Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 10 - Evidence - Afternoon session
WINNIPEG, Tuesday, October 21, 2003
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 1:42 p.m. to study education within official language minority communities.
The Hon. Rose-Marie Losier-Cool (Chairman) in the Chair.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Our first witness this afternoon is Ms. Raymonde Gagné, who is Rector of the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface. We are in the process of studying another part of this morning's puzzle, namely, post-secondary education.
Ms. Gagné, you have submitted a very substantial document. Do you wish to present it in full or do you prefer to summarize it so that we will have an opportunity to ask you more questions?
Ms. Raymonde Gagné, Rector, Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface: Madam Chair, I will be reading the text. As I am new to this position, I think that it would be important that I be able to follow the text. I will not read it in full, but I will nevertheless be referring to it.
I would like to thank you for affording us this opportunity to talk about the requirements and challenges of our francophone community in matters pertaining to education and, in my case, post-secondary education.
Before I delve into the heart of the matter, I would like to make a personal comment, if I may. Up until quite recently, I was under the impression that a standing Senate committee would be composed of highly placed individuals unknown to us. I was surprised to learn that the Official Languages Committee was going to travel to hear us. And when I read the committee membership list, I immediately noticed the name of my good friend, Maria Chaput, and it makes me feel so good to see her here. I see that you have some well-known stars on your committee. I would have liked to have washed the floor, like Senator Viola Léger, because I have seen her perform a few times.
I would like to welcome you to Manitoba. Your presence amongst us is highly appreciated.
As to the subject of our discussion today, I would first of all like to indicate that the post-secondary level supports the other levels. It has been demonstrated that the early childhood, primary/secondary and post-secondary education levels are inexorably interconnected. We are three links of a chain. All three of our presentations are based on the same common denominator, namely, our status as a minority group, and all the consequences that this entails.
In addition, all three of our presentations conclude by making an appeal for more resources that will enable us to promote the development of our community, which is always struggling to overcome the strong tendency to assimilate. And none of these three levels should be neglected, because we all know that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
That being said, I will spend the next few minutes highlighting the points that you suggested we cover in your invitation.
First of all, access to post-secondary education. Let us take a look at the past. French education in Manitoba existed long before our territory became a province in the Canadian federation. Symbolically, French education began with the arrival of Monseigneur Provencher in the Red River colony back in 1818. Indeed, he began teaching the colony's boys at that time.
When our province joined the Canadian federation in 1870, it was Louis Riel, the father of Manitoba and the Metis Franco-Manitoban hero, who was the chief negotiator of this agreement. Showing the outmost respect for the two peoples, he decreed that our province was officially bilingual. However, our rights were then brutally violated. For more than 50 years, we were essentially deprived of French education in the public system.
In a nutshell, it was not until 1970 that legislation authorized education provided totally in French in Manitoba. But this legislation did not resolve everything. Indeed, measures were meted out sparingly and it took massive demonstrations and uprisings before we were able to avail ourselves of the provisions of this act. The problem is that the implementation of the provisions was not allowed. The anglophone majorities sitting on all of the provinces' school boards — with the exception of one, the Red River School Board Division — had to be sufficiently fair-minded to allow us to establish French-language schools.
We did not gain control over our school system until 1994. We noted that we had been surreptiously waging a battle against a plaque over the years. Indeed, we observed that we had suffered losses. Some of our people had discreetly crossed the floor to the majority side. Some were quite lost whereas others were sliding over to the majority side. In a nutshell, when we finally regained our rights, some of our people no longer wanted them, whereas others, for all kinds of reasons, believed that they were no longer able to avail themselves of such rights. This is a kind of cancer that has been eating away at us.
The access we talk about can be defined in two ways. There is the usual meaning, namely, that we must obviously provide a range of courses and programs that is as broad as possible because our community, like the majority, must develop in all sectors. The second meaning of the word "access" that I referred to earlier, ties into the notion that we have to offer guidance, set up an incentive, awareness and support system to convince our people that they are capable of pursuing post-secondary education in French, and that this is something that is both desirable and beneficial.
We then need to wrap them in a security net which they need in order to be successful in their pursuit of post-secondary education in French, a language which is no longer, in many cases, their real first language. We are still in the process of building our French education system, at all levels, and time is of the essence.
Bearing in mind this historical background, I will now deal with the question of access to post-secondary education. Three tables will enable you to see the progress achieved at the Collège from the late 60s until today. In Table No. 1, you can see that, in 1968, we provided a BA program at the Faculty of Arts, and 174 students were enrolled.
Table 2 indicates the different specializations added in 1983. Two hundred and twenty-five students were enrolled in the BA program majoring in French, in the BA program majoring in translation and in the bachelor of science program. The Faculty of Education now offered a BA in education, a pre-master's program and a master's program and there were 271 enrollments. At the community college, under the same governance as the Corporation collège de Saint-Boniface, there were three programs in 1983: business administration, with 47 enrollments; bilingual secretarial skills, which also had 47 enrollments; and an oral French program, which was designed for anglophones who wanted to improve their knowledge of the language, and there we had a total of 770 enrollments. So you can see that we have had a significant increase in enrollments.
Let us now look a Table No. 3. Today, in 2003, the number of enrollments at the Collège universitaire has risen to 4,944. Look at the programs that have been added. We now offer a degree in business administration as well as a master's in Canadian studies, a program that is provided through the Internet.
The Education Faculty has seen its enrollments increase. The technical and professional school, which replaced the community college, is now offering six new programs. Our continuing education section provides many courses to both the francophone and anglophone clientele.
At the college, we have added career counselling services because our clientele has diversified tremendously over the past few years. We now have 1,100 enrollments in the university and college sectors. Approximately 50 per cent of these clients come from francophone schools in Manitoba, 35 per cent come from immersion schools and 50 per cent are students from other countries or provinces.
We have therefore added support or guidance services to meet the needs of this clientele, the immersion clientele, and our francophones. In particular, I am thinking about our language support services. This is an extremely important and essential service if our students, who are coming from our schools and also the immersion schools, are to be successful. Given the fragility of our clientele, alluded to earlier as a consequence of being a marginalized majority, these support programs are essential and require considerable resources.
Take, for example, the issue of recruitment, language training and cultural activities. The federal-provincial agreement covering the period from 1998 to 2003 assisted us tremendously in creating new services and in promoting others. We are grateful and we would like to thank the government authorities, both at the federal and provincial levels, who agreed to support us. A lot of work remains to be done.
As regards fixed assets, given that we are accepting more and more international students, we would like to build a new student residence. We would also like to add classrooms and offices and we need to become more computerized.
Based on the past 30 years, it is expected that the implementation of the business plan will lead to a significant increase in student enrollment. By increasing and enriching our program and services, the college will be in a better position to attract and retain more students. It could also attract more graduates of the immersion school system and increase the clientele coming from other Canadian provinces and countries. The college has therefore embarked on an ambitious recruiting program. The results of the first few years have exceeded the annual targets set by the Collège.
Two significant problems pertaining to the federal-provincial agreements must be drawn to your attention so that you can possibly remedy them. First of all, the agreements for the benefit of the minority language communities are negotiated between two government levels only. The community itself, through its authorized representatives, is not involved in the process whatsoever. In our opinion, this does not make sense. With all due respect to the provincial representatives negotiating these agreements on our behalf, we cannot expect them to be as aware of our situation as we are.
I am not at all suggesting that this role be taken away from them. I am simply saying that these negotiations would lead to better results if they involved all three parties, in cooperation with the minority official language community.
Second, as regards the negotiation of these federal-provincial agreements, the various beneficiaries of the community compete with each other. So when a costly project is funded in one particular year, the other beneficiaries have to tighten their belts. Such competition amongst us is not desirable. To the contrary, we should be supportive of each other rather than be forced to compete with one another.
Finally, as to the question of access, I believe that I have demonstrated the need to renew a generous second five-year agreement promptly. Our agreement has expired and, as we await the renewal of the next agreement, I must confess that this has posed some difficulties for us for the years 2003 and 2004. The Collège must submit its application and indicate its requirements. And, indeed, there is a real problem with the financial structure of our institutions.
As for the role and impact of post-secondary education in the minority language on community life, I would like to repeat that the three levels of French education, whether it be early childhood, primary/secondary education or post-secondary education, constitute an inextricably interconnected trio. Each sector plays a key role and has a major impact on the life of the community. If early childhood, primary and secondary education do not produce good results, in terms of cognitive development or language skills, these graduates will not be in any position to pursue post-secondary education in French. On the other hand, if there are no viable post-secondary programs, the parents of all of these youths will no doubt be less inclined to enrol their children in French programs.
Moreover, the loop between post-secondary education and the other levels is being closed in another way. It is the graduates of post-secondary programs who are coming back into the system to work as early childhood educators or teachers.
On another issue, we know that it is the adult population with post-secondary education that tends to assume leadership roles within their communities. If the francophone post-secondary system yields only a small number of graduates in a limited number of sectors, this will obviously cause a very regrettable vacuum in terms of influential francophone presence within the community. In the past, our institution provided a classical education to train basically male candidates — there were no female candidates — for the so-called professions. Francophones were notably absent from the higher ranks of just about any other sector in the work world.
As a result of the increase in the number of programs provided at the Collège, this problem has been considerably alleviated, but we must not sit on our laurels. We must think about adding all of the training and programs likely to interest a large number of students. For programs that are more specialized, more focused and less sought after, we have to think about using other means. We will discuss the issue of distance education at a later point.
No one can claim that post-secondary education in the minority language in itself will have a decisive impact on the life and vitality of a community. It would probably be more appropriate to view this factor as part and parcel of a whole series of factors that will have a decisive impact on community life.
As a result of our having to keep our French underground at the school level for more than 50 years, significant sectors of our community have felt alienated and marginalized. Some francophones no longer dared to dream, no longer wanted to keep French alive, no longer wanted to pursue post-secondary education in French. Moreover, the only way to access certain sectors was to leave Manitoba. Some have done this, and many have not come back. We have seen even more alienation amongst the members of the francophone community; they have dropped the cause and large numbers have assimilated.
This plague was to some extent reduced by federal and provincial government initiatives further to the tabling of the Laurendeau-Dunton report. Slowly, ever so slowly, our community has begun to become vital again. Of course, we are still suffering losses amongst our ranks, but we now have a system to support French, and in our province, post-secondary education in French must be viewed as a key pillar to this infrastructure that is indispensable to our survival and development.
It is extremely important to normalize life in French in all sectors. If education is the only institution where people can experience life in French, that may lead people to believe that French is only important in education. However, the greater the number of life sectors — recreation, health, media, sports, et cetera, where French is present, the greater the tendency to normalize and value French. Consequently, that makes the work of our francophone educational institutions easier and, in addition, that cannot help but allow our educational institutions to achieve their first goal, which is education, and their identity and cultural objectives.
The greater the number of community members with post-secondary education in French in the widest possible range of sectors, the easier it is to see evidence of life in French becoming normalized and even valued. This normalization and appreciation are occurring on a progressive basis. We must therefore continue broadening the range of programming and consolidate existing programs in accordance with the approach previously outlined.
Now let us talk about the role and impact of distance education. Under the heading "Access to post-secondary education," at the beginning of this presentation, I emphasized that the Collège must have the resources required to provide, on a conventional basis, all the programs that are useful to our clients. Certain other programs, for example, those that are highly specialized with limited enrollment, can be offered in a conventional manner but only at a really prohibitive cost. Under these circumstances, we can turn to distance education and this can be offered in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances and requirements. I can give you examples of courses that are already being offered through distance education: the psychology course, the translation certificate and the master's in arts are programs that are already provided by the college over the Internet.
These three initiatives should be qualified as resounding successes as they have provided good services to hundreds of students living in remote areas. The Collège's reach has been improved tremendously, since these courses and programs are transmitted throughout the world.
The Collège would like to provide a master's translation program over the Internet. Thanks to globalization, the need for translators is growing as is the need to train those who teach translation throughout the world.
And what would stop this Collège from receiving the business administration master's program provided by the University of Moncton? Distance education allows us to receive programs that are not necessarily provided here but can be provided in partnership with various universities, enabling us to use special resources to provide a program that truly responds to our communities' requirements.
Now let us talk about incentives for finding a job after completing post-secondary studies in the minority language. I alluded to this question earlier when I said that many of our people used to leave the province to pursue higher and professional training elsewhere that was not available here, in French. I indicated that this practice led to a brain drain of Franco-Manitobans because many people chose not to come back to Manitoba once their studies had been completed. These people tended to remain in the regions where they had pursued higher education.
We will in all likelihood be able to eliminate this risk to some extent if we continue providing more and more courses and training here. But the spectre of a brain drain does haunt us still since the good bilingual and trilingual people in Manitoba, who in addition are already trained, will be sought out by other locations in the world.
Earlier, I gave the example of the nursing sciences program, which is being offered in an effective manner through distance learning. We can also point out, at this point, that distance learning and professional job placements in the sector, following post-secondary education in the minority language, go hand in hand. This is the case because, de facto, the students remain in the region and are provided with distance education over the first three years.
However, the University of Ottawa in Manitoba provides training in the fourth year of the program. When there is cooperation between two institutions, we use distance learning to fill in any gaps. We call upon the expertise of professors, moreover, who provide distance learning courses. Our students do not have to travel.
The same applies to the Consortium national de formation en santé, where we have students, Manitoban citizens, who go to the University of Ottawa for medical studies. As an incentive or as a means to further support the training of these students, they are brought back to their region of origin, their province of origin, to do their apprenticeship. They always remain in contact with their professor from the University of Ottawa, but their models, at least, are Manitoban. I think it is extremely important to support this type of program, which should be extended to other sectors as well.
To conclude, I would first of all like to repeat our gratitude for giving us this opportunity to express our views on a matter that is dear to us, and one which is so vital for maintaining the bilingual character of our country, coast to coast.
Despite significant gains and a considerable expansion that the Collège has achieved over the past 30 years, you will have understood that we are still fragile and vulnerable. In addition, you will have understood that we need a tremendous influx of funds, we and our partners in early childhood, at the primary and secondary levels in Manitoba, as do those working in the post-secondary field in other provinces, where French is the minority language.
We feel that the money given to us by the government has been invested wisely to promote the development of our institution. You can rest assured that we will continue to work in cooperation with our partners to use the new resources that we are seeking in the best possible fashion.
The Chairman: Thank you, Madam Gagné, for a very good presentation.
What is the tuition at the Collège de Saint-Boniface and how does it compare with universities having a comparable enrollment?
Ms. Gagné: The students are very privileged in Manitoba because the government has frozen tuition for three years now. So, in comparison with other universities, Manitoban students are, generally speaking, paying a lower tuition than the students attending the universities of Moncton or Ottawa, for example. I believe that Quebec has the lowest tuition fees in Canada.
However, when a student has to travel in order to study, it is obvious that studying medicine at the University of Ottawa is a little bit more costly than it would be to do so here, in Manitoba.
As for the programs provided in Manitoba, when we compare ourselves with other universities, we are charging roughly the same tuition as other Manitoban universities.
The Chairman: Would a Manitoban be paying less in an anglophone university?
Ms. Gagné: He would be paying the same thing here, in Manitoba.
The Chairman: In the region, in the province?
Ms. Gagné: Tuition is comparable.
The Chairman: Thank you.
Senator Comeau: Madam rector, do you find it difficult to attract professors to come here, to Winnipeg?
Ms. Gagné: Canadian universities are currently experiencing a scarcity of university professors. I would use the nursing sciences program as an example. I am a bit more familiar with this program because I am the one responsible for implementing it. And recruiting a professor from the University of Moncton does not necessarily help the University of Moncton, it is like a theft. That does not meet requirements.
Yes, we do find it difficult to recruit professors. When we request applications, we do not necessarily receive a tonne of replies, and that represents a challenge for the Collège.
In the university sector, the percentage of professors from other provinces or countries is generally quite considerable. This adds to the diversity of our faculty and also enriches both the faculty and teaching. I feel that this is a good thing.
Senator Comeau: You are using new technologies to provide distance education. I think this is very important in Manitoba, where communities are very scattered. Have you been in contact with the Collège de l'Acadie in Nova Scotia, for example, which is now part of the Université Sainte-Anne, to share the experience that they have acquired?
Ms. Gagné: The ironic side to this question is that our communities are not yet completely connected. And, as part of a national network of francophone university education, we have asked that universities be connected, as well as communities. Heritage Canada has even invested in a national distance learning network.
One of the problems is that, in Manitoba, we do not have a telecommunications infrastructure enabling us to broadcast to our regions using video conferences.
However, other technologies do exist. We are still using the telephone for teaching, for example, for programs that we provide in cooperation with the Franco-Manitoban School Division.
As regards our connectivity, compatible networks do exist in other universities, which enables us to exchange courses. We do this, not necessarily with every university in the network, or group of francophone universities outside Quebec, but we do select the partners that we work with to provide certain programs.
The board of directors of the Regroupement des universités francophones hors Québec has given priority to certain programs, including the business administration master's program already offered at the University of Ottawa. We have selected the master's program offered by the University of Moncton as a priority as it is a program that can be broadcast in our respective universities, thereby enabling us to use the resources of our own establishments to teach these courses.
This is great cooperation. The master's in translation program that I mentioned is also a priority program that we would like to offer in cooperation with other universities.
Senator Comeau: Reference was made, in one of this morning's presentations, to the closer ties or openness that there now appears to be at the secondary level between Quebec and Manitoba. Do you see the same thing at the post-secondary level?
Ms. Gagné: With the change in government, clearly there will be movement in this area.
We must not forget that creating partnerships requires, nevertheless, a certain amount of time to get to know each other, and that partnerships are not formed overnight.
Quebec has been very active in terms of cooperation, but I must confess that it has instead emphasized expansion of its French space. This province has maintained good relations with France and also with African francophone countries in order to attract clients to Quebec.
Quebec has focused primarily on this issue. There has been some cooperation with other provinces but, it seems to me that, over the past few years, there has been less. I believe that the francophone universities outside of Quebec have invested more in partnerships between their own universities rather than establishing closer ties with Quebec universities.
Senator Comeau: Is somebody looking after vocational training right now? I am thinking here about the training of electricians, plumbers, carpenters. Do people who wish to be trained in these fields have to go to anglophone colleges?
Ms. Gagné: The Corporation du Collège de Saint-Boniface manages three sectors. It manages the university sector, which is affiliated with the University of Manitoba; it manages the college sector, namely the technical and professional school; and it also manages a continuing education division.
In actual fact, the technical and professional sector has been neglected. So members of the community who wish to pursue studies in these areas either have to go to the anglophone colleges or leave the province. For the most part, they attend anglophone colleges.
Senator Comeau: That is too bad because it is these people, these mechanics and plumbers, who give life to the community.
Ms. Gagné: I agree with you. We will certainly be calling upon our partners in the Franco-Manitoban School Division to deal with these issues.
The Chairman: I would like to go back to the matter of funding. Based on your experience, could you tell us what the federal government contributes to post-secondary education in comparison with other countries? Does the federal government believe in post-secondary education as much as other G8 countries do?
Ms. Gagné: I have not delved into this issue. Perhaps my colleague Raymond would be able to answer this question.
Mr. Raymond Théberge, Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface: If you look at the investments made by the Canadian government compared with investments made by other G8 countries, Canada is always rated as one of the countries that invests the most in education.
What is of note is that when you compare Canada with the United States, you can see that it is the federal government that is investing a lot more money in the universities. Of course France invests a great deal, as does Great Britain.
If the federal government did not fund post-secondary education for francophone communities, we would suffer a terrible setback in that we must understand that the provinces, generally speaking, have not necessarily contributed their fair share, at least not from an historical perspective, to the funding of minority post-secondary education.
We always say that education comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, there is an expectation from the provincial government that the federal government will cover the shortfall between funding requirements and resources.
The Chairman: Ms. Gagné, on page 8 of your brief, you said that you have to compete with other groups. Is this competition with other francophone universities in a minority situation?
Ms. Gagné: I was working at the Canadian francophone college and CEGEP network during the years when we were investing in colleges: the Cité collégiale, the Collège boréal, the college in Toronto, Collège des Grand-lacs. Very little investment was being made elsewhere. And in Manitoba, when we were building our Student Centre, I am sure that the Franco-Manitoban School Division did not have access to very much money to carry out this project. Resource sharing is done on a regional basis. When one component receives a large amount of money, the others have to be satisfied with very little.
The Chairman: When such agreements are made, are you consulted as the rector of Collège Saint-Boniface?
Ms. Gagné: The agreements are made based on documents that we prepare, where we outline our requirements. We prepare a business plan, a development plan and it is on the basis of these plans that the agreements are negotiated.
We know that education comes under provincial jurisdiction. However, the federal government position always focuses on development. The federal government wants to develop and then it withdraws and it is up to the province to keep the programs going.
I will give you an example: recruiting was funded in order to increase the number of students. We cannot stop recruiting after five years. If the federal government invests in a recruiting plan, we have to necessarily ensure that it is maintained. And as far as development is concerned, funding is always done on a piecemeal basis. We cannot finance on a piecemeal basis. Funding has to be done on a regular basis so that we can have some stability in our planning.
The Chairman: How do you feel about the national test that is administered at the end of high school?
Ms. Gagné: I have not had an opportunity to think about it.
Mr. Théberge: As a former dean of the Faculty of Education, I can answer that question. Over the past few years, we have been thinking about how to establish national standards for certain competencies, in mathematics, reading, science, et cetera.
We are already doing this, to some extent, with the school performance indicators program. The problem with national standards arises from the diversity of programs that exist from one province to the next. And we have noticed a significant difference in the results obtained from the two official language groups.
The Chairman: Thank you. This question is purely a personal one and is not part of the committee's mandate.
Senator Chaput: Today several witnesses have talked about the way that federal-provincial agreements on education are negotiated and they have said that the negotiations occur between the two levels of government without any consultation from the communities.
I have also heard certain groups ask the government to be included in these negotiations. Up until now, that has not been the case.
In your opinion, Ms. Gagné, which government would be the most open to this idea, and how could we go about establishing a federal-provincial-community tripartite agreement?
Ms. Gagné: That is a good question. Depending on which governments are in power, the answer could change.
The Collège currently has a very good relationship with the province of Manitoba. We follow a certain process to have budgets approved and to approve programs. Furthermore, the province has indicated that, for the next agreement, they would like us to get involved, not necessarily at the negotiating stage, but in the preparation of the agreement.
That seems very open to me. During the last round of negotiations, which occurred five years ago, we were told that only the province and the federal government would be sitting at the table to negotiate the agreement.
As far as what government would be the most open to the idea of having us sit at the table right now, I would be inclined to say that this would be provincial government.
Senator Chaput: Thank you.
Ms. Gagné: But even at that, I must caution you. I have not lived through this, I have not done any checking. I have been in this position for less than two months. This is only an impression that I have.
[English]
Senator Keon: Let me compliment you on an absolutely superb presentation.
Ms. Gagné: Thank you.
Senator Keon: You have made a tremendous accomplishment. Having said that, I noticed that you offer a number of baccalaureate degrees. You seem to offer one master's degree, perhaps more. How do the select few of your students — la crème de la crème — access the enormous intellectual wealth of the Francophonie? On the anglophone side, these paths of advancement are pretty well known, particularly in America, Great Britain and elsewhere, where they are.
You mentioned that the rapport and the connections between Quebec and France are quite good. I am aware of that myself. What connections are there to facilitate life for your students? I was a professional student myself for many years and have many degrees. However, my mentors seemed to be always opening doors for the next stage. I am wondering how you see the network unfolding for your students.
[Translation]
Ms. Gagné: You must understand that most of the professors who work in our institutions are members of all kinds of networks, networks involving researchers, networks of associates or contacts that they have when they leave the province.
At the university, I believe that advancement is achieved primarily through the sharing networks, and, because of this way of doing things in our universities, although we are small, our professors are very well-connected. It is through these connections that we can open the door to students who tend to leave the province in order to pursue their education in the various specialized fields.
We have students who leave the province to continue their studies in Quebec universities, at the University of Ottawa or in anglophone universities. It is often through contacts such as those I have just described that our students are exposed to all kinds of opportunities.
[English]
Have I answered your question?
Senator Keon: I think so, yes. I think you have answered it. There comes a time in education where, like infectious disease that knows no barriers, it is a global phenomenon.
[Translation]
Ms. Gagné: The possibilities are unlimited.
[English]
Senator Keon: Young francophone students frequently do not get as many opportunities as anglophone students. How do you mentor them?
[Translation]
Ms. Gagné: I would say just by the number of opportunities. We are nonetheless limited, depending on what the student wants to do and what sector he wants to get into. Yes, your conclusion is accurate, it is limited by the number of opportunities that exist in English compared with those that exist for our francophone students. I fully agree with you.
The Chairman: How do you recruit within the province, other provinces and internationally?
Ms. Gagné: We visit schools, all of the francophone schools in Manitoba and the immersion schools. We also travel to other provinces, in Ontario and also in Saskatchewan. We recruit in France, Mali and Senegal.
We have recruiting officers who visit the various regions. We have a recruiting officer in Senegal and in France as well, who is in contact with the Collège when a student is interested in applying.
The Chairman: Is that done through the Agence de la francophonie?
Ms. Gagné: No, not at all. We look after our own recruiting. And we have our own recruiting officers.
The Chairman: Did you tell us the percentage of students who come from other provinces or countries?
Ms. Gagné: I mentioned it earlier. It is about 15 per cent of the student population.
The Chairman: Ms. Gagné, I would like to thank you for a very wonderful presentation.
[English]
Honourable senators, we are very privileged that our next witnesses have taken time from their busy agendas to appear before us today. I think we will just listen to each other. They will listen to us and we will listen to them, and then we will decide what we will put in our report.
We came to Winnipeg to hear about how education is very important for people who live in minority situations. This morning we discussed early childhood education and post-secondary education.
We will now hear from the Honourable Ron Lemieux, Minister of Education and Youth.
Hon. Ron Lemieux, Minister of Education and Youth, Province of Manitoba: It is my pleasure to be here.
Education is important to us all and today we are dealing with a specific group of people in Manitoba. It will be our pleasure to make some comments in that regard.
I should like to say that we are very proud of Maria Chaput from Ste. Anne, Manitoba. My own constituency of La Vérendrye encompasses the community of Ste. Anne within that and she is held in the highest regard.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak to you, the honourable members of the Senate of Canada's Standing Committee on Official Languages. I wish to thank for inviting our government to this fact-finding forum. I thank you also for providing me with the opportunity to share with your our many successes as well as concerns and challenges in meeting the needs of the francophone and anglophone communities in Manitoba.
The Bureau de l'éducation française, BEF, is an important division of the Department of Manitoba Education and Youth. Its mandate is to develop and evaluate, administer policies and programs relating to French-language education. The division offers a complete range of services, including all the programs emanating from the Official Languages and Education Programming as well as Canada-Manitoba Auxiliary Agreements, which help fund minority language education and second language programs. The bureau provides services to francophone and French immersion schools and to those schools offering basic French. In addition, the bureau maintains a liaison with the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface.
In 2002-03, 5,273 francophone and 17,194 French immersion students were enrolled in the public school system; 70,853 basic French pupils were enrolled in public schools and another 7,787 in Manitoba's independent schools. These students benefited from the grants and from the services of this division.
The Government of Manitoba is strongly committed to French minority language education and will continue to collaborate with schools to deliver quality programming. In partnership with the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine, DSFM, we continue to pursue initiatives to best meet the needs of the francophone community. Since its inception in 1994, the school division has grown to 23 schools dispersed over a large territory in both the urban and rural areas. Many important projects have recently been realized through partnerships with the community and the governments of Canada and of Manitoba.
In February 2002, St. Vital celebrated the official opening of a new elementary school, École Christine-Lespérance. Administered by the DSFM, this school serves a population of some 442 students from kindergarten to Grade 8.
In January 2003, we announced an important new development: the construction of the Complexe scolaire et communautaire in St. Vital, which will become the second francophone high school located in Winnipeg. It will be different from other high schools across the country in that it will allow minority language educational services through to the end of high school. It will also offer a variety of other community-based activities and services as well as training courses in health, business, creative arts and family science.
In early October of this year, construction of the new building to house l'école Jours de Plaine commenced in Laurier, Manitoba.
Another positive development to be noted is that our government modified the Public Schools Act as recommended in the Cenerini report and as requested by the DSFM. It now allows direct elections of trustees by parents and supports an enabling approach regarding regional committees.
Honourable members, another important initiative has recently been undertaken. The Government of Manitoba has hired Mr. Jean Comtois, an independent consultant, to carry out a comprehensive review of programs, sources of revenue and financial operations of the DSFM. The focus of this review is to secure a long-term sustainable funding regime for the DSFM. Mr. Comtois will submit a report to the government by the end of this fall. This review will include specific recommendations and it is our hope that they will respond to the financial sustainability of the DSFM.
I should like to speak to partnerships with other jurisdictions. The BEF is actively involved in partnerships on the national scale.
For example, in October 2000, all ministers of the Council of Ministers in Education, Canada agreed to share expertise and resources — both human and financial — in the Pan-Canadian French as a First Language Project. A consortium of all jurisdictions except Yukon and Quebec participated in the project and funded it jointly with Canadian Heritage.
The project's steering committee comprised representatives from Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario and Manitoba — the latter two provinces respectively led the work of the two pan-Canadian working teams. Manitoba served as lead jurisdiction for the francization segment of the project. It is designed to promote the enhancement of minority-setting francophone students' school performance.
"Francization" can be broadly described as a process that involves a set of measures taken at the preschool or elementary school level to assist students with underdeveloped or non-existent language skills in French. The first aim is to help students acquire the language skills required to undertake studies successfully in a francophone school. The second aim is to help students develop their francophone culture and identities.
Manitoba collaborated with other provinces and territories throughout the Pan-Canadian French as a First Language Project to develop a francization training kit for teachers of students from kindergarten to grade 2. Designed to guide and promote francization effort by teachers as well as the future development of francization resources by publishers, the kit was publicly released on October 2 of this year in Toronto. It contains a book, a CD-ROM, four charts in large format, and a support document. This kit has been very well received and is appreciated by teachers across jurisdictions.
The BEF is also collaborating, with the other three western provinces and territories under the Western and Northern Canadian Protocol, WNCP, on various curriculum-related projects for both French first language and French second language.
The BEF division has been the lead jurisdiction for the greatest number of initiatives carried out by the WNCP. An example of such a project is the Kindergarten to Grade 9 Social Studies Curriculum Framework of Learning Outcomes that was developed having specific francophone and aboriginal perspectives.
The bureau allocates resources to support its second-language clientele. In April 2000, we released a report entitled "French Immersion: Finding Focus Groups with School Administrators," based on a study undertaken to better understand the needs. In January 2002, a report was written on the Survey of 1998 and 1999 Manitoba French immersion graduates. In June 2002, focus groups with French immersion teachers were held to collect their perceptions on several aspects on Manitoba's French immersion programs. The French immersion clientele welcomed the conference, "French Immersion in Manitoba: Meeting the Challenge" December 2000 and a second provincial conference, French Immersion in Manitoba: Building Connexions" in December 2002. The revision of Basic French Guidelines is presently underway.
Historically, the bureau has offered a complete range of services including curriculum development and implementation, professional development, educational support services, assessment, library and materials production. The BEF has also administered federal assistance programs aimed at promoting the use of the official languages in education.
I wanted to stress the significant connections that the Bureau de l'éducation française has with the francophone community. The liaison between the francophone community and the Government of Manitoba is essential. The BEF deals with all the issues and with the government. As they are on the front line, they have the ability to put those views forward to government as well as the expertise to assist us. For example, they have had a collaborative relationship with the DSFM since 1994. Honourable senators, I wanted to ensure that you are aware of the bureau and its expertise in working closely with our francophone community and partners in Manitoba.
I will now turn to the activities of the Official Languages in Education Program, which is important to the delivery of quality programs and services.
Manitoba utilizes revenue from the Official Languages in Education program to provide grants to public and independent schools for francophone and anglophone groups; to fund French language post-secondary education — which my colleague, Diane McGifford, will describe — particularly the university and community college programs. The funds are also used to support a broad range of non-governmental organizations that provide Manitobans with the opportunity of learning the French language, of being educated in the French language and of being exposed to the culture of the French-speaking minority in Manitoba. Finally, the resources provide bursaries for Manitobans studying at French language institutions in Canada.
I would like to point out the following set of examples of funding. Financial support has increased from $205 to $225, an increase of $20 per full-time equivalent in French first language; from $205 to $225, an increase or $20 per full time equivalent in French immersion; and from $80 to $90, an increase of $10 per full-time equivalent in basic French effective 2001-2002. Half of this grant is supported by Manitoba. These grants are over and above regular provincial funding regimes. In the year 2003-2004, this level of extra support represents $5.7 million for the school system.
The summer language bursary program provides senior 4 and post-secondary students with the opportunity to learn one of Canada's official languages as their second official language and to improve their knowledge of the culture associated with that language. In 2003-2004, about 300 bursaries were awarded to Manitoba students to study French, principally in the Province of Quebec.
The Official Language Monitor Program is jointly administered with the Council of Ministers in Education, Canada. Through this national program, part-time and full-time second language monitors are provided to educational bodies to help second-language teachers convey to students the real life aspects of the language they are studying and awareness of the culture associated with the language. Part-time and full-time monitors are also provided to francophone minority regions where French is the principal language of instruction to develop students' knowledge of their language and culture.
In 2003-2004, Manitoba will benefit from the services of 16 full- and 21 part-time language monitors assigned to français (four full-time and three part-time) and French immersion (12 full-time and 18 part-time) schools.
The Canada-Manitoba Auxiliary or Special Agreements have been particularly important in allowing the development of many worthwhile projects to support the implementation of new initiatives in the area of French-language education.
The Canada-Manitoba Special Agreement on Investment Measures for Quality Education in the Language of the Minority has allowed the DSFM to enhance its programs. It represents $30 million over five years of which Manitoba has contributed half of that total, $15 million, or an average of $3 million per year.
The Canada-Manitoba Subsidiary Agreement on the Development of the Université de Saint-Boniface has focused on program enhancement and the construction of the student centre for the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface.
Finally, there is the Canada-Manitoba Auxiliary Agreement on the Construction of the school/community complex in South St. Vital, as I mentioned earlier.
In summary, the Official Languages and Education Program and the Auxiliary Agreements have been extremely useful in assisting to meet the needs of the francophone and anglophone communities in Manitoba by providing assistance to fund minority language and second language education.
However, I must express our concerns regarding important aspects of Canada's support of the OLE program. In March 1998, the Honourable Sheila Copps, Minister of Canadian Heritage, announced Canada's commitment to the OLE program for a five-year period covered by the Protocol from the period 1998 to 2002-2003. For Manitoba, the announcement represented a 17.3 per cent year-to-year reduction in Canada's contribution under the program for 1998-99 compared with 1997-98. Over the five-year period of the proposed protocol, the announcement represented a 17.8 per cent reduction over the previous five-year period.
The OLE program has experienced constant reductions in federal contributions since 1991-92. As a result, Manitoba has had to assume a larger share of the costs associated with minority-language and second-language programs and has had to cut back on funding provided to the CUSB and non-government organizations.
Over the past decade, Canada has entered into agreements under the OLE umbrella that have resulted in a reduction in the amount of resources otherwise available for basic program funding under the protocol of agreements. For this reason, Manitoba is concerned that the negotiation of special agreements by Canada effectively results in a reduction in the OLE contributions to the provinces and territories.
Manitoba considers it very important to secure long-term commitment from Canada for the sustainability of all programs that have been developed through support of bilateral agreements. I am sure you have probably heard from previous witnesses how important that sustainability is.
We take pride in the face that we have worked very closely with many of our federal colleagues, including Stéphane Dion and Denis Coderre and others who work closely with Minister Copps. However, in order to have a sustainable program, we feel that our federal colleagues have to step up to the plate and work with us on many of these agreements.
Manitoba considers it very important, as I mentioned, to secure long-term a commitment from Canada for the sustainability of all programs coming out of bilateral agreements. Honourable members, we have pursued very important initiatives with very positive results. However, in the upcoming years we will be encountering considerable challenges. The five-year federal Action Plan on Official Languages announced by Minister Dion is welcomed. People in the education sector of the province of Manitoba look forward to creating our initiatives and developing our action plan. It is certainly our intention to proceed in a fully collaborative and consultative manner with our educational partners to develop Manitoba's action plan. It will be a challenge for the Government of Manitoba to find extra funds to match the federal dollars and thus access them. I suspect all the provinces will find that and that it comes as no news to you.
We need to respond to a number of challenges in the minority language education. In Manitoba — as in the rest of Canada — our student population is evolving through immigration, a high rate of assimilation, and the growth of non-French speaking homes. In this context, developing policies and programs to meet the needs of students with little or no fluency in French is a concern for Manitoba that is shared by all provinces and territories.
You know, you look at someone sitting before you today. Ron Lemieux, it is a beautiful French name. I grew up in a community of Dauphin, Manitoba. It is regrettable in the 1950s and 1960s that my parents felt that English had to be the working language — that if their children were to succeed in post-secondary education or any kind of career, their language had to be English.
In Manitoba, we have taken it upon ourselves to make sure that children who have French as their mother tongue the language of French, or want to learn the language can have every opportunity to be educated in that language. We are committed to that.
I am proud of the fact that my children are fluently bilingual and converse with my mother and relatives in their mother tongue. For me it is somewhat regrettable that I must now take language courses and tutoring to learn to speak French, which was my parents' language.
We are faced with the reality that there has been a gradual decrease in enrolment in French and second-language programs. In 1991-1992, enrolment in French second-language schools peaked at about 10.24 per cent. Currently, they represent about 9.26 per cent of total school population.
Goals announced in the Minister Dion's action plan in March have received considerable attention in the French-language community. The announcement said, "According to the 2001 census, the proportion of eligible students enrolled in francophone schools was French 68 per cent." The plan's objective is to bring that proportion up to 80 per cent in ten years' time. Another goal cited was "doubling within ten years, the number of high school graduates with a working knowledge of both English and French." Related to these goals is the need to increase the number of qualified teachers and teacher specialists in both French first language and second language programs.
I would like to reiterate our government's commitment to work collaboratively and energetically toward the achievement of these goals. These are major policy items that we need to address. To respond efficiently to these challenges and to provide constructive responses, we will be seeking the full measure of federal support and community input.
In conclusion, we appreciate the government of Canada's significant contributions made in the area of French language education for minority language and second language programs outside of the province of Quebec.
The federal-provincial partnership has been valuable to better serve the linguistic communities in French-language education. The federal contributions continue to play an important role in ensuring the development and progress of French-language education in our province. It is our hope that the response to the concerns that we have expressed will be positive.
I wish to thank the honourable members of the Senate of Canada's Standing Committee on Official Languages for the opportunity to speak to you today. I thank you for your attention to my address on the successes, concerns and challenges of elementary and secondary French-language education in Manitoba.
The Chairman: Before we hear from Ms. McGifford, I would like you to introduce to us for the purposes of the record the members of your staff who are here with us, please.
Mr. Lemieux: To my right is Mr. Guy Roy, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Bureau de l'éducation française. To my left is Jacqueline Gosselin, a director with BEF.
The Chairman: I would like to introduce to you my colleagues, the Deputy Chair of the Committee, Senator Wilbert Keon, from Ontario; Senator Maria Chaput, who does take the role of representative, the representative role that we have in the Senate.
[Translation]
She represents Franco-Manitobans very well.
Senator Comeau, from Nova Scotia, who does a very good job representing of all of Nova Scotia, the Atlantic region and all of Canada.
[English]
Senator Léger, from New Brunswick, is an international artist and actress.
I taught school over 30 years in New Brunswick. As an educator, I feel I am having a field day today.
Minister McGifford, please proceed.
Hon. Diane McGifford, Minister of Advanced Education and Training, Province of Manitoba: Madam Chair, I will begin anecdotally by telling the Committee that I am proud of my daughters who are both bilingual. One of them has spent two years in France in school and is happy to chaperone me to France any time I wish to go because I am not bilingual. Well, I have taken her up on that.
I should like to thank the honourable members of the Senate Committee on Official Languages for presenting me with the opportunity to speak on the issue of post-secondary education in the French language.
The principle asset that promotes post-secondary education in the French language in Manitoba is the Collège de Saint-Boniface. The Collège, western Canada's oldest post-secondary institution, is well known for the quality of its education and the success of its graduates. The Collège is dedicated to the promotion of the French language and the development of the Franco-Manitoban culture. It is a valuable resource to this province — a fact recognized by people throughout the province.
The recognition of the Collège as a valuable institution has been accomplished in two ways. First, Manitoba has placed a priority on developing French-language programming; and second, in 1998, Manitoba entered into a five-year agreement with the Government of Canada to support the Collège.
On the topic of provincial investment, over the last five years, Manitoba has approved a total of 12 new programs and initiatives, representing more than $1.5 million in new funding. This investment has broadened the programming and services offered at the Collège.
For instance, in the last five years, the following programs and services have been added to the Collège: English as a second language; Internet Bank of Resources, Electronic Publications of the À Vous Collection; Science at your Fingertips; Virtual Gateway to the Multimedia market; Nursing Diploma Program; Health Care Aid; Tourism Diploma; Health Care Training; Biology on the Internet; Meeting Place for French as a Second Language; and, Certificate in Translation on the Internet.
In 2000-2001, the Government of Manitoba provided $1.1 million and in 2002-03, another $1.2 million in funding was provided to support capital needs at the Collège. The commitment of the government of Manitoba to French-language post-secondary education has been significant, equalling $3.5 million in just the last five years in addition to the five-year funding agreement.
In recognition of the value of the Collège, in 1998, Canada and Manitoba entered into a five-year funding agreement to support the expansion of important and innovative programming at the Collège. This agreement, which provided an annual funding increase of $559,000 for the Collège, has allowed such innovative programming as a multimedia diploma, a Masters of Arts in Canadian Studies, and a Bachelor of Business Administration offered in the French language. Furthermore, the agreement has allowed for the creation of the centre Éducatique, a multimedia centre that supports programming and other activities, and it also allowed for improved recruitment and promotion of the Collège.
Honourable senators have asked that I speak to the community perspective on access to post-secondary education in the French language.
The funding agreement, and the other funding provided to the Collège through the provincial government, has improved access to French-language higher education in this province.
Since 1997-1998, the year before the five-year agreement was implemented, full-time equivalent undergraduate enrolment in all sessions has increased by 74.4 per cent from 391 students in 1997-1998 to 661 students in 2002-2003. This remarkable achievement speaks to the impact that the Collège has had on the Franco-Manitoban community and, I might add, on the staff and faculty of the Collège. The Collège is working towards a long-term goal of enrolling 1,500 students per year by the return; 2012-2013 academic year in regular programs, and 3,500 continuing education students per year by 2012-2013.
Post-secondary education in the French language has had a significant impact on the life of the Franco-Manitoban community. The Collège works in partnership with stakeholders in industry to ensure that its programming continues to be relevant to the needs of employers. Some of these employers provide input and structure into the content and curricula of the Collège's programs, and others provide work placements for on-the-job training and co-operative education opportunities for students.
In return, Manitoba acquires dedicated citizens trained to work in both official languages, who are better able to contribute to both the economy and to the culture of the province.
You also asked me to speak to the incentives for introducing professional development after completed post-secondary education in the French language.
Continuing education at the Collège continues to grow; and as I mentioned earlier, the Collège is working towards increasing their continuing education enrolment from the approximately 2,800 today to 3,500 by 2012-13.
There is still a need for further investment. The Government of Manitoba has invested significantly in post-secondary education since 2000-2001. In fact, since that time, our government has increased its investment in post-secondary education by 25 per cent as compared to 16 per cent during the 1990s.
The Government of Manitoba is committed to post-secondary education in general and shares a strong commitment with the federal government in post-secondary education in the French language. Over the last five years, our mutual interest in this important activity has strengthened the Franco-Manitoban community greatly.
Our investments, however, must be sustainable over time. Direct funding to support the creation of new programs and new infrastructure occur ongoing operating costs in staff salaries and benefits, utilities and ongoing maintenance.
The Government of Manitoba would like to emphasize that funds are required to sustain the current level of operations to allow for long-term support of the innovative programs that both levels of government have created through the funding agreement.
I look forward to our continuing partnership as we work together to support French-language post-secondary education in Manitoba.
Thank you for the honour and the opportunity to speak with you today.
The Chairman: Thank you very much.
Minister Lemieux, you talked about Minister Dion's action plan and mentioned that you are ready to cooperate. To what degree would you say you have established programs or attainable measures to meet the objectives that are in that plan?
[Translation]
Mr. Roy, do you wish to answer?
Mr. Guy Roy, Assistant Deputy Minister, French Education Office: We met with our federal counterparts in July to develop a work schedule for this purpose. I think that it is important to understand that the Dion plan was developed over two years, right? And, I would also point out, in the absence of the ministries of Education, unfortunately.
And we reached an agreement with the Department of Heritage to be given a certain length of time. They mentioned the month of November but I think that we need more time so that we can conduct the consultations that are required with our partner organizations, be it the Franco-Manitoban School Division, the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface, all of the non-government groups, et cetera.
So it is a beginning and we have not come up with a precise plan of action yet. What I can tell you is that we will eventually outline some measures that will probably be in the form of and spelled out more specifically in special new agreements, such as the recent one pertaining to the Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface and the one that will soon be applicable to the Franco-Manitoban School Division.
In other words, using the Dion action plan, we will be identifying the requirements for the entire province and these requirements will be spelled out specifically and formally through special agreements for the groups that I have just identified.
[English]
Senator Comeau: I would like to first thank the ministers for appearing before us this afternoon because it shows, I believe, your deep commitment to help the French-language communities. I think it is going to be very helpful to this Committee to have heard your presentations and to see that commitment that you have towards the committees.
I understand that you will soon be negotiating with the federal government a new program for the French-language secondary and post-secondary councils. My understanding is that this is done government-to-government without the benefit of having those individuals from those groups sitting at the table with you. Have you considered having them right at the table when you do negotiate with the feds?
Mr. Lemieux: It is correct that negotiations have taken place between the two governments — not only in dealing with education but dealing with culture, heritage and tourism, justice, and other issues. Such negotiations always occur government-to-government.
Having said that, we work on a number of different projects that we work on and we continually get input and feedback on different elements of the negotiations and we have discussions that are ongoing with the francophone community. For example, we worked in partnership with our federal colleagues to establish the new school in South St. Vital. Prior to that announcement, we worked closely with the Société franco-manitobaine with the agreement of Minister Copps. We received their input as to what they wanted to see and I believe that almost everything that deals with the community component that was put into that school came from Mr. Boucher.
The francophone community does indeed have input into a lot of decisions that we make.
Senator Comeau: I am not questioning your commitment. My impression is that they would like to be at the table in case your officials miss the nuances of some of their problems. I am sure that your negotiators at the table are doing their best with all good intentions, but sometimes they can miss certain nuances that the community will have a much firmer handle on.
Mr. Lemieux: I can only say that historically it has been, and stands today, government-to-government and that is the way it will remain. That does not mean that there is not plenty of opportunity for many members in the francophone community to have input into a lot of the negotiations.
My officials make sure that they are in constant dialogue with members of the community. We do not want to agree to something or put something in place that would not be for the benefit of francophones in Manitoba.
Senator Comeau: I do not think anybody would.
Mr. Lemieux: I think it is proper for government-to-government negotiations to take place, whether it is dealing with justice issues, tourism issues, sport issues, or education issues. That is the position of the Manitoba government currently.
Senator Comeau: I do not want to belabour the point. I agree that there is an education issue. However, this is also an issue dealing with minority language rights. I think you are an example yourself of your own community having lost something historic, a part of your heritage.
I think there it goes a little bit beyond education. It has to do with who you are.
Mr. Lemieux: Yes.
The Chairman: Minister McGifford, did you wish to add something?
Ms. McGifford: Yes, I should like to speak to the question as well. Our deputy, Mr. Roy, has assured me that he does consult with the community. He is very open to any input that the community. He is our chief negotiator and I know that he is very open to any community ideas, et cetera. I think we have a conduit that is built in there for the purposes for which you are looking.
Senator Comeau: I do not wish to give any impression that the goodwill and the deep commitment of the negotiators of the provincial government with the federal government did anything that was not appropriate. I was just trying to relay a point.
It is one thing to have a negotiator on your behalf, and it is quite another thing to be sitting at the table. I think I have made the point.
My next question concerns that fact that there are a number of schools in Manitoba offering French first language outside the DSFM. How can this be happening that schools outside the DSFM are offering French-language programs? Should it not all be under one wing?
Mr. Lemieux: In 1994, the communities were invited to voluntarily adhere to the francophone school division. Some communities chose not to join the newly formed division and in four communities, some of the schools offer français programs, different from the DSFM. They made a specific choice not to be part of the DSFM, and that was their constitutional right.
The issue concerning exclusivity has been raised in the past and this is something that we have discussed with the DSFM board and others. It continues to be an area of conversation.
Senator Comeau: Are you monitoring whether they are in fact offering a full, a real French-language program, or is it kind of half-English, half-French? Is it really a French-language program?
Mr. Lemieux: I will Mr. Roy to comment on that as he has been monitoring this issue closely.
[Translation]
Mr. Roy: Senator, there are a lot of discrepancies because of historical reasons. These communities have adopted a programming profile in their school and community which, at the time it was adopted, seemed to reflect their requirements. In Manitoba, just about everything that is done in French education is accompanied by some type of conflict or controversy.
Senator Comeau: Yes, I understand.
Mr. Roy: Unfortunately, I think that conflict and controversy are the very hallmarks of development in French education.
During the 60s, for example, there was a cap on French programming, which could account for no more than 50 per cent of the timetable. A few years later, the government of the day, the Schreyer government, adopted Bill 113, which raised the cap to include teaching on all subjects, with the exception of English, of course. Along the way, certain communities that were used to the bilingual programming profile of the 60s have stuck to that.
You must understand that our education system in Manitoba, as is the case in other jurisdictions, is quite decentralized and we feel that it is quite important to have some local autonomy. And the governments are — I am not making a political statement — respectful of the will of communities. And this why we find ourselves in the current situation.
[English]
Senator Léger: I would like to underscore how often we hear parents say that they would have loved to have had the chance to learn both French and English and that they want to ensure their children do have that opportunity.
It has been both stimulating and positive to hear the presentations this morning. It is wonderful to hear about the results of the programs that you have mentioned. It is all very proactive. I imagine there will always be some battles, but that is normal.
In Manitoba, does a parent or a child have the choice of attending either a French school or an English school? You have educational programs for the "minority language." I imagine that means English or French. In Manitoba, that is likely to be French. You also referred to educational programs for the "second language." Is the "second language" French or English? What happens to the Aboriginals? What happens to the immigrants? Where does the French or English fall in there?
[Translation]
Mr. Roy: My responsibilities lie in the area of teaching in French, both for those whose first language is French and for those whose second language is French. Any citizen who wishes to have access to a French program can do so. If this is a citizen of the majority language, namely English, he can access this programming through immersion programs or through the French as a second language course in an anglophone school.
Now, as regards aboriginal languages and the language of instruction or teaching selected by newcomers, usually these programs are provided by the majority language school boards and not by the Franco-Manitoban School Division.
There are some initiatives — and I confess I do not have a complete understanding of this area — that are offered in aboriginal languages which are very valid both for the city of Winnipeg and our northern regions.
Newcomers to Manitoba have a choice of enrolling in majority language institutions where immersion programming is provided. A recent policy adopted by the Société franco-manitobaine pertains to the expansion of the francophone space. This policy also deals with the way that newcomers are welcomed, which includes the school system.
But this leads to the whole issue of francization which the Honourable Senator Lemieux referred to. I believe that there are provisions in place for Arabic-speaking people for instance, who would like to enroll in our francophone schools.
Senator Léger: Does the Ministry of Education truly promote both sides when an immigrant arrives here? The aboriginal people are not arriving here. They have always been here. Does the Ministry of Education favour one group more than the other or are both groups treated equally in Canada?
Mr. Roy: Student intake is provided by the school boards and the schools directly. The ministry plays a role in issuing policies, developing programming and providing funding. We are not a direct stakeholder with the client, and the ministry's position with respect to these issues is to give the responsibility for student orientation to the school boards.
Earlier I talked to you about the fact that our system is decentralized. I think that is an example of that.
[English]
Senator Léger: Are the stakeholders such as businesses demanding more bilingual services? Is there a demand that would naturally encourage more bilingual people?
Ms. McGifford: I am not quite sure that I am the right person to answer this question. It might better be asked of our Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines who is not with us today.
My assumption would be that businesses always are pleased to have bilingual employees; they obviously serve a very important purpose. That is about the extent to which I can answer your question.
My experience as the Minister of Training is not that there has been a great demand for skills training in French language. However, some of the programs that have been instituted at the Collège provide education en français. The nursing program, for example, is en français. It would be extremely important to have French-speaking nurses in the province.
I am sorry. I have not really answered your question completely, but I have taken a stab at it.
Senator Chaput: I would like to thank the ministers and their staff for being here today. I am quite proud to see the presence of all of you today.
[Translation]
My question deals with the way that these agreements are negotiated. It will come as no surprise to you that I have always believed and firmly believe in the active involvement of the community. I recognize that the negotiation of agreements, for example, the Canada-Manitoba Education Agreement, historically has always been negotiated solely between the two levels of government.
Now that we have the Dion Plan, which will lead to a new series of agreements or new partnerships, is it not time, in Manitoba, to devise something new, and to open the borders so that we can have real agreements with the three partners, the federal government, the provincial government and the community?
Today when I asked the question about which government level, either the federal or provincial level, would be more open to doing things differently, I was told that it was the provincial government.
So I said to myself that we are going to have to work at the federal level. Could we not envision a way of doing things in another way so as to have real tripartite agreements, real partnerships with the active participation of the community, as far as its development is concerned, where it would be sitting around the table and not simply be represented by a negotiator, as good as this person may be?
[English]
Mr. Lemieux: I thought about how I would respond to this question if it came up. It is certainly a very natural question to ask.
We are talking about more than talking about jails or tourism or other issues. There is also the issue of the future of one's cultural survival. However, in respect of the five-year plan that has been put in place and Minister Dion's action plan, all of the recommendations from the community were incorporated by the province.
I know there is a difference between having an interpreter passing on views and having someone directly at the table. However, in respect of having another party at the negotiations, I do not think that is something that is earth shattering. I have always seen the francophone community as being very much involved in this through a partnership with us. We are all in this together. We consult regularly and work very closely with the francophone community in Manitoba. I do not believe that a lot is lost in the translation or a lot is lost by having the government represent the francophone community of Manitoba when we are talking to the federal government because we use their suggestions and their recommendations on how we should go and in developing our plans.
Senator Chaput: My concerns are not about the present. Currently, we are working very well with the present government as you have said. What if, five years from now, we have a different government and then we no longer have this in place to make sure that the relationship we currently enjoy continues?
The Chairman: Thank you very much, both Mr. Lemieux and Ms. McGifford.
I see that our next two distinguished guests, Mr. Gregory Selinger and Mr. Tim Sale are here. Welcome and thank you for being here.
[Translation]
The Hon. Tim Sale, Chairman of the Ministerial Committee on Healthy Children, Ministry of Energy, Science and Technology: Ladies and gentlemen of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, I would first of all like to thank your committee for the opportunity that you have afforded us today to express our point of view. I would also like to take this opportunity to express my government's gratitude for the financial assistance given by the federal government to the agreement on early childhood development.
I presume that you have been told today that Manitoba has made a significant commitment to improve and enrich the lives of young children in our province. Over the past few years, we have invested more than $50 million to set up a network of services to assist those families with young children. Moreover, I would like to point out that, out of this total of $50 million, the Government of Canada will contribute $18.5 million during the course of this fiscal year.
Setting the financial questions aside, we have made structural commitments and come up with models that have been presented to you today. These have resulted in concrete measures.
My colleagues, Ms. Diane McGifford and Mr. Ron Lemieux, are both active members of the Ministerial Committee for Healthy Children, as are the ministers of Health, Family Services and Housing, Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Justice and Culture, Heritage and Tourism. This structure enables us to have a broader vision of the issues affecting families and to make enlightened decisions when we are developing policies or earmarking resources.
The Ministerial Committee for Healthy Children and the Manitoba Healthy Children Program are based on partnerships between the community, the universities and government, and on connections that span an entire life. The Ministerial Committee for Healthy Children recognizes — as does all of my government, moreover — that there is a direct correlation between the services that we currently provide to young children and their future capacity within the school system, their choice to pursue education rather than drop out or become involved in criminal activities, as well as their ability to foresee and carve out a future in which they willingly contribute to the evolution of society.
Our objective, therefore, is to set in motion a gradual and changing process based on lifelong learning and keeping all Manitobans in a good state of health.
We have in fact succeeded in laying some solid groundwork for early childhood. This morning I believe you heard a presentation focusing on certain advances made by the Manitoba Healthy Children Program. Under this program, benefits are paid during the prenatal period, there are community programs for new mothers, home visits to families suffering from stress, a five-year plan to expand our day care system, the program to put an end to fetal alcohol syndrome and 25 parent-children coalitions that make decisions at the local level regarding investments in early childhood.
As regards our francophone community, the contribution made by the Intersectorial Committee for Francophone Families and Communities has been very useful to us. I believe that this committee made a presentation earlier in the day. We have also worked towards achieving equity in service delivery by contributing to the establishment of a coalition of francophone parent-child centres led by the FPCP and the DSFM, and we have considered francophone communities in developing our assessment strategies.
Over the past few years, the Intersectorial Committee for Francophone Families and Communities has created a model of early childhood centres, which was the subject of a joint presentation by the FPCP and DFSM this morning. Once this model has been implemented, we will be able to make great leaps in achieving our objective, namely, equity.
I would like to take this opportunity today to acknowledge willingly that the objective has not yet been reached. Ideally, our francophone families should have unimpeded access to all services provided by the Manitoba Healthy Children Program and their children should start school with all that is necessary to learn about subjects in their mother tongue. Unfortunately, we still have challenges in that area.
Our service network is based on groundwork that is already in place, including the public health system that runs our home visit programs, and our early childhood education system that manages our day care network. The province is currently facing a shortage of nurses and early childhood educators. This phenomenon is even more apparent in the francophone community. Added to that is the fact that the francophone community is quite scattered throughout all regions of the province, which further complicates staffing issues.
If we truly want to reach our objective, namely equitable services, we need to make the transition from simply delivering early childhood services to a strategy that takes the aforementioned challenges into account.
To do this, it is absolutely essential that we rely on an ongoing and active partnership with the francophone community and, needless to say, the financial support of the federal government.
Manitoba has made early childhood one of its priorities, and the province has done this by adopting a unique approach designed to establish a link between early childhood development and lifelong learning.
Although we are very proud of what we have managed to accomplish up until now, it is clear that greater financial support from the federal government would enable us to do more.
To conclude, I would leave you with these words that may serve to inspire you: "If it can help children, it will help the entire world."
Hon. Gregory Selinger, Minister responsible for French Language Services: Ladies and gentlemen of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, it is a great pleasure for me to be with you today.
You have heard many presentations today and I do not want to repeat them all. I would simply like to draw your attention to a few highlights.
First of all, we have had policies to improve the quality of life of Franco-Manitobans and improve their opportunities to live in French since the time of Duff Roblin. And under the next premier, Mr. Schreyer, Mr. Roblin gave official status to French as a language of instruction under his government in 1970. This was when French schools began reappearing in Manitoba. Before that, 50 per cent of the schools were teaching in English and 50 per cent in French.
The Schreyer government set up the Bureau de l'éducation (Education Office), which is represented by Guy Roy. And you have probably heard the history of article 23 and the big quarrel that occurred during the 80s.
In a way we took a step back during that period but after that we tried to find a more practical way of expanding the services and making sure that francophones remained in Manitoba.
In the 90s, the Filmon government, under the pressure of the Supreme Court, set up the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine. That had to be done under clause 23 of the Charter of Rights. The necessary legislation was passed. It began to be recognized that the parents and the Franco-Manitoban community had to have control over their own schools.
When we came back to power we supported the Chartier report and the principle of that report. Our government had to make a special contribution to all Manitoba schools, not just a contribution but something more.
During the first year of our term, we negotiated an agreement with the federal government. I remember the details. The federal government decided to decrease its contribution and at the same time it asked us to add to the budget. A decrease in the federal government's contribution and an increased contribution on our part was not to the advantage of the Division scolaire franco-manitobaine.
So we renegotiated and I am quite proud to say that the federal government recognized that we were a new government and it decided to put more money on the table. The federal government contributed $15 million over five years. So we decided to put our own contribution on the table to seal the bargain. With that, we increased the contribution to the DSF.
I do not have the details here in front of me but I think that the contribution is something like $9,000 per student for those living in very remote areas and the average contribution, in Manitoba, is something like $6,500 per student.
Is it enough? That is a question to be considered later. We increased our contribution to the budget not only for operations but also for capital cost.
On the capital cost side we started with the Christine-L'espérance School in Saint-Vital, in the south of Winnipeg. We did not just build a school there. Inside the school we set up a day care centre with, for the first time, facilities for junior kindergarten and a babysitting service for school-aged children and preschoolers.
So we set up a centre for our community. It was 100 per cent funded by the provincial government but the amount was recognized by the federal government in our overall agreement. In the agreement, we said that we would make a capital contribution for the schools because the schools set aside for the Franco-Manitoban community were not the best. Actually, the anglophone community did not want those schools any more.
So we have to keep going on and find a way, through this agreement, to improve the schools and stabilize funding not just from the provincial government but also from the federal government. The same goes with the agreement for Collège de Saint-Boniface.
The college started with a $5-million contribution for the first year and it is down to only half a million now. It is hard to count on a stable contribution when you only have a half million dollars as a base. And I understand why the federal Finance Minister did that. There was a surplus during the first year of the agreement. He kept his flexibility for the future and all finance ministers that I know do the same thing.
However, from the community's point of view, we need something more stable and more certain for the future. It is harder now to negotiate another agreement with the federal government because the Heritage and Culture Minister must negotiate with Treasury Board but not just for the same $5 million amount. He is looking for another $4.5 million to have something stable for the future, in other words about $1.3 million each and every year.
In no way should the federal government be there for five years and then turn the responsibility over to the provinces because the provinces need a long-term partnership for funding their programs.
Why is that necessary? Some provinces are richer than others. It is a matter of politics. There are a lot of schools here, in Manitoba, that need capital investment. Many schools and many school divisions need more resources. It is hard to make the Franco-Manitoban community a priority without a partnership with the federal government simply because Franco-Manitobans represent 5 per cent of the population and the other 95 per cent is demanding the same thing and even more for their schools.
In a partnership with the federal government, we can put our demands to cabinet and Treasury Board. Fifty per cent of the funds come from the federal government and 50 per cent from the provincial government. It is not just a matter of principle. It is a matter of tactics in order to get a share of the available resources. As for the Laurier School, I spoke with Minister Stéphane Dion and the Minister of Education and we found a solution with the participation of the federal government. It was not really a matter of resources. It was a matter of finding a way to fund the project without bringing about a negative reaction from the majority.
And with the participation of the federal government, it is easier to avoid a negative reaction not only here in Manitoba but also in the other provinces.
I will repeat: financial partnerships must be sustainable. You mentioned the question of the participation of the Franco-Manitoban community in negotiating the agreements. In my opinion, that is a good thing but, at the end of the day, who has to answer the questions in the legislature or in Parliament? The elected representatives. And those elected representatives must have the final say because they are the politicians responsible in their own legislature or their own Parliament.
In my opinion, even with our representative political system, partnerships with school divisions and the college are possible. It is a matter of knowing how to go about it in our political system where politicians have to answer questions in their legislative assemblies. And it is also a matter of finding an effective and practical partnership.
As for immigrants and their access to French schools, immersion schools or English schools as well as the question of having their own bilingual programs in their own language and the language of another country, we want to be flexible. We have Ukranian programs in Manitoba. We have German programs. We also have Ojibway programs here, downtown. And the communities are trying to protect many other languages.
Can they protect their language and at the same time learn French and English? In my opinion, it is quite possible. Being bilingual is fine, but having three or even more languages is even more advantageous. In my opinion, we have to facilitate that in Manitoba.
That already exists and we must give all Manitobans the choice of participating in a French or English program or even a third bilingual or even trilingual program. We must be flexible and creative in order to facilitate that. Languages are an advantage for Canada and for the provinces also.
We are ready to answer your questions.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. You talked about accountability and answering in the House. In the last annual report tabled by the Commissioner of Official Languages, she said that the provinces should be accountable as concerns the Dion plan. Do you agree with that principle and would you be ready to do it?
Mr. Selinger: I read Ms. Dyane Adam's comments. I agree, in principle. If resources are increased, we must be held accountable.
Every year since we formed the government, we have tabled in the legislature a report on the improvement of services in French in Manitoba. It is the first time in our history that this has been done. So far, we have tabled three reports, I believe, and the fourth will be tabled in the spring.
It is not complicated. It is a tool that enables us to account for how we have used the resources and how we have worked together to reach our goals.
The Chairman: And it is useful for us too, when you have to give answers.
Mr. Selinger: Absolutely. I have no problem with that.
[English]
Senator Keon: Let me thank all of you for appearing before us. It is a major block of time to get four ministers appearing before a committee. I appreciate how busy all of you are.
Minister Selinger, you are responsible for providing the French-language services and I would like you to comment on your internal resources to do that. We have heard from the previous ministers the objectives of your educational programs and there is a segment of your population that can receive a French education from kindergarten all the way up to the Collège de Saint-Boniface. There is a segment of your population who will get French immersion and another group that will get some French-language education.
Do you think the output of these programs will provide you with the manpower to provide French-language services to your citizens?
Mr. Selinger: Are you asking whether our existing programs provide sufficient graduates to continue the programs in the future?
Senator Keon: No. I get the distinct impression that some francophones feel that in Manitoba they cannot always access as many services in French as they would like to because there are not enough people to go around with that capability.
If the programs described by the two previous witnesses are successful, do you think that problem is going to be solved?
Mr. Selinger: In terms of providing services in French in the health care sector, there is a shortfall of bilingual personnel. That is why we worked with the Collège Saint-Boniface to put the first-ever French nursing program in place.
We also need more French-speaking doctors. However, there has been some progress in that respect. We have expanded the number of spots in medical school by 15 in our first mandate and we have promised to expand it by another 15 in our second mandate. We have also set up an Office of Rural Health. Part of the procedure there is to place doctors in communities in the rural areas, including francophone communities, where they can learn to practice in the language of their choice.
In fact, the Family Practitioner of the Year Award was just given to a francophone doctor here, in Manitoba, a person of whom we are all very proud. He was a real pioneer in a sense by going to the community of Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes and making that the centre of his professional life for the last 15 years. He will bring other people out there and we will support that.
In respect of the general services in government, we have identified what we call "official positions" where people must speak both languages. As of our last report, we had improved the number of people with full bilingual capacity there. About 75 per cent of all our bilingual posts are filled with people that are functionally bilingual. As those people turnover or retire or move to other jobs we will up that.
I think we have enough qualified people in the community to fill those posts. However, the challenge is going to be in the areas of specialties, whether it is nursing, whether it is medicine, whether it is other allied health care professions where there is a specific requirement. We are going to have to work hard to make sure that they are not only competent professionally but also capable and competent in terms of their language capacity. We will have to pinpoint where we can do that.
For example, I know personally that we have a problem right now in attracting translators who can do legislation to the Province of Manitoba. There is a special skill required for legal translation.
I have not yet talked to Raymonde Gagné about this, but I am convinced that we should not have to recruit from Quebec or other parts of the country to fill those jobs. There should be a way to bring our programs in Manitoba to a level where they can meet all those tests they have to write and be qualified to do that job. I know we can do it. However, it is a question of first knowing that there is a problem and then finding a practical, on-the-ground solution to doing it.
We have been discussing this. Generally, there are some managers who believe this can be resolved by simply paying more money and outbidding the federal government for these people. We are not going to win that battle of outbidding them. We have to know that those jobs are available in Manitoba and then we have to focus our training on ensuring we can build those jobs. I am quite comfortable we can do that once we get enough people around the table to discuss it. We must recognize that the long-term solution is to train our own people to do the jobs and then to attract out-of-province translators for other reasons.
Senator Keon: Thank you very much for your very candid answer. I do not think anybody in the country has the answer to feed that loop. Everybody is making an effort to provide French-language services and then, with infrastructure, to provide a proper French-language education to provide the people, the services. However, I do not think anybody has the answer to the loop.
I was not expecting you or any of your colleagues to come up with a definitive answer, but I do thank you for trying.
Mr. Sale: Maybe I could give you a specific example of the loop that we are trying to close. We all agree on the importance of quality, early-childhood education. We have a shortage of francophone early-childhood educators. Le Collège universitaire de Saint-Boniface has developed an ECE program that we hope will address this shortage. Because we have the Collège and the early childhood commitment from DSFM and the francophone community, this little loop-closing exercise is under way.
Now, there are many other loops to close.
Senator Keon: Le Collège is a tremendous initiative.
Mr. Sale: Yes.
Senator Keon: Its accomplishments are tremendous. We heard about it already. They may well have the brainpower to look at an analysis of the loop.
Mr. Sale: Absolutely.
Mr. Selinger: One advantage of being a province of 1.2 million people, it is not that hard to talk to everybody. We all live within relative proximity to each other and we do not only get together when there are Senate committee hearings. There is the opportunity to discuss these things.
I recall that I discussed the nursing program with Ms. Gagné on a soccer field while our kids were playing soccer about four years ago.
I think there are ways to do these things and that includes the participation component. Formal structures do not necessarily get you the best results. It is often a matter of finding ways to communicate informally and stay in touch with each other and then to find a way to pinpoint resources to get the results we need.
The Chairman: That is true. As a finance minister, you have identified that there are other means than money.
Mr. Selinger: Yes.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Colleagues, at the request of our guest, we would like to have a short in-camera session. We would invite committee members to stay in the room — I think I mentioned this earlier — as well as ministers, interpreters and perhaps certain officials too.
The others are invited to go down to the reception room to get things started, and we will join you shortly.
The committee continued in camera.