Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Aboriginal Peoples
Issue 1 - Evidence of October 30, 2002
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 30, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples met this day at 6:15 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Adam Thompson, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, there is a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair. I am now ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Christensen: I move that Senator Chalifoux be chair.
Mr. Thompson: Are there any other nominations? Seeing none, it is moved by Senator Christensen that Senator Chalifoux do now take the chair. Is that agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Thompson: I declare the motion carried. Pursuant to rule 88, I invite Senator Chalifoux to take the chair.
Senator Thelma J. Chalifoux (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: I thank you all very much for having confidence in me chairing this committee. It is a very great honour that we come together as a group to address the very serious issues that are facing our Aboriginal people in the urban centres, especially the youth.
The next agenda item is the election of the deputy chair.
Senator Stratton: I would like to propose the name of Senator Brenda Robertson.
The Chairman: Is she a member of the committee?
Senator Stratton: Yes, she is.
The Chairman: Yes, she is. Are there any other nominations? There being none, I declare that Senator Robertson is the deputy chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples. I am sure she will be a very good one. She is a very good politician and has worked ardently through the years.
Senator Stratton: I should like to make a comment with respect to Senator Robertson. She will have surgery on Friday, and I will likely be acting as deputy chair on her behalf throughout the time of her recovery.
The Chairman: That is good. Welcome to our committee, Senator Stratton. You will find it very interesting and very challenging. This is an interesting committee.
The next item on the agenda is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
The proposal is:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure being composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the Subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Senator Carney: Is that what we normally refer to as a steering committee?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Carney: Why is it not called a steering committee rather than a subcommittee?
The Chairman: This is the formal name, according to the clerk.
Senator Sibbeston: I so move.
Senator Stratton: Have you come up with a name of the third senator on the subcommittee?
The Chairman: Senator Pearson occupied that role last session, if it is in agreement with the rest of the committee.
Senator Carney: What about Senator Christensen? She is from the North, and we really do need someone from the North in this position.
Senator Christensen: It is a matter of timing. As I chair caucus, I find that I am completely committed.
The Chairman: Are there any other questions? It is moved that Senator Pearson will be the other member of the steering committee. Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Motion No. 4 is to print the committee's proceedings:
That the committee print its proceedings; and
That the Chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator Christensen: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 5 relates to the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when quorum is not present:
That, pursuant to rule 89, the Chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Hubley: I so move.
The Chairman: All in agreement?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Carney: This motion does not say you cannot vote, which I have been advised by the acting chair. Should it not say they cannot vote?
The Chairman: According to our clerk, it is designated in rule 89. It is automatically there when we state it is pursuant to rule 89.
Motion No. 6 relates to the financial report and states:
That, pursuant to rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
Senator Carney: I will move that motion.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 7, research staff.
Senator Stratton: Dispense.
The Chairman: Thank you. Do I have a mover?
Senator Stratton: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 8 has to do with the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Would you like me to read it?
Hon. Senators: No.
The Chairman: Do I have a mover?
Senator Pearson: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 9 relates to travel. Would you like me to read it?
Senator Stratton: The only comment I have is that we authorize travel inside Canada and not outside the country. I would appreciate it if that were included.
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Carney: I know that is normal, but there are places like Alaska, for example. Is there any way of covering travel if we travel to study legislation that affects the porcupine caribou herd in such places?
Senator Stratton: The trend is that if committees want to travel outside the country, wherever that may be, they have to come to the Senate or to the Internal Economy Committee and request permission to travel. That is consistent across the board.
Senator Carney: I understand that, but the senator is speaking in his official role, not in our interests. There is the Arctic Council. There are meetings in Greenland and Alaska. There are other important meetings affecting Aboriginal people. The whole Arctic Council concept is to get people like us to meet in these locales.
Senator Stratton: I am not disagreeing, Senator Carney. However, whether we put that proviso in this clause or not, it is a rule of the Senate that committees cannot travel outside the country without permission of the Internal Economy Committee and the Senate.
Senator Carney: Then let us leave it up to the Rules of the Senate.
Senator Stratton: I will leave to the committee to decide.
The Chairman: Are there any further comments on this motion? Do we leave it the way it is?
Senator Pearson: In a way, Senator Stratton is saying that it is automatic.
Senator Stratton: Committees cannot travel outside of Canada.
Senator Gill: This is a rule now.
Senator Pearson: The committee cannot give that permission now.
Senator Stratton: I just wanted it on record that we do not travel outside of Canada.
Senator Carney: Should we decide to send a delegation to the Arctic Council in Alaska, can we do that?
Senator Stratton: We can do it through the Internal Economy Committee and with the permission of the Senate as a whole, yes.
The Chairman: We would have to ask permission.
Is it agreed that we keep the motion just the way it is, or do we add something?
Senator Stratton: Who moves this motion?
Senator Christensen: I will move it as is.
Senator Stratton: The record should note that I dissented.
The Chairman: With one dissenting vote.
Senator Stratton: Thank you.
Senator Pearson: The other comments are on the record.
The Chairman: Motion No. 10 relates to the designation of members travelling on committee business. Would you like me to read it?
Hon. Senators: Dispense.
Senator Hubley: So moved.
The Chairman: Are there any comments? All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 11, travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Carney: I so move.
The Chairman: Are there any comments? All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Electronic media coverage of public meetings, Motion No. 12.
Senator Gill: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Motion No. 13, time slot for regular meetings. Tuesdays at 9:00 a.m. and Wednesdays at 6:15 p.m.
Senator Christensen: Can we change that to when the Senate rises?
Senator Stratton: No. We normally rise around 3:30, 4:00 p.m. on Wednesdays.
Senator Christensen: Does it conflict with other committees?
Senator Stratton: In previous sessions, the meetings were normally held at about 5:45. They have been deliberately moved to 6:15 to allow for the fact that the Senate does not generally rise at 3:30 but more around 4:00. The leaders have allowed a half hour slippage. In other words, instead of meeting at 5:45, we now meet at 6:15.
Senator Pearson: I would like it to be understood on the record that it would be nice to put an outside limit on how long the meeting lasts. I do not think we put it in this motion, but I think it is significant that Wednesday is one of those days when we start very early and end very late.
Senator Stratton: I have a conflict with the Rules Committee starting at 9:30 or 10:00 in the morning. That is for the record. If we want to meet at 7:30, I am all for it, but I do not think that will fly.
Senator Carney: I usually get to Ottawa at 9:30 p.m. on Monday nights, which is 4:30 Pacific Standard Time.
Can I just say that if we are going to meet at 6:15, the budget should contain provision for sandwiches or something. It is not really fair to have witnesses come and us come to the meeting without something to eat.
The Chairman: Absolutely.
It is interesting you mention the time limit because that was also mentioned at another organizational meeting. Rather than a meeting going on until 10:00 or 11:00 at night, a time limit of two hours was set.
Senator Pearson: A clear message is being sent that we need to structure and give our witnesses the sense that they can only speak for a certain length of time. They may run over anyway, but we can give them the message that it should not be too long.
Senator Stratton: The chair of the Finance Committee, Senator Murray, does not feed people. They get hungry and want to end the meeting so they can go home to eat.
Senator Carney: That is a problem for the National Finance Committee. I am thinking about people who travel long distances.
Senator Stratton: I am teasing again.
Senator Carney: Janis Johnson had a better sense of humour.
Senator Stratton: That is because she went along with you.
Senator Carney: Seriously, though, I have travelled for five to six hours on a plane from the coast with witnesses who no one heard, and then they had to go back home. Ten days or two weeks later they had to spend another three days travelling across the country. I think our rules should reflect consideration for witnesses, not us. We are here to serve.
Senator Stratton: I am all for it.
The Chairman: Not only that, but our Aboriginal custom is that when people come, you automatically feed them.
Senator Carney: The Irish do that, too.
Senator Sibbeston: Are we planning to continue the study that we had begun?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Sibbeston: Are we likely to have witnesses appear before us?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Sibbeston: I would suggest that our staff work with witnesses to prepare them for their presentations. In the last session, there were instances where witnesses did not seem to be very well prepared or did not seem to be focused on the issues we were dealing with. I think it would be to our advantage to have our staff work with all witnesses to ensure that their presentations are focused and on topic and are well organized. It will help us so we do not spend a lot of time. It is for their sake, too. I sometimes find it embarrassing to see that people are totally unfocused. They should have put more work and more effort into their presentations. I offer that to you as a suggestion.
The Chairman: Before we get into that, let us complete Motion No. 13, the time slot for regular meetings. Is it all right the way it is?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We are now into other business and Senator Sibbeston's remarks.
Senator Pearson: I want to go on record as stating that I know the staff have worked hard with these witnesses. Some people do not listen to the advice they are given, so I would not like it to be thought that they had not done the work they were trying to do.
The Chairman: That is a very good point.
Senator Pearson: Yes, it is. Maybe they have to be a little more directed than they are.
The Chairman: Is there other business?
Senator Pearson: The first report.
The Chairman: In Motion No. 6, the financial report was dealt with, which is the first report.
Senator Pearson: The report has been moved in that we authorized it.
The Chairman: The financial report.
Senator Stratton: Has the first report been tabled?
The Chairman: Not yet.
Senator Stratton: We have to approve it to get it tabled.
Senator Pearson: We just did that in Motion No. 6, the financial report.
The Chairman: Then I can report it tomorrow. Perfect. We have completed the agenda. I thank you all very much.
Senator Christensen: Do we meet next Tuesday?
The Chairman: The steering committee will meet next week, and then we will provide committee members with an agenda. We will not meet next week. We have to get everything organized in the Senate and get our first report done. The steering committee will meet and come back for your approval because the steering committee only makes recommendations. The full committee has the final say.
Senator Christensen: Can we look at our study proposal?
Senator Pearson: As we had discussed before, because of the delays caused by the prorogation, we will probably do some video conferencing rather than travel. It will take us ages to get a travel budget approved.
The Chairman: That will be discussed at the next meeting.
Senator Carney: May I point out that for two years now I have been battling to ensure that senators who appear via video conference with their witnesses should be marked present, and they are not. If I meet with people in Vancouver and bring them in to have a meeting with the Fisheries Committee or this committee, I am marked present by video conference but absent from the Senate, although everyone else is present. The witnesses are present. I am recorded in Hansard, but I am marked absent.
I have been fighting with my colleagues on the Rules Committee to say that if I am on committee business — not in Florida — studying Aboriginal issues and I am with witnesses in a video conference, I should be marked present like the rest of the committee members.
Senator Pearson: I think that has to do with Motion No. 10, designation of members travelling on committee business.
Senator Carney: No, it does not.
Senator Pearson: No. 10 states that ``any member of the Committee is on `official business''' if they are attending an event related to the work of the committee.
Senator Stratton: The senator is saying that she is marked absent from the Senate while she is on official business but not attending the Senate. That is the difference.
Senator Carney: I have made several submissions before the Rules Committee to say that if a senator is in Whitehorse with Aboriginal people and presents something that deals with them — because sometimes they like to have you there — that senator should be marked present because everyone else is. You are actually probably more useful.
Senator Stratton: We would have no one in the chamber.
Senator Carney: That is not true.
Do you see what I have to put up with? Who cares if there is no one in the chamber, if they are with the witnesses in their regions doing their work.
Senator Stratton: The media.
Senator Carney: No, they do not. The media would be happy to see you.
The Chairman: That will be a very good discussion point.
Senator Stratton: Yes, it will be. I move adjournment of the committee.
The committee adjourned.