Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 10 - Evidence - Morning session
WINNIPEG, Tuesday, October 21, 2003
The Senate Standing Committee on Official Languages met this day at 9:04 a.m. to study education in the official language minority communities.
The Honourable Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: It is a great pleasure for us to be today in Winnipeg.
Before we start the meetings and hear our witnesses, I would like to introduce my colleagues.
Dr. Wilbert Keon is Deputy Chair of the Committee of Official Languages. I am sure that most of you have known and heard about Dr. Keon. He is a heart surgeon with a great heart, and he is very valuable member of this Committee.
[Translation]
In this region, I probably don't need to introduce Senator Chaput, our Franco-Manitoban, a very good colleague whom we very much appreciate.
Allow me to introduce Senator Gerald Comeau, from St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia, Senator Viola Léger, an actress from New Brunswick, her country, whom you undoubtedly know as the Sagouine, the role she has played for 30 years.
Senator Léger: Thirty years, I believe.
The Chair: I also introduce Ms. Marie-Ève Hudon, our assistant, the committee's researcher, Mr. Tõnu Onu, the committee clerk, and Mr. Richard Morel, my special research assistant. If you have any questions, you may put them to them.
In starting off, I would like to thank the Centre culturel franco-manitobain.
These meetings outside Canada, these public hearings, if I may say, are a first for a parliamentary official languages committee. I believe it was time.
Here is a bit of background on the Official Languages Committee. Since the Official Languages Act, the committee has always been a joint committee, that is to say one with the participation of the House of Commons and the Senate.
For a year now, the Senate has had its own committee. We are lucky to be holding these hearings outside Ottawa.
Committee members have decided to examine education in French in the minority communities because education is fundamentally important for survival.
The committee is proud to show its interest in the needs of the francophone communities of Manitoba and Saskatchewan, from whom we will hear tomorrow. Today, all our witnesses are from Manitoba. We will hear from provincial government officials, community representatives and delegates from the education sector.
We will start off immediately because you have not come here to hear me. You are here to listen to our witnesses. Mr. Daniel Boucher, who is from the Société franco-manitobaine, will give us a general overview of the Franco- Manitoban community.
Mr. Daniel Boucher, President and Executive Director, Société franco-manitobaine: It is an enormous pleasure for us to welcome you here today. We are honoured to have you in the community and to be able to share our ideas on education in French in Manitoba.
Today I am going to paint a picture of the francophone community starting with an initiative that we introduced in 2001.
I ask you to excuse me; sometimes it takes me a little time because I have problems with asthma.
You have before you a folder entitled Agrandir l'espace francophone au Manitoba. I am going to give you some background, in this context, to explain where the community stands and how it has changed. This is important for what you're going to discuss today and in a pan-Canadian context because the francophone and Acadian communities have changed enormously.
We have a new face. It is not the same community as it was 20 or 30 years ago. It is a community with different influences. It is beyond a doubt a community that remains francophone, strong and vibrant.
The community has new faces, as a result of immigration and exogamous couples. This is another challenge we're working with.
It is in this context that we have prepared this 50- not 5-, but 50-year strategy for Manitoba's francophone community.
The strategy is based on five major directions. You will find them in the folder on page 3. I am going to talk about this strategy and its directions today. I'll try to prepare the way for the other presentations.
If you go to page 8 of the folder, you will see some disturbing statistics. We in the community looked at them and thought we had to act. That's why we established this strategy. We have to have different directions.
In the chart on page 8, there are three lines that give you an idea about the community. If you look at the language- spoken-in-the-home line, it is falling. That can be disturbing.
On the other hand, there is the entire phenomenon of mixed marriages. A lot of people have married anglophones. The language spoken in the home is often English because the spouse does not speak French.
What we have seen is that these parents choose our French schools. That is encouraging. We are not seeing them leave. Many of these parents send their children to French schools to pass French onto their children.
Despite the fact they speak English in the home, they nevertheless generally choose Francophonie. That is very important.
This figure can be disturbing, but, at the same time, it is not the end of the world if you look at it in context.
Once again, French as a mother tongue is declining. Obviously the birth rate is falling and we cannot do much about that. That is the choice of individuals. The birth rate is obviously a major concern for us. On the other hand, we're studying this point. When we talk about mother tongue, we have to be careful how we define it.
Second, when we define mother tongue, some definitions in the census should perhaps be reviewed. We tend to put people in boxes, in pigeonholes, and that can be disturbing as well.
The third line you see, the one at the top, is the most important. It's knowledge of French in Manitoba. It's rising. Approximately 10 per cent of the population of Manitoba speaks French and English. That statistic is very encouraging.
Approximately 4.8 per cent of these people are francophones, the others are anglophones we have learned French. Some 16,000 to 17,000 students are in immersion schools. We have 5,000 students in our francophone school system. That is quite a few people who value French.
Our objective is to attach value to the French language and to ensure it continues to grow and be more vital in the future.
In that context, I'm now going to return to the directions and talk to you generally about the five directions.
The first direction is full francophone continuity. This means reinforcing the institutions we currently have and acquiring the tools to continue growing and developing as francophones. Today you will hear witnesses talk to you about concepts such as early childhood. They'll refer to the entire continuum from early childhood to the postsecondary level, which is absolutely essential for communities such as ours. These are concepts that will enable our community to continue growing and developing.
We also want to reinforce what we have. That takes resources. The idea is not to copy what is being done in English. It is to have things done for us, by us, in the francophone community. These are very important concepts with regard to francophone continuity.
We have to be able to carve out our own future. It is not a matter of translating, but rather of making and creating our own directions.
We have taken a step back in the past few years. Assimilation has done some damage. It is important to have adequate resources to do a certain amount of catching up. We have a great deal to do to take us to a level where our community has all possible tools to continue growing and developing. We live in Manitoba, and, as is the case in many other francophone, Acadian and other communities in Canada, we are in the minority.
We do not see ourselves as victims. We are people who are part of a great community. We are very proud to live in Manitoba. We are partners with the majority, and we are good partners. We need to find ways to work together. The idea is to have ways to find where the minority language community can grow and develop within that majority. We will not change the situation, and we have no intention of doing so. These concepts are very important for a community, a community that has its place, that takes its place and that wants to grow and develop.
The second direction is to give mixed families an affinity for French. I referred earlier to the phenomenon of exogamy. Seven out of 10 children in our French schools are from exogamous marriages. Seven out of 10!
This is a phenomenon we have to take into account. We cannot turn our backs and disregard it. We have to find ways to work in this context. All kinds of ideas go with this phenomenon. We can do more — we are already doing a lot — to facilitate matters; we can provide more assistance in enabling the spouse who does not speak French to learn French. We can find ways in our schools to include anglophone parents, without compromising the entire idea of a French-language school. There are all kinds of ways to look at the situation.
This takes time. It takes creativity and courage. It is not easy. This is where we stand as a community. We have made these observations. When we make an observation, the idea is to look at the situation square on and act accordingly.
We want to give mixed marriages an affinity for French because this is a reality. Today it is seven out of 10, but it will probably be nine out of 10 in less than 10 years.
When we look at the situation, we want to reinforce our community. We want to ensure that these children will come to our schools, that they will study in French at the postsecondary level and that they will develop in our communities from cultural, economic and other standpoints. So it is important to have them and to include them in our community. They are very important concepts.
We are doing a lot of things in these first two directions. The first is important for the continuum, and the second as well. It is important to start at an early age. You will hear experts in a moment. I am not an expert. I can assure you that it is important to take charge of our young people at the very start when it comes to learning French. You have to give them an affinity for French.
Whether in a mixed marriage or not, it is important that we have the tools to do so and to take them from the age of two or three to the postsecondary level because we have extraordinary institutions in our community. The idea now is to find the best ways to include people so that they are part of this.
The third direction is selecting newcomers. We have done an enormous amount of work in this regard in recent years. Once again, I come back to what I said at the start. We have a community that is changing. We have a community that has changed. It is no longer the homogeneous community we had. It is no longer a community of Franco-Manitoban descent. It is a community that is inclusive and has various faces.
It is important that we work in this context and that we adapt. That is not easy. No one says it is easy. But we have to see and anticipate. We have to ensure we have the means to include and welcome increasing numbers of new immigrants to our province and francophones from around the world.
We can do that. We have the institutions to do it. We are establishing an intake structure. As a community, the idea is to spread the word and say that it's important to welcome these people.
This is a direction we have taken in the past few years. And the Société franco-manitobaine is very proud to have received a certificate of civic merit last week from the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship Canada for the community's work. We received it on behalf of the community because, in the past four or five years, we have done an enormous amount of work together on this matter.
The fourth direction is closer relations with bilingual persons. Ten per cent of Manitoba's population speaks both official languages. We need to take advantage of that situation. We need to work with anglophones who speak French and who have an affinity for French. We have to promote French, promote this important language, be it in Western Canada, Acadia or wherever. It is important that the French language be valued and that it retain its value.
Many anglophones who learn French can help us. They can be allies in advancing this beautiful language. That's very important for us.
Lastly, there is anglophone awareness. As I said, we are in the minority. Francophones represent 5 per cent of the population of Manitoba. We have to get along with the majority. It helps a bit to get along with them when there is 95 per cent on the other side.
We have developed good relations with the majority. Some are partners. Some are allies. They talk about Francophonie with their anglophone friends. They talk about Francophonie in English to anglophones. They tell them that Francophonie is important. All that help is absolutely essential for the community to grow and develop.
Now I will come back to the background; it sets the backdrop somewhat for all the sectors and clienteles in our community.
The education sector is an absolutely critical sector in our community. I referred to the continuum a moment ago. It's absolutely critical to support this point of view. I referred to the postsecondary level a moment ago. We have an outstanding postsecondary institution in Manitoba. The idea is to grow and continue the good work we have already done.
We really need more resources so that things are done for us and by us, in our community. We are off to a good start. We in Manitoba have a good reputation across Canada, a reputation for being a well organized community that works well together. We are very proud of that.
This background is really very ambitious. It is scary. There are subjects in this background which are not concepts. We have never talked about the subjects in the past. Today, the community has had the courage to really say what its situation was. For the future, it wants to take very concrete steps in that direction.
In closing, I am sure you will hear lots of good ideas today from my colleagues in the community, who will paint you a picture of a very important sector, education. They will give you an overview of its importance and how it is critical to support the communities in this sector and at all levels so that we are able to respond in 50 years, to come back in 50 years and so that the person who reports — it will not be me — can say that we have succeeded because we took action and we had the support of people like you. In our case, we have had the support of the federal government and the Province of Manitoba. All these subjects are absolutely critical.
We want partners. We want to work with you and rely on your support. We know we have it from people like you. So I thank you very much.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Boucher. Senators, we have 10 minutes for a round of questions. I am going to start with the committee's Deputy Chair, Senator Keon.
[English]
Senator Keon, I should have said it a while ago when I introduced you, but I just learned that you have been elected President of the International Surgical Group. Congratulations.
With that, I would a now, it is your turn to ask questions.
Senator Keon: Thank you, Mr. Boucher, for a very interesting presentation. It seems to me that the major problem confronting the francophone community outside Quebec is indeed education. The educational systems for primary school education and throughout high school and so forth are extremely good. My own children were in the French education system and it was excellent.
However, following graduation from high school, they do not have a great deal of access to post-secondary education. If they live in the province of Quebec, they can do most things. In Ottawa, they can do most things. They can do many things in New Brunswick. However, apart from that, they really cannot get a university education in the French language.
I know that Minister Dion is trying to build bridges in the educational process. I am aware of the links between the University of Ottawa and some of the other francophone universities. However, it seems to me that the resources — particularly of the French universities — are not being used the way they should with extended programs into the University of Manitoba and so forth.
Could you expand a bit on how you think this could be corrected?
[Translation]
Mr. Boucher: I am not an expert in the field. Ms. Gagné, from the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, will definitely be able to tell you about the postsecondary level, and my colleagues as well.
I would like to give you some context. We are trying to build a broader community which will meet needs when students reach the postsecondary level and which will also afford people the opportunity to use French in the various fields such as health, for example.
There is a lack of human resources in a number of fields. We want to train more human resources to provide services. There is a kind of wheel being prepared. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses and so on. Francophones are not the only ones.
We want to create postsecondary programs to enable us to meet all those needs. We already have the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface. I have only given you one example, but there are a number of other ones.
We need to use our postsecondary institutions and school system in a strategic way in order to meet specific needs and provide the services necessary for our community. Once again, the continuum begins, perhaps a little later, but it is in that perspective that we want to do it.
You are right in saying that education is central and absolutely essential. There can be no doubt about that, but you need the necessary resources. Do not forget that we are working in a minority context, and we have different needs. My colleagues can provide you with more details on the subject, but that is not the same context.
I will come back to the fact that it is not the same thing as simply considering the matter on a pro-rated basis and saying that University X will receive $12 million and University Y $15 million and you will receive the pro-rated amount. We have an enormous amount of development to do. We live in a different situation. We have our own programming to develop. It is the same situation for our schools and for the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine. We have to have things done for us, by us. That's absolutely essential.
Senator Comeau: I will continue along the lines of Senator Keon. The education question is absolutely essential to the community's advancement. There is also the question of the community itself and its attitude toward continuation and promotion of French in the community.
Is your Franco-Manitoban community maintaining the value of French? To be more specific, do your service stations, barbers, hairdressers, people in the community have this attitude that French offers value? When they go to hospitals, when they watch television or listen to the radio, and it is virtually all in English, where does your Franco- Manitoban community stand in that context?
Mr. Boucher: That is a complex question. The Franco-Manitoban community has a fairly unusual history. We have had ups and downs. A few years ago, people said we would disappear from here. Thanks to a lot of people, we are still here, and, thanks to them, we will continue to be here and, once again thanks to them, we'll still be here for many years.
Yes, there are challenges for the community in a minority context. There can be no doubt about that, but we are acquiring more and more tools at all levels, in all sectors. It's absolutely important to acquire tools.
Let's look at economic affairs. Five years ago, very little was happening in that area. Now we have increasing numbers of francophones entrepreneurs. We have increasing numbers of people who advertise in both official languages. We have increasing numbers of people who do business in French everywhere, in Canada and around the world. They are proud to do it.
These are concepts that are developing, which were always there, but which are continuing to develop. We have a community which has had hard times. As I said at the start, we do not see ourselves as victims. The community takes charge of itself, and we see that in our villages. Yes, there is English around us; that is part of everyday life. We cannot disregard that. No one says life is perfect.
More and more people view French as a major asset. With all those people, including anglophones who have learned and now use French, that adds to the value of French in Manitoba. That is very important.
In Winnipeg, signage will completely change in the next two years. They are going to change all the signs. They are going to make a new system. It was automatic that it would be in both official languages. It is no longer a question now, and people accept it.
I was at a meeting last week and we talked about one sector that was going to have signage. They showed us a sample and it was in English only. An anglophone raised his hand and asked where the French was.
What I said earlier about our relationship with the majority is that there are a lot of people giving French value. The Mayor of Winnipeg speaks French. We have a number of ministers and members who speak French.
The entire context is really favourable for the community. We have built very good relations, we respect each other and we work very well together. We have 15, 16 or 17 bilingual municipalities. That is quite impressive for Manitoba. Some regions are very anglophone, but they declare themselves bilingual municipalities.
All that adds value to French, improves signage and means that the language will be viewed in a very positive way in three, four or five years. It is already, but we are continuing to build.
Senator Comeau: Very impressive. Thank you, Mr. Boucher.
Senator Léger: What a pleasure to hear you! I think it is realistic when you say that seven out of 10 marriages are exogamous.
The last chart, where you show that knowledge of French is on the upswing. I find that encouraging because that is the situation today. You cannot avoid it.
It is rare to see a rising line on a statistical chart on knowledge of French in the minority communities. It is always the opposite. The statistics tell us we are all being assimilated, that we are losing our language. Is the reason that we do not ask the right questions? Is it that Statistics Canada does not have a 50-year vision, as you have?
I am astounded. It is no more complicated than that. I find it very real that French should be promoted. I agree with you that it will not put an end to our struggles to add hospitals in French, to take a step, but the situation is what it is.
Last night I saw Ms. Morris on television; I am quite amazed. She has seven children, and they all married anglophones.
When I taught in Grand Falls, New Brunswick, the opposite happened. The large anglophone families married francophones, which means that the children were bilingual. I find that that is the reality.
In conclusion, you say that that is promotion of French. Is it possible that Statistics Canada makes us feel it as well?
Mr. Boucher: That is a very good point, Senator Léger. That is part of a fight we had. I said that the community had changed. The realities have changed, but, to be polite, it is time Statistics Canada changed as well because this is very hard.
I am going to give you my example. It is going to answer these census questions. I am married to an anglophone. My children will choose at one point. I am married to an anglophone of Italian extraction and she does not speak a lot of French. The language we speak most often at home is English.
I am President and Executive Director of the Société franco-manitobaine. In the census, I have to answer that the language most often spoken in the home is English, but that does not alter the fact that I do what I do and I am what I am. However, it takes away something from my identity in that I have to say it because it is true. I am a good Canadian. We have to answer the questions honestly. It is annoying to do it because it is not really the reality of who I am, if you understand me.
That is what is a bit hard in all this. There are a lot of questions that are not consistent with the reality of seven out of 10, people who make a choice in favour of French.
All that is not counted. What they count is the language spoken in the home, the mother tongue. They should go into other categories which would really show what the community is, the value of French in that community. I think there should be statistics for that.
Senator Léger: Perhaps you could send your little book.
Mr. Boucher: I will do it.
The Chair: I would like to take the remaining minute to speak, in another connection, about the funding of the Société franco-manitobaine. Not necessarily how you receive your funding, but do you have a say when you negotiate the Official Languages in Education Programs? Are you consulted? I believe there are agreements coming.
Mr. Boucher: There is only the Canada-communities agreement. We are negotiating with the Canadian government. For that agreement, the Société franco-manitobaine is negotiating directly with the Department of Canadian Heritage.
The other agreements have always been a problem. The Official Languages in Education Program is negotiated between two governments. We respect that.
On the other hand, although there is been more openness in recent years, we have always criticized, to a certain degree, the fact that the two governments do not necessarily consult the community and the school system more particularly on its very specific needs.
It is a consultation that's going quite quickly. I believe it has to be expanded much further. If we want programs for and by Manitoba francophones, they have to be consulted. So that is a problem.
There is also the last agreement, the Canada-Manitoba agreement. These are amounts of money that are negotiated, and we have not had much to say about the negotiations. The governments carefully guard their negotiating responsibilities and they are very careful about how they consult us.
The Chair: We often hear that point when we meet francophones from minority communities. I dare believe we will have the opportunity to put the question to other witnesses. That is one of the points that will be important for our report. Mr. Boucher, thank you.
I may seem like a school marm, but what can I say? I taught for 33 years. We have to stick to our schedule.
The Chair: Is Mr. Jourdain here? I would like to introduce Mr. Jourdain and Ms. Mariette Chartier. Mr. Jourdain, you work on the French-language services policy.
Perhaps you are going to give us some clarification about the consultations. You are making a brief presentation, and then we'll have a discussion.
Mr. Guy Jourdain, Special Advisor, French-Language Services Secretariat: I am very pleased to appear before the committee to talk to you about the French-language services policy of the Government of Manitoba. I will make my presentation in French.
Before discussing the policy, I would like to emphasize the socio-historical context that led to its adoption. This background consists of a number of elements that apply to the field of education.
I have circulated copies of the French-language services policy and copies of a document providing socio-historical background on the French presence in Manitoba. I wish to point out that I am expressing my personal views in that document. They are not necessarily the opinions of the Government of Manitoba.
I am going to discuss the socio-historical background right away. I am going to go back quite far because it is important to understand these facts clearly. The francophone community in Manitoba is a deeply rooted community. The French presence in Manitoba dates back to 1731. Pierre de la Vérendrye and his sons were the first European explorers to come to Western Canada. The French then established a network of forts in Western Canada to trade furs with the native people.
Following the French Regime, once the English Regime began, they established a fur trading company in Montreal called the Northwest Company. It was founded by English and Scots businessmen. At the time, they recruited their manpower in the St. Lawrence Valley.
So they recruited Catholic francophones who came here to the West to trade furs with the native people. They were called "coureurs des bois" or "voyageurs". They were hardy young men who met young native women. I do not need to draw you a picture. You know what happens.
That is how the Metis nation was born, these children from the unions between "voyageurs" or "coureurs des bois" and native women. Over the years, the Metis population acquired its own identity, its own sense of belonging.
When Manitoba entered Confederation in 1870, the Metis formed the vast majority of the population on the Prairies and in Manitoba. Half of the population of Manitoba was francophone. We had a mixed population, half of whom where francophone, half anglophone. Louis Riel and Father Noël Ritchot and others negotiated with Ottawa to protect and perpetuate Manitoba's bilingual and bicultural character in the province's Constitution.
Thus, in 1870, two provisions were incorporated in the Manitoba Act to protect the province's francophone population. Section 22 protected denominational schools, and faith and language were closely linked at the time. People said: "He who loses his faith loses his language. He who loses his language loses his faith."
So people believed at the time that, by protecting Catholic schools, they were protecting French-language education. However, cases subsequently brought before the courts showed that that was not the case.
Section 22 protected denominational schools. Section 23 made French an official language in the Legislative Assembly and in the courts, on an equal footing with English. There was a very solid base in 1870 for French to continue to be an extremely prominent language in public life in Manitoba.
In 1871, the year after Manitoba entered Confederation, the province's Legislative Assembly passed a statute creating a dual system of denominational schools. There was a Catholic school system in the parishes and Catholic, francophone villages, and an English-language Protestant school system. That system existed for some 20 years.
During that 20-year period, profound demographic changes occurred. Many immigrants from Eastern and Central Europe came and settled in Manitoba — Mennonites, Poles, Ukrainians and others — as a result of which francophones' demographic weight declined sharply.
In 1890, the provincial government of the time passed baldly anti-French statutes. The first act abolished denominational schools and created a single non-denominational school system in which English was the only language of instruction permitted. French was simply abolished from Manitoba's public schools.
That same year, the legislature passed an act entitled The Official Language Act, and I say "Language" in the singular because the official status of French before the Legislative Assembly and courts was abolished. English was made the only official language in the legislative and judicial institutions of Manitoba.
I want to emphasize — and this is an element I forgot earlier — that, when Manitoba was created in 1870 and guarantees were incorporated in the provincial Constitution to protect francophones, the idea was to make Manitoba the constitutional sister province of Quebec. The idea was to have the same protection for minorities in both Manitoba and Quebec.
I spoke to you about the act which abolished denominational schools in 1890. That act was challenged in the courts in the 1890s. The matter went to the judicial committee of the Privy Council in London on two occasions, and the federal Conservative government at the time, in 1885, introduced a bill to restore the rights and privileges of Manitoba's Catholics and Protestants.
Unfortunately, that act was never passed, and the 1896 federal election was fought on the Manitoba schools question, and Wilfrid Laurier, the new Liberal Party Leader at the time, campaigned on provincial dependence in education. The Liberals won the election in 1896.
Laurier sent one of his Quebec ministers, Israël Tartre, to negotiate with Manitoba's Liberal Premier at the time, Mr. Greenway. A compromise was reached: the Laurier-Greenway compromise.
Under the compromise, bilingual education was permitted, but not just education in English and French, but also in English and Polish, English and German and English and Ukrainian. French was put on the same footing as a number of other languages.
Religious instruction was permitted, but outside normal class hours, at 3:00 or 3:30 p.m., when school was officially out. Then half-hours were taken to teach catechism.
The Laurier-Greenway compromise was in effect for 20 years. In 1916, during the First World War, the government of the time abolished the Laurier-Greenway compromise and returned to the idea of a single non-confessional school system in which English would be the only language permitted and where the use of any other language is prohibited.
During that period, French-language education had to be provided illegally and in secret. Teachers, most of whom were nuns, taught in French at the risk of losing their teaching licence. When inspectors went to the schools, children had to hide their French books.
This was a very dark age for Manitoba francophones, and during that time, the assimilation rate became quite pronounced and minority attitudes developed in the population. People developed the automatic view that everything relating to the law, courts, government and schools took place in English. French was relegated to religious and family life.
This dark age lasted until the 1950s or 1960s. In the 1950s, French-language education gradually became permitted again, but only during a limited number of hours and only at the elementary level.
It was not until the late 1960s that there was any real reform. That reform occurred at the same time as the Laurendeau-Dunton Commission on bilingualism and biculturalism, and when the Parliament of Canada passed the first Official Languages Act. Also at that time, there was renewed support by the federal government for francophone minorities outside Quebec.
In Manitoba in 1970, the New Democratic government of Premier Schreyer passed Bill 113 making French an official language of instruction on the same footing as English. That act was a turning point.
In 1979, there was the Forêt affair, which you have no doubt heard about. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that the Act of 1890, which had abolished the official status of French in the legislative and judicial institutions, was unconstitutional. Since 1979, French has rebecome an official language in the Legislative Assembly and courts of Manitoba.
In 1982, the coming into force of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was another turning point. Since 1982, section 23 of the Charter has guaranteed the right to education in the minority language. This is now a constitutional right. For us, this was an absolutely outstanding gain, which resulted in the Division scolaire franco- manitobaine in 1994.
In 1983-1984, we in Manitoba went through an extremely difficult time in relations between the anglophone and francophone populations. We experienced a linguistic crisis. I don't have the time here to give you all the details. In essence, draft resolution was introduced in the Legislative Assembly to eliminate the need for the government to translate a series of obsolete statutes. In exchange, francophones were guaranteed the constitutional right to services in French by the provincial government.
There was an outcry of protest. Enormous tension grew between anglophones and francophones. Ultimately, the bill was never passed. The matter was put before the courts. In 1985, the Supreme Court of Canada rendered a decision in Manitoba Language Rights Reference.
In that decision, the Supreme Court ruled Manitoba's unilingual laws invalid. To prevent legal chaos, they would be deemed to be valid for the minimum period of time necessary to translate them and repass them in both languages. Since 1988, all our statutes in Manitoba have been bilingual. Our regulations have been bilingual as well since 1990.
This background, which I've presented, leads us to the adoption of the French Language Policy in 1989. In that year, the government of the time saw fit, in view of the tensions in 1983-1984, to proceed with care. Rather than guarantee services in French in a constitutional or statutory enactment, the government thought it would be more appropriate to guarantee such services in a policy, the French Language Services Policy. That policy was based on the concept of designated bilingual regions. I have circulated a revised version of that policy, which dates back to 1999.
I draw your attention to the map contained in the policy, on which you can see the designated bilingual regions. They appear in pink. They are the regions where "people see life through rose-coloured glasses."
The policy resulted in considerable progress in the 1990s, but, around 1995, the government found a number of deficiencies in the policy and its implementation. A study was commissioned to see how to improve the policy.
The government asked Judge Richard Chartier of the Manitoba Provincial Court to conduct a study on the policy. Judge Chartier published his report in May 1998. We commonly call it the Chartier Report.
In his report, Judge Chartier said that the French-language services mechanisms were not really consistent with the situation of Manitoba francophones. The initial policy had provided that, in some communities, where there was a vast anglophone population, services were supposed to be provided in French for the surrounding francophone villages.
Those services in French were to be delivered from Steinbach or Portage-la-Prairie, which, despite its French name, is a very anglophone community.
Because of the reflexive minority attitude, it didn't work. When francophones went to very anglophone communities, something clicked in their minds. They said to themselves that there was no point in speaking French in those communities and that they would not be welcome. They were welcomed like onions in a petunia patch. They didn't insist, and they spoke English.
Judge Chartier said that provincial service centres should be established in highly francophone localities and that it must be ensured that all staff in those centres spoke both languages, so that when francophones entered the centre, they would not be told that the bilingual employee had gone on vacation or was on a coffee break. Those are the fundamental principles of the Chartier Report.
Another interesting principle of the report is that, by having bilingual service centres where all staff fluently speak both languages, we can make French the language of work at those centres, which is not the case in most places in Manitoba.
The principles of the Chartier Report have been adopted in other areas. We have a health centre, which was established in Saint-Boniface a few years ago, where all the staff is bilingual. French has thus become the language of work.
The present situation is that we have made enormous progress since the policy was adopted in 1989. However, we still have a lot of work to do. We have sizeable challenges before us. Here are a few of them.
First, there is the dispersion of the population. You saw the map earlier. There are designated bilingual regions across the province, especially in the south, of course. For us as a government, it is very hard to recruit and retain qualified bilingual staff.
Second, there is the diversity of the population to which Mr. Boucher referred a moment ago. We have old stock Franco-Manitobans, including a Metis population and francophones from elsewhere in Canada. We have immigrants from around the world. We need services that are suited to the needs of our population. Mr. Boucher said that we could not be satisfied with a mere copy of what's being done in English. It must be adapted to our situation.
We need to catch up in order to achieve true equality. By true equality, I mean equality of results, not equality of means or resources. This is a particularly important principle in the field of early childhood. We want to give our young children a very sound foundation at the outset that will enable them to counter the effects of assimilation.
To be able to meet these challenges successfully, we have to rely on lasting financial support — I emphasize the word lasting — from the federal government. We must get out of the present rut in which the federal government provides assistance for a few years and then withdraws.
The Action Plan for Official Languages, the Dion Plan, is an excellent first step in the right direction. In the medium term, however, it must be ensured that federal support programs continue.
The Chair: Thank you. Senators, that presentation and the one that follows are presentations for purely information purposes. The documents circulated will be very useful to this committee. With your permission, we'll move on to the next presentation.
Mr. Jourdain, with your permission, if committee members have very specific questions on the French-Language Services Policy in Manitoba, I would ask them to send them to you or to send them to the clerk. We will stay in touch with you.
Ms. Chartier, you are going to tell us about Healthy Child Manitoba. I hope all Manitoban children are in good health.
Ms. Mariette Chartier, Healthy Child Manitoba: It is a great pleasure to be here on behalf of Healthy Child Manitoba. I've prepared a brief presentation for you, if you would like to watch the screen.
I would like to take a few minutes to explain the organizational structure of Health Child Manitoba to you and to address a few concepts behind our approach.
The Healthy Child organization has been in existence since 1994. Before that, it existed under the name of the Childhood and Youth Secretariat. In 2000, the name changed to Healthy Child Manitoba; in French, it is called Enfants en santé au Manitoba.
Healthy Child was founded to bring all the departments together to focus on the question of children. For the provincial government, the child question is very important. They decided to join forces so that they could focus on the question of children, youths and their families.
The mission of Healthy Child is essentially to ensure the welfare of children and families. We want to be the connection between the departments and the community. We want to work very closely with the communities. That is very important, especially when we are talking about the francophone community.
We also want to emphasize early childhood. Messrs. Jourdain and Boucher talked about that. I am going to talk about it some more. Research confirms that early childhood is extremely important. We can no longer deny that. The brain develops very quickly in the first years of life. It is extremely important, whether you think of language or literacy. We must keep that fact in mind.
At first we suspected that parents were the most important people for children. Now we take it for granted, and the research shows that we have to support families.
What is less obvious is that the mother's education is an important factor in child development. We must emphasize, in that context, that education is important too.
Healthy Child is managed by a ministerial council of eight ministers. I do not believe that type of governance is practised elsewhere in the country. Their purpose is to work together on the question of children. This is a very powerful structure which operates very quickly. We have all the departments that are important for children. Healthy Child is directed by Mr. Sale, the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology.
Mr. Sale will speak to us this afternoon, as will two ministers from the Council. Healthy Child is managed by the Ministers of Education et Youth, Health, Family Services and Housing, Justice, Native and Northern Affairs, the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Pluralism, and the Minister for Status of Women. All these departments are concerned with childhood and all work together around the same table.
When the federal-provincial/territorial agreement was reached, the ministers sat down around the table and developed a comprehensive plan. The money was allocated among the various departments in order to work on the question of children. We worked in an integrated manner. The report is in your kit and will give you an idea of the work that was done at that stage.
Healthy Child is a team of 30 persons who work very closely with the community. We work with the schools, the health centres and community centres. For the francophone community, we work with the Division scolaire franco- manitobaine, the Fédération provinciale des comités de parents, the Centre de santé de Saint-Boniface, the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface and with researchers from the Collège de Saint-Boniface.
We focus very much on research. We think it is very important to develop our policies from the research that's done. We worked with Human Resources Development Canada on a report which is extremely interesting and easy to read. It talks about the research that we've done on families.
We rely on that research and we realized that, when we work on the child question, we cannot just talk about the child in isolation. We have to talk about the entire environment. All these factors are present when we think of francophone children.
Families are naturally very close to children, and we work with them. There is also the broader environment, day care centres, schools and the entire community as well.
Senator Comeau, you referred to signs, signage and attitude. Those factors are important in the lives of children and in language development.
What we at Healthy Child want for all Manitoba children and for francophone children is first physical and emotional development within the family, safety and security in schools and day care centres, the ability to learn so that they eventually become the final result, socially committed and responsible persons within their community.
We at Healthy Child use a full range of approaches based on parents and children, teenage health development, health in schools, prevention of all problems caused by fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS) and other issues.
When we consider the welfare of children — Messrs. Boucher and Jourdain referred to this — we cannot think of one stage in particular. Starting at birth, we consider the child's education until adolescence. In considering postsecondary education, we really have to think of their entire lives.
The programs we are contemplating are aimed at all these periods. Some periods are critical: birth, starting school and the transition period to adolescence. They are all very important. Those children and families need financial and community support. That is what we do at Healthy Child. If we think of school age children, we must also think of preschool age children.
The next slide is very clear. We are spending increasing amounts of money on health, education and social assistance as people age and brain development declines. Where do we put our money and what does this information mean? We really have an opportunity to make good choices for our children.
Lastly, my final slide shows a puzzle with all the pieces fitting together. I wanted to show it to you because this is what happens when all the departments work together. We don't have children in small pieces; we have the entire puzzle together.
We have programs that work with parents, others that work with education and day care programs. We work together and the programs are interrelated.
It is important to emphasize that we work with regional and community coalitions. We see the francophone community as a coalition in itself, and we want to work with it.
The emphasis is on early childhood because we want children to be ready to learn when they enter school. It must be recognized that some children have more barriers than others. Our francophone children have more barriers because they live in a minority environment.
We know that the language environment has an impact on literacy and mostly is not favourable for our children. They have barriers from the outset. We really have to work with the francophone community to level this playing field.
In conclusion, I simply wanted to let you know that Healthy Child has a structure in place to meet the needs of Franco-Manitoban youth. We are ready to do that. We support the committees and work with them to put all children on an equal footing and prepare them for life at school.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Ms. Chartier. I note that there are two persons with you.
[English]
Ms. Chartier: I am accompanied this morning by Leanne Boyd, and the Director of Healthy Child Manitoba, Jan Sanderson.
[Translation]
The Chair: Thank you for your presentation. If you look at the agenda, you will see we have taken your puzzle. We are hearing from witnesses who tell us about each piece of the puzzle: early childhood, postsecondary education, teenagers at school. We thought it was s good idea to hear from Healthy Child Manitoba because health is necessary for education to work. Senators, we will resume with the Chair of the Comité de parents de la Société Francophone, Ms. Diane Dornez-Laxdal. She is accompanied by the President of Division scolaire, Ms. Yolande Dupuis. Ms. Hélène D'Auteuil and Mr. Louis Druwé are here to assist in answering questions.
Ms. Diane Dornez-Laxdal, Fédération provinciale des comités de parents du Manitoba: On behalf of the Fédération provinciale des Comités de parents du Manitoba and the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, we wish to welcome the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. We work closely together on overall early childhood development in French-speaking Manitoba. We thank you for this opportunity to speak to you about needs, issues, our vision and recommendations in this matter.
We are interested in public policies in Manitoba and Canada, particularly on health, education and family services. The public, governments and the business community are increasingly interested in overall child development issues. We are increasingly talking about investments in the future. To cite the Chair of the Manitoba Cabinet Healthy Child Committee, Minister Tim Sale: "If we do a lot of things for our children, we will be doing things for everyone." Why not get off on the right foot instead of trying to catch up once it is too late. Let us act where it counts the most!
Children from 0 to 5 years of age have a very great ability to learn. Everything is possible before the age of five. That openness gradually declines and stabilizes in adulthood. Should we not take advantage when the time is right?
The research has been unanimous for a decade: a dollar invested in a high-quality preschool service can save seven in the future. It can save costs in health, justice, education, social services and other areas. The Government of Manitoba was one of the first to understand this fact. It established the Healthy Child Committee of Cabinet, which consists of seven ministers and whose purpose is to address overall child development.
Investing in early childhood makes good sense in any society. However, when you are in a minority situation, it is an essential investment. The preschool period is the gateway to the community, the gateway to school.
In 1994, Manitoba created the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine to comply with a judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada. The DSFM was given a mandate to govern French-language schools. Ten years later, we have not altered the fact that most rightsholders do not register their children in those schools. We have only 4,500 students.
This is a historically complex situation. We have changed the structures, but we have not changed the values and attitudes. DSFM does not have the resources to adequately discharge its constitutional and legal obligations. This is critical for recruitment.
But school is not the only factor in everything. We have realized the obvious fact that the decisions are made at the birth of the first child. It is then that parents choose the language of the household, the community to which they belong and their child's school. It is imperative that we be present at that critical time to make parents aware.
The situation becomes complicated when the parents are not both francophone. Nearly 70 per cent of francophone children in Manitoba come from exogamous families, and that rate is rising. For those couples, a French-language school is far from the obvious choice, particularly since English is the language of the household in 85 per cent of cases. As you can see, I am repeating things that have already been said.
There is hidden potential in exogamy. It could double the number of francophones instead of reducing it. Intensive research in second language education over the past 30 years clearly shows that children can develop so-called additive bilingualism if the development of French language and culture receive the necessary support at home, in day care centres and in kindergarten. However, people must be equipped to do the work.
You can see the issue clearly. If we do not immediately intervene with the parents of young children, if we do not get them interested in life in French and in French-language schools, the horizon shrinks for the future of our communities.
The needs are pressing! A full and coherent range of programs and services in French designed to meet the needs of our francophone children in all aspects of their development is essential. We want our children to have a chance at academic success equal to that of children of the majority so that they are well prepared to enter French-language schools and achieve results equivalent to those of their anglophone counterparts. We want them to be able to take part in community life in French.
I want to talk to you about the fundamental principles guiding our actions. First is a community centred on children. It takes a whole village to raise a child. A commitment by partners, parents, organizations, institutions and governments to share a common vision and develop a comprehensive approach and coherent planning is essential. Infancy and early childhood must become a priority for the entire community.
Second, the school as the centre of French life. The study on early childhood (McCain and Mustard, 1999) demonstrates beyond any doubt the necessity of high-quality childhood services that are fully integrated into community structures. In many of our communities, the French school is the main focus of French life. It is a place for gathering and socialization. It is there that French life finds it main anchor point, hence the importance of establishing our early childhood services and programs there. School is also a solid structure that would provide them with a more permanent framework.
Third, permanent high-quality programs and services, universally available and accessible. High-quality educational and cultural, social service and health programs meeting the various needs of children and parents are essential. They must be available and accessible to all rightsholders where they live and whatever their socio-economic status, religion or culture. The development of framework programming would raise the quality of services and permit more coherent and standard programming across the province. Permanent and sustainable funding is a priority for that purpose.
Lastly, the harmonization of preschool and school services. The work done at the preschool level has a direct impact on the school level. The development of close ties between preschool and school services will make for a more harmonious move from one level to the other for children and parents because programming and action will be concerted, coherent and continuous.
Our vision concerns the Early Childhood Centres, a project developed in French-speaking Manitoba. The purpose of this initiative of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine and the Fédération provinciale des comités de parents du Manitoba is to establish Early Childhood Centres in each of our francophone community schools. The project is a partial response to the recent Supreme Court decision in Arsenault-Cameron, further defining the privileged position reserved for French schools in minority communities.
The report by CIRCEM, which is the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research on Citizenship and Minorities, entitled "Early Childhood: Gateway to French-Language Schools," identifies the reasons why school plays this pivotal role around which early childhood services must develop: sustainability and constitutional protection, universality, anchor point for French life and continuity between services.
To achieve our vision of establishing childhood centres in each of our schools, we propose programs and services in the areas of literacy and numeracy.
Children explore their environment and, very early on, lay the foundation of their literacy and numeracy development. The roles of parents and the environment on that development are well documented. Preschool-aged children become aware of the world around them through experience. The significant impact that the English- dominant language environment has on the development of literacy must be countered.
Parent education and awareness through training and support are key elements in our childhood centres since the parental role is a decisive factor in the development of young children.
Support for exogamous families through intake, support and care strategies is put in place to help those families in transmitting French to their children. It is essential to ensure equality of opportunity before children even start school, if we want to achieve equal results in our French schools.
Worker training is very important. Preschool workers must be very well versed in current research on early childhood learning in order to deliver programming which is based on exemplary practices and which remains up to date with regard to knowledge and challenges specific to the situation of minorities.
Linguistic and cultural vitality, through the creation of francophone preschool environments, is essential to the linguistic and cultural development of children and parents. Children and parents living in a strongly francophone preschool family environment have higher French skills, stronger identity and want and are prepared to enter the French school system.
Screening, early intervention and multidisciplinary services are other important areas. We know how important it is to screen children as early as possible for problems in the areas of language, motor skills, physical health and other areas to ensure the necessary action is taken and to increase changes for success. Screening is all the more important in view of the demographic reality of our communities and the shortage of available French-language services.
The current supply of services is organized on a community, not a linguistic basis. However, service in French depends on random factors where the language aspect is not structural. The shortage of specialists who work in French is a particular problem.
Francophone minority preschool programs and services are of course the responsibility of the francophone communities, but they're also the responsibility of governments that must provide a framework for initiatives and give them the necessary resources.
The Commission nationale des parents Francophones reminds governments of their constitutional responsibility in this area. It invokes the principle of remedy, that there must be redress for past injustices done to Canadian francophones by providing them with access to an environment conducive to their growth and vitality.
At the provincial level, it is urgent that the Government of Manitoba make the connection between its French- Language Services Policy and the fair delivery of French-language programs and services in the area of early childhood.
The provincial government, in cooperation with the federal government, should proceed as soon as possible to establish Early Childhood Centres in the schools of the DSFM. Healthy Child Manitoba, the FPCP and the DSFM have been discussing the project for two years now. The project has also been discussed on a number of occasions by an inter-sectoral committee. We hope that the project is implemented as soon as possible. With the support of Healthy Child Manitoba, a Coalition Francophone de la petite enfance was recently established to coordinate all aspects of the project.
It goes without saying that the "capitalization" aspect is a prominent feature of the model. It is pointless to consider a model based under the rooves of our schools if spaces are not available. As the CTF states in the report, "A National Vision: Early Childhood...":
The only avenue that seems to be available to the Canadian Francophonie is that of an even greater integration of early childhood services into schools. The school setting has several advantages: it has constitutional protection, which ensures its stability and its sustainability; there are French-language schools in almost all francophone communities and they are accessible to all its members entitled to an education in French; French-language schools are institutions that operate completely in the French language, provide services in French and are managed by francophones, and as such are institutions that belong entirely and are accountable to the francophone community. The integration of early childhood services in schools would also ensure expected continuity with services offered at other education levels. In addition, it would help to achieve the fundamental objective of equity clearly stated during the forums, i.e. the equivalence of learning outcomes of francophone students in minority settings with those of anglophone students in majority communities.
Such an approach in no way reduces the significant involvement of parents, which is deemed necessary in the planning and management of services for young children.
In closing, allow us to cite the research report by the Canadian Teachers' Federation on Early Childhood, entitled "A National Vision: Early Childhood — Gateway to French-Language Schools":
Education received in the early years makes it possible to help children live experiences which form the first link of their education, and what they learn at this stage of their lives will greatly influence the outcomes of future learning, their personal development and their involvement in society.... We will however reiterate the particular importance of preschool education in minority settings. Whether it be with regard to young children themselves and more particularly from the point of view of their integration into French-language schools, or with respect to the development of the communities to which they belong, early childhood services have become a requirement for the institutional development of the Canadian Francophonie. This is confirmed by our work.
For Manitoba, the mission the government has set for itself in the area of early childhood is a societal choice. We encourage it to make the jump, focusing first on its francophone clientele. Because, for French-speaking Manitoba, that direction is not so much a choice as a necessity. Early childhood development is a societal project because the future of our schools and communities is at stake.
The Chair: In her presentation, Ms. Dupuis will tell us about school boards.
Ms. Yolande Dupuis, President, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine: You are ready to go on to the question period on this document, which contains the parents' position. It is a joint presentation on the preschool issue.
Senator Chaput: The joint project is called "Early Childhood Centres," and you are working on it jointly with Healthy Child Manitoba.
We have the provincial French-Language Services Policy. We still hope that policy is implemented. That means services available to us, active offer and money for the project.
Have you started talking with the Province of Manitoba and certain federal authorities to determine where funding will come from for the Early Childhood Centres? Have you gotten to the point of discussing funding? Are there any talks on the matter?
Looking at "Putting Children and Families First," the paper presented by Healthy Child Manitoba, I see that, since 2000, a lot of money has come from the federal government for early childhood development. Canada allocated $11.2 million in 2001-2002, $14.8 million in 2002-2003 and $18.5 million in 2003-2004.
So there are a lot of programs. Have you seen any actual impact as a result of that money? Will we see any through the Early Childhood Centres? What do you think?
Ms. Hélène d'Auteuil, Fédération provinciale des comités de parents du Manitoba: I can start, and Mr. Louis Druwé will continue. The partnership that currently exists at the community level, that is to say between the Federation and the Division scolaire, and at the government level, is beyond a doubt very important. For two years now, we have been trying to develop that partnership, and it is becoming increasingly solid. We have just gotten to the stage where we would like to obtain funding to set up our Early Childhood Centres.
That does not mean there has not been any money for preschool projects in Manitoba. There have been funds, which have been distributed. Two preschool and school day care centres have been set up in our francophone community. We have received grants for a school day care at Île-des-Chênes. We received grants for two nursery spaces. That is a new development for the francophone community.
The Centre de ressources éducatives à l'enfance has also received money to develop those programs for families and children. So there have been amounts of money. We cannot say the francophone community has received nothing.
However, we would like to have much larger amounts in order to move forward with our Early Childhood Centres.
Mr. Louis Druwé, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine: I would like to add that a number of programs are currently available in English but not French. We often point out the lack of training personnel and the recruitment issue and so on.
There are training and recruitment needs in the entire range of services we are putting forward. For the Early Childhood Centres, which are really a cooperative effort with Healthy Child Manitoba, that will require a quite considerable investment from the province. I suppose that the joint effort will be with the federal government because we're talking about services, staff and capital investment.
Our schools, which have the space, make implementation easier. In many of our schools, we will have to consider building space to accommodate all the services we want to include in our umbrella concept for the Early Childhood Centres, a concept that embraces all the services related to early childhood and young families.
The Chair: I would like us to continue on the funding question. Early childhood is a priority in Mr. Dion's action plan.
Do you have programs in the action plan? Are you satisfied with those investments? Could someone comment on this federal program?
Mr. Druwé: We do not have a lot of actual information on the Dion Plan's implementation. There have been political statements and statements by senior officials. We are a bit in the dark or a grey area about the actual implementation of this plan. We would need a lot more information.
We have not done a lot of consulting as to how that money will be used at the community level, with regard to early childhood. What we understand is that a lot of the money is targeted for national organizations. Our concern is whether that will result in actual plans at the regional and local level.
For the moment, we are not setting our hopes on the Dion Plan. We essentially need more information. We have not had any indication, even in the general information we received, that the Dion Plan would apply in supporting a project such as the one we are putting forward.
The Chair: If we really want to know about funding, we could go and get the information. We have talked about the Action Plan. Can someone talk about the OLEPs, the Official Languages in Education Programs? Do you feel you have your share of the various programs? Does early childhood have its share?
Ms. d'Auteuil: The Official Languages in Education Program funding contains money for community development. It is a small funding block, and the Fédération has had access to some funds. Roughly 10 years ago, we received funds for a francization French school preparation project.
That amount is appreciated. I would say it is about $80,000 a year. When we talk about Early Childhood Centres, we're not simply talking about $80,000 a year. Funding for preschool education absolutely has to be increased.
Senator Comeau: I would like to come back to your first recommendation, which concerns the question of "remedy". When I see the words "remedy past injustices," that immediately rings a bell for me that there is a victim. I am always concerned about the concept of being a victim because we tend to want to blame others and blame the past.
Are you seriously going to consider using another means or another way of expressing that concept?
I entirely agree that there were past injustices. We heard a presentation this morning that described it very well. Coming from the Province of Nova Scotia, my parents and I experienced the concept that there were no funds for francophone schools when I was a child. Fortunately, the religious orders were able to teach us French at school.
I have always hesitated over the words "remedy past injustices." Did you think twice about this approach before using it?
Mr. Druwé: The expression "remedy past injustices" comes from Supreme Court judgments and the case law around those decisions; countering assimilation, "righting past wrongs." These are expressions that have been used in judgments or in the Supreme Court. We use them.
Our intention is not to complain. We want to go after francophone parents whom we have lost, for example, in exogamous couples. We want to recover all the rightsholders.
We have nearly 5,000 students in Manitoba's educational system, but more than 15,000 are eligible. We would like to get them and welcome them to our system. It is in a proactive sense that we want to counter the effects of past years, to go and invite people back and welcome them.
Senator Comeau: I believe similar attempts have been made in Prince Edward Island to go after Acadians who are anglicized but who are rightsholders.
Mr. Druwé: That is correct.
Senator Comeau: That may possibly happen in Nova Scotia in the future.
As regards funding, it is often the stability and sustainability of funding that is important. Of course, the amounts are important as well.
Did I correctly understand the comments you made in your presentation?
Ms. Dupuis: Whether it is the Division scolaire or the Early Childhood Centres, that is what we are looking at: stability and sustainability for education.
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: We are always looking at the long term.
Senator Comeau: Reference was made to 50 years. If we are talking about 50 years, I entirely agree that you have to look at the matter in the longer term. Perhaps we are headed toward long-term funding.
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: I would like to come back to the Dion Plan. In one category, it talks about literacy. What interests us is francization, and francization is not literacy. Francization with regard to literacy and numeracy is not literacy training.
Money is provided for literacy training, and then we have trouble getting it because what we are looking for is not necessarily in their category. We have to make all kinds of manoeuvres to justify what we're seeking relative to what is offered. Sometimes it is just in the definition of things. It is not necessarily aimed at the situation of a francophone.
Senator Comeau: Could you send us more information on the subject?
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: That is an example.
Senator Comeau: It is an example, but it is important for us to see how we can improve the Dion Plan. It is a very concrete example.
Senator Léger: What do you mean by the word "nurseries"? You say you had two.
Ms. d'Auteuil: In our day care centres, for Franco-Manitobans, we have two nursery spaces that are subsidized. We are talking about children from 0 to two years of age.
Senator Léger: Training and recruitment: it's like when we talk about health. There are not any doctors; the nurses are not there. Where do you start?
Mr. Druwé: In the Early Childhood Centres Program, which was developed jointly with other people, programming is aimed at our needs and the objectives we set for ourselves as a community. We have allocated money to it to provide training for workers.
Continuing training is important and recruitment as well because we do not have enough people who are interested in the field of early childhood to make a career of it. Initial training is given at the Collège universitaire. There is also the question of continuing training relating to the specific needs of the project we're proposing. Training and recruitment are always concerns.
The Chair: You mentioned that you have 4,500 children who were in the early childhood program in French. Are 15,000 children eligible?
Mr. Druwé: No, we have roughly 4,500 students in the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, from kindergarten to grade 12. For the Early Childhood Centres, I'm going to let Ms. d'Auteuil give you those figures.
Ms. d'Auteuil: I am going to refer to our junior kindergartens. We have about 400 three- and four-year-olds a year for the French and francization program.
The Chair: The reason for my question, and I talked about this earlier in an interview with Radio-Canada, is that, if parents, whether it be at the kindergarten or secondary level, do not choose the francophone section, you could say that related services are lacking. I am talking about speech therapy services or services of the school psychologist. If these specialists cannot be found in the francophone system, they do exist in the other system. So, as parents, we are going to choose the best system; that is clear. Is this lacking in your schools?
Ms. d'Auteuil: At the preschool level, we have certain services, and we need to consolidate them. The early detection service in speech therapy and the social service are lacking in our schools. We have trouble obtaining the services of a francophone nurse in our centres. We have family mini-centres in our communities, and we want to bring in and attract services in French for our young families. We have trouble finding a nurse who is a bilingual francophone.
The Chair: Perhaps it is a lack of human resources.
Mr. Druwé: In fact, we have very few services that have been introduced specifically for early childhood. When we have those services, they are unreliable. The person in place is bilingual and can leave the next day. The vast majority of available services, be they medical or paramedical services, including occupational therapy, physiotherapy and obviously all the fields of specialized medicine, including speech therapy — that is very important at the preschool level — are offered in English, with few exceptions.
With the Early Childhood Centre, one of the elements of the proposal — because we have not gone into all the details — is that we would like to develop a centralized team of specialists, instead of all regions in the province trying to find bilingual staff, which will never happen in Manitoba. Even in English, they have trouble recruiting specialists.
We propose to have a floating team that could go round to our communities, which would make it possible to serve young children and their families. It is possible to carry out this project.
Under the present system, each region, with the departments and government services, tries to recruit bilingual staff, but that is virtually impossible. Our project would offer a solution to this deficiency.
The Chair: With regard to justice, I know there are travelling judges. Are there any pilot projects for early childhood in this regard?
Mr. Druwé: We have a preschool speech therapy program for six of our rural schools. Instead of offering the services itself, a regional health office gives us a certain amount out of their budget for the services of our team of school speech therapists. We have increased the time so they can also serve the preschool population. These are the beginnings of a model in place and we would like to expand it.
[English]
Senator Keon: In Canada, there are certainly services that just cannot be provided in certain locations because the population is too small. You just hit on one. You cannot provide adequate cardiac surgical services in Manitoba, whether you are English or French, because the population is too small.
What troubles me is that you send your kids to either Edmonton or Toronto. Why do not you send them to Montreal?
[Translation]
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: As a result of the Quebec policy, we no longer turn inward, and we were more interested in bringing people from other francophone countries than in other provinces where there were francophones.
We saw it at the university level especially. Ms. Raymonde Gagné will tell you about that. That is an attitude that is changing. We hope it will open doors.
I know that the Commission nationale des parents is very interested in what is happening in the preschool area in Quebec. All the money they invest in early childhood is a model we would like to adopt. It was not until recently that Quebec opened up to the other provinces to enable us to examine them. It is a start.
Mr. Druwé: There is a national initiative for communities outside Quebec called Santé en français, which is for minority and majority francophones. It is an initiative for the communities in eastern and western Canada. For two years now, it has identified needs and is beginning to generate creative solutions to meeting the needs of francophone communities outside Quebec. It is just starting up.
A few weeks ago, we had the first annual conference with representatives from across the country to see how we can cooperate further and use the resources of one part of the country for another part of the country. Thinking has started on the subject, but we are in the initial stages.
[English]
Senator Keon: When we try to provide services in education or health and so forth in French, we try to transpose a service into a community where there is a critical mass of francophones. However, we do not make enough effort to use the resources of the Province of Quebec. That is even more serious in education because although there are superb educational programs in primary school the young people are just thrown adrift at age 16 to 18 when they could easily continue their education at Laval or the University of Montreal. Instead, they go to Toronto, or the University of Manitoba, or UBC and they change their whole linguistic orientation.
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: I am sure Madame Raymonde Gagné will be able to answer you more appropriate to that, especially because you are talking about the university level.
[Translation]
In my experience with university aged children, Quebec does not recognize the credits of our young people who have taken a one-year course in our university system. As a result of the Cegeps in Quebec, they always have to study a little more before they can enter their universities.
What we need is a kind of nationalization of our universities.
Senator Keon: That is true.
Ms. Dornez-Laxdal: It is just as much an anglophone as a francophone problem. Perhaps we are paying a higher price now because we are in the minority and we do not have access to as many universities.
Senator Comeau: My theory is that that previous Quebec government did not want to admit that there were francophones outside the province because that created the impression that Canada had francophones elsewhere than in Quebec.
With a new government in Quebec, we should see whether an open attitude is developing toward our francophones so that we can have access to those services in Quebec. We should do that now.
Another benefit in doing it over the long term is that Quebec, Quebecers, the Quebec population would see that there are francophones virtually all across Canada. People are surprised when I tell them I am from Nova Scotia and I speak French. We could look at that point in our recommendations.
Senator Léger: You referred to a floating team. The French-speaking part Manitoba is located approximately — I'm going to cite figure without really knowing them — within a 100-kilometer radius of Winnipeg. Will your team operate in the remoter regions?
Mr. Druwé: Half of our numbers, of our students and families, are in the urban area, in Winnipeg, or in the areas near Winnipeg. The other half are scattered. The remotest region is Saint-Lazare, a four-hour drive away. The distance is approximately 700 to 800 kilometers.
Our floating team would travel virtually across the province. The distances are enormous and pose a major logistical challenge.
Senator Léger: You said that 50 per cent were in the urban area. I thought it was approximately 85 per cent. The other 50 per cent are outside Winnipeg. That is a lot.
Mr. Druwé: That is correct.
Senator Léger: Would your floating team float that far?
Mr. Druwé: Yes, it is doing that now in the schools. There are people living in their cars.
The Chair: Ms. Dupuis, President of the Division scolaire, will make a presentation. Then I will ask Mr. Auger, Assistant Director General of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine to make his presentation.
Ms. Yolande Dupuis, President, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine: The Division scolaire franco-manitobaine is pleased to accept this invitation and to give the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages its viewpoint on the question stated in the letter received from the committee clerk.
Our brief does not provide a full and detailed analysis of all the French-language education issues with which the Division scolaire is concerned. A number of other papers have previously been prepared for that purpose. In this brief, we will address the proposed questions, referring to some basic themes which are closely related to our mission and to the vitality of Manitoba's francophone community.
Aware of its unique role in Manitoba, Canada and in a constantly changing world, the Division scolaire franco- manitobaine has as its mission: to provide high-quality training to the francophone student population of Manitoba by promoting the development of self-sufficient, well-developed, skilled people, sure of their identity and proud of their language and culture; to establish a community education project, managed by the francophone parents of Manitoba and reflecting the interests and values of the Franco-Manitoban community.
Our vision is to see students enriched by the French language and culture, students who are proud to be involved in the development of Manitoba's francophone community. Students receive high-quality training enabling them to view their future with confidence. Students have good self-esteem; students are loved and valued; students are respected and respectful of others.
The DSFM's teaching orientation is based on the belief that all students are able to learn in their own way, that they are entitled to programs adapted to their pace of learning and their specific talents. It strives by every means, within the limits of its resources, to create an atmosphere of serenity, respect and involvement in school work, aware that the student of today is the adult of tomorrow.
The DSFM acknowledges that students are lifetime learners and therefore advocates a student-centred teaching approach enabling all students to learn how to learn and to become independent learners.
The DSFM provides all its students with tools that will enable each of them to develop harmoniously and achieve success.
Much has previously been written on the history of French-language education in Manitoba. French-language education was prohibited in 1890, and the assimilating policies of governments succeeded each other over the years. However, the francophone community of Manitoba has never stopped fighting injustice and claiming their rights.
In 1988, the Société franco-manitobaine held its "Estates General on the Manitoban Francophonie." This was an opportunity for the community to examine the current situation and to prepare for the future. Some 700 persons attended the public hearings, and education was by far the dominant field that those people chose to address when they talked about their concerns and expectations for the future. The creation of a single French-language school division was the most frequently recurring theme during the discussions.
What was a dream in 1988 became reality several years later when the DSFM was established. It welcomed its first students in September 1994.
At the time, there were 4,264 students in 20 schools. Since then, three new schools have joined the DSFM: École Jours de Plaine in Laurier in 1995, École communautaire Gilbert-Rosset in Saint-Claude in 1988 and École Roméo- Dallaire in Saint James, Winnipeg, in 2002. As of September 2003, 4,473 students were registered from kindergarten to Secondary 4 in the DSFM's schools, an increase of 5 per cent over September 1994.
Manitoba's francophone minority has always had to demand, fight for and treat education like a challenge. Since the DSFM was established, reference has increasingly been made to the successes achieved in the new school division. Some 15 years ago, community members dreamed of a school system which, among other things, would facilitate sports and cultural meetings among students from the various French-language schools in the province. Today, meetings between students, teaching meetings among teachers, full-time kindergarten, the intake phase, greater course selection at the secondary level, and many other teaching and cultural activities are part of the normal operation of our vision for schools.
The statistics are disturbing. The linguistic and cultural continuity of Canada's francophone minorities is undeniably not established. The renewal, development and vitality of those communities are not assured.
The 2001 census data provided by Statistics Canada show that Senator Simard's statement indeed applies to Manitoba. Despite the successes of recent years, it must be recognized that we have not yet stopped the erosion of the francophone community. The cumulative effects of the injustices of the past are still being felt.
And here we first look at the number of persons who identify French as their mother tongue in Manitoba, the language first learned in the home during childhood and still understood at the time of the census.
It will be noted that there are approximately 3,400 more respondents in Canada, but a reduction of some 3,325 in Manitoba.
The data on the intergenerational transmission of French are also disturbing. The table shows that French is transmitted to only 15.9 per cent of children in exogamous families. However, in 2001, those families had 67.9 per cent of all our children 22 years of age and under. In addition, the number of those families is constantly increasing.
Next let us look at the language used in the home. Here is what Canada's censuses tell us about the percentage of francophones who speak French or English most often at home.
All the statistical measures point in the same direction. As Senator Simard said, the renewal, development and vitality of our community are not assured.
Now let us talk about accessibility and recruitment. As noted earlier, 4,473 students were registered in DSFM schools at the start of this school year. However, the 2001 census shows that there were 17,605 rightsholding students in Manitoba. The large gap between the actual and potential numbers of students registered in our school is certainly due to a number of factors. Some rightsholding students do not attend French schools simply because there are no French schools in or near their communities. This is a disturbing question of accessibility that requires urgent solutions if we want to recover a large part of our target school numbers.
Among other things, action should be taken on the 2001 report of the Commissioner of Official Languages, Ms. Dyane Adam, entitled: "Rights, Schools and Communities in Minority Contexts: 1986-2002, Toward the Development of French Through Education, and Analysis", by Ms. Angéline Martel.
Furthermore, there is also the exclusivity issue which has not yet been settled in Manitoba. There are schools that are not part of the DSFM and that still offer French as a first language program. The DSFM believes that providing French-language programs is an exclusive prerogative of the francophone school board in accordance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the decisions of the Supreme Court.
As already stated, Manitoba's francophone community wanted the DSFM to be established. The DSFM was created through the hard work of the community's members and leaders. They had already understood what would later be confirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada in the Arsenault-Cameron decision: "A school is the single most important institution for the survival of the official language minority, which is itself a true beneficiary under s. 23."
A school at the centre of the community is a concept taken up by Angéline Martel in the study I just cited. And I quote:
Recently, the Supreme Court decision in favour of the parents of Summerside recalled the importance of schools in the development of minority communities. The aim of our study is to show the importance of strengthening the community population base through the target school population. The school serves as a community centre, and viewing it in this way encourages the parents of the target population to give it their support. It must be sustained by a feeling of belonging to the community and a desire to contribute to it in return.
Although a school serves as a community centre, it cannot do everything on its own. Full preschool services are essential in integrating the maximum number of young people in the target school population into the francophone community. Early childhood initiatives should therefore be closely related to the DSFM school system.
As noted earlier in the presentation made by the FPCP and ourselves, you have information on this subject.
The Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface (CUSB) is one of DSFM's main partners. DSFM school graduates wishing to go on to postsecondary education in French in Manitoba go to CUSB. The vast majority of our teachers receive their initial training at the CUSB Faculty of Education.
The vitality of the francophone community in Manitoba is thus based in large part on what is called "institutional completeness" in education. And I quote:
Institutional completeness in education. A high-quality school can be achieved if it is part of the "life-long" education continuum. Institutional completeness in education is necessary, in particular, in order to meet early childhood needs through day care, junior kindergarten and kindergarten services, but postsecondary education needs as well later on.
It is important to understand clearly that the needs of the various partners in our community our complementary and also distinct. Consequently, the DSFM and its partners should not be put in competition with each other when the various levels of government attempt to allocate adequate resources to them.
For a school to be a true community centre, and to be perceived as such by all parents, a francization or refrancization program must be offered for some parents in a number of locations in the province. The statistics on exogamous families clearly show how important it is to offer francization programs. We know that the level of intergenerational language transfer is much higher in those families where the non-francophone parent speaks French. We also know that a number of francophone parents could benefit from a refrancization program tailored to their needs and offered in their community. When we try to find the ways to meet those needs, it must be acknowledged that the geographical size of our school division presents unique challenges not found in the school divisions of the majority.
First, there is the shortage of professionals available to provide services in French in specialized fields such as speech therapy, occupational therapy and so on. That shortage represents a serious recruitment problem for us.
It is essential that our teachers have access to an initial and continuing training program that meets their needs. That program should include all the familiar subjects found in teacher training programs.
However, teachers who work in minority schools also need programs that strengthen their commitment to French language and culture. In the remoter regions in particular, ways must be found to provide better support for those who bear the heavy burden of promoting the importance of French and pride in the fact of being francophone.
Developing programs is an essential management responsibility recognized in the case law. For the minority, separate programming specific to its needs is essential in order to reflect the realities and reference points of the minority community in achieving equality of results. However, four of the 18 study programs established by the Department for our schools are common programs with the French immersion system.
In view of programming goals and the DSFM's right to manage its education program, it would be a good idea for there to be a partnership between the DSFM and the Bureau de l'éducation française to develop all programming aspects: framework programming, program development, program implementation and review, and time tabling.
Not enough teaching material is available for the teaching and learning of French as a first language. When you look at the catalogue of the Centre des manuels scolaires du Manitoba, you see that a lot more teaching material is available for French immersion and basic French students than for the French, first-language program. Note in particular that there is no material for the intake phase, even though that's a legal obligation, and that the DSFM has a total of 760 students, 17 per cent of its total numbers, registered in that program in 2002-2003.
To effectively reach all our clienteles in all regions of the province, the francophone community of Manitoba would have to be able to have access to an integrated videoconferencing system. Well developed and supported technological infrastructure would enable the various partners in the community to more effectively meet their needs, such as: training for early childhood educators, remote education at the secondary level, continuing teacher training, francization and refrancization for parents, courses of adults, remote meetings of various organizations and so on.
A number of the majority's school divisions already have the various technological systems that meet their needs. However, the very nature of our school division, which is spread over a big area, requires a much more complex and costly solution.
It can be concluded that much remains to be done, particularly when you remember words of the Commissioner of Official Languages, and I quote: "In short, to compete on an equal basis in some instances, the minority school may well even have to be better than the majority school."
I come to the Official Languages in Education Program. In this previously cited report, Senator Simard makes the following recommendation:
We recommend that the Government of Canada acquire the means to achieve its statutory and constitutional obligations in education, by linking cash transfers to the provinces to full performance of the obligations set out in section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, reworking the purpose and parameters of the Official Languages in Education Program (OLEP), increasing funding for French education in the minority communities to a sufficient level to stop the erosion of francophone and Acadian communities.
We support Senator Simard's recommendation.
In the Arsenault-Cameron judgment, the Supreme Court of Canada confirmed the restorative aspect of section 23 of the Charter. In the Court's view:
A purposive interpretation of s. 23 rights is based on the true purpose of redressing past injustices and providing the official language minority with equal access to high-quality education in its own language, in circumstances where community development would be enhanced.
In reality, the impact of past injustices is still being felt, the successes achieved in the first 10 years of our existence have not yet reversed the gradual erosion of our community.
In the Mahé decision, the Supreme Court of Canada found, at p. 372:
Furthermore, as the historical context in which s. 23 was enacted suggests, minority language groups cannot always rely upon the majority to take account of all their linguistic and cultural concerns. Such neglect is not necessarily intentional: the majority cannot be expected to understand and appreciate all of the diverse ways in which educational practices may influence the language and culture of the minority.
We believe we must be at the bargaining table on the Official Languages in Education Program because we are in the best position to make known our needs and our views on the best ways to meet them.
We believe that a distinction must be drawn within OLEP between teaching of French as a first language and the teaching of French as a second language. The two programs address different needs and different clienteles. Consideration should be given to reaching a federal-provincial agreement for the purpose of fully carrying out the mission laid down by section 23 of the Charter.
We firmly believe that the vitality of Manitoba's francophone community depends in large part on our ability to renew our youth and training the leaders of tomorrow. This is an integral part of the DSFM's mission.
To carry out its mission, the DSFM needs adequate resources allocated to it. Our school system should be provided with additional financial support. The children who were five years old, the age at which children were admitted to kindergarten, in 1982, the year the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was passed, are 26 today. Some of them already have children of their own. There is an urgent need for action.
The Chair: That brief will trigger a great many questions indeed.
Senator Comeau: It surprises me that you aren't a full partner in the talks on the Official Languages in Education Program. It is the Department that conducts the negotiations with Ottawa in that area and you are not directly involved as a partner at the table. I find that's a surprising way of going about it.
Mr. Gérard Auger, Division scolaire franco-manitobaine: We are surprised too, and we are pleased that you have pointed it out. We talk about it in our brief. We should have the opportunity to be at that table and to state what we need in order to do our work.
Senator Comeau: In fact, the purpose of all this is to respond to section 23 of the Charter. The purpose of the schools boards is for the community to advance, to redress the past and look to the future.
I do not know. It is simply surprising. Perhaps we should examine the story behind that.
Ms. Dupuis: Initially, the Bureau d'éducation française du Manitoba, which had been established for the immersion question, negotiated with the provinces. Nothing changed when schools management by the francophone minority came about. The formulas have not been readjusted in seven years.
Senator Comeau: The formulas? Do you mean the funding amount?
Ms. Dupuis: That is correct.
Senator Comeau: At the outset, before the boards were formed, there must have been a provincial agency taking care of that. I would have thought that, with the creation of the boards, a change would take place in a short space of time and that you would be at the bargaining table. That is a deficiency we should look at closely.
Ms. Dupuis: We appreciate that. We have sent out a number of letters. We have asked to be at the bargaining table.
Senator Comeau: Have you had an opportunity to examine the Dion Plan? Does that plan concern education?
Mr. Auger: We heard Minister Dion speak in Toronto recently, but it was only on the main features of this program. We do not have the details or the plan.
The Chair: I would like to come back to access and recruitment. You say rightsholders do not attend French schools because there are not any in or near their communities.
Is that lack due to the fact that the Division scolaire francophone has not seen fit to introduce any? The Arsenault- Cameron decision states that there must be French-language schools everywhere, depending on numbers. Have there been no requests? Don't parents want French schools?
Mr. Auger: That is a fairly complex question with a number of answers. For example, we have just opened a school in the community of Laurier. With a great deal of hard work, we managed last week to take the first steps toward building the school.
We would like to expand our space in the community in the urban area of the Saint James-Assiniboia region. We are currently in talks with the Department of Education to find the necessary resources to expand our school spaces in that area.
The Saint James-Assiniboia region is in the far western portion of Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg, neighbouring communities such as Saint-François-Xavier, Élie and other communities, which were traditionally very francophone communities, where there are no French schools today.
For us, the hope is to expand our spaces and to attract rightsholders who live in those areas and who have no access to a school.
Ms. Dupuis: We opened the school in Saint James in 2002. In September of this year, registration doubled. We have gone from 23 to 46 schools. We want to negotiate for another school because the transferor division, that of the majority, has 14 empty schools. We're trying to get one.
In 2004, we are going to open a school outside our area, in Brandon. The request was made a number of years ago. We had meetings with Brandon parents and we are trying to negotiate to see what building we can share with them.
Last year, a request was made by parents of Portage-la-Prairie. It takes a few years to implement these projects.
The Chair: We are privileged because, this afternoon, we will be hearing from the government officials, the Department of Education and the Department of Finance.
How do you receive your budget in the francophone school districts? Is it the entire envelope from the Department of Education or is it a comprehensive budget? Is there a basic grant and then amounts based on student registration?
Mr. Auger: Funding of Manitoba's school boards is a very complex system, and even more complex for the DSFM. For example, if we have 50 students in the Louis Riel School Division, out of a total of 16,000 students, at the end of the year, that school board has to give us 50 divided by 16,000 times the amount of school taxes they have collected.
If each school board has a different property tax, a different income tax, it is difficult for us to estimate on a year-to- year basis the operating budget we will receive from the school tax system.
We receive a basic grant for each student in the school division, like the other commissions, transferor school divisions and the other school divisions in Manitoba. It is complex.
The Chair: It is very complex. Is it fair, in your view?
Mr. Auger: It is not fair. We cannot meet the requirements of section 23, the duty we have to perform in Manitoba.
For some time now, the Minister of Education has been consulting us, and we have chosen together to name someone to come and examine the matter. It is interesting for us because the minister at first said that there was no problem of under-funding for the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine.
Despite that fact, Mr. Jean Comtois from Ontario came and conducted a study on the school division's operations to see where the government could help us.
[English]
Senator Keon: That was a very good presentation. I would like to return to what I was discussing previously. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my impression that your curriculum is generally based on an English curriculum which you flip into French.
Now, we have in Canada in the Province of Quebec a superb educational system. It is not only good; it is superb. Perhaps it is the best in Canada. It seems to me that if the francophones outside Quebec want a viable education system, they should adopt the Quebec system. I have never been able to understand why they do not because in the end, they lose continuity in their education system.
I was born in Quebec myself a long time ago and none of this applies. However, for a young francophone in Canada, there are superb resources for them to complete their education in French, in any discipline you would pick. They simply have to go to Quebec for some of the advanced stuff.
Previous witnesses pointed out that your curriculum does not fit the Quebec curriculum, so it is too hard for the students to continue on to the University of Montreal or Laval. Consequently, they go to an English university.
First, is my sense correct? If so, are you giving any thought to trying to change that whole thing?
The Chairman: Senator Keon, I can say that was almost my next question relating to the experience of New Brunswick. I will let you people answer first.
[Translation]
Mr. Druwé: The responsibility for curricula and study programs falls to the provincial governments, and they are quite jealous of their territory.
Over the years, we have made some progress on demands for partnerships with other provinces. There is the western memorandum of understanding, the cross-Canada memorandum with the Council of Ministers of Education Canada. Initiatives are being taken and partnerships started. The entire question of curriculum and educational agenda is still very provincial. We would very much like more exchange and many more partnerships. There is an economy to be made and we must agree on the major objectives.
On the whole, the purposes of education can be the same, with specific local differences. We are demanding more independence in the development of our programs so that we can seek out our partners and, together, come up with programs that effectively meet our needs, with an economy of time and an economy of funding. This is a dilemma that we're facing. You accurately noted it.
Mr. Auger: We do not want to become a branch office of Quebec either. We want to develop our own resources and our own study programs.
There is a university in Manitoba called the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, which meets a lot of our young students' needs. We have students who study in Moncton through the correspondence between school systems.
We have young people who have gone to study law and other disciplines at the University of Moncton and who have obtained degrees from the Collège de Saint-Boniface.
We have just started a partnership with the Sherbrooke School Board, at their request. It is a partnership between directors general with the aid of the school board president to see exactly what resources we have in common.
They are interested in knowing how we have managed to survive in a minority environment. They feel we could teach them a great deal. We will be pleased to learn about their expertise in human resources and other areas and what they have to offer us.
[English]
Senator Keon: You did not mention the University of Ottawa, which is in the loop. The University of Ottawa, which is my university, offers a superb francophone education also.
Mr. Auger: Yes.
Senator Keon: However, it is English education translated into French, except for the Faculty of Law. Whereas when students come out of the education system in Quebec, they are stamped for life as francophones. It could be interesting to try to pursue a Quebec curriculum for francophone communities.
Mr. Auger: I am glad you appreciate the educational system in Quebec. Manitoba has a fine system itself. However, an example of programs that they have that would not be necessarily of help to us would all the social sciences.
[Translation]
Humanities, history, geography, are specific programs in Quebec. These programs are important for us in the West.
The Chair: I am pleased you mentioned that, Mr. Auger, because we have had experience with that in New Brunswick. In the 1980s, when I taught in New Brunswick, we needed teaching material translated from English into French. We were practically a branch office of Quebec. The best salesmen came to us from Quebec so we could buy teaching material for the Department of Education.
With the Université de Moncton, the Collège d'Acadie, we began publishing our own teaching material. Today, you can go to New Brunswick schools and see teaching material that has been made, produced by people from New Brunswick. I encourage you. With the Université de Saint-Boniface, you could prepare material that reflects your reality.
Senator Léger: Could you elaborate a little more on the subject of immersion? Are greater resources allocated or provided for immersion and for French as a first language? Do parents have to pay? Does the government provide more resources for immersion than French-language instruction?
Mr. Auger: The Official Languages Policy and the money offered to the provinces for minority French-language education are not separate. The immersion school clientele receives the same amounts as the French school clientele. It is not that they receive more; it is that, at some points, there are more students.
Ms. Dupuis: There are established immersion schools, fairly large schools, in some of our regions. There is a big immersion school in the eastern part of the province.
In 1994, we established a French school without a gymnasium. We are in a former community centre that is been rebuilt. It is quite good.
Students reach high school and see schools with about 1,000 students. It is tempting for them. Some of them stay with us until Secondary 4. It is hard for us to offer remote courses or the courses they need to succeed. The large neighbourhood school aspect still plays a role in the decision of parents and children.
Senator Léger: For the government as well?
The Chair: We will see this afternoon.
Mr. Auger: Today we are here to talk about French schools, but there is not really any association to represent people who work in immersion environments, who are major partners in Manitoba's entire plan to recover Manitoba's Francophonie.
The Association manitobaine des directeurs d'écoles d'immersion appears to be the only organization that could talk about immersion. I would like you to meet them if you get a chance.
The Chair: I would like to speak with a few of them about programs and teaching material.
Senator Comeau: You mentioned exclusivity in your report. There are apparently schools that offer programs in French as a first language. Would you like to explain to me very briefly what that is?
Mr. Auger: In the other provinces, all French-language education is done by the province's francophone school division. In Manitoba, we have chosen to have credits by community. Some quite weird situations have developed in certain communities.
Today we have seven communities that have schools claiming to be francophone. They are recognized by the department, by the Bureau d'éducation française, as francophone schools, but they are not part of the DSFM. They offer programs different from those of DSFM. Those programs offer only half of the French-language education courses. This is a matter that comes up in our brief.
Senator Comeau: So Manitoba is the only province that operates this way?
Mr. Auger: Yes, it is the only province.
The committee is adjourned.