Proceedings of the Subcommittee on
Veterans Affairs
Issue 8 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 11, 1998
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology met this day at 3:16 p.m. to continue its study of all matters relating to the future of the Canadian War Museum, including, but not restricted to, its structure, budget, name, and independence.
Senator Orville H. Phillips (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, we have a quorum.
Appearing before us today is the Honourable Sheila Copps, Minister of Canadian Heritage. This is the first time Ms Copps has appeared before the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. We welcome you. We would you ask you to make a short statement and then leave time for questioning by the senators.
The Honourable Sheila Copps, M.P., P.C., Minister of Canadian Heritage: Honourable senators, I shall be brief. I wish to thank the members of the subcommittee. Our senators have been champions in preserving, protecting and paying reverence to our heritage and in reaching out to our veterans. Also, I wish to thank you for providing a wide and fair hearing to everyone concerned.
Throughout the process initiated by your subcommittee, I hope you will provide the guidance which will allow us to move forward to consensus. I also wish to thank you for shining the spotlight on the heritage of this nation and our proud military heritage which can never receive too much consideration. The stories of veterans and the stories of Holocaust survivors are the most powerful stories of the modern era.
[Translation]
Our country is proud of the heroism and sacrifices of our Canadian soldiers. The sufferings brought about by the Holocaust have left an indelible mark on humanity. These two issues must be treated with respect and understanding.
[English]
Mutual respect is the foundation of Canada and of the approach we are taking on this issue. The whole nature of Canada can be defined as deriving consensus from diversity. We need to build bridges from the past to the future and to build bridges amongst Canadians.
As we seek consensus, the questions we must ask ourselves are: How do we take a longer-term approach? How can we help young Canadians understand our military history? How can we help all Canadians understand the importance of the Holocaust?
[Translation]
Our veterans and the volunteers at the War Museum serve as ambassadors for this institution as well as for our country. Canadians have to be told that regardless of the decision reached, the War Museum belongs to them, not to the politicians and bureaucrats. I look forward to the counsel of the Senate on issues of such importance as the authenticity and the representational, educational and commemorative nature of this institution.
I realize full well that ministers must respect the fact that national museums operate independently. I would not presume to say how history should be interpreted or to revise it.
Having said this, I am honored to be responsible to Canadians for the strategic orientations of our museums. I will do everything I can to achieve a consensus with you on this issue.
[English]
It is important that everyone's interests be represented and that everyone be heard in this debate. In order to reach out even more, the government recently appointed the Honourable Barney Danson to the board of the Canadian Museum of Civilization where he will sit as the chair of the advisory board to the War Museum.
I am open to hearing ideas and careful thought about the role of veterans in guiding the War Museum; the contribution of aboriginal service people to World War II; the best way to expand the museum; the need to get more display space for our artefacts and the roles of all veterans; the relationship between the War Museum and the Canadian Museum of Civilization; how we can find the appropriate means of marking the role of Canadian soldiers in modern-day conflict; whether we need a more formalized advisory structure; how we link the War Museum more effectively with other military museums, such as about the War Plane Heritage Museum in my own community of Hamilton; who could be the responsible minister; and what would be the role of the chair of the advisory committee.
I wish to be very clear, honourable senators, that I do not have all the answers but I do have an open mind.
[Translation]
I look forward very much to working with you and with my colleague, Chuck Gruchy, Director General, Heritage. We will draw on the wisdom of the witnesses who have come before you and look to the efforts of the museum's volunteers and dedicated staff to find answers that we can be proud of and that will honor our past.
I hope that we can work together to find these answers and to help Canadians understand the context of the times and what heroes were made of, the sacrifices they endured and the historic events that forged our identity and brought about a victory for freedom and democracy.
[English]
I am confident that with your wisdom, Senator Phillips, and that of your committee and of concerned Canadians, we can move beyond a difficult moment and a serious problem to show respect for our heritage and for one another, both of which are cornerstones of our nation.
Senator Jessiman: Madam Minister, thank you very much for appearing before the committee. I should like the record to show that, prior to December 21, 1967, the Canadian War Museum had its own board of trustees. On December 21, 1967, the National Museums Act was given Royal Assent on that day. That act created the National Museums Corporation and its board of trustees, designating the Canadian War Museum board as the Canadian War Museum consultative committee.
In 1990, an act of Parliament established the corporation which would be called the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation, a corporation with which you are very familiar and for which you are responsible. That act says that the Canadian Museum of Civilization shall include the Canadian War Museum and that is no surprise to you.
The museum board members appointed at that time included two members who had been directly connected with the military. That 1990 board met and passed this resolution:
Considering that the Canadian Museum of Civilization is an affiliated museum of the Canadian Museum of Civilization and has programs and activity distinct from the latter; considering that the Director of the Canadian Museum of Civilization would benefit from advice on issues specific to the Canadian War Museum; considering that such advice would appropriately be given to it by a consultative committee; and considering that there was a Canadian War Museum consultative committee in existence prior to July 1, 1990; and considering that section 22 of the Museums Act allows for the board of trustees to pass the present resolution, it is resolved that the Board of Trustees of the Canadian Museum of Civilization confirms the former Canadian War Museum Consultative Committee which will function according to its established terms of reference until it is otherwise decided by the Board.
That would seem to be a reasonable resolution for a board like this to pass, would you not agree?
Ms Copps: Absolutely.
Senator Jessiman: I would agree as well.
After your government took over, but before you were appointed the relevant minister, the terms of the two board members with military experience expired or ended for whatever reason. Your government chose not to appoint any members to the board who had military experience. Why would that be the case?
Ms Copps: I believe we have rectified that. That is why I recommended the appointment of the honourable Barney Danson.
Senator Jessiman: You have re-appointed someone now. Since approximately 1995, that is at least three years ago, the board was without that input. Your answer to us is that it happened for whatever reason. You do not have any reasons for not wanting military people on the board or why you chose not to appoint them?
Ms Copps: You pointed out that I was not responsible for making the recommendations. When it became clear to me from informal discussions that I had with members of the veterans' community -- being a member Branch 58 of the Royal Canadian Legion in Hamilton -- I felt that the War Museum should be more directly represented on the board and that is why I made the recommendation.
As you know, in the process of appointments, people come in, they stay on for some time and they retire. Since I have been the Minister for Canadian Heritage we have not had a large number of people retiring, so it takes some time.
Senator Jessiman: In order to assist, in my research I discovered that the first person with military experience to retire did so in June of 1994, and the next person of similar qualifications retired in June of 1995.
Ms Copps: That just clarified my point. When I came into the job I was approached by a number of veterans who were concerned about some of the consultation that should have gone on that did not. That is why we have attempted to rectify it. I do not think one person rectifies it.
I will underscore another thing, senator, that when you talk about the appointments to all of these boards, all of the people who agree to serve their country by these Order-in-Council appointments are not remunerated. They do it because they love their country and they wish to make a contribution. Obviously we try to obtain the best balance of good people. I did identify a weakness on the full board with not having a representative and that is why we decided to recommend the honourable Barnett Danson and it takes some time for these processes to go through.
That is not to disparage any of the other people who have been named to the board because sometimes when you are building a board you try to provide a broad spectrum and somebody may be missed. In this case, there was a shortcoming.
Senator Jessiman: Madam Minister, since there will be another appointment which will be coming up later in this year, might we expect another military person to be appointed to that board?
Ms Copps: We should look at the whole structural issues more broadly. I do not think it is necessarily an appointment which designates the direction. There has been some concern expressed about the relationship of the Canadian War Museum with the Canadian Museum of Civilization and the Honourable Barney Danson has full scope to address that issue more broadly. We are hoping that what recommendations they come back with will be able to be incorporated into a future plan.
Senator Jessiman: As the minister responsible in 1995, when Ms Adrienne Clarkson was appointed as chairperson, do you know if the government knew at that time that there was consideration being given to abolishing the advisory committee that had been in existence since 1967?
Ms Copps: I have no knowledge of that.
Senator Jessiman: You did not know of that?
Ms Copps: I have no knowledge of that. You are teaching me things today.
Senator Jessiman: I would like you to know that, that that was abolished. Not only did your government not have members on the board with military experience, for whatever reason the persons that were chosen decided in their wisdom to abolish something that had been in existence for in excess of 25 or 30 years. If that had not been done, perhaps we would not be here today.
Turning to the issue of your release. I know you did not prepare it but I am sure you have read it.
Ms Copps: Which release? I have put out a few releases, I am not sure to which you refer.
Senator Jessiman: I am talking about the release in which you referred to Barney Danson. I will read part of it, if I may.
The Minister of Canadian Heritage, Sheila Copps, announced today that the Honourable Barnett J. Danson has been appointed to the board of the Canadian Museum of Civilization.
That you could do and we thank you for it.
Minister Copps goes on and says that:
One of Mr. Danson's key roles will be to chair the advisory committee of the Canadian War Museum and to counsel on all matters related to the Canadian War Museum.
First, how can you say that he will be appointed to that position?
Ms Copps: If you refer to the terms of reference of the Museums Act that you were referring to in 1990, it says that ministers are responsible for broad strategic directions. I am involving myself in discussions with the board to ensure that we have a broad strategic direction under the guidance of Mr. Danson.
Senator Jessiman: Are you saying then that you spoke with someone?
Ms Copps: Of course.
Senator Jessiman: Can you tell us to whom you spoke?
Ms Copps: I spoke to Mr. Danson.
Senator Jessiman: He does not have any power to appoint himself. I am not trying to trick you. Madam Minister, he is not appointed. He has not been appointed. Although we were told previously that it had not been organized earlier because we did not have a military person on the board, the committee actually had, by teleconference in a meeting of the board on December 4, ten members being present out of eleven, after an announcement had been made by the chairperson on November 28 that there would be such a committee. They did set up this committee. They committee, with the exception of one person, were all in-house people, who worked for the Canadian Museum of Civilization. They still have not had a committee meeting to appoint Mr. Danson to be the chair. They have not actually appointed the other members yet.
Ms Copps: That is because the board only meets four times a year and their next scheduled meeting is coming up in the next few days.
Senator Jessiman: Your hope then, Ms Copps, is that with Mr. Danson, and the advisory committee will have some influence on that board that will be sympathetic to the veterans?
Ms Copps: I have every confidence that Mr. Danson's incredible background and skills will help us to develop a consensus on an issue that has not been fully explored.
The Chairman: Following our meeting last Friday, Adrienne Clarkson had a scrum outside the meeting wherein she announced that the plans for the expansion of the War Museum were put on hold for at least five to six years. My question is, was she speaking for you, Madam Minister, and if not, will you assure this committee and the veterans that the planned expansion of the War Museum will proceed as planned without the Holocaust Gallery and it will receive sufficient funding and independence?
Ms Copps: Senator, the first chance that I had to observe the maquette of the proposed expansion area, which would almost double the proposed display space for military artefacts, was at the time that they were dedicating the plaza to General Motors and the employees of General Motors who represented Canada in the two great wars. At that time the board spoke to me about the fund-raising campaign that they had undertaken, and also suggested that in order to complete the capital expansion with or without any designated gallery, they need to raise an additional $8 million to $10 million, of which they were hoping the federal government would come up with half.
At the moment, we are receiving requests from a number of organizations, including the National Arts Centre, the Canadian War Museum, and a number of other national museums, for millennium projects. Certainly this one will be very high on the list. However, I cannot say that we have the additional money because it is capital expenditure which is not provided for in our everyday budget. It will require us to go out and obtain additional money.
The Chairman: I feel you have left out one important part of my question, Madam Minister, and that is that the expansion would be put on hold for five or six years. Can you confirm or deny that?
Ms Copps: The only time I heard that was when I heard the scrum, as you did. I have had no discussions about the plans. In fact, all of us would hope that if we were able to pull together the capital that is necessary, we would be able to proceed more quickly. I have a meeting tomorrow with the president of the Canadian Museums Association who is looking for an increase in the allocation that we give to museums overall, and we must look at the whole picture. They put in a request of between $4 million and $5 million from the federal government for this project in addition to their ongoing funding, and we would look at that favourably however we also have other requests from other organizations for millennium projects of a similar nature -- not similar in terms of the design, but millennium projects of museums and capital expansions.
The Chairman: The Southam report on the War Museum issued in 1991 recommended that the War Museum be separated and given its own board of trustees. Do you agree with that recommendation?
Ms Copps: I asked David Pratt, who is the MP for Nepean and who has a strong interest in military and veterans' affairs, to do some research into that whole question. I know he has met with a number of veterans and has some ideas around that issue. At this point, it is clear that we need a new relationship mechanism. I am not sure what form that should take. Mr. Pratt and others, including members of the board of the Canadian Museum of Civilization, as well as the ad hoc advisory committee which will now be chaired by Barney Danson, will have some time to explore many of these issues and come back with some recommendations. I would not rule it out but I would not embrace it today.
The Chairman: Are you able to assure the committee that the veterans' organizations will be consulted in that regard?
Ms Copps: Absolutely. I do not know if any of the veterans are here today.
The Chairman: Just look around you.
Ms Copps: I am sorry, I was speaking of the veterans I met at Vimy House. It was conversations that I had with some veterans I met at the Vimy House exposition that we had just before we went over to declare Beaumont Hammel a national historic site that engaged me in the process, and that was part of the reason we reinvigorated the ad hoc committee and got this process going. I heard them say they were not comfortable with the full ambit of discussions and that is why this process was in part carried forward through the ad hoc committee and through the other changes that we made.
Senator Chalifoux: Were you aware of the recommendation of the task force of 1991 on military history museums? One recommendation was that the Canadian War Museum be put under the jurisdiction of the Department of Veterans Affairs. What is your opinion on that?
Ms Copps: If you have a chance to read the January/February issue of Legion magazine, you will have a chance to read in greater detail some of the views that I had a chance to express to its editor.
I have had discussions with my colleague Mr. Mifflin around this issue. In my opinion, the expansion of military museums must go beyond Ottawa. I should like to see a situation where museums such as the Canadian War Museum, and other military museums in communities across this country, like the War Plane Heritage Museum in my own community, and the various naval military museums, are interconnected and also connected into our school system. We must teach our children about their past.
When I went to the designation of Beaumont Hammel as the first Canadian historic site outside of Canada, I was moved to tears. I have gone to many events and I have spent a lot of time with veterans but I never really felt war until I went there. Every Canadian child should have a chance to stand in that field, even if it is in a virtual field by computer, and that can only be done if we can link our military museums across the country in some more formalized way. Perhaps the War Museum can play a role in helping to bring that about. That would be my longer-term vision.
When I spoke to Mr. Mifflin about it, he and I had some preliminary discussions about his feeling. He felt that the financial resources that we have available in the Department of Heritage are more liberal than those in his department, so he did not necessarily think that was the way to go, however, he he was very willing to collaborate and we have been in constant discussion on this issue. I have asked he and his staff for advice, and they have been involved in all the discussions prior to the designation of Mr. Danson as the new member of the larger committee.
Senator Chalifoux: This set of hearings was regarding the inclusion of the Holocaust Gallery within the War Museum. Every veterans' organization that we heard from totally agreed with having a Holocaust museum, but a separate one. Does your ministry have any ideas on what will happen there?
Ms Copps: We need to give this process a chance to work because emerging from this committee is a fair degree of consensus. Prior to these discussions, we were perhaps not hearing the consensus, we were hearing the dissonance. Now that we are moving towards a consensus, if there are recommendations that are made by the committee, we certainly would like to act on them.
The other overriding challenge that we face is one of capital expenditure. Obviously, any new building requires new investment by the museum. That is where we must take a larger look at what we can do in all areas for the millennium.
Senator Chalifoux: The veterans' associations stated very clearly that they felt such an exhibit belonged under the Canadian Museum of Civilization or some other museum because of the other holocausts that had taken place throughout many hundreds of years. Would your ministry consider that that type of exhibit would be more beneficial there?
Ms Copps: That is what they will be examining. I am looking forward to hearing their recommendations. One of the things that we must remember is that all of these people came together because they wanted to do something good and wanted to build a link from our heritage to our young people. Perhaps over the course of doing that, some mistakes were made or some consultations were left undone, but let us pick up the pieces from here and see if we can build something where everyone is together and not on opposite sides.
[Translation]
Senator Prud'homme: Welcome, Madame Minister. I am very happy to see you here today. This has brought back a lot of very fond memories for me. We will have to let the press reflect upon them.
[English]
You have followed the meetings that took place last week, during which we heard from over 50 witnesses. I was very honoured to be able to attend the meetings last week because I am not a member of the committee.
I will not beat around the bush. You know the sensitivity of Canadians. In caucus, Pierre Trudeau always told us to be careful to not pit Canadians against each other on an issue. That is why I showed up last week. This issue is the best example I can find of a bad decision by people who lack sensitivity with respect to what Canadians are thinking. I could not express it better than today. There was a lack of complete sensitivity and a lack of savoir faire.
I know you want to correct that. I would like to believe that you want to correct that, and I want you to correct that. The Senate will most likely be unanimous in asking you to do so at arm's length. When it becomes a political decision, I believe in arm's length. However, we must also remember that Canadians may get at each other's throats. That is a political decision, then.
In my view, it was wrong to pit the supporters of the Holocaust Gallery against the War Museum. It was wrong from day one. You must admit that some of us were mad when on February 1, 1997, Fred Gaffen said, "Oh, yes, there will be a gallery for the Holocaust." He is a 51 year-old war museum historian who designed the Holocaust Gallery. He said not to worry because it will not just be an ordinary Holocaust Gallery; he will get after Mackenzie King and his anti-Semitism.
I have always thought Mackenzie King was one of our great Prime Ministers. People are such good experts at judging with their eyes today what took place yesterday.
You can imagine how I exploded when Mr. Abella, one of the witnesses, and Mr. Gaffen agreed that anti-Jewish feelings were particularly vehement. He started talking about Quebec's Catholic church and influential elements in the media.
If we really want to pit ourselves against each other on this issue, it was wrong then and it is wrong now.
Most of those who appeared before the committee stated that both museums should stand on their own. If there is to be another gallery, let it be somewhere else. None of us are opposed to that.
We are still not satisfied today that this may take place. People are still saying to the press that they cannot find a solution. Some are saying that they will force the government to abide by its pledge. I do not believe you were involved with this. If so, you would tell us. They say that they will hold you to putting these two museums together.
My question is, do you believe that the two museums should be together? Second, as was recommended in 1991, do you believe that the War Museum should fall under the auspices of the Minister of Veterans Affairs?
This phrase is important: Corporate military memory. In politics, it is important to be associated with older people who have a political memory. Please ensure that in the War Museum you have people with a corporate military memory. It does not exist today. I am sure these people who are knowledgeable about art and painting do a fabulous job, but I doubt very much that they are interest in military matters.
We are about to approach the year 2000 where everyone wants a project. Why do you not take it upon yourself to say that the War Museum is the best place to explain the history and the evolution of Canada?
Madam Minister, people are upset. I have never seen more people upset about an issue.
Senator Cools: Perhaps we could have one of our staff give a copy of the article to the minister. She was not the minister on February 1, 1997.
Ms Copps: I spoke with Mr. Gaffen about this issue. We were talking about how we might approach this to maximize it. The discussion should go beyond this question and more directly into how we teach a generation of children who do not understand the realities of war about our past so that we do not repeat it.
Another way we could do this is by looking at who in the government has the mechanism to actually make that happen across the country. We could approach the Department of National Defence. I spoke to Art Eggleton about it en passent in an exploratory way, partly because I believe that many military institutions in our country are not known, institutions that young children never see. In my own area, we have put together a group to actually build a trail of the war of 1812. We live 100 kilometres from the U.S. border, and most Canadians do not know that at the battle of Stoney Creek, we kept our identity. That should be part of an historical museum tour that is in the framework of what it is you are trying to accomplish. That may be a possibility.
The other thing we are looking at is the financial administration issue. If you merely take one institution -- let us say the War Museum -- and say this is how the War Museum will be parsed off to a different ministry, and if you do not provide the infrastructure and the vision, you could end up with a situation that is not what we would really want.
You are absolutely right that the process did not reflect the consensus building one would necessarily undertake in the political process. However, the people who brought this idea forward were all acting in good faith to try to open up the museum to more Canadians. If you actually go to the museum now, and you will see how it needs more space. Forty per cent of the artefacts cannot be displayed. Obviously it needs some material and capital inputs.
Who is best to do that and how?
I would not proscribe any one solution, but I do think that the Honourable Barney Danson will have an opportunity to look at all those issues. Those are all relevant issues. If we are to have a military history that people will understand, it must go beyond one building. It is not one building that will do that, it must be more pan-Canadian. Perhaps there is a better venue.
We have been working with the Legion magazine on some material for CD-ROMs that are going into the schools. We do not put this out in a press release, but this involves grandchildren interviewing their grandparents about the war in order to get that sort of corporate memory. Today, most children do not know what war is. This was an attempt to do the capital expansion and to broaden the possible subject matter. There is a lot of subject matter in what is there already that could span the country.
DND might be financially in a better position than DVA on those issues and establish more infrastructure across the country. If you are to make it pan-Canadian, you must have museums in every province. That is the one thing we have with the Canadian Museums Association, which is a non-profit organization gathering all the museums together. They now represent over 1,000 museums across the country, which are blossoming in various areas. That synergy helps.
Senator Cools: Minister Copps, I should like to thank you very much for appearing before us this afternoon. Senator Phillips fought in Bomber Command. He noted that this is your first appearance -- not before a Senate committee but before the Senate Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. It is good for all of us because many of us did not realize before that Heritage Canada is connected to Veterans Affairs.
I am especially pleased that you are here today. This committee basically challenged me to obtain your presence here before us. I had a lot of personal credibility on the line. Our independent colleague here, Senator Prud'homme, urged me and questioned me daily about this. I kept saying that I was confident that the minister would come here.
When I approached the minister to appear before us, I discovered that the minister was ready, willing and able to appear before this committee. I think that should be known.
Minister, if there is something that we have learned in addition to the need for formal consultation processes within Crown corporations, we have also learned that suspicion and mistrust can grow very quickly in our midst. Many of these individuals went to war to fight for peace, yet we had to intervene to bring peace to this situation.
As a Liberal member of the committee, I thank you for your quick political responses and for your reconciliation, for your interest in Canadian history, for your interest in veterans, for your interest in all communities and, most of all, for acting as a responsible minister.
The Chairman: The committee is pleased that you stated that we were beginning to meet some form of consensus. I can assure you that the committee will continue to work towards consensus. We would be only too happy to meet with veterans groups or with museum groups, and so on, if we feel that we can continue to achieve consensus.
Thank you very much for coming here this afternoon.
The committee adjourned.