Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Agriculture and Forestry

Issue 1 - Evidence

The Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry met this day at 9:00 a.m. to organize the activities of the committee.

[English]

Mr. Daniel Charbonneau, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum. As clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am now ready to receive motions to that effect.

Senator Tkachuk: I nominate Senator Gustafson.

Mr. Charbonneau: Are there any further nominations?

There being none, I shall call the question.

Will all those in favour of the motion so indicate?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Mr. Charbonneau: The motion is carried.

I invite Senator Gustafson to take the chair

Senator Leonard J. Gustafson (Chairman) in the Chair.

The Chairman: Good morning. I want to thank you for your confidence and for the very good year we had last year in this committee. We received many good reports of the work done in the Senate Agriculture Committee.

As you will notice, we have a new clerk, Daniel Charbonneau. Our researchers are June Dewetering and Frederic Forge, who have been with us for a while. We appreciate their work, and we will give them lots of it.

Since the Prime Minister of England is here this morning, we will move as quickly as possible with our organization.

You have the agenda before you. I will not read all the paragraphs. You can peruse them, and ask questions if need be.

The first order of business is the election of the deputy chairman.

Senator Fairbairn: Mr. Chairman, I nominate Senator Wiebe.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Moving to motion 3 with regard to the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, may I have a motion to that effect?

Senator Milne: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Senator Wiebe: Is it possible for us to nominate that person now?

The Chairman: I think it has been the prerogative of the governing party to choose the third person on the subcommittee.

Senator Wiebe: To have it on record, I should like to nominate Senator Joyce Fairbairn.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Senator Oliver: The problem with that selection is that there would be three people from Western Canada on the committee. We do farm in Eastern Canada. There will be no representation from the East on the committee. I say that simply as an observation. I am pleased with all three appointments. I think they are excellent people, but do not forget that in Eastern Canada we count for something as well.

The Chairman: That is a valid point. We will certainly keep that in mind when choosing witnesses and so on.

Senator Fairbairn makes a good point, that we could unofficially include someone from the maritimes or Ontario, to ensure that we broaden the base.

The Chairman: Motion 4 is a motion to print the proceedings.

Senator Chalifoux: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators:Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Motion number 5 is authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.

Senator Taylor: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators:Agreed.

The Chairman: Motion number 6.

Senator Oliver: So moved.

The Chairman: I will ask the clerk for a little bit of information. We have the financial report of last year before us.

Mr. Charbonneau: These are the expenses that were incurred by the committee last session. It also includes the report that was tabled. Essentially, it is a report under rule 104 of the Senate, which require that, following the end of a session or a Parliament, a financial report be sent to the Senate. If the report is adopted by the committee, it will then go to the Senate to be tabled.

The Chairman: It is my understanding that we did not spend all this money. Is that right, Mr. Armitage?

Mr. Blair Armitage, Former Clerk of the Committee: Yes.

The Chairman: We were very frugal, but we should probably make some considerations for the future in terms of finance.

Are there any further questions on the financial report?

There being none, is everyone in favour of the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Motion 7, with regard to research staff.

Senator Tkachuk: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Motion number 8 deals with authority to commit funds and certify accounts.

Senator Fairbairn: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Motion number 9 deals with travel.

Senator Tkachuk: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried. Number 10 deals with travelling and living expenses for witnesses.

Senator Gill: I so move.

The Chairman: Is that agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Motion number 11 deals with electronic media cover of public meetings.

Senator Milne: I so move.

The Chairman: Are honourable senators in agreement?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried. Motion number 12 deals with the time slot for regular meetings. I understand that we will hold our meetings on Tuesdays after the Senate sessions and on Thursday mornings from 9:00 to 11:00.

I did discuss with the clerk the possibility of sometimes continuing until 2 o'clock if we have more witnesses. However, adjustments would have to be made with regard to availability of rooms.

Senator Fairbairn: Social Affairs sits from 11:00 until 2:00 in this room.

Senator Milne: The Thursday morning meeting is a real problem. I have indicated this to our whip's office. I am not sure why I am here, because I am also on Internal Economy, which meets at 9 o'clock Thursday mornings, and I chair the Legal Committee, which meets at 10:45 on Thursday mornings.

Senator Tkachuk: You do not have enough senators on your side.

The Chairman: These time slots have worked very well.

Senator Milne: I am just letting you know that I probably will not be here on Thursday mornings, but I will be here on Tuesdays.

Senator Stratton: Most of us have conflicts at 11 o'clock on Thursday. Perhaps we should meet late on Tuesday nights.

Senator Oliver: This committee is scheduled to meet when the Senate rises on Tuesdays. Wednesday will be a short day. Tuesday is basically the only day on which people can raise inquiries and so on. Very often, the Senate sits late on Tuesdays, on legislation, inquiries, motions, et cetera, which means that we may have witnesses waiting until 5:00 before we can get over here. That is the problem when we do not have a fixed time.

Senator Stratton: I would rather do that than meet on Monday or Friday.

Senator Oliver: Is that the only alternative?

The Chairman: We have already had an inquiry from the Canadian Wheat Board to appear before the committee. They are coming in early April. If we do not have specific times set, it is very hard for them to make their arrangements as well, both at the Commons and here.

Senator Stratton: Can we not get permission to meet at 5:30 even though the Senate may be sitting?

The Chairman: I think we can be flexible, if we can get a room.

Senator LeBreton: What is the time slot?

The Chairman: We are scheduled to meet on Tuesdays when the Senate rises and on Thursdays at 9:00.

That brings us to "Other Business." Is there anything to be raised at this time?

The conference of the Federation of Agriculture is coming up. We will all be notified of that. It bears remembering. It starts on Wednesday, February 28 and continues on March 1 and 2.

On another matter, although the steering committee has the authority to select witnesses, we might take a lead from the whole committee.

Mr. Charbonneau: The committee will not be able to call any witnesses until it has its order of reference from the Senate. Depending upon what the Senate decides, that may limit who we could call as witnesses.

In the past, the committee has had flexibility because it has received broad mandates. We do not yet know if we will receive a broad mandate again, but before we can schedule witnesses we have to get an order of reference from the Senate.

The Chairman: The order of reference that was used last year is on the bottom left-hand corner of the financial statement.

Senator Stratton: Just before the last Parliament ended, a subcommittee chaired by Senator Fitzpatrick travelled to Western Canada regarding the softwood lumber agreement. Are we going to continue that study? I think we should bring that forward. The agreement expires on March 31. This is a huge issue. We should have something brought forward from those meetings, even if it is only calling Senator Fitzpatrick as a witness to bring us up to date as to what transpired. Some members of this committee are not aware of what took place. It is critical that we do that, so that everyone around this table will be aware of the seriousness of what is about to take place. We are hoping that they will not limit our exports more severely than they already are. As a committee, we have it be prepared for that.

The Chairman: Thank you, Senator Stratton. That is a very good point.

Senator Chalifoux: This does not only affect B.C. It affects Manitoba, New Brunswick and Alberta.

Senator Stratton: We in Manitoba and New Brunswick have no limitations on our exports. B.C., Alberta and Quebec do, so we do not want a change of course.

Senator Chalifoux: This is the worry.

Senator Stratton: We should hear from Senator Fitzpatrick on this. He knows the issue.

Senator Wiebe: We need a new order of reference before we can begin that. Maybe that is the first objective.

Senator Stratton: Perhaps the chair could talk to Senator Fitzpatrick.

The Chairman: It should certainly be included in the order of reference.

Senator Fairbairn: Mr. Chairman, the opening of the CFA conference is on a Thursday morning. Unless a burning issue comes before the committee, perhaps that morning we should all free ourselves to go to the CFA meeting.

Senator Tkachuk: Something that bothers me that we might want to study is the ban on Brazilian beef. I am concerned that Brazil may take retaliatory measures on Canadian agricultural products. Perhaps we should examine how that decision was made. It has been controversial. There is some evidence that there may not have been sufficient substance to it. We should try to find out how those decisions are made. I am very concerned that when we make them in the way we did we leave ourselves open to those kinds of retaliatory measures against our agricultural products. Our farmers are hurting enough without that happening.

Senator Oliver: It is happening with potatoes in P.E.I. now.

Senator Stratton: The issue of potatoes in P.E.I. is an ever-growing issue. On Canada A.M., a man whose name I did not catch was interviewed who stated publicly that Canadian beef was unsafe. I am sure you know the impact of putting that, with no evidence, into the public domain, particularly those of you from Western Canada who have a lot of beef. People are not eating beef and our markets will be killed.

Perhaps we should view the tape of that show.

Senator LeBreton: Was he a Canadian?

Senator Stratton: Yes. I did not catch the name.

The Chairman: I was on TV last night on that subject, and if I was overly defensive of the government, he was very radical.

Senator Stratton: It was unbelievably scary. It was rhetoric.

The Chairman: He actually phoned in and said that we have mad cow disease. I tried to bring a balance to that by saying that we have good health practices in this country, that we some of the highest standards, and so on.

Senator Fairbairn: When Ralph Goodale was the Minister of Agriculture, he was criticized for the fact that he ordered the destruction of a major herd of cattle in central Alberta on the mere suggestion that there might have been, with one of them, something untoward. In order to keep our international reputation and our safety rules in Canada, we have, throughout all our governments, been very vigilant on that.

The Chairman: I pointed that out last night. On our farm, when I was a boy, we had cattle put down because of TB. The whole herd went. It was very thorough and has been very thorough. With the global challenges, the agency certainly faces some great challenges to keep up with all of the new technology. It was an interesting evening. I was in fear of seeing Senator Spivak this morning, because I was probably too defensive of our system.

Senator LeBreton: It was in terms of the beef industry, and now you have problems with the milk disease. The ordinary person in the public, I agree, will stop eating beef, and the impact on beef producers will be incredible.

The Chairman: I can tell you that our farmers are talking about that and are somewhat fearful. On the other hand, there is the other situation that Senator Tkachuk raised. There has been quite a bit in the papers about the Brazilian situation and the hardships that it may be putting on Brazil, not as much to the exports into Canada but the U.S. and Mexican exports.

Senator Wiebe: If we are looking at things that we could be studying, I suggest that we take a serious look at studying and making recommendations to the government of the day in regards to the transition that should take place within agriculture. This is an area that is effective whether we have a farm crisis or not. We have already lost one generation of farmers in this country. We have a good chance of losing two. We should look at some way that we can allow that transition to take place. We have to look at levelling the playing field.

For example, the average income, to use reliable figures like AIDA, for the Alberta farmer and the Manitoba farmer is quite a bit higher than it is for the Saskatchewan farmer, because those provinces provided more top-up to AIDA than did Saskatchewan. What is important is that the Alberta and Manitoba governments did a far better job of convincing their farmers to diversify their operations, to go along with the changes that are happening throughout the world, but Saskatchewan has not the done that. This is a very serious issue.

Our committee should be looking more at the long-term effects of what is happening within our industry rather than reacting to some of the blips and burps that may hit the news each and every day. As a chamber of sober second thought, we should come up with some recommendations, solutions and ideas on the direction that agriculture as a whole should be going in the future. We do not have the time now, but this is something that we should seriously look at. This committee could spend a considerable amount of time studying it.

Senator Milne: I suggest that the steering committee draw up an order of reference to look at, first, what happened with the last committee in its study of the softwood lumber and, second, an order of reference along the lines that Senator Wiebe mentioned. We can agree on that and get to work.

Senator Tkachuk: Still, consideration of the Brazilian beef thing would be on the agenda for discussion. I know what you are saying, but yesterday I watched CPAC and the phones never stop ringing. There is something to this. If it is real, it should be dealt with. If it is not real, it has to be allayed, because scaremongering is as dangerous as the reality. This is a long-term issue, and more and more people are very concerned about what is happening in food production. We cannot get away from it. Obviously, we are afraid because we banned Brazilian beef just like that, and that has never been an issue before. I never even heard it discussed before it happened that day. If we are afraid, then consumers are afraid, and this is not good for our cattle industry at all.

The Chairman: On Senator Wiebe's point, a very good article crossed my desk this morning regarding the turmoil of the global economy as far as agriculture is concerned. That whole area of the global economy has to be examined in view of how it is affecting our agricultural industry here in Canada. I would recommend that for your reading.

Senator Fairbairn: Perhaps you could get the clerk to circulate that.

The Chairman: If there is nothing further, we can adjourn.

The committee adjourned.