---

Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights

Issue 1 - Evidence, May 1, 2001

---

OTTAWA, Tuesday May 1, 2001

The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 11:05 a.m. in accordance with rule 88 of the Senate for an organization meeting.

[Translation]

Mr. Till Heyde, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable Senators, I believe we have a quorum.

[English]

I am Till Heyde, clerk of your committee. As clerk of your committee it is my duty to preside over the election of your chair.

Senator Finestone: We would like the head table to introduce themselves.

Mr. David Goetz, Researcher, Library of Parliament: I am with the Law and Government Division of the Parliamentary Research branch. I am here today to assist you with your research support needs.

[Translation]

Mr. Heyde: The first item on the agenda is the election of the chairman.

[English]

I can accept a motion for the election of the chair.

[Translation]

Senator Beaudoin: I nominate the Honourable Senator Raynell Andreychuk.

Mr. Heyde: Are there any other nominations?

[English]

It is moved by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin that Senator Andreychuk be elected chair of the committee.

Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Mr. Heyde: Carried. I ask Senator Andreychuk to take the chair.

Senator A. Raynell Andreychuk (Chairman) in the Chair.

The Chairman: My first duty is to thank the committee.

I will not make any speeches or comments about the committee until later. We will go to our agenda because we must finish quickly.

We are at the point of a nomination for the election of deputy chair.

Senator Poy: I nominate Senator Finestone as deputy chair.

Senator Oliver: I second the motion.

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried. It has been agreed unanimously that the Honourable Senator Finestone be deputy chair of this committee.

We must go through the usual resolutions. I need an honourable senator to move:

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the Committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and

That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.

An Hon. Senator: So moved.

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

I need a motion to print the committee's proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet the demand.

Senator Oliver: So moved.

Senator Beaudoin: Is the number fixed by the chair?

Senator Oliver: Yes.

The Chairman: That is what the motion says, but generally that is after discussion with the steering committee.

Mr. Heyde: The number is adjusted to meet demand.If there is higher demand, we can print more.

The Chairman: Is it agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: I need an authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present. Therefore, I need a motion:

That pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.

Senator Watt: I so move.

The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

I now need a motion:

That the Committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;

That the Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and

That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.

Senator Beaudoin: I so move.

The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Next, I need a motion:

That, pursuant to section 32 of the FinancialAdministration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee; and

That, pursuant to section 34 of the FinancialAdministration Act and Guideline 3.05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the Committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair and the Clerk of the Committee.

Senator Oliver: I so move.

The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Next, I need a motion:

That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonabletravelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.

Senator Beaudoin: I so move.

The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Senator Finestone: Is this the standard form that is used for all committees, that the chair has the right to do certain things?

Mr. Heyde: That was the standard form used prior to the last session of Parliament. Prior to that it had been two representatives per organization in terms of budget.

The Chairman: Approval being only by the chair.

Mr. Heyde: That is the standard.

Senator Finestone: For all standing committees of the Senate?

Mr. Heyde: Yes. The normal motion that is presented is that it is the chair who decides in exceptional cases.

The Chairman: We do have a tradition, I believe, that the chair would discuss that with the steering committee.

Senator Finestone: It gives a degree of responsibility that is quite onerous, frankly, and it is a bit undemocratic.

Senator Oliver: The Senate is undemocratic.

Senator Finestone: No, it is not. I do not agree with you at all. Most Canadians have liberal values, which includes you, sir. I think the base is liberal values. Given that choice, look what Canadians got - the best of them.

The Chairman: We are at Item No. 9 on the agenda.

I need a motion:

That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.

Senator Poy: I so move.

The Chairman: Honourable senators, it is agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

The new committees - defence and human rights - are to sit on Mondays. Originally, I was told they would sit at 5:45. The clerk then informed me that the message passed along to him was 5 p.m. The final word is that it will be our discretion as to whether we sit at 5:00 or 5:45.

Rather than getting into a discussion now as to how we operate, I think we need a good in camera session for that. I propose that we meet in camera this following Monday, May 7, to discuss the content of our work, the terms of reference, the operations, our needs, et cetera. In other words, we need a full and exhaustive discussion, and I would like all members to put on the table their expectations of this committee. We have been somewhat delayed. I had hoped we could start our meetings earlier, but I propose that it be Monday, May 7.

Senator Oliver: On May 7, there is a leader's dinner in the main foyer of the National Arts Centre. I must be there because I am doing something at the dinner. I will not be here.

Senator Kinsella: I want to comment on the proposition that any meetings of the Human Rights Committee be in camera. When we have an opportunity to deal with this, I would like to make the case that the Human Rights Committee ought not to do any of its work in camera.

Senator Oliver: I thought you said the opposite. You do not want in camera meetings?

Senator Kinsella: I want everything to be open.

Senator Oliver: Good.

Senator Beaudoin: I heard the contrary.

The Chairman: Senator Kinsella, I have no concern about that. However, I understood that the first meeting of the operation of a committee's business were always in camera. I hope that is one of the things we will talk about, whether we would be setting a new trend by not meeting in camera.

Senator Kinsella: I believe also there is a tradition, if not a rule, that when standing committees prepare their reports, those meetings are in camera. I would like to make the case that, notwithstanding any rule of the Senate dealing with in camera meetings, none of the meetings of the Human Rights Committee be held in camera.

Senator Beaudoin: Except the first one. Even if this committee exists legally now, the fact is that we did not have a chance to look at the mandate of the committee. I think that first meeting should be in camera because we are discussing what this committee is about. Would you object?

Senator Kinsella: I would object, but I have lost many an argument.

The Chairman: I was told that the first meeting had to be in camera. Our clerk tells me that normally it is held in camera. The rules state that we can decide to hold it in camera. Therefore, the interpretation is that we could have a public meeting. I have no problem with that. What is the wish of the committee?

Senator Wilson: What is your rationale, Senator Kinsella?

Senator Kinsella: I believe everything we do should be open.

Senator Wilson: Transparency.

Senator Kinsella: Absolute, 100 per cent transparency with no exceptions.

Senator Wilson: Timing is of concern to me, and I gather that Senator Ferretti Barth had problems with the 5:00 sitting time on Mondays. I need to know soon, in view of my othercommitments, when we will be meeting.

The Chairman: That is why I thought we would have our first meeting to discuss everyone's timetable.

Senator Watt: I will not be able to participate on Monday because my flights only leave at 4:30 p.m. from the Arctic. I get into Ottawa, if I am lucky, at 9:30 or 10:00 in the evening.

Senator Beaudoin: What about Tuesday morning?

Senator Watt: Tuesday morning would be good.

The Chairman: Does anyone have a conflict with Tuesday morning?

Senator Wilson: I like to go to the Aboriginal Committee, which is from 9:30 to 11:00.

The Chairman: Here is the dilemma: Even the Aboriginal Committee, I understand, when it was set up, was supposed to sit on Mondays. Of course, it then quickly moved into the three-day Tuesday-Thursday period. These two committees were set up on the understanding that we would be meeting on Mondays or Fridays.

I am in the hands of the committee. Senator Kinsella is the only senator here who has a leadership role. I have heard the same sorts of comments coming from the Defence Committee. I do not want to speak for that committee or taint that committee in any way, but my understanding is that the new committees are to sit Mondays or Fridays.

Senator Kinsella: The problem we are faced with is the availability of human resources, as well as physical resources, if we hold our meetings on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. My understanding is that we do not have the reporters or the interpreters. Quite frankly, we do not even have a room. That was one of the objective technical reasons brought forward by those who argued against two extra committees in addition to the 12 standing committees. A subcommittee of the Rules Commit tee is currently studying the issue.

The Chairman: The point I was about to make is that the Rules Committee is presently going around speaking with committees about all of this. They are asking when they sit, is it convenient and how can we change our workloads. I understood that we were at least committed to Mondays until the end of June, subject to convincing the Rules Committee beyond that point. I think we are stuck with Mondays.

Senator Watt: People who cannot be here cannot be a member of the committee, then. I cannot be here.

Senator Finestone: I understand - and Senator Kinsella is here to agree or disagree - that there was a lot of negotiation around both those committees with respect in particular to staffing and timing. Part of the agreement, as I understood from the exchange on the floor of the house, was a respect for those constraints. I would not like to see us break the rules the first time we have a meeting.

I regret that certain members cannot be here on Mondays due to physical arrangements and other challenges. However, I believe that we should meet the challenge and demonstrate that there is a good reason for a Human Rights Committee, that its raison d'être will enhance the responsibilities that we have as senators. I suggest that we respect the decision that was made, live within those parameters and then make our arguments pro and con at the end of June.

The Chairman: I appreciate Senator Watt's problem; however, I have the same problem. I fought for the establishment of the Human Rights Committee.

I have to leave at 7 a.m. on Monday morning to make any time on Monday. If the flight I intend to take is cancelled, which seems to be the case out of Regina, I will be coming in on Sunday nights. However, that is the price I pay for wanting this committee.

Senator Watt: We only have one flight.

Senator Wilson: Can you tell me what Senator Ferretti Barth's problem was?

The Chairman: She wanted the committee to sit at 5:45 as opposed to 5:00.

Senator Beaudoin: What is wrong with Tuesday morning?

The Chairman: I think we can get into that issue later. Since we are running out of time, we need to set the first meeting so that we can talk about operational matters and see everyone's needs and difficulties. If we have some insurmountable ones, we will have to see whether we can move to Tuesdays or some other day.

As Senator Finestone says, we have a mandate to sit Mondays or Fridays. We might discuss Fridays for that matter. For the first meeting, we must set a time when staff is available.

Senator Beaudoin: Are Fridays possible?

The Chairman: As I understand, it was Mondays or Fridays.

I think the decision is to hold our first meeting on Monday, May 7. Let us start at 5:00 for this meeting. I will speak to Senator Ferretti Barth and we can bring her up to speed.

Senator Wilson:Can I ask what opportunity Senator Watt will have for input?

Senator Watt: None at this point.

The Chairman: I do not think that is true. We must go ahead on Monday. I would appreciate it if you sit down with the steering committee to explain your position and what your options are so that we can explain them to the main committee. When we have a consensus, I can speak to you about whether our schedule will work out for you.

Senator Poy: On May 7, I cannot make it because I have appointments that cannot be changed. Is it possible for me to convey my ideas to you?

The Chairman: Yes.

Are we agreed that it will be May 7, at five o'clock? Will we meet in camera or public?

Senator Beaudoin: I do not care.

The Chairman: Shall we set a new trend and say that it is open?

Senator Kinsella: Agreed.

Senator Wilson: I think so.

The Chairman: I hope that when we meet we will talk about just two things. People who are on this committee feel strongly about human rights. I hope we can do everything to accommodate personal views. I hope members will realize that that will mean changing some of their priorities.

Senator Kinsella: There is no conflict when the Senate rises on Thursday.

Senator Finestone: That is at six o'clock.

The Chairman: Or seven or eight.

Senator Kinsella: It is usually around 5:30. It may be better for those senators who can leave Friday morning. The problem in terms of the overall picture is that from eight o'clock Tuesday morning until five o'clock Thursday afternoon the committee slots are plugged.

The Chairman: The other proposition was that we not meet every Monday but that we bank our time, put in a full day on a Monday and sit in the morning and the afternoon. That is the one of the things I was considering. We do not get much done in an hour and a half. If we sat for a longer period of time, we would not need to sit every Monday. That may help some of us who have travel problems.

We must keep an open mind about the operations and about what this committee will do.

We have to go to the Senate for a general reference because we must pin down our terms of reference. I think we can develop a plan of action, which will not really get going, but we can have the staff working on it during the summer. Perhaps we can meet once or twice during the summer, if we can agree to that. We will get into full swing in September.

Senator Finestone: Was there any direction with respect to a national or international perspective or any restraints as to whether we look at international issues as well as national issues?

The Chairman: No. Most of us who made the compelling case for the establishment of the committee did so on the basis of the international law field, although there are some concerns about Canada.

Senator Beaudoin: The reason I am in favour of a Human Rights Committee is that we are lacking the possibility of studying more adequately human rights in the international field. The Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee is not equipped for that, but this committee will be.

The Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee knows exactly what human rights is about: the legal realm, the constitutional realm and the Charter of Rights. There is one aspect that is not studied the way it should be studied - that is, human rights in the international field. In my opinion that should be the core of this committee's work.

Senator Oliver: Why should that not be a matter for the Foreign Affairs Committee?

Senator Wilson: We are getting into a discussion.

The Chairman: We should all wait until Monday to express our points of view and see if there is a consensus on what we believe a Human Rights Committee should do and can do while respecting the mandates of other committees.

Existing committees have handled some parts of the human rights issue. We are not intending to infringe on other committees, but there is some work that has not been touched upon by other committees. We should come prepared for that discussion on Monday.

Senator Beaudoin: When you talk about sitting the whole day on Monday, that is not possible for me even if I am here.

The Chairman: That is just one proposal. None of the suggestions are set in stone. Those are ideas for you to think about. On Monday, tell us if that is a good or bad idea. Please come prepared to discuss what your agenda allows.

Senator Poy: Did someone mention possibly meeting at the end of the day on Thursday so that we could leave Friday morning?

The Chairman: Yes. Come and make your case on Monday.

The committee adjourned.

---