Proceedings of the Committee on
Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament
Issue 1 - Evidence of October 29, 2002
OTTAWA, Tuesday, October 29, 2002
The Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament met this day at 9:35 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. Blair Armitage, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, pursuant to rule 88, it is my responsibility as Clerk of the Committee to preside over the election of the chair. Are there any nominations for the position of chair of this committee?
Senator Stratton: I have the distinct pleasure of nominating Senator Lorna Milne.
Mr. Armitage: Are there any other nominations to this position? I will put the question. Is it agreed, honourable senators, that Senator Milne take the chair?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Armitage: Senator Milne, would you please take the chair?
Senator Lorna Milne (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: This will be the first and last time that I ever get somebody clapping for me to take the chair.
Before we move on with our agenda and the usual motions, I would mention that those of you who have dealt with me in the past know that I do not make long speeches, and I intend to continue in that vein.
On behalf of the entire committee, and the past Rules Committee, I would pass on our thanks to Senator Austin who chaired this committee for the first part of the first session of this Parliament, and did an able job, as witnessed by the large package that you will be receiving.
I would also thank Senator Stratton, deputy chair in the first session and Gary O'Brien, the Clerk of the Committee. Perhaps when his business is less pressing, he will be the Clerk of this Committee again.
Do we have a motion for the election of a deputy chair?
Senator Wiebe: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to place before you the name of a bright young lady from the Province of Saskatchewan, Senator Raynell Andreychuk as deputy chair.
The Chairman: Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next we will deal with the steering committee.
Senator Bacon: I would move that motion.
The Chairman: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Bacon:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the Chair, the Deputy Chair and one other member of the committee to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I believe that Senator Smith will be the third member of our steering committee.
We now require have a motion to print the committee's proceedings.
Senator Losier-Cool: I so move.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We now need authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when quorum is not present.
Senator Rompkey: I so move.
The Chairman: Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I now require a motion in respect of item No. 6.
Senator Andreychuk: Madam Chair, I move:
That, pursuant to Rule 104, the Chair be authorized to report expenses incurred by the committee during the last session.
The Chairman: Is it agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: You have all received a copy of what will be our committee's first report. I must tell you, coming from the Legal Committee, that this was a very expensive committee. It is scandalous. The committee spent $15,138 during the first session.
Senator Stratton: Might I ask what the Legal Committee spent?
The Chairman: We spent about $6,000.
Are we agreed that I report this afternoon?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We need a research staff.
Senator Di Nino: I move:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research officers to the committee;
That Chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of such counsel and technical, clerical, and other personnel as may be necessary for the purpose of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject-matters of bills, and estimates as are referred to it;
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee; and
That the Chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Joyal: Madam Chair, I would move:
That, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee; and
That, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act, and Guideline 3:05 of Appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the Chair, the Deputy Chair, and the Clerk of the Committee.
The Chairman: Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Rompkey; Madam Chair, under travel, I move:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: We will now deal with the designation of members travelling on committee business.
Senator Stratton: I move:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
The Chairman: Are we agreed?
Senator Andreychuk: I would like clarification as to whether this rule would apply only within Canada or whether it would give authority to the committee to authorize someone to do the things that you have outlined outside of Canada. This has been raised with me in another context, and frankly, I was given the answer in one case that only the Senate can approve travel outside of Canada, not the committee. In another case, I was told the committee could do it. I think we need clarification of that.
The Chairman: I have been told by the clerk that this will depend on the approved budget of the committee, which is the way the Senate itself controls travel inside or outside of the country. I can say that I do not anticipate any travel outside of the country.
It might be appropriate if we amend the motion so that it would only authorize travel within Canada. It would then read:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on ``official business'' for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on ``official business'' if that member is: (a) attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee within Canada; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee within Canada.
Those two words would be added to both parts (a) and (b) of the second point. Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Next is the motion related to travelling and living expenses of witnesses.
Senator Wiebe: Madam Chair, I move:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witnesses' expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the Chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
The Chairman: I can assure you that, if there are exceptional circumstances, the committee will be informed of this before I authorize this expenditure.
Are we agreed on this?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item No. 12, relates to electronic media coverage of public meetings.
Senator Losier-Cool: I move:
That the Chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
The Chairman: Are we agreed?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The normal time slot for this committee is 9:30 to 11:30 on Tuesday morning and 12:00 to 1:30 p.m. on Wednesday. Since we already know that these times do not conflict with any other committees, I would suggest we stick with these regular times. It may well be, if we have pressure of business this fall, that we may now and then require a third meeting, but that will only be after consultation with the committee and the leadership on both sides to arrive at a suitable time.
Do we agree we should continue with the same meeting times?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: I would suggest that, under ``Other Business'' we should discuss future meetings and witness lists. We will be receiving, as we all know, the code of conduct and the legislation to appoint an ethics commissioner.
I suggest that we all think about the witnesses we might want to call on these two subjects. We will meet tomorrow at noon and have an in camera brainstorming session about witnesses from whom we might like to hear.
I would also like us to consider, perhaps, holding certainly not regular meetings, but one or two meetings with the corresponding committee of the House of Commons, not to hear witnesses who come from this area but, to hear from witnesses who come from across the country. To save money we might as well sit in with them. I would say only — and I want you to think about this overnight — on one condition, that is, that it be Senate committee rules rather than House of Commons committee rules under which we would meet jointly. It is something to think about. I suggest we have a meeting tomorrow at noon to discuss this matter further.
Is there any further business?
Senator Di Nino: We dealt with a number of reports during the last session which were not approved. Is it intended that we reintroduce those?
The Chairman: Frankly, I have not read my way through all the proceedings of the last session because it was such a busy one. I have asked the clerk to flag the matters that we should be moving on, and that may be something we will want to discuss tomorrow. A tremendous amount of work was done by the committee in the last session.
Senator Di Nino: Some specific items were highlighted in the first report, so we should certainly give our attention to those three. If you wish, Madam Chair, we will deal with that matter tomorrow.
The Chairman: If there is no further business, we will adjourn until twelve o'clock tomorrow.
The committee adjourned.