Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Human Rights
Issue 2 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday February 24, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights met this day at 3:30 p.m. to consider a draft budget.
Senator Shirley Maheu (Chairman) presiding.
[Translation]
The Chairman: We have only 25 minutes to spare. Three member of the Senate Official Languages Committee are in attendance and must leave for a meeting scheduled to begin at 4:00 p.m. I have requested a 15- to 20-minute meeting to adopt two items, the first of which is the budget for the coming year. The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration needs the budget this week.
Our current mandate concludes on June 27. We must table our report by this deadline. The budget proposal before you covers the period from April 1 to June 27, that is right up until the end of our mandate.
We have received an invitation to attend a meeting of the Ligue des droits et des libertés du Saguenay-Lac St-Jean. An invitation has been extended to three senators and to one staff member to attend a round table session. I believe a staff member has already been designated to attend.
[English]
Has everyone received an invitation? I do not know if they are inviting the other two senators or if we will have to name two senators.
Senator Rossiter: Senator Beaudoin will be anxious to go.
The Chairman: I would expect that, yes.
[Translation]
It is unfortunate to have to choose between Italy and the Saguenay-Lac St-Jean. There is always the steering committee, but Senator LaPierre is not present. Shall we decide then to have Senator Ferretti Barth go?
Senator Ferretti Barth: No, we need to ask the other senators.
The Chairman: We have some meetings scheduled in March. Before we submit the two remaining names, we will wait until everyone is present.
[English]
Senator Ferretti Barth: Has someone called Senator Beaudoin's office?
The Chairman: We can do it during the next meeting when he is here. I understood that we were to decide that at this meeting, however we are to decide on the budget today.
The second half of the budget concerns New York.
[Translation]
Senator Ferretti Barth: Madam Chairman, I may be away in March. Perhaps my name could be considered at the next meeting.
[English]
The Chairman: The second trip is to the United Nations in New York. We have budgeted for six senators and two staff. However, we may not be allowed all of the money we have requested because it only covers expenses until June. We could have other plans and other mandates after that, and they could take us beyond June. If the Senate gives us the mandate I anticipate the native women. The minister has asked for a special study.
Senator Rossiter: That is in next year's budget. We do not need to bother talking about that right now.
The Chairman: We must worry about the extra money for next year because from June 2003 until April 1, 2004, this committee will not be allotted any more money. I cannot ask for any more funds. I have no idea what our mandate will be.
It is a very ambiguous situation. We will have to ask them to put some money aside for us.
Senator Rossiter: Was consideration given to the witnesses that have travelled here?
The Chairman: Yes, I am getting to that. That is item Number 2.
We must pass this budget temporarily. The committee wants it this week. It does not mean that we will receive the $52,000, but at least it will be before the Internal Standing Senate Committee on the Economy.
Senator Beaudoin, we have allowed expenses for a trip to Saguenay-Lac St-Jean.
[Translation]
A Round Table sponsored by the Ligue des droits et libertés du Saguenay Lac-St-Jean.
The second trip is a fact-finding mission to the United Nations in New York. We are looking to send six senators and two staff members.
Senator Beaudoin: The amount requested is for professional services?
The Chairman: For the drafting of the report.
Senator Beaudoin: Will we be hiring someone to do that?
The Chairman: No, I do not believe so. It will be drafted internally.
Senator Beaudoin: And what is the subject matter of the report?
The Chairman: The report will focus on the American Convention.
Ms. Line Gravel, Clerk of the Committee: The committee will report on our study of the American Convention on Human Rights. The funds requested will cover the cost of publishing the report, together most likely with a press release.
The second item covers the costs of a French-English editor. It is always nice to have that.
Senator Beaudoin: When is the committee set to table its report on the American Convention?
Ms. Gravel: Most likely in June. I believe the deadline for reporting is June 27.
The Chairman: That is correct. The committee must report no later than June 27.
Senator Beaudoin: Were we not supposed to report on the treaty implementation process?
The Chairman: No, we still have to hear from additional witnesses. You have asked to hear from three witnesses.
Senator Beaudoin: I thought the focus would be on the implementation process. What is happening with that? Is it a dead issue?
The Chairman: Our current mandate does not cover that topic. We cannot get to it before June 27. However, it does not mean that we cannot do so at a later date.
Senator Beaudoin: It makes no sense. We agreed to attend to this by June 27.
The Chairman: As part of our future mandate?
Senator Beaudoin: We agreed to this previously.
Clearly, we have the right to focus our attention on this. I have nothing against the Convention, but I would like the committee to present a report. I have no problem with that.
The Chairman: That is all our mandate provides for at this time.
Senator Beaudoin: The committee was given a mandate and it was agreed that we should wrap up our work before June 24.
The Chairman: No. You began your study of the American Convention, but you did not subsequently undertake another study.
Senator Beaudoin: No. When we began sitting, we said we needed to wrap up our review of the treaty implementation process, but we never actually did that.
The Chairman: The subject came up for discussion, but the committee never actually agreed to anything.
Senator Beaudoin: Yes, it did.
The Chairman: Since I have been here?
Senator Beaudoin: Yes.
We have yet to complete the report.
Ms. Gravel: We began our work on the American Convention and we agreed to complete this phase of our work.
The Chairman: We agreed to defer the Laviolette report.
Senator Beaudoin: We never got around to the Laviolette report.
The Chairman: We never even started our study.
Senator Beaudoin: We must attend to that.
The Chairman: We do not have a mandate as far as the Laviolette report is concerned. What does our mandate say?
Senator Beaudoin: It clearly says that we must complete our work on the Laviolette report. I am not imagining things.
Ms. Gravel: The Laviolette report was ordered during the previous session. After we received the report, Parliament was prorogued. We distributed the report, since it had been commissioned, but from that point forward, we did not have a mandate, since Parliament had been prorogued.
Senator Beaudoin: Everything falls by the wayside.
The Clerk: Yes, when prorogation occurs. It is a matter of submitting a new request to the Senate to examine the Laviolette report.
Senator Beaudoin: I thought we had already done that.
Ms. Gravel: We will conclude our study of the American Convention and then we will move on to the Laviolette report.
Senator Beaudoin: That is fine for the American Convention. There were costs associated with the report, but no matter. However, I cannot understand how the Laviolette report was cast aside.
The Chairman: The reason was the prorogation of Parliament. Moreover, we did not submit another request to examine the Laviolette report. We will not get around to this until June 27.
Senator Beaudoin: Get around to what?
The Chairman: To the Laviolette report.
Senator Beaudoin: This is ridiculous.
The Chairman: I want to examine the Laviolette report, but I cannot go against the will of the committee.
Senator Beaudoin: I agree with you. For when is our visit to the Lac-St-Jean region scheduled?
The Chairman: For April 16.
Senator Beaudoin: I have been invited to attend a round table on April 16? Why was I invited?
The Chairman: That is correct. I was not aware that three senators had been invited.
Senator Beaudoin: I have accepted the invitation and I am prepared to go.
The Chairman: The Senate is not sitting that week.
Senator Beaudoin: Fine, then. I do not have a problem with that.
Ms. Gravel: We have the required funds.
The Chairman: The invitations have already been extended for the Saguenay trip. Who is the third Senate invitee?
Ms. Gravel: I will contact the Ligue to find out.
Senator Beaudoin: The Ligue contacted me. I hesitated because I am unfamiliar with this organization. Apparently, it is a Quebec-based group. Does the committee have any objections?
The Chairman: Three senators have already accepted the invitation. If the committee has no objections, we have the necessary funds.
Senator Beaudoin: I have no objections. I have already accepted the invitation.
Ms. Gravel: I will contact the Ligue.
The Chairman: I accepted their invitation as well, but I can always use my own budget to cover my expenses.
[English]
Senator Rossiter: Will you find out whom they invited?
The Chairman: Yes, we will phone them.
Senator Rossiter: Will you do that right away?
The Chairman: Yes. We know that both Senator Beaudoin and I have been invited as well as one of our staff.
Senator Beaudoin: What about Senator Joyal?
The Chairman: He is not a member of the committee. We will have to find out. I did not know that they had called you.
Senator Beaudoin: As far as this is concerned, I have no problem. Go ahead with it.
The Chairman: Senator Beaudoin we have to go back to the Senate with this. We have no choice in the matter.
Senator Beaudoin: I hope that we recover the Laviolette report.
The Chairman: Maybe not by June, but we will recover it. Do you want two witnesses or three? We cannot have three. We will discuss that in the second section.
Senator Beaudoin: We are beginning to hear from witnesses, including someone from Trinidad.
The Chairman: That has not been passed and he is not coming. However, I will get to that at the next item.
The second item on the budget is the United Nations in New York City in May.
Senator Rossiter: Was any consideration given to having the witnesses come here instead of eight people travelling there?
The Chairman: Yes. Do you mean from New York?
Senator Beaudoin: Yes.
Senator Rossiter: Yes.
The Chairman: We have not discussed New York yet.
Senator Rossiter: You said that we are at it now.
The Chairman: We are now at the item on New York. Do you mean to say that you would like to bring the United Nations committee to Ottawa? I do not think they travel.
Senator Rossiter: Whom do you plan to see in New York?
Ms Gravel: We will meet with our ambassador and his office will organize a meeting with the United Nations Committee on Human Rights. The subject will be the ratifications of international treaties. There is the American convention to be considered but you must be informed of how we do that.
Senator Rossiter: Would we see one person or three people?
Ms Gravel: The two days of meeting will begin with our ambassador and with a briefing by his staff. After the meeting with our ambassador you will meet with the members of their committee. Our ambassador will help to organize those meetings.
Senator Beaudoin: Which day will this be?
Ms Gravel: It will be in May.
The Chairman: We have not yet decided.
Senator Beaudoin: If the trip does not interfere with the sittings of the Senate, I will say, ``Yes.''
Ms Gravel: That could happen because there is one week in May when the house does not sit.
Senator Beaudoin: I will certainly go because our work includes ratifications of certain treaties.
The Chairman: That was our mandate.
Ms Gravel: That will be subject and we will meet many people, perhaps ambassadors from other countries, to hear their opinions. At this time we can only supply you with general information but we are working on the details.
The Chairman: If the committee is interested in going to New York, we have to put the money in now because the trip will be before June, possibly in May.
Senator Beaudoin: Is it possible to arrange the trip for a week when the Senate will not be sitting?
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Beaudoin: Under that condition, I will say, ``Yes.''
The Chairman: Okay. Senator Chaput?
Senator Chaput: I agree with Senator Beaudoin.
The Chairman: Senator Rossiter?
Senator Rossiter: How many people have we budgeted for?
The Chairman: We have six senators and two staff in the budget.
Senator Ferretti Barth: That is most of us.
The Chairman: The budget allows for six.
Senator Chaput: How many people are on this committee?
Senator Ferretti Barth: There are nine. It is difficult to determine how many people will not attend.
Senator Beaudoin: If it involves the ratification of treaties, you can count on me. This is what we are studying.
The Chairman: You are always here.
Senator Ferretti Barth: If they do not participate in the committee, why must we take care of them? One either comes or does not come.
The Chairman: We will be asking the full committee about this.
Senator Ferretti Barth: That is the democratic way.
The Chairman: Could I have a motion to pass the budget, including New York and the Saguenay?
Senator Beaudoin: How much does the Saguenay cost?
The Chairman: It will cost $6,000. If there are not sufficient funds, the senator may go to the Saguenay on his own. We have a budget to maintain.
The Senate does not normally do that with committee work. The committee can decide what they want to do if they find that the funds are not sufficient.
Senator Beaudoin: Agreed.
The Chairman: We have to present this to the Internal Committee.
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: I hesitate a little about that item.
The Chairman: About the $6,000 or the trip to New York?
Senator Beaudoin: No, I do not have a problem with that request. It is quite reasonable. I will move the motion.
[English]
The Chairman: The second item concerns future witnesses. Senator Beaudoin, you requested three witnesses. Mr. Bantey has been confirmed. We have received a letter from the Canadian Lawyers for International Human Rights asking if they may appear. Judge Trindade has informed us that he is unable to attend.
Senator Beaudoin: He will be in Washington in March.
The Chairman: He will be in Canada this spring and has planned another visit in October.
Ms. Gravel: They are not sure. He does not have any plans at the moment.
Senator Beaudoin: At first he said, ``I will be in Washington, and I will be very pleased to be invited to appear before the Human Rights Committee.'' Now he has changed his mind. It is October?
The Chairman: Yes. Other witnesses will be Allan Gotlieb and Professors McEvoy and Fleming from the University of New Brunswick.
Senator Beaudoin: If we are able to have Mr. Gotlieb as a witness we should jump on the opportunity; he is very good.
The Chairman: All right. We will approach Mr. Gotlieb. Shall we have John McEvoy and Don Fleming from New Brunswick? They co-authored Canada, Human Rights, and the OAS.
Senator Beaudoin: I would say ``Yes.''
Senator Rossiter: Would they appear together?
The Chairman: Yes. I do not think that we want to delay the report or the presentation before the Senate.
Senator Beaudoin: When will this be?
The Chairman: It will be at the March 31, 2003 meeting. Maureen McTeer, who would have been very interesting, is not available before Easter.
Senator Beaudoin: Are those witnesses speaking on many subjects?
The Chairman: They are speaking on the American Convention on Human Rights. However, that does preclude us asking another kind of question.
Senator Beaudoin: I will do that.
The Chairman: I expected that.
Senator Beaudoin: I will vote for that, then.
The Chairman: We will be meeting on March 17, 2003 with Mr. Bantey from CLAIHR, the Canadian Lawyers for International Human Rights. We will meet again on March 31, 2003, hopefully with Mr. Gotlieb and the two authors of the Canada, Human Rights, and the OAS.
Senator Rossiter: What is scheduled for March 24?
The Chairman: On March 24 there will be a meeting of Official Languages Committee. We alternate with that committee.
On April 16, 2003, during the week when we are not sitting, there will be the Saguenay visit.
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: We are traveling to the Saguenay on the 16th. Correct?
The Chairman: Yes, on April 16.
[English]
The Minister of Indian Affairs is going to ask the Senate to undertake a study on native women.
It is likely that we could spend the rest of the year hearing the native women's groups. Perhaps in the fall we could travel to the groups that are unable to come to us, that is if the Senate gives us the mandate.
This subject is in abeyance until we get the mandate. I have been approached, and I have approached you, to see if you are willing to undertake a study, if the Senate gives us the mandate. The response has been unanimous except for Senator Rossiter, who is waiting for her leadership to direct her. In any event that will be done before we get the mandate, if we get it at all.
Senator Beaudoin: I have no objection to studying the status of women among the Aboriginal peoples, but it is not urgent.
The Chairman: No, it is not urgent. However, the minister will be asking the Senate to undertake the study. If the Senate agrees, I am not sure that we will we be chosen.
Senator Beaudoin: Will it be for many days?
The Chairman: We do not know what the request will be.
Senator Beaudoin: We may spend one year studying it.
The Chairman: We do not know what the request will be. Let us wait and find out.
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: I would prefer it if we wait. I am not opposed, all the more so in that I support the amendment recognizing equality of status for aboriginals. We settled that issue when we adopted an amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman: This pertains to aboriginals living on reserves.
Senator Beaudoin: We cannot object to that.
[English]
The Chairman: If the Senate offers the mandate to our committee —
[Translation]
Senator Beaudoin: I would be tempted to defer that until the fall.
The Chairman: It all depends on what the minister requests of the committee. We could always refer the matter to another committee, although the Aboriginal Affairs Committee has too much on its plate as it is.
The Chairman: Have we agreed to hear witnesses?
Senator Beaudoin: Yes.
The committee adjourned.