Proceedings of the Special Committee on
Illegal Drugs

Issue 1 - Evidence for March 19, 2001

The Special Senate Committee on Illegal Drugs met this day at 1:04 p.m. to organize the activities of the committee.

[English]

Mr. Blair Armitage, Clerk of the committee: As clerk of this committee, it is my responsibility to preside over the election of the chair.

Are there any nominations to that effect?

Senator Kenny: I nominate Senator Nolin.

Mr. Armitage: It has been moved by the Honourable Senator Kenny that the Honourable Senator Pierre Claude Nolin become Chair of this committee. Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Senator Pierre Claude Nolin (Chairman) in the Chair.

The Chairman: Thank you very much. First, I welcome the old and new members of this committee.

If you follow the debates in the chamber, you will know that a somewhat different mandate for this committee has been adopted, and the time for the committee to report on that mandate has been shortened. We will have to table our report in the Senate by the end of August, 2002.

The new mandate is to study the Canadian drug policy related to cannabis.

Senator Maheu: Before we proceed further, Mr. Chairman, could you give me the names of the members of the committee?

The Chairman: Yes. The three of us on will be on the committee, plus Senator Rossiter and Senator Banks.

Senator Maheu: Senator Banks stays on the committee.

The Chairman: Unfortunately, our two other colleagues could not be here at this time, but we thought it was appropriate for us to at least organize the committee.

I suggest that we adopt a proposed budget to make it possible for us to present that budget to the Subcommittee on Budget and Finances of Internal Economy as soon as possible. When we convene the committee, we will have a general discussion of the work plan.

I will deal with this in more detail later, but I would suggest that you read the work plan and the dates that we are proposing. We will have a thorough discussion of that before we start the committee's work.

The next item on the agenda is the election of a Deputy Chair.

I move that Senator Kenny become the Deputy Chair of this committee. Is there any other nomination?

There being no other nomination, the motion that Senator Kenny be the Deputy Chair of this committee is adopted.

The next item deals with the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, and I need a motion in that regard.

Mr. Armitage: As it is written, the third member is to be named after consultation, but you could name that member now if you prefer. That option is available to you.

The Chairman: The Chair and the Deputy Chair will form the subcommittee.

Mr. Armitage: You require one other member.

The Chairman: We require another member, after consultation.

Do I have a proposal for that?

Senator Maheu: I should like to recommend that you consult with the leadership before you suggest anyone.

The Chairman: We will do that.

Is it agreed that Senator Kenny and I will be members of that subcommittee, plus another member?

Senator Maheu: Yes.

Senator Kenny: I so move.

The Chairman: Carried.

Next we require a motion to print the is committee's proceedings.

Senator Kenny: I so move item No. 4.

The Chairman: Senator Kenny moves that the committee print its proceedings. It is properly adopted.

The next item of business is authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.

Senator Maheu: I so move.

The Chairman: It is moved that, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, and to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.

The next item relates to research staff.

Senator Maheu: This is from the Library of Parliament, is it? I believe it just hired eight researchers.

Mr. Armitage: This would authorize the committee to ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers, and it would also authorize us to go to the Senate to ask for permission to hire.

Senator Maheu: Why would we have to hire if the library has just hired seven or eight new researchers?

The Chairman: At the end of the document in front of us there is a description of the duties of the director of research. We intend to split the work between a researcher from the library and the specific person who would head the research of the committee.

Senator Maheu: Why? I am sorry that I am being curious.

The Chairman: First, that individual was with the committee during the last session. It is important that we have continuity. During the last session, we undertook the coordination of various research efforts. The first important one was by the library. Six researchers from the library are researching specific aspects of the mandate. There is also research underway both in government and in various departments that needs to be coordinated. That researcher will be part of the coordination table within the government. As well, there is research underway in different NGOs, both in Canada and outside Canada. That person is in contact regularly with all those individuals from within the government and outside government, in Canada and outside Canada, mainly in Europe and in the U.S.

Senator Maheu: I know what you are saying, and I agree with you, up to the point where I am 99.9 per cent sure that we will be told that this budget is way out of line. I say that from having heard what I have heard so far.

I asked a few questions about today's meeting, and I was told additional researchers have been hired. Why can we not use them? I am looking for arguments for Internal Economy.

The Chairman: I propose that we adopt the budget as it has been proposed. Internal may be of the view that we should cut our budget. It will not be just our committee, but all the budgets will have to be cut, if what I am hearing it true. The request for money is way out of line from the numbers that are available to all committees.

When we hear back from Internal, we will reconvene the committee and see what we can do with the money that will be allotted to us. If that suits your concern, I think that is the proper way to proceed.

Senator Maheu: Not really, Mr. Chairman. I would be a hypocrite if I went in with something that I felt I should approve here and not approve at Internal.

The Chairman: Who starts, is it us or Internal? I do not think we should prejudge what Internal Economy will decide.

When you read the tasks that we want the director of research to perform, you will see that the tasks are quite impressive. The research program is not to do basic research or research itself, it is to coordinate the research. As I told you, it is not only in Canada but also outside Canada. It is not only inside the government but also outside the government. We need someone who will coordinate that effort.

Senator Maheu: Is there not anyone on staff in Parliament who can do that?

The Chairman: No.

Senator Maheu: I will abstain on this issue, then, and let you two present.

The Chairman: With respect to the importance of the subject in terms of the research that has already been done not only in Canada but also outside this country over the last 30 years, we need a group of individuals to read all that research and to provide the committee with the proper counsel and advice to ensure that we hear from the proper witnesses.

In the drug field, anyone canvassing what is already on the Internet would soon find out that there is contradictory evidence and research out there. We need sound advice to ensure that we hear the evidence that needs to be rigorous on that subject. Unfortunately, over the last 90 years, the rigor has not always been there, that is why the research that must be done before and during the hearings of this committee must be done in a professional fashion. I am not at all suggesting that anyone in the government cannot do that.

However, it needs to be done on a full-time basis because it is a vast subject. That person needs to be on top of the situation. We do not have the luxury to train someone who will, for the first six months, need to acquaint himself or herself with the subject.

That is why the easiest and the most cost-savings way to do that is to propose what I am proposing as the job description of the director of research. However, I understand your concerns, senator.

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: Last year, you requested $200,000. This year, you are asking for an additional $200,000 for your cannabis study, our double the amount merely to study one drug.

[English]

Senator Kenny: The ground in the field that you have to cover is exactly the same whether we are about it for one drug or for all drugs. Included in here we have a significant set of public hearings. I thought a key part of our exercise was to get out and have Senate committees dealing with the public.

Senator Maheu: Public hearings are but half of the professional services.

Senator Kenny: That is right.

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: I agree, but you are requesting twice the amount for professional services.

[English]

Senator Kenny: We are agreed, then, as far as the transportation and communications goes for the hearings, that is half. In the other half, you have not included PR. I do not know how we will function. What is the point of having the committee do its work if there is no PR?

On the question of hiring a director of research, the problem arises time after time that the library may be hiring new people, but are they hiring new people who are competent in this area and who can do this work?

Senator Maheu: I do not know. Why could they not hire people who are competent in this area?

The Chairman: Before going further into a discussion on the budget, we must approve this. Do we want the authority to hire? That is the first step.

Senator Maheu: That is why I went to the budget. I disagree with hiring because of the money problem.

Mr. Armitage: I wish to address one factual point. There was a meeting in Senator Nolin's office with the people involved. They recognized that the original budget that we had for this project was a lot higher than it is right now. They agreed to a different organizational model.

Senator Maheu: Who were these people?

Mr. Armitage: There was the researcher who worked for the committee the last time.

Senator Maheu: A private researcher?

Mr. Armitage: That is right. There was also Jean-Guy Desgagné, who is here with us today. He worked on communications.

They agreed that we should bring the Library of Parliament in as fully as they are capable of being included. They indicated quite a limitation in participating in this committee. We raised the question of the additional researchers who will be hired. These researchers will not be hired for several months because of the process that takes place.

A committee of this profile and this complexity requires a senior researcher. There is a relative lack of those available. They are doing their best now to find somebody who has the right skills to work with the committee, but they do not see him or her being in place to do the whole scope of the job. However, by bringing them in, we did reduce, significantly, the amount of time that the director of research would have to spend on a lot of the routine work of the committee and in having to come to Ottawa as frequently as he did the last time around.

Senator Maheu: You have two researchers, Mr. Sansfaçon and Mr. Desgagné?

Senator Kenny: This is a boilerplate resolution that empowers the committee to hire. It does not say it will hire them. I have never seen a committee that did not have authority to hire researchers inside, from the Library of Parliament, or from outside, whatever it needed. I have never been on a Senate committee that did not have this precise clause included.

Senator Maheu: You have been here longer than I have. I just know that we will run into trouble.

Senator Kenny: I understand, but that is no reason not to support the committee having the power. All we are saying, if I read this resolution correctly, is that the committee has the power to hire.

Senator Maheu: You are talking both interior and exterior?

The Chairman: Do I have a proposal from Senator Kenny?

Senator Kenny: Yes, but I must add that I have never seen a committee struck that did not have this clause as part of its mandate.

Senator Maheu: I have seen researchers for a committee from the Library of Parliament before, but I have not always seen permission to hire outside.

Senator Kenny: I stand to be corrected, but has our clerk ever seen motions that exclude outside researchers?

Mr. Armitage: It does tend to be a fairly common motion.

Senator Maheu: All right.

The Chairman: That motion is put forward my Senator Kenny. Is it agreed?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Item No. 7 is the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. This is another fairly normal authority. I move:

That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds to be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee; and

That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.

Senator Maheu: You will not be bringing it back to the committee under this one. Is that right?

The Chairman: That is another normal motion. Is it approved?

Senator Maheu: Yes.

The Chairman: Carried.

Next is No. 8, travel. I need a motion to that effect.

Senator Kenny: I so move.

[Translation]

The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Kenny:

That the Committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the Committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the Committee; and

That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure beauthorized to:

1) determine whether any member of the Committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and

2) consider any member of the Committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the Committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the Committee.

The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Maheu:

That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses expenses, the Committee may reimburse reasonable travel ling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.

The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the Committee to adopt the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

[English]

Item No. 10 is the motion regarding time slot for regular meetings. I propose Mondays between 10 a.m. and 6 p.m., in room 257, East Block, subject to proper dates that would suit our needs.

Mr. Armitage: The one limitation mentioned to me is that, from time to time, there may be a conflict with one of the two new committees wanting to use this room for video conferencing, since this room is specifically wired for video conferencing. If that conflict occurs, we might be asked to sit elsewhere.

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

The Chairman: Carried.

Next is item No. 11, other business. The first matter is a work plan. As I mentioned earlier, we have the work plan, and I would suggest that we read those documents. Once we have read them, we will reconvene to consider them properly.

Mr. Armitage: In the document with the tabs, there is a section with proposed hearing dates. Sitting down with a copy of the parliamentary calendar from the House of Commons to try to judge when the Senate might not be sitting, we have come up with a revised set and we have put them in the form of a calendar for you with the proposed dates.

Senator Maheu: Are these sitting days of the House, or days when the House is not sitting?

Mr. Armitage: These are days we know the House of Commons is scheduled to sit, and we believe the Senate will probably be sitting.

The Chairman: The Senate will be sitting that week, but not that day.

Mr. Armitage: That is right, the week but not the day, as it is a Monday.

The Chairman: I suggest that we read the material and reconvene the committee to study the work plan.

The next matter under that item is the authorization for request of emergency funds for this fiscal year. We have basically a week and a half. Perhaps we will not need emergency funds.

Next is the budget. You have in front of you a proposed budget. We have already had some discussion on that. Do you have other questions? Mr. Desgagné is here to be part of the discussion if we need his help.

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: Why is the committee requesting two English reporters and only one French reporter? As Chair of the Joint Committee on Official Languages, I am curious about this.

[English]

The Chairman: I will ask the Clerk about that.

Mr. Armitage: This is the form that we have used with all our committees in budgeting. It seems to handle the volume of work in the two languages.

Senator Maheu: Why one French? Do they work twice as hard?

Mr. Armitage: It is based entirely on the volume of witnesses and the amounts that the two languages are used.

Senator Maheu: If we went to Quebec, it would be reversed?

Mr. Armitage: That is right.

The Chairman: That means for the Montreal portion of the trip, it will be reversed.

Senator Maheu: Good.

Senator Kenny: What dates are you looking at?

The Chairman: We are looking at the latter part of this fiscal year. We do not have fixed dates in mind.

Senator Kenny: I see April and May here, and those months are out of the fiscal year.

Senator Maheu: You said the latter part of this fiscal year. Do you mean within the next two weeks?

The Chairman: No. We are studying the budget for the next fiscal year, 2001-2002. Where do you see that?

Senator Kenny: It is under tab 1.

The Chairman: I have the French version of tab 1, but if you look at the English version, there is a timeline.

Mr. Armitage: It is not clear, but it looks as though it is partially under March and partially under April.

Senator Kenny: Is that a year from now?

The Chairman: It will be February, March of the fiscal year we are looking at.

Senator Maheu: But you have April, May, June, July and August in there too.

The Chairman: Yes, in terms of the timeline.

Senator Maheu: Why?

The Chairman: We need to hear and understand the vast technical, medical and scientific evidence on the subject of cannabis before we travel outside Ottawa and start to engage Canadians in the debate on the subject. That is why I propose that we have our public hearings with Canadians after.

Senator Kenny: Will we discuss this later?

The Chairman: Of course. That will be part of the work plan that we will have to discuss in due course. I will want Mr. Sansfaçon, Mr. Desgagné and the clerk to be part of the discussion when we discuss the work plan. A work plan is needed for an approach to the mandate and the terms of reference of the committee. First things first. Let us approve the budget and see if we have the proper resources to hire those individuals. If so, we will do it and have the committee properly called together to discuss that.

Are there other questions on the budget?

Senator Kenny: In terms of the public hearings and the way we have organized this budget, there are some things I donot understand. For example, why wouldn't the interpretation equipment and the reporters be all part of the public hearings? If we do not pay for them here, we pay for them on the road.

Mr. Armitage: It is simply because of the way the budget is broken down in the appendix to the rules. You have to put professional and other services in that section. Transportation and communication expenses fall under that rubric.

Senator Kenny: Why?

Mr. Armitage: Hiring reporters and renting interpretation equipment are considered to be "professional and other services."

Senator Kenny: But why is the rule like that? It does not help us in analyzing how things are working.

Mr. Armitage: I couldn't agree with you more.

Senator Kenny: In other words, if we do not travel it would be nice to see what falls off the budget. If we do travel, let us see what the total cost for travelling would be. It seems to me that there is $25,000 that should be out of here, out of professional services and showing up in our travel costs.

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: When will the hearings outside Ottawa begin?

The Chairman: In the final two or three months of fiscal year 2001-2002, that is in February and March of 2002. We do not have here a copy of the budget for the second fiscal year, but we can twin expenses for the months of February and March, and for the months of April and May.

Senator Maheu: You will be amending the budget accordingly then?

The Chairman: Not so much this budget, but the one for the second fiscal year.

Senator Maheu: Where do you intend to hold your first hearings? You have really trimmed your budget.

The Chairman: Not really. Our budget runs until March 31. We have a broad mandate to focus on one substance in particular, but this does not mean that our research will be limited. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Senator Maheu: The process will not be less costly.

The Chairman: We are not saving any money.

[English]

Senator Kenny: If I understand Senator Maheu's earlier concerns, they do not relate to the travel part of the budget, they relate to items 1, 2 and 3.

Senator Maheu: Item 3 is $40,000.

Senator Kenny: Item No. 3 is unique.

[Translation]

The Chairman: The reason is quite simple. We will see if the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration will give its approval. My caucus has agreed to keep the committee running and to keep up research efforts when Parliament is dissolved.

Senator Maheu: You mean during an election campaign?

The Chairman: From the time of dissolution onward. Obviously, this is an unusual request. We will see what the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration decides. However, if we do not request these funds, we are certain not to receive them. That is why the request has been made.

Senator Kenny: Communications and research are two issues for future consideration. The same questions need to be taken up with the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration. We have here a letter from the Director of Research at the Library of Parliament advising us that there is no staff available at this time.

Senator Maheu: Were there not the same number of researchers on staff at the time the budget was drafted?

Senator Kenny: The Library of Parliament is short of staff at this time.

[English]

I think there was authority in the Speech from the Throne to hire, but I do not think their money comes until the new fiscal year. They then have a long and bureaucratic approach to follow. They must post the competition and interview new candidates. They must go through all that. One is the announcement and one is the hiring. I do not think we will see the bodies until the fall.

Senator Maheu: Why do they not hire Messrs Sansfaçon and Desgagné? That would save a lot of problems.

Senator Kenny: When you go to the Director of Research in the Library of Parliament and say, "Here is the person I would like for the job," the answer you get back is, "Terrific, but we do not have that person. We do have someone, however, who is working for three other committees and who has no expertise in this area, but we can make her available to you for two days per week."

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: That was true once, but no longer.

Senator Kenny: We are talking about the present.

Senator Maheu: They have not yet hired more staff. How can you say that?

[English]

Senator Kenny: I am suggesting that our Chair's case would be strengthened if he had that in writing from the library.

Mr. Armitage: Senator Kenny has described the current situation.

Senator Maheu: Who says we cannot change it? That is what I am saying: hire Sansfaçon and Desgagné.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Do you have any questions about the proposed budget?

Senator Maheu: No.

The Chairman: Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the budget?

Senator Kenny: Agreed.

The Chairman: It is proposed by Senator Kenny that the report be adopted.

[English]

Mr. Jean Guy Desgagné, Communications Director: The budget to be presented to the Internal Economy Committee should adopt the suggestion made by Senator Kenny; that is, professional services should be identified, but under the rubric of "travelling" so that it is part of that section of activities rather than the other one.

[Translation]

The Chairman: We cannot do that.

[English]

Mr. Armitage: I cannot put it under "Transportation and Communications".

Mr. Desgagné: No?

Mr. Armitage: No.

[Translation]

Senator Maheu: If we do not travel, then they cannot work.

[English]

Mr. Armitage: I can make it more clear. I can include in the brackets "for public hearings," but I cannot put them in another part of the budget.

Mr. Desgagné: Could you have a subtotal there?

Mr. Armitage: I will put an identification note there.

Senator Kenny: Where is the explanation for government?

Mr. Armitage: It is in the appendices of the Rules of the Senate of Canada, Appendix 1:03.

Senator Kenny: Passed by whom?

Mr. Armitage: By the Senate of Canada.

Senator Kenny: Adopted by the Senate?

Mr. Armitage: Yes.

The Chairman: It is found in Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate of Canada.

Senator Kenny: We should draw this to the attention of the Rules Committee, because it does not make for easy budgeting or easy understanding of a budget.

[Translation]

The Chairman: Are there any further questions?

Hon. Senators: No.

The committee adjourned.