seem to go through quite a few pilots in the north here.
In relation to overloading and the navigation system, we are very concerned about the changes that Transport Canada is making where they are switching over to NAV CANADA while, at the same time, changing the regulations regarding communications and the flight service stations. We had quite a few flight service stations in the north, and Transport Canada is changing all that. NAV CANADA is taking that over.
Transport Canada is also trying to eliminate the CARS program. We are concerned about that in the north here, especially in the high Arctic, for example. The last time I was in Grise Fiord, a high wind came up when we were attempting to leave and it was very tricky taking off with a small plane. Every day, people in the communities in the high Arctic must live through those kinds of experiences. For example, if you are flying into Resolute Bay, you have to phone a recording service in Edmonton. That gives you a lot of concern.
Up here, because of the remoteness and the different kinds of weather conditions, we need the human factor involved when you are flying up in the high Arctic and you are concerned with safety.
Senator Bacon: In the south, there have been discussions regarding funding renewal of the national highway system. One proposal for funding is that a portion of the gasoline fuel tax be dedicated to highway renewal so that a highway trust fund could be established.
Would you be in favour of such a scheme? Some provinces have indicated that they would be prepared to participate in such a program if the federal government took the lead. They would also dedicate funds for highway renewal.
Is this a practical option for the Territories? Could you afford to participate in a cost-sharing program for the upgrading of the national highway system, or is it a different story here?
Mr. Antoine: If we had a large population and a lot of cars we would benefit quite a bit from that type of proposal, but we have a very small population compared to southern Canada. Although we are in favour of such a proposal, I do not think that we would be able to build many roads if we depended only on that. The costs up here to fix up the roads are quite substantial because of the weather conditions.
We are in favour of such a program, but our price for gas up here is already quite high compared to southern prices. If we must charge more to try to pay for our share of road reconstruction, it will not work for us. We will have to depend on other sources for fixing the national highway system in our part of the country here.
Senator Bacon: It should be a different scheme for the Territories. Would you consider a different scheme if the provinces would accept a nation-wide scheme for the highway?
Mr. Antoine: Yes. I think we would look at a different scheme.
We depend a lot on the south for materials and goods. For whatever development that is taking place in the north here, we buy the supplies, the fuel and the gas from Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and even Quebec. The southern provinces will benefit from whatever development that takes place in the north here. We must look at different schemes and the southern provinces must look at the benefits that they will receive from any type of development that happens in the north.
Senator Bacon: On page 8 of your brief, you urge the department not to cut back on the Canadian Hydrographic Service because federal cutbacks are negative on the service.
Is there any other way to fund this? Could all the users participate in funding -- that is, the Government of the Northwest Territories and the federal government -- or do you wish to have only the federal government fund this service?
Mr. Antoine: We have a lot of places in the north to which we could travel via the ocean, but there are only some areas where there are fairly well-known routes for ships to go. We need to develop that more. As a territorial government, we do not have the type of funds to develop those hydrographic charts on our own. We need to get the funding from perhaps the federal government to help us develop these charts.
At the present time, the Northwest Territories does not control the resources that are up here, the federal government does. The federal government grants the authority for any mines that develop up here and the royalties that come from the development of any mine up here go to the federal government. If any type of mineral development is to happen up in the high Arctic, the federal government will reap the benefits.
Approximately 80 per cent of every dollar that is spent in the north for development all goes to the south. Whatever happens in the north, the south is benefiting from us.
There is a real need to develop the north. One way to do so is to further develop the hydrographic charts in the waters of the high Arctic so that any type of interest that may wish to go up into the north will use these charts to further develop the north.
Yes, we must look at other ways, perhaps, if the federal government does not have the dollars to develop these areas. We need to develop these hydrographic charts. Perhaps we will have to look at the private sector and the different industries and companies that may want to go into these waters. That is a good suggestion, and we will have to look at that as well.
Senator Forrestall: I join with the others in what they said earlier and reiterate my appreciation for your appearance here this morning.
That is quite a wish list. I have a couple of questions about today's problems. You touched on one of them with respect to motor vehicle traffic. Could you give us some parameters with respect to the truck volume that utilizes this northern system? Where does it actually begin? Does it begin in Edmonton?
Mr. Antoine: We do not have that information on the truck volume at the present time, but usually a lot of the trucking that goes into this part of the country comes out of Edmonton, and other places as well.
Senator Forrestall: Do you consider Edmonton to be the beginning of the northern section of the national transportation system?
Mr. Antoine: Yes, it is.
Senator Forrestall: How much of it is gravel?
Mr. Antoine: About 130 kilometres of it is gravel.
From here to Rae is a big complaint, and then just the other side of Rae, there is approximately 40 kilometres that still has to get upgraded. We have been working at upgrading, chipsealing and paving the rest of it over the last few years. Every year we do a few kilometres. The rest of it between here and the border is pretty well paved, but we still have some to do.
Senator Forrestall: How far is it to Edmonton, roughly?
Mr. Antoine: It is about 1,500 kilometres.
Senator Forrestall: That reminds me of Halifax, as well. Our rent all goes to central Canada too, just as yours does up here. I will be among those Canadians who will be much happier when you start spending your rent the way you want to spend it, not the way some of us others want it to be spent.
I have a supplementary to Senator Bacon's concerns about hydrographic services and the Arctic survey.
I do not know where it stands now, but you will perhaps be aware that the department went to Fednav a few years ago and asked them to develop a protocol for northern operation, particularly foreign flag ships, but as well in a mandatory sense for Canadian vessels. I know something about the protocol, because my son happens to have written it. He is very experienced in your northern waters. He happened to be a contributor. It was a massive undertaking. Do you know if it has been finished and if it is in place?
Mr. Antoine: I will ask Mr. De Bastiani to reply to that.
Mr. Pietro De Bastiani, Department of Transportation, Government of the Northwest Territories: Certainly the standards under the Canada Shipping Act for ships operating in Arctic waters have been brought to significantly high standards.
Canada is a leader, I guess, in the protocol for Arctic nations, and people have looked to our construction design standards and protection-against-spill approaches.
In the Northwest Territories, we do have Canadian registered ships that deliver resupplies, and then we have foreign vessels that enter to pick up the concentrates from the mines the minister mentioned and carry the products to Europe.
We also have northern organizations such as NTCL which have chartered very high ice class and modern tankers to deliver fuel in the Territories, and they all have to meet these rigid Canadian standards which the other polar nations are getting ready to adopt as the standard. We are in relatively good stead in terms of the international ships that come into our waters.
Unfortunately, there is a very restricted season in the Arctic, and Canadian shippers do not have the confidence with the current Coasting Trade Act to be able to build the ships to meet upcoming challenges so that Canadian suppliers themselves can take advantage of mining-related opportunities to deliver cargo to the Arctic.
There is still a challenge. I am sure many Canadian companies would love to participate in mineral development in the Arctic. Will the ships that allow these Canadian port-to-port operations exist in the Canadian system years from now? Will the shipyards be ready to help build that next generation of ship?
There are some challenges still ahead, but in terms of your safety issue, I believe we have a very good system now to ensure safe shipping.
Senator Forrestall: In your mind, though, the lack of adequate charts remains a vital question to safety.
We lost the former HMCS Labrador, and we lost the Hudson. We are now down to basically the St. Laurent and that fleet of Class 7s. While they are excellent ships, the difficulty is in freeing them up to do hydrographic work when they are required for other operations.
Looking down the road, I say that the longer you delay the availability of accurate and adequate charts, the longer you project a critical operational situation. The longer you project it into the future, the more often we will experience drownings.
God forbid, but we will have something with a single hull up there. Ice can go through two hulls just as easily as it can go through one. We will have a spill. That is part of the safety component.
If you are relatively happy now, will you be happy in 10 years with the rate of progress that you see, or are you sufficiently concerned that you would tell us that we must move faster in this area, that traffic is growing exponentially, that more people are going up there, and that the opportunity for accidents becomes more critical?
Mr. De Bastiani: In direct response to that, the territorial government has been involved since 1993 with industry and Fisheries and Oceans in cost sharing and working on keeping ahead of the priorities in the hydrographic area. Long before it became fashionable to involve private-public partnerships, we have been doing this in the North. It is basically the way we get things done.
With respect to Pelly Bay, for instance, new charts were made in 1993. We were able to introduce shipping into an area that previously had only seen air resupply.
We are working year to year with the hydrographic service. We have improved the southern route of the Northwest Passage in anticipation of development in the Kitikmeot region. We have worked on improving the chart, a two-year program with the Hudson in improving the approaches in the Rankin Inlet area, where there is significant development going on.
We are working day to day with the hydrographic service, and we are funding partners. We are there at the table, and industry has come forward. They know that they need answers to the depth of water available two years before they make a commitment on developing a project. You cannot wait until that final feasibility stage to find out if you have a 10- or 15-metre clearance.
We would like to see at least the maintenance of attention on bringing these priority areas to standard and working with us on the challenges of preparing the route for new opportunities.
Senator Forrestall: I assume it goes without saying that Environment Canada's input is both requested, required and welcomed.
Mr. De Bastiani: Under the new amalgamation of Department of Fisheries and the Coast Guard, the Coast Guard was taken from Transport Canada. Now we have the new "Department of Fish and Ships," I guess we will call it, salty and regular.
We are working with people in Sarnia. You understand that Fisheries and Oceans has its central and Arctic region. We used to have a northern region in Ottawa that we could consult on a day-to-day basis to make sure that the Crown was getting the best value for the shrinking dollars available in the north.
The challenge now for us is to work with the people in the central and Arctic region. They have the distraction of dealing with the Great Lakes at the same time, an area which does not share the same problems. They have a large recreational boating area; they have the St. Lawrence Seaway; and they do not have the summer ice problems that we have in the Arctic. We are trying to sensitize them daily to keep the ball rolling. We are looking for good cooperation with the new central and Arctic region.
Senator Forrestall: We are an ideal group to sensitize. I support whatever you can do in that regard. In twenty years' time we will be talking a million people to the north to see something, and it will be a little late to start wondering what might happen in certain circumstances.
I wish to briefly come back to where Senator St. Germain left off on the issue of air safety.
Are you making any progress with respect to AWOS? Is that an element? In British Columbia we saw the closing down of lighthouses and the installation of less than 100 percent reliable automated systems. If that is happening in the Arctic, are you not facing serious navigational problems? Did I understand you correctly to say that? Perhaps you could elaborate.
You will lose manned radio stations, the person who looks out the window and says that there is a 200-foot ceiling. You know that he knows what he is talking about. A machine looks straight up and straight out but does not look sideways. Could you elaborate on that?
Mr. Antoine: We have a big concern, of course, in the direction air navigation technology is taking. Community Air Radio Stations are working very well with us now. We work with communities in the high Arctic to provide that service for us. We have contracted out to the different hamlets and the communities to provide the service for us, and we are very satisfied. We think it is a very successful program.
However, with the AWOS coming in, we are very concerned that the technology might not be developed to the point where it is reliable. We would like to work with the company there to ensure that we are consulted as we move along. We do not want to make a commitment to move away from CARS until we are satisfied that it is very reliable.
It is a fiscal restraint exercise, I think, to make cutbacks in that area. However, we think the safety of air transportation and traffic in the north will be jeopardized if we move in that direction unless we were very satisfied that the technology is advanced to the point where it will be reliable.
With respect to my personal experience travelling in the Arctic, I would rather have someone running a CARS tell me what the actual conditions are and at least double-check two or three times before I make the decision to take off or to land.
Senator Forrestall: Minister, this morning Senator Adams said technology is great. You can find that caribou herd any time you want to. The trouble is, they still have not found the fellow who went out and put the bells around the necks of certain caribou. He did not have a GPS with him. He left it with the caribou. We must be careful not to fall into that kind of trap because here it can be particularly dangerous.
I am pleased to see that you place a fair amount of faith in the expansion of the GPS technology.
What will you do about firefighting services at airports? You did not really touch on it.
Mr. Antoine: The Emergency Response Service was provided under Transport Canada when they were maintaining all the Arctic airports. Since they changed the regulations, there is no longer a requirement to have Emergency Response Services at all the Arctic airports. As a result, we had to terminate that program.
Yellowknife, according to Transport Canada, still requires the ERS, so we still have the firefighting capabilities at the airport here. Places such as Norman Wells, Inuvik, Resolute Bay, Hay River and Fort Smith had ERS a couple years ago, but since they are no longer required -- and the feds were funding it -- we had to terminate that program.
We have one concern in Iqaluit, where it is now the capital of Nunavut. Transport Canada still has not determined whether the ERS is required there. Our department is working with Transport Canada to obtain some real, definite answers to see whether this service is still required in Iqaluit.
What we have been told to this point is that it is not required there any longer. However, with Iqaluit being the capital, within the last year there have been a number of serious aircraft incidents that required the ERS. I think a 747 had to make an emergency landing there this summer and hit a fuel pump. They needed that service. A Canadian Air Force plane, a CF-18, crashed there recently. They required that service. It seems that there are a lot of requirements at this airport for the ERS. However, it is a decision of Transport Canada to fund this system or not. We are still trying to find out from them what their decision will be, whether they will continue to fund the service at this airport or not.
Hopefully that answers your question about what we think of the ERS. There has not been a requirement to use that service in other communities where the ERS was let go, such as Norman Wells and Inuvik. Local firefighting teams have picked up some of the equipment.
Senator Forrestall: The fiscal capability has not been lost to the North; it has just simply gone to the communities.
Mr. Antoine: Yes. In some of the communities, local firefighting brigades have taken up some of the equipment and have done some training in how to respond the way that the firefighting team at the airport would have responded. They picked up the slack in terms of firefighting and now provide the service at the airport.
Senator St. Germain: You made mention of refuelling safety. Is it a problem? Is it a big problem? Have you had many major accidents in this regard?
My other question relates to the GPS, but I will be able to ask that question of the standards and training pilots from First Air or the Northern Air Transport Association.
Mr. Daniel Auger, Assistant Director, Program Development, Department of Transportation, Government of the Northwest Territories: Over the years, we have quite often experienced fuel spills at refuelling points, and it is a major concern for us.
Senator St. Germain: It is the spill itself, though, rather than explosions, accidents or injuries.
Mr. Auger: That is correct.
The Deputy Chairman: Minister, in your brief you did not mention what happened this summer at some of the communities patrolled by the Coast Guard or the military. Sometimes people have been lost on the land. People have been seal hunting and were lost on the flow ice and lost at sea. Is the Government of the Northwest Territories responsible for that, or only the Coast Guard? Are the feds responsible for the searching for people lost on the land and the water and the sea?
Mr. Antoine: Federal department agencies are responsible for these types of responses, but as the Government of the Northwest Territories, we are also involved. Emergency measures committees deal with some of these issues whenever there is an emergency on the land. For example, let us say there are people lost, especially out at sea. We cooperate to provide the services, and on occasion we have been involved in rescue activities that are as a result of these situations.
The Deputy Chairman: Where I come from down east, there are accidents with hunters on skidoos. Is it the responsibility of the municipality to regulate these matters in the community and nothing to do with the Northwest Territories Department of Transportation?
Mr. Antoine: It is mainly the responsibility of the municipalities. The Municipal Community Affairs Department, in conjunction with the communities themselves, deal with that sort of thing. As the Department of Transportation, we are not involved in those situations.
With respect to the Hondas and the all-terrain vehicles, I think there are municipal bylaws. They are responsible for enforcing the bylaws in the communities.
The Deputy Chairman: You mentioned the funding of the airport between the feds and the territorial government. At one time there was a 100 percent funding by the federal government for the airport. In your previous answer you said it is now 50/50. You said you cannot come up with $1 million for one year and that it will be a long process. You said that it cannot be done in one year but that it could be a three- or four-year program.
I have been in those and other communities. You mentioned Pangnirtung, between the community and the airport, with planes landing right in the middle of the community.
My concern is with Grise Fiord and Pangnirtung. Those are very important. We have winter roads in some of the communities in the Western Arctic. How long a program have you set? Your minister says he needs a couple of million dollars, and then the feds come up with a couple of million. How would that system work?
Mr. Antoine: In the airport transfer, a certain number of dollars were transferred from the federal government to the Government of the Northwest Territories to provide for the continuing operation and maintenance of the airports. There is some capital money in there to keep fixing up the airports, such as terminal buildings, perhaps new lighting, and perhaps doing some resurfacing work. Some airports are unsafe, like Pangnirtung. Its airport is right in the middle of the community.
Tommy Enuaraq, the MLA from there, asked me a question in the house the other day. His community is requesting that this airport be relocated for two reasons. They are safety reasons. The airport is in the middle of the community. The community has grown around it.
Second, the length of the airport runway can accommodate only 748s, and they figure that if the airport runway is longer, perhaps bigger aircraft could come in. Unfortunately, to lengthen the existing runway is very costly, and I think to relocate it is very costly as well. That requires an agreement with the federal government to get additional money for a major project like that.
I think the airport runway at Grise Fiord only accommodates a Twin Otter. That is the biggest plane that can go into Grise Fiord. There, too, the community requests bigger airstrips.
Almost every community in the north is asking that the airstrips be lengthened. The reason is that a recent Transport Canada regulation states that an aircraft has to use 60 per cent of the runway for safety reasons. We are exempt from that regulation in the Northwest Territories until the year 2010.
We can continue using existing types of aircraft. However, many communities in the Eastern Arctic are requesting that their airstrips be lengthened so that bigger aircraft can bring freight in. In a lot of these cases, communities depend on aircraft to bring in freight. The communities need fresh produce, such as vegetables, apples and oranges. The sealifts only bring in fuel and dry goods. For fresh produce, you need to bring it in by aircraft. It is very expensive if you are using a smaller aircraft. These communities want to expand their airstrips so that the payload on these aircraft can be higher and perhaps the cost will be lower. However, given the number of requests we have received to date asking the Department of Transportation to increase the length of the airstrips, we figure we will have to spend over $100 million to honour all requests. Not only are Pangnirtung and Grise Fiord requesting changes. Everyone else is asking as well. Arviat is asking for it, as well as Pelly Bay and Taloyoak. Everyone is requesting that their airports be expanded. However, the level of funding we have received from the federal government to operate the 52 airports is at a fixed rate and does not accommodate the number of requests for expansion.
The department has identified Pangnirtung and Grise Fiord as two communities with a high priority. We think these airports require additional support. The money is not in the existing budget, so we have to request other arrangements.
Senator Forrestall: Minister, thank you for that. I understand the dilemma that this poses for you.
Could you tell us what your three gravest concerns are about transportation safety in the north and where you would like to see those concerns by the year 2010?
Mr. Antoine: The first one would be air safety. I think it is a higher priority because in the Northwest Territories the majority of communities are serviced only by airports. Transport Canada is changing the regulations in regard to the size of the airport, the aircraft that fly into these airports, the navigation aids and the communication system. Whenever there is a change, you try to anticipate all the problems and concerns that come with the change, and many unanticipated problems creep in. We want to make sure that everything is closely scrutinized before any major changes are made.
If we go with what Transport Canada is doing in changing regulations, we are very concerned that it may cause a lot of problems for us in terms of safety. Our number one concern, therefore, is air safety in transportation.
Senator Forrestall: You would place that ahead of adequate certification, airworthiness inspections, and the issuance of licences for rotary and fixed wing aircraft. You would place this other aspect of aviation as your number one concern? What is number two?
Mr. Antoine: The existing certification and qualification for airworthiness is there already. There are no recommendations for making any changes to it.
Senator Forrestall: You are happy with how it is working out.
Mr. Antoine: Yes.
Senator Forrestall: There are sufficient inspectors to allow the people who use small aircraft that wonderful luxury of getting on the plane comfortably, flying comfortably, landing comfortably, and having confidence in the system to deliver them safely. That is all I meant by that. You feel that that simple test is being met here in the north.
Mr. Antoine: Yes, senator, up to this point. If there are no cutbacks in that area, I would say yes, I am satisfied. As a department, we have not heard any real serious concern about the service being provided by Transport Canada. The reason why I emphasize the safety aspect --
Senator Forrestall: To keep a sharp eye on them.
Mr. Antoine: -- is just to make sure that they do not make any cutbacks in that area.
Senator Forrestall: What is number two?
Mr. Antoine: Number two would probably be highway safety. There are no highways in the east. I think the longest highway section is between Nanisivik Mine and Arctic Bay, 36 or 38 kilometres.
In the west here, I think a lot of traffic will start happening because of the buildup of the BHP mine. I just received a note which says that in the winter of 1996-97, we may see over 3,000 B-trains going north of Yellowknife on the ice road to support the Lupin gold mines and the BHP project. The local traffic to support the build up in the North will increase as well. There will be a substantial amount of travel in this area.
With our own internal cutbacks, hopefully we do not have a major impact on the operation and maintenance of our highway system. Our existing highways must be maintained to a certain level so that they do not deteriorate and become unsafe. That is my number two concern.
Senator Forrestall: What is number three?
Mr. Antoine: It has to do with small boat safety and safety on the water. We had a big tragedy out of Iqaluit a couple of years ago. A boat went down with all those people in it. We have to ensure that we make people aware of the safety required when they are boating.
I am from Fort Simpson. I use the river. I used to fish on Great Slave Lake, so there is a real requirement for a high level of safety.
Many people go out on the land, on the rivers, and on the lakes. In the eastern Arctic, people go far away from the communities, sometimes in very rough conditions. I think former MLA Ludy Pudluk bought a boat from here and went all the way down the Mackenzie and along the north coast to Cambridge Bay, and then he went up to Resolute Bay. People travel long ways with small craft.
Senator Forrestall: That is a long way.
Mr. Antoine: A few people have gone from Hay River to Cambridge Bay, down the Mackenzie River and along the north coast. People do travel extensively on small craft in the north. We need to make sure that there is full awareness of the safety precautions required if you pursue those kinds of activities in the North.
The Deputy Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, for your time. We could go on all day.
Transportation in the north is very interesting. Winter roads and airlines are very important up here. You do not have all the facilities they do down south. You can drive from Vancouver to Newfoundland, but you cannot drive up to Rankin Inlet from Yellowknife.
Mr. Antoine: Thank you very much.
The Deputy Chairman: Senators, our next witness is Mr. David Lovell, mayor of the City of Yellowknife.
Mr. Lovell, we have important concerns about transportation. We are concerned mainly about safety in some of our communities.
We are a long way from Ottawa. Coming to small communities allows us an opportunity to see the difference between small communities and other cities. We are all concerned about what is happening to our small communities.
Living in Ottawa for close to 20 years, I listen to the radio or watch TV to find out information about what is going on in Ottawa. In the small northern communities, if something happens, you meet your friend and you know everything right away.
Your Worship, sorry to keep you waiting this morning. Welcome to our committee.
Mr. David Lovell, Mayor, City of Yellowknife: First, I think the previous presentation was well worth hearing, and to the extent that it impacts on Yellowknife, I endorse it fully. I thought it was very well done, and I appreciate your listening.
I wish to start by thanking you very much for being here. This is an awful long way to travel, and you are very welcome. It is indeed a privilege for us to have this committee sitting here.
I am here as much to answer questions as to give you a long, prepared statement. I do have one comment to make, and then I would like to express a concern.
First, the majority of benefit from resource development in the north ultimately flows to the south because that is where the manufacturing centres and the population centres are. The benefit goes right through.
There was a bit said during the previous presentation about funding improvements in the north, and I think what must be realized is that there is not an awful lot of things to tax here. When you talk about 800 employees at the BHP mine, what that means is 800 employees, period. There are no families there. You will not find the infrastructure, the support groups and everything else that you would find, say, when they developed Sudbury or Noranda where communities were built around a mine. What you have here are benefits flowing to Yellowknife. They may go around once or twice, but ultimately they flow to the southern communities. The benefit really does go out.
We do not have a large, local population. Increasing airport taxes or something to try to cover a large proportion of that just would not work. You would not raise an awful lot of money there.
That is my comment. It is a different situation here. My concern is really that the lack of road access to mineral deposits is a very serious constraint to development. They used to have the old Roads to Resources Program, which is paying its way now. It did not at one time, but it has come of age. I hope senior governments have the vision to see that and address it.
The previous speaker mentioned 3,000 B-trains, but what he is talking about is 1,000 a month because we have a very narrow window. Most of the B-trains will be coming here over prepared roads, but they will go to their ultimate destinations over lakes and through portages.
When you talk about safety on these winter roads, there are two concerns. The one is, I guess, the blood and guts issues where you have accidents. There is not a lot of leeway here. A breakdown at the wrong time and in the wrong place could mean you freeze to death. That is quite literally the truth.
All-weather roads extend the access period, among other things. The constraints are on the southern end of these roads because they freeze later and thaw earlier. A road that is perfectly good in April on the north end is impassable at the south end.
We do have the safety issue on winter roads, but there is another impact, and it is environmental safety. I think that deserves to be addressed as well.
What we have is something travelling over quite a sensitive ecosystem. Again, the notion of all-weather roads to the right places is economically viable and ecologically viable as well.
I am quite prepared for any questions you might have. You must realize that my area is much narrower than the Northwest Territories. It is the City of Yellowknife and access to and from the city.
There is one interesting point that might illustrate the difference with what we are dealing with here. Given the amount of air traffic we have in and out of Yellowknife, every person in Yellowknife would have to fly south ten times in one year to make that up. We use both scheduled and charter airplanes, much as I think the people in the south would use buses and taxis. It is a different thing. Much of our access is completely dependent on an air transportation system. To date, we have been very well-served. There is a bit of concern that this continue.
Senator St. Germain: You stated that your responsibilities are a bit narrower than the previous witnesses who appeared before us. Do you have a long-range plan for the next 20 or 25 years that would indicate the requirements for this particular area with respect to road systems and additional airports and how this will impact the safety of your residents?
Mr. Lovell: As far as predicting the future right now, being such a small population -- maybe 45,000 in the Western Arctic and 20,000 in Yellowknife -- even a small numerical increase proportionately is very big. Just about anything can happen.
What we do have now is one of the busiest airports in Canada. It has, I believe, been very well-maintained and we have been well-served there.
Our road system is starting to stretch. Although they mentioned paving and everything else, I think the absolute use of the road system, if it doubles, triples or quadruples, will wear the roads out very quickly. That certainly will impact on safety.
Speaking of Yellowknife itself, the airport will probably be reasonably adequate for quite a while with whatever upgrades are necessary.
This may be a small thing by standards in Southern Canada, but right now we have a Hercules aircraft flying probably 20 hours a day supplying just one mine. It flies in and out, in and out, in and out with three crews. If there were two Hercules aircraft, they would both be flying 24 hours a day. I think the airstrip can handle that with improvements in the taxiways. Things can be done without major expansion.
The road system is my main concern right now because Yellowknife is a transportation hub. Our second biggest industry is just the amount of people working at the airport directly.
Senator Forrestall: I would like to ask some questions about abuse of drugs in the transportation industry. Do you have any knowledge of that? Is it a factor here in the north? I would think the use of drugs here would be more dangerous than in some other parts of Canada. Is it prevalent?
As I was coming in this morning, I saw two RCMP constables in the cafeteria. I almost stopped to ask them if they would care to come in and sit with us at the table so as to answer a question every once in a while.
Could you address the drug issue for us? I understand if you do not want to.
Mr. Lovell: I am really glad you repeated it because at first I thought you said "the use of trucks" in the territories, which would have given you an odd response.
Senator Forrestall: Well, truck drivers and drugs are a bad combination.
Mr. Lovell: In the Eastern Arctic, I think drugs are more prevalent than in the west, and it is just a matter of transportation. I am thinking of soft drugs such as marijuana and cocaine. They are easier to transport. When you have dry settlements, it is harder to smuggle alcohol when you get right down to it.
In the west, yes, I think you have to include alcohol in the whole thing.
Senator Forrestall: Yes, I do.
Mr. Lovell: I think you have to say there is a high use of alcohol. The other side of it is that it is socially unacceptable to be drinking and driving.
One thing you have to remember is that when you talk about the transportation companies here, there are very few of them. The use of independents is through these transportation companies, and they are fairly good in monitoring their drivers. They do not put up with drinking and driving because the consequences are so serious that they keep an eye on it. I have no feel for the amount of alcohol or drugs taken by truck drivers. I have heard no report of it, and it has not been brought to me as a concern.
Senator Bacon: With the devolution of airports to local airport authorities, I do not think it is the problem here in your community, but we have to make sure that steps are taken to ensure safety standards. What is your feeling about the devolution of airports?
Mr. Lovell: I grew up here, and over the course of my life I have seen community airstrips get better and better. What we have today is most definitely better than what we had 10 years ago. It is not what it was. Whether it is what it should be becomes a question.
It is an odd thing because of economics. If you talk about Nahanni Butte or Colville Lake, you are really talking about 50 people or 100 people. The question becomes how much can you spend? There should be a certain minimum standard, but there is a cut off in the whole thing.
Although there is a high turnover in pilots here, what we get are people on the way up. A young man will come here, get his hours in and move on. We really are getting the cream of the crop in many instances, not the dregs.
There was quite a bit of discussion on the CARS. In the end, I think that will be the answer -- remotely controlled safety features. However, I would hesitate to jump into that too quickly because our airstrips are so key to our survival. There are places that get one barge a year, and the rest of the time all they see are aircraft. While I think that is the way we have to go economically, I would not want to move too fast.
Senator Bacon: In terms of environmental safety, do you have a problem dealing with used oil drums or other transportation fuel containers, or wrecked automobiles and trucks, or old tires?
Mr. Lovell: In Yellowknife, yes, of course, we use the landfill, but it is not lying all over on the land because it is brought to the dump. A lot of it is crushed. A lot of it is sent south. We are big enough that there is an economy of scale whereby we can do that.
I do want to say one thing. I think there are two types of pollution, and I think too much time is spent on visual pollution. The drum is not the worry; what is in the drum is the worry.
In Yellowknife right now, no, I do not think we have that problem. Around Yellowknife, we do not have much of that problem, but I think it is, again, a matter of economics.
There was a deposit of an awful lot of those drums. It was cheap enough to bring them back to town and turn them in, and that kept the cost down for the previous 30 years or 40 years.
I do not think there are that many sites where fuel has been discarded. If someone left a drum full of gas, it would have been stolen within the first three years. I do not think we have that problem around here to a great extent.
Senator Bacon: What do you think the safety problems will be 20 years from now here in Yellowknife?
Mr. Lovell: I think this city will continue to be a transportation hub. I think we will see our city expand beyond the airport. It is already going to leapfrog to the other side. There is no land left to develop where the terminal is located.
From an airport point of view, there is nothing that we cannot manage. From a road point of view and an environmental point of view, I think we will have some real problems because there will be more and more demand for winter roads. I am referring to crossing streams and everything else. There is the danger of big fuel spills in remote locations with trucks going through the ice and all of that. If we do not upgrade and maintain the highways into Yellowknife, we will have very serious problems from the degradation of the highway system. In 20 years, I think our air transportation system will be all right; our road transportation system will be a mess.
The Deputy Chairman: There is a lot of development farther north of Yellowknife. Do you have any kind of control? I know many people get other employment down south. Then a big mine opens north of Yellowknife. In the meantime, a company or a transportation trucking company builds winter roads. Yellowknife could be flooded with people. Maybe it will be good for you because you would have more employment and more tax revenue.
How would you be able to control those people? Do you have some way of dealing with the mining companies and the big projects north of Yellowknife?
Mr. Lovell: What we are dealing with here, I think, is a cumulative impact. Companies will control their employees. I am very sure of that. They have their environmental regulations, impact agreements and everything else. They will make it a condition of hiring to control their people.
What happens when you put in a road? You open up an area for an awful lot of uncontrolled people. If you look at hunting caribou, it is not only the aboriginal, but the non-aboriginal also will be driving up that road and hunting in that area. I think the impacts will be largely from what I call casual use as much as from controlled use or company use.
Before too long, I think that we will have to look at some sort of toll road where you pay to use the road or some sort of access control for some of these areas because I do not think it is as much the big companies as the people who drive up for a Sunday drive.
The Deputy Chairman: More people use the winter roads going to Edmonton in the wintertime than use the highway.
Mr. Lovell: No, there is no winter road that would go from here to Edmonton. They would use the same highway, summer and winter. The only difference is that in the winter you drive across the Mackenzie River on the ice, and in the summer, you go across on the ferry. That is the only difference. It is the same road, summer and winter.
The Deputy Chairman: Thank your, Mr. Lovell, for your testimony today.
Mr. Lovell: Thank you very much for your time and thank you for travelling to Yellowknife.
The Deputy Chairman: Senators, our next witnesses are representatives from the Northern Air Transport Association.
Mr. Don Douglas, Executive Director, Northern Air Transport Association: Good morning. My name is Don Douglas, and I am Executive Director of the Northern Air Transport Association. On my right is Rod Wood, President of the Northern Air Transport Association. On my left is Paul Laserich, one of our directors.
I would like to thank you very much for giving the Northern Air Transport Association the opportunity to provide input to the Senate subcommittee on transportation safety. Safety is a priority with the Northern Air Transport Association and has been since the association was formed over 20 years ago.
Let me talk a bit about NATA and what we are. NATA is an independent non-profit organization incorporated in 1976 under the Societies Ordinance of the Northwest Territories and the Yukon. Its mission is to represent northern air carriers in all decision-making processes affecting transportation in Northern Canada. Our objectives are to adopt positions related to safety, uniqueness of the operating environment, economics, quality and delivery of air transportation, considering the variables and uniqueness of the northern environment. You will see that safety is at the top of our list.
We maintain current contact lists. We poll our membership as required and participate in government and industry meetings and regulatory hearings. We make submissions and liaise with government, industry, interested parties, and we lobby as necessary and offer relevant speakers to various organizations.
We have an annual meeting to address concerns of the membership. This year's annual meeting will be in this very hotel April 15-17, 1997. Our twentieth annual general meeting was in Whitehorse last April.
Our annual general meetings are always very effective. People come to these meetings with a lot of enthusiasm and put forth good programs. We always have resolutions coming out of the annual meeting. Our resolutions are well thought out and invariably get results.
The officers of our organization consist of a president -- Mr. Wood is with me today -- and 13 directors. Mr. Wood is also a director.
We have different kinds of membership. We have operator members. These operator members are actual air carriers licensed to operate north of 60 and have an operating certificate. They provide commercial air service in the Yukon or Northwest Territories.
We also have associate members, and they are very useful to the association. They include people in related industries, such as manufacturers and insurance companies. Various other people can be associate members as well.
Our executive committee consists of the president, the first vice-president, second vice-president and the secretary-treasurer. Again, the annual general meeting every April. We have directors meetings in June, September and December.
Later this week, I will be back in Yellowknife again. We have a meeting of the board of directors here in this hotel on Thursday. We are also meeting on Friday with the Government of the Northwest Territories. On Wednesday evening, we are having a reception for air carriers. Even those air carriers in the north that are not NATA members will be welcome at that reception.
NATA is an effective voice for the northern air carriers. It represents northern air carriers in a professional and, I think, effective manner. We are proud of our record and look forward to continued success in resolving challenging issues facing the north through extensive and persistent consultation using a team approach with the regulators, the stakeholders and NATA members.
I would now like to discuss a few issues that concern NATA. Some of these issues came up in the previous two presentations. If you have any questions at any time during my presentation, I will be pleased to try and answer them for you.
The first set of issues I will talk about relate to what we see as sometimes over-regulation, excessive workload, resource constraints, and insufficient delegation of regulatory authority. Isolation and travel costs for consultation, training, and other mandated requirements are a major issue. It is difficult in the north with the distances involved.
Constant change is another issue. Economic regulatory reform brought major change in the late 1980s. That was mostly positive, however, and carriers appreciate that.
In the 1990s, the National Airports Policy, ANS commercialization, Transport Canada restructuring, introduction of a whole new set of federal aviation regulations known as CARS, and dangerous goods regulations resulted in an acutely unacceptable work load for northern carriers and for regulators as well. They have been very busy handling all this work.
Major change, even when the reasons for the change are valid, creates uncertainty, doubt, frustration, and sometimes fear and anger, especially when impractical deadlines are imposed, as is frequently the case.
Transport Canada restructuring is an issue. Transport Canada reorganizations are nothing new. They occur regularly. Often the reasons for the reorganizations are not apparent to NATA.
The 1996 reorganization was a major one. Elimination of the western region came as a surprise to members. The western region had a reputation of serving the north. It came as a surprise to me, as well, since I was in charge of the western region at the time.
NATA's view is that a reorganization of that extent should have included the formation of a northern region. Our requirements in the north are different. We feel that there should be a northern region of Transport Canada. We are still of that opinion and will liaise with Transport Canada in a professional and persistent manner to achieve that goal in the long term.
In the meantime, however, we will do our part to make the system work. That is one thing about NATA -- we are very professional about the way we do business, and we will make the system work regardless.
NATA has established an excellent working relationship with Scott Broughton, regional director of Transport Canada for the prairie and northern region.I think he will need our help. That is a huge region, and it is multi-modal as well. Mr. Broughton has taken steps to provide a full range of regulatory services by staff based in Transport Canada centres north of 60. This is a very positive move. He is increasing resources in Yellowknife and Whitehorse and intends to work with the Northern Air Transport Association to determine the optimum location and quantity of regulation services personnel in the eastern Arctic. NATA members very much appreciate Mr. Broughton's interest in assisting us resolve northern issues.
I will now move on to issues that I think result from a great misunderstanding in the south and perhaps in Ottawa of the exigencies of northern aviation and a misunderstanding of the proven safe operating practices of northern air carriers. I was pleased to hear the mayor say that we have the cream of the crop in the north, and that is the opinion we have.
Misunderstanding, lack of knowledge, and, in some cases, lack of on-site examination of unique, seasonal, Arctic issues has resulted in what I call "bush pilot bashing" -- impractical and unnecessary regulations related to flight and duty times; seasonal operations, particularly in helicopter operations and Hercules operations, which were mentioned by a previous speaker; flight visibility requirements; dangerous goods; and carriage of external loads on float planes. I will talk briefly about several of these issues.
With respect to bush pilot bashing, earlier this year, some media outlets in the south were stirring up controversy and alleging that unsafe attitudes prevailed in bush operations, particularly in the north. NATA very strongly disagrees. Northerners take pride in conducting their operations in a professional and competent manner, with emphasis on safe operating practices. We do have accidents. However, when accidents occur, northerners are exceptional in their desire to learn from their own experiences and pass lessons from accidents on to other operators. They are really exceptional in this area.
I will talk about flight and duty times a bit. This issue has been particularly vexing for northern seasonal operations, particularly helicopters and, as I said, the herc operations. We have, however, developed an excellent working relationship with regulators on this issue. As recently as a week ago, Mr. Wood, our president, and I were in discussion with regulators in Ottawa, and we feel we are making headway.
One of the problems is that the fatigue studies that have been done to this point have been limited strictly to major airline operations, which are totally different from seasonal Arctic helicopter operations. We need specific research done on seasonal operations.
As an example, we have some operations in the north where pilots come north to fly for four months. They are on contract and paid so much by the day whether they fly or not, so there is no incentive to fly extra hours. However, they come up there motivated to fly.
Nowadays, camp conditions are generally good. I flew for Spartan Air Services many years ago. Camp conditions were not quite as good back then. Even then, if you had a good cook and a good camp, life was easy and you were motivated to fly.
Last week I spoke to a group of civil aviation medical examiners in Vancouver, and they agreed that these conditions are totally different and that we need to do research in the north on fatigue and work with the regulators to develop flight and duty times which do address these northern needs.
Senator St. Germain: As someone who flies, I am interested in these fatigue differences that you say exist between commercial operations in the south and helicopter pilots or float plane operators up here. Perhaps you could elaborate on how you see the difference. If you are flying for 12 or 14 hours, whether you are flying in a 747, a Dakota or a Cessna 185 on the southern coast, I would like your explanation as to how you see the difference.
Mr. Douglas: One of our members, as an example, sends their pilots out with their family in the summer. They live beside the helicopter. When the weather is good, the pilot goes flying. It is a stress-free life. There are good conditions in the summer. There is lots of sunlight, which is good for morale. You are not flying in the dark in bad weather, usually. You are not bored.
I think a major airline problem is flying on autopilot to Hong Kong, Sidney or Tokyo. It is a totally different situation. Boredom tends to make you tired.
Another difference would be living in a major city and flying for an airline. Many pilots who fly for major airlines in the Toronto area may live in Orangeville, for example, drive to Toronto, fly to Tokyo and then fly back. It is a different life.
From the point of view of stress, in many cases it is a lot easier flying in the north when you are sitting right beside the machine. We are not asking for excessive hours, but we would like to be able to fly at least 12 hours a day. I think it is quite feasible to fly 12 hours a day in those circumstances.
Senator St. Germain: The present AIP regulations are 8 hours.
Mr. Douglas: The present regulations give us difficulty in the monthly total. They have reduced the monthly total to 150 hours. We would like that extended to 180. We will do some research on that to see if it can be done safely. If it cannot, we will not go for it. However, we feel that it can be done safely.
Senator Forrestall: I hope you will deal with the abuse of substances such as drugs, alcohol and tobacco and whether they are factors up here.
Coming back to the study that has to be done, I must confess that I have an axe to grind in these hearings. The Aeronautics Act was written back in the 1920s or 1930s. This is the mid-1990s. Is it time to have a new national Aeronautics Act?
Mr. Douglas: Certainly. We want up-to-date, sensible regulations.
Senator Forrestall: I am asking you indirectly to tell me if we have gone far enough with a regulatory oversight as opposed to a statutory oversight. Should we have a codification of all the regulations? Indeed, an awful lot of them could be snipped up and put in the burner and destroyed.
Mr. Douglas: Absolutely.
Senator Forrestall: Should we start all over again with a new act that recognizes some of the variance you are talking about? Do you know what I am getting at?
Mr. Douglas: I do know what you are getting at. I agree with your point. I was going to cover that later in my presentation.
We feel that Transport Canada should be in a monitoring role, and we agree with that monitoring role. They should monitor operations, but they should get out of many of the daily checks they do and delegate that to competent companies. They should delegate regulatory authority, such as doing check rides and this sort of thing, and come in and do spot checks on us. That would not be a problem.
Senator Forrestall: Including certifications?
Mr. Douglas: Right. In order to look at the differences in the north, we want human factor specialists to be involved in this study. We want pilots to be involved in this study, and we want operators to be involved in it so that we can develop these regulations.
Many of the regulators have recognized our differences. I must say, some of them have been very good. The trouble is that they go south. Associations with more resources than we have lobby harder than we do. Airline pilots in particular want the hours reduced, and it has come to the point where our northern operations are hardly viable. That is all we are asking for, and that is the point. We need regulations that recognize the northern requirements.
When there is consultation on these regulations, it should only be with people who are involved in the north and not with pilots who are flying to Hong Kong. It is a different situation. They have their concerns, which we would not interfere with, but our concerns are very unique in the north.
Senator St. Germain: Are you speaking mainly about helicopters, sir?
Mr. Douglas: Helicopters are the biggest issue. It is also about fixed wing aircraft and, as I say, the herc operation because they go off to an isolated area. If we followed the rules, you would have to send the guy home on the seventh day to rest him up and zero out his time, which is totally impractical. That is a very important issue.
The carriage of dangerous goods is another one. As they stand now, the carriage of dangerous goods regulations are not practical for operators using small helicopters or fixed wing aircraft.
Most small, northern carriers haul a very limited variety of dangerous goods, typically fuel in drums, propane, some explosives, batteries and a few consumer commodities.
In the case of charters, only the passengers, if any, are connected with that cargo, and that cargo is connected with moving a camp in or out. Only the passenger on board is associated with those dangerous goods which are needed in the camp. Much of this cargo is in a sling underneath the helicopter, and if there is a problem, it can be pickled.
Senator Forrestall: Under the act, that really cannot happen, can it?
Mr. Douglas: Not right now, no. They are totally impractical.
I had a discussion with a dangerous goods person in Edmonton before I came up here. I think they finally recognize this and will make some changes, but that has to be changed. If you are a non-interlining small carrier moving camps in and out, you have to carry propane stoves; you have to carry fuel. We want to be legal, but there is no way we can do the job and be legal with some of these regulations. As I said, there is no history of a problem with us carrying dangerous goods in the north.
As they stand, the regulations are complex and largely irrelevant to remote, northern, non-interlining air carriers. That is the thing. The regulations and training requirements must be simplified and made to be relevant. We are working on this. We will work with Scott Broughton and we will work with headquarters to achieve that.
We would certainly like you to highlight that. We want to be safe and we want to be legal. We are very professional about the way we conduct our business.
Senator Forrestall: How do you haul dynamite?
Mr. Paul Laserich, Director, Northern Air Transportation Association: You have to make two trips, one with the blasting caps and the other one with the dynamite.
Mr. Douglas: That makes it difficult for the carrier.
I want to talk about regulatory services fees. Aviation-related activities in the north are on an upswing. Prosperity is needed to make up for a number of slow years. We have had some really bad years in the north where northern operators have had a difficult struggle to remain viable. Prosperity will be short-lived, however, unless the NATA is successful in getting proposed regulatory service fees reduced substantially.
Again, the NATA has been successful in this. I just showed Mr. Wood a letter that I received before I came up here related to a meeting I attended in Ottawa about these fees. We have had some success, but there is much work to be done. These fees do not just affect northerners, but they have a significant impact on us.
When I was at one meeting in Ottawa, these regulatory services fees for certification of products and whatnot were so extreme that a company called Diamond Aircraft in London, Ontario, said that if these fees are implemented as they stand, they are out of here. They are turning out one aircraft a day, and the airplanes sell for $140,000 each. They are not out of here yet because we have had an impact on these fees. They will be re-examined and looked at more thoroughly.
Senator St. Germain: Are these airworthiness fees?
Mr. Douglas: These are for the certification of products, for pilot licences. Some of the fees, they say, are to cover the cost of the Aeronautical Information Publication, which you are familiar with. Now, if that is what it is for, why do they not charge for the book? When you go for a medical, they tack a fee on there. We do not know where these fees are coming from. We want to pay our way, but we want to know what these fees are for.
I do not know why they put this AIP out free. They say it is a safety book. I think that is why they do not charge for it. Because it is free, people who do not need it get it, and they throw it in the corner. They do not amend it, and there is a lot of money wasted on producing books that nobody looks at. If you put a nominal fee on the book, say $15, $20 or whatever it costs, then people who want the book will be the only ones who get it, and they will keep it up to date. Put the fees where they are supposed to be.
Large manufacturers like Pratt & Whitney and Diamond Aircraft have said the same thing. "We will pay our way, but you better cost account your figures. Tell us exactly what we are paying for, and we will pay."
I want to talk about search and rescue briefly. It is not a big issue. NATA was made aware earlier this year of what appeared to be the inadequate use of civilian resources in a search. There are probably a lot of reasons for this. Again, it is related probably to government downsizing and changes and reorganization. The RCC was moved out of Namao, and the closest RCC for this area is in Trenton, which is a long ways away.
When the RCC was in Edmonton, there was a tremendous liaison between the civilian searchers in Alberta -- the CASARA and the CARES -- and the military. The civilian resources were used very effectively at that time. I think that has fallen down a bit.
In this particular case, we had NATA members sitting there who were very knowledgeable about the north, very knowledgeable about northern flyers, and very knowledgeable about where they might have looked for this pilot. They were not adequately used. I do not want to blame anyone for this. I think it is just a matter of circumstance. The NATA will work with the military and with the CASARA organization to try and fix any holes that may have existed there.
I have one more item to talk about, and that is a study called Safety of Air Taxi Operations Task Force. This is a task force that Transport Canada initiated to look into safety in the air taxi business. That is small airplanes with nine or less passengers.
Initially, when they proposed this study, it appeared that it was going to be a rushed study. That was not acceptable to the NATA because we really want to look into the issues and determine what the issues are. We always want to improve safety. We had them amend the terms of reference, and we are actually willing participants in this study now. Mr. Wood is a member for the central Arctic. We have Bob Cameron from Transnorth Helicopters. He is a representative from the Western Arctic. We have Pat Doyle from First Air who is representing NATA for the Eastern Arctic. We are very interested in finding ways to improve safety. We know the safety status is good, but we want to improve it wherever we can.
We face numerous challenges, but NATA members meet these challenges effectively, and safety is continually stressed.
A number of years ago, NATA initiated, through a resolution, the Company Aviation Safety Officer Program, which was so effective in the north that southerners bought it. It spread all across the country, and Company Aviation Safety Officer Programs are very effectively used throughout the country. A NATA initiative started it.
With our involvement in the air taxi safety study, our interest in safety is continuing. We are proud of our excellent safety record, and the excellent record we have is a reflection of a high level of professionalism, good operating practices, and emphasis on human factors. We will continue to be vigilant and strive to improve safety practices at every opportunity.
Thank you very much for your interest and for having us here. If you need any data from me, please get in touch with me and I will send you the data.
Mr. Laserich: Senator Adams, I have known you for about 15 years. I know many people would like to ask some questions, and sometimes I do not like it when we are rushed. Other people have come a long way to be here.
I have known you all my life, senator, and I think it is very fitting when you hear from the NATA.
The Deputy Chairman: We would like to keep you all day, but we have arranged next door for lunch.
Senator Bacon: I have a quick question. We met with the Assistant Deputy Minister of Transport Canada who appeared before the committee, and he told us that a study had been launched a few months ago which focuses on the safety of air taxi operations.
Mr. Douglas: That is the one.
Senator Bacon: Have you been consulted on this study, or are you working with them?
Mr. Douglas: Yes, I have been to meetings in Ottawa. Pat Doyle has been to meetings in Ottawa. We helped them draft terms of reference that are acceptable to the NATA, and we are very happy with the terms of reference now. We are having town hall meetings throughout the north. As I say, Mr. Wood is one of the members on that task force. We are looking forward to good results.
Previously, they wanted the study finished by December 31. Now it is to be finished by March 31 because we want it done right. That is an important task force, and we are full participants in it.
Senator St. Germain: Mr. Chairman, is there any way that we can access these people? I would like to ask them about flight service stations, weather stations, and all of this.
Mr. Douglas: I can give you a card.
Senator St. Germain: I would like to ask you about CARS and AWOS.
Mr. Douglas: I would love to talk about those subjects too.
Mr. Laserich: We can tell you all kinds of exciting stories about CARS where people are off hunting, you have a medivac, and you have to get in and get the nurse to get the weather.
Senator St. Germain: Mr. Chairman, it is your call. I will let you decide as to how to best end it, sir.
Senator Forrestall: I do not know, Mr. Chairman, what great calamity would befall us. I have seen the Legislative Assembly. I would sooner sit here for an extra hour later on this afternoon before we have to leave. I want to get into the issue of drug abuse and this question of regulatory regime.
The Deputy Chairman: We can always come back after lunch. I would like to ask a few questions too.
You mentioned the number of hours spent flying in the summer. I would like to get into that a little bit. Down south, most of the time, I am tired, and when I come back here, I do not feel sleepy. I believe what you are saying is that the climate up here is different and therefore there should be different regulations.
Mr. Douglas: It certainly is different. We certainly would like to talk to you about that. I will leave a card with anyone who wants a card. Get in touch with me. I am the executive director. I can get in touch with any of the other directors. Rod Wood operates a large fleet of helicopters. Paul Laserich operates medivacs and other airplanes.
Senator Forrestall: You made a couple of very startling suggestions, and I want to pursue them. You suggested that the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act is totally inadequate and impractical. What has to be done?
Mr. Douglas: We consider it is impractical for the small, non-interlining carrier. The rules are very difficult to understand. Even the enforcers have trouble understanding the rules the way they are written.
Senator Forrestall: You are not suggesting that you be exempted.
Mr. Douglas: I will let the president answer that question.
Mr. Ron Wood, President, Northern Air Transport Association: The reality of the dangerous goods legislation is geared towards airlines, passenger aircraft travelling great distances, and to ban certain articles from those aircraft. It makes sense, but let us talk about moving a prospector, for instance. The prospector who discovered the BHP diamond mine could not have got there under the dangerous goods regulations because I would not have been able to take him out with his stove under the regulations.
I do not totally understand the regulations. They are geared towards airlines. If I take you out into the barren lands and drop you off without the necessary tools to survive, I am not a responsible person. Under these regulations, "strike anywhere" matches are banned completely; insect repellent is banned. There are all sorts of these things. What we need is a regulation geared towards non-interlining. In other words, you get on the aircraft with your gear, and I take it to a specific location and drop it off. You are fully aware of what is on board. I, as the pilot, am aware. I am not transferring these goods to another airline where they could inadvertently be loaded without the pilot's knowledge. This is specific, point-to-point transportation for helicopters, float operators, and non-interlining operations. We have been asking for that since inception.
Senator Forrestall: I actually thought I did a fair piece of work when we were putting together the legislation. I am responsible.
Mr. Wood: Sorry to disappoint you.
Senator Forrestall: I would not blame the people who have to sit down with you and do the details, but let me assure you that they were asked questions as to the degree to which these regulations would impact not only on rail and trucking, but in the air and marine modes as well. We were assured that there had been the fullest of consultation.
When was the last formal contact you had with the department about this difficulty? What was the nature of the contact and what was the nature of the response?
Mr. Douglas: I guess the last contact I had was last Friday in Edmonton talking with the dangerous goods person for the prairie and northern region. Prior to that, we brought up the subject of dangerous goods at annual general meetings. I know one of our directors, our past president, said that he had a recent discussion with Scott Broughton, the Director General of Transport Canada, Prairie and Northern Region. He said that Scott Broughton was quite receptive to the concerns he approached him with.
I know there was a lot of consultation. It is probably partly our fault. We are a small organization with limited resources. It is difficult to travel long distances to attend all of the consultative meetings.
Senator Forrestall: But 98 per cent of your segment of the industry falls under their regime, so while you may be small, you were it. We did not aim this at some mythical aviation developing over on the Kola Peninsula. This was geared at Canadians.
Mr. Douglas: We are just asking for a change for the small operators, non-interlining, and I think the regulators recognize that now. With your support, I am sure we can make progress on this issue.
Senator Forrestall: Did you ask them for legislative change or regulatory change?
Mr. Douglas: Exemptions.
Senator Forrestall: Exemptions from the regulations or exceptions from the act?
Mr. Douglas: Exemptions from the regulations.
Senator Forrestall: Would that be good enough as opposed to an amendment to the act?
Mr. Douglas: I think that would be good enough.
Senator Forrestall: Someone could come along very zealously and reimpose it if it was a regulation.
Mr. Douglas: Right.
Senator St. Germain: What role does CARS play up here, from your perspective?
Mr. Douglas: CARS plays a very important role up here, and they continue to play an important role. The territorial government looks at the CARS. We look after consultation with the carriers with respect to hours of operation, and we liaise very closely with the Government of the Northwest Territories in determining the hours of operation of CARS.
Senator St. Germain: Have they shut down any of your weather information offices up here as they have in British Columbia and other places?
Mr. Douglas: There have been some closures. There is not to be any more introduction of AWOS until NATA and northern carriers are satisfied that AWOS meets our needs. They are working hard on AWOS and have made a lot of improvements, but there are to be no more AWOS-only sites in the north until we are satisfied that they meet various requirements.
Senator St. Germain: How many AWOS sites are up here? Do you know offhand? Is it a fair question?
Mr. Douglas: Something in the order of six to ten.
Senator St. Germain: Decisions are often made down there. It does not matter who is in government.
Mr. Douglas: We certainly have had problems with AWOS. We want AWOS to be fixed because we feel that AWOS will be necessary in a number of areas to help the forecasters. AWOS can probably play a role in many of the parameters.
Senator St. Germain: Is there a level of confidence on the pilot's part? Personally, I still phone ahead and continue to do that, if it is possible.
Mr. Douglas: I do not think pilots have much confidence in AWOS, and it will take a long time to demonstrate that it is acceptable. Certainly when you are going into an isolated place, you like to have someone on the ground to tell you what the weather is like. That is the case.
We have had good relationships with NAV CANADA, and NAV CANADA has promised NATA that there will be no change in the level of service in the north without full consultation with NATA and full consultation with the territorial governments.
Senator St. Germain: I do not know whether you concur with this statement, but most of your accidents, 80 per cent, are contributed to human failings and an awful high percentage of them are weather-oriented.
Mr. Douglas: Exactly. Certainly 80 per cent of accidents are caused by human factors. Human factors and weather are the main contributors to accidents.
The NATA is very much involved in human factors training. It is hard to do this training in the north. It is hard to put on a course where our small operators can get to the course because they are a husband and wife team, sometimes, with one pilot. Sometimes the husband is the president, vice-president of operations, chief pilot, and the whole company practically.
We are trying to develop in NATA some sort of a travelling human factors road show that can go around to some of the relatively isolated places to do this training. Northern operators are very aware of human factors and anxious to get the training.
We have had courses in the north. System Safety and Transport Canada is very helpful, as well, in putting on human factors training courses.
Senator St. Germain: What percentage of your membership are the nine-passenger-and-under air taxis?
Mr. Douglas: An awful lot. I think it is around 80 per cent. They are mostly small operators.
First Air is big, as are Canadian North and Ptarmigan.
Mr. Laserich: There are three large companies. That is it. The rest are all little guys.
Mr. Douglas: You can get in touch with NATA, and we can answer questions later by mail.
The Deputy Chairman: Thank you.
The committee recessed.