Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Transport and
Communications
Issue 18 - Minutes of Proceedings
OTTAWA, Tuesday, May 12, 1998
(20)
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications met this day at 6:00 p.m. this day in Room 256-S, the Chairman, the Honourable Senator Bacon, presiding.
Members of the committee present: Adams, Bacon, Bryden, Buchanan, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Johnson, Perrault, Poulin, Roberge and Spivak (12).
Other senators present: The Honourable Senators Pépin and Maheu (2).
In attendance: Martin Brennan, Special Advisor to the Committee
Also in attendance: The official reporters of the Senate
Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted by the Senate on March 26,1998, the committee continued its consideration of Bill C-9, for making the system of Canadian ports competitive, efficient and commercially oriented, providing for the establishing of port authorities and the divesting of certain harbours and ports, for the commercialization of the St. Lawrence Seaway and ferry services and other matters related to maritime trade and transport and amending the Pilotage Act and amending and repealing other Acts as a consequence. (See Issue No. 11, Thursday, April 2, 1998 for full text of Order of Reference.)
WITNESSES:
From Transport Canada:
Mr. Louis Ranger, Assistant Deputy Minister for Policy;
Mr. Randy Morriss, Director General, Ports Programs and Divestiture;
Mr. Bruce Bowie, Executive Director, Marine Reform;
Mr. Barrie LePitre, General Counsel, Legal Services.
It was agreed -- That the committee complete clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-9.
It was agreed -- That clause 1 be stood.
It was agreed -- That clauses 2 and 3 carry, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Forrestall -- That Bill C-9 be amended, in clause 4, on page 3, by replacing lines 27 to 30 with the following:
"(c) ensure that marine transportation services are organized, and that real property within the limits of a port is administered, so as to satisfy the needs of users, to provide accessibility and equitable treatment, and to be available at a reasonable cost to the users.".
The officials from Transport Canada were called to the table and answered questions.
After debate on the amendment, the question being put on the motion, it was negatived, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Forrestall -- That Bill C-9 be amended, in clause 4,
(a) on page 3, by adding immediately after line 26 the following:
"(c) promote marine transportation as a key to regional economic development;";
(b) on page 4, by replacing line 3 with the following:
"facilities and for the protection of the economy of areas in which ports are disposed of; and"; and
(c) on pages 3 and 4, by re-numbering paragraphs (c) to (h) as paragraphs (d) to (j) and any cross-references thereto accordingly.
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 4 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clauses 5 to 7 carry, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Roberge -- That Bill C-9 be amended, in clause 8, on page 6,
(a) by replacing line 4 with the following:
"(f) the number of directors, between five";
(b) by replacing lines 18 to 22 with the following:
"(iv) the remaining individuals appointed by the chair of a committee of users established by the Minister for the purpose, the members of which committee have been selected and appointed by the Minister to represent the classes of users mentioned in the letters patent;" and
(c) by replacing line 26 with the following:
"(h) the charge on the net revenues of the".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 8 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clauses 9 to 11 carry, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Roberge -- That Bill C-9 be amended on page 12, by adding after line 20 the following:
" 12.1 (1) A lease referred to in paragraph 12(3)(a), in respect of land within the limits of a port, remains in force on the coming into force of this section.
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a lessee may, within six months following the coming into force of this section, apply to the Agency for a determination as to whether the lease is consistent with the objectives set out in section 4 of the Act and whether the rent charged is fair.
(3) The Agency shall consider any complaint made by a lessee pursuant to subsection (2) without delay, and the port authority shall comply with any order, decision or direction issued to it by the Agency.".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 12 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clause 13 carry, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Roberge -- That Bill C-9 be amended in clause 14, on page 13, by replacing lines 5 to 9 with the following:
"(d) the elected chair of a committee of users established by the Minister for the purpose, the members of which committee have been selected and appointed by the Minister to represent the classes of users mentioned in the letters patent, appoints the remaining individuals at the direction of the committee.".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 14 carry, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
It was agreed -- That clause 15 carry, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Forrestall -- That Bill C-9 be amended in clause 16, on page 14, by replacing line 11 with the following:
"(c) a member of Parliament or".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 16 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clause 17 to 61, carry, on the following division :
YEAS
The Honourable Senators -- Les honorables sénateurs
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Forrestall -- That Bill C-9 be amended, in clause 62, on page 40
(a) by replacing line 32 with the following:
"danger or hazard to life or property;"; and
(b) by replacing line 35 with the following:
"under the management of the port authority; and
(i) the measures available to the Minister to assist in cases where port authorities suffer from economic hardship.".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators -- Les honorables sénateurs
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin - 6
It was agreed -- That clause 62 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clauses 63 to 71 carry , on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Roberge -- That Bill C-9 be amended on page 46, by adding after line 39 the following:
" 72.1 The Minister shall take no action under sections 70, 71 and 72 until such time as an economic impact study of the proposed action by the federal government has been completed and the port has been upgraded to commercial standards at the expense of the federal government.".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak - 5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin - 6
It was agreed -- That clause 72 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clauses 73 to 139 carry, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Forrestall -- That Bill C-9 be amended in clause 140, on page 82, by replacing line 6 with the following:
"140. (1) The Minister, after consulting with each municipality and province to be affected, may enter into".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Roberge--3
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 140 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clauses 140 to 204 carry, on division.
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Spivak -- That Bill C-9 be amended in clause 205, on page 101, by adding the following after line 17:
"(3) Sections 47, 73 and 101 shall not come into force until regulations have been made under paragraphs 59(j) and (k) of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act.".
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was moved by the Honourable Senator Johnson -- That Bill C-9 be amended in clause 205, on page 101
(a) by adding the following after line 9:
"(2) Part 2 of this Act shall not come into force earlier than the day that is four weeks after the day that a report on its financial impact is presented to the Senate by the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications."; and
(b) by renumbering subsection (2) as subsection (3).
After debate on the amendment, it was negatived, on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Buchanan, Forestall, Johnson, Roberge, Spivak--5
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Bryden, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Perrault, Poulin--6
It was agreed -- That clause 205 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That clause 1 carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That the preamble carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That the Title carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That Bill C-9, carry, on division.
It was agreed -- That the following observations be added to the report:
The Senate Committee on Transport and Communications heard over 30 witnesses in the course of its hearings on Bill C-9. It had two meetings with the Minister of Transport, one at the beginning of its deliberations, the other at their conclusion.
Witnesses came from all across Canada and represented a wide variety of marine interests. Many were supportive of the bill, but a significant number were concerned about what the bill might mean to them, or more significantly, what it might mean to their communities. In his second appearance before the committee, the Minister of Transport did much to alleviate these concerns, but the committee was still left with some degree of unease. This leads us to make some comments to the Minister, which we trust he will accept and implement.
Our greatest concern is for the future of small ports in small communities. We heard from some people who were very concerned about the impact of divestiture on the ports in their communities, people who saw divestiture as catastrophic, and offering no hope as a means of attracting the sort of investment they needed for survival. Others argued the need for another regime for ports, something in between a CPA and a local/regional port, a regime more appropriate to ports essential to their region's economy still developing and still needing financial support from government.
Therefore the committee recommends that the Minister be prepared, on a case-by-case basis, to recognize that certain local/regional ports are essential to the economy of their regions or to the future development of their regions, and:
D that such ports will not be divested until the Minister is satisfied that their facilities have been brought to appropriate operating standards for such a port;
D that if the $125 million Port Divestiture Fund is not sufficient to facilitate the transfer of such ports, the Minister will seek necessary additional funding;
D that the Minister may provide other funding for projects deemed necessary for the future operational success of such ports;
D that the Minister will continue to maintain and operate such ports until he is satisfied a viable local entity is in place; and
D that the Minister provide for the reversion of such ports to him if the local entity fails to continue such port as a viable operation in the region.(null)
There were also concerns of a financial nature. Many ports or port communities are worried about the additional financial obligations which they face as Canada Port Authorities under C-9. These range from new expenditures for grants in lieu of taxes, the requirement to pay dividends based on gross revenues, the inability to have access to government funding, to the inability to pledge land as security for loans. Some saw these additional obligations posing a real threat to their ability to raise capital for future projects, others saw them as a threat to their ongoing financial viability.
The committee notes that a review of this legislation is required under section 144, to be carried out during the fifth year that the act is in effect. Indeed the minister made much of this review in his remarks to us, pointing out that it would offer an opportunity to put right any unforeseen problems that might arise in the next few years.
We ask that the process of review of this act not wait for the formal process in four years time. We ask that it begin now for the smaller ports, with ongoing assessments of the economic health of communities where ports have been closed or divestiture has taken place. We would like to see the results of such assessments incorporated into the Minister's annual report on divestitures, called for under section 72(7) of the bill along with comments each year on the adequacy of the divestiture fund at that particular time. For the ports which become CPAs, we recommend that the Minister look carefully for any adverse financial impact that this bill might bring, right from the start of a port gaining CPA status. We also ask that the issue of user input to the boards of CPAs be carefully monitored to see whether the process now proposed will work satisfactorily.
The committee is left with some concerns that the degree of environmental protection afforded for works within ports and the Seaway under bill C-9 could be diminished if regulations to be developed under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act are not completed thoroughly and promptly. The committee asks that the Minister of the Environment ensures that when the Canada Ports Authorities do come into existence, that the full force of federal environmental protection is in place, with a minimum of no deterioration over the situation which exists today.
It was agreed -- That Bill C-9 be reported to the Senate without amendment, but with observations.
At 8:30 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair.
ATTEST:
Michel Patrice
Clerk of the Committee