Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 6 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 14, 2003
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:20 p.m. to examine the health care provided to veterans of war and of peacekeeping missions; the implementation of the recommendations made in its previous reports on such matters; the terms of service, post- discharge benefits and health care of members of the regular and reserve forces as well as members of the RCMP and of civilians who have served in close support of uniformed peacekeepers; and all other related matters.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Today we are continuing our examination of the items listed in our mandate.
We are particularly honoured to have with us the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Mr. Pagtakhan, and I would thank him for taking time our of his busy schedule to appear before our committee today. Before calling upon the minister, who I understand has a statement and is accompanied by senior officials of his department, I should like to introduce the senators on this committee.
Senator Jack Wiebe, from Saskatchewan, is a former Lieutenant-Governor of that province and well versed in military matters, particularly matters pertaining to reservists. Senator Norman Atkins, from Ontario, has had direct military experience in his own career. He has served in the Senate for a number of years and has a particular interest in matters pertaining to the services. Senator Joe Day, from New Brunswick, acts as vice-chair of the committee and is a graduate of the Royal Military College in Kingston, Ontario. Senator Forrestall, from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, is not, strictly speaking, a member of the committee, but he has always taken a great interest in matters pertaining to veterans and attends many of our meetings. We are grateful to him for his expertise. Senator Colin Kenny is a long- serving senator who also chairs our parent committee, the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.
I will turn it over to the minister and reiterate my thanks to him for making the time to appear today. Please proceed with your opening statement, and also introduce your colleagues.
The Honourable Rey Pagtakhan, Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada: Honourable senators, I would start by saying how grateful I am for your kind invitation to appear before your committee. Indeed, I am honoured to update you on some of the measures my department is taking to fulfil Canada's promise to our veterans. Canada is a better nation because of what they have done for us in the service of their country and what we in turn have done for them as citizenry.
Before I proceed, perhaps I should introduce my officials. With me today are Mr. Jack Stagg, Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs, Mr. John Walker and Mr. Brian Ferguson of financial services.
In March last year, you will recall that my staff had the honour of welcoming you to our head office in Charlottetown. Regrettably, I was unable to attend that meeting, but I understand that your deliberations covered many important areas such as health care, long-term care and home care, pensions, and post-traumatic stress disorder.
Your insightful advice and specific input on how to best care for our veterans continues to be recognized within my department. Your 1999 report, ``Raising the Bar: Creating a New Standard in Veterans Health Care'' is the foundation of our residential care strategy which aims to meet the current and future long-term care needs of our aging veterans.
Our clientele is a big family. About two years ago, the definition of a veteran was expanded to include Canadian Forces members who have met occupational standards set by the Department of National Defence and who have been honourably discharged. To date, there are more than 700,000 Canadian veterans. As you well know, they must meet certain eligibility criteria in order to become our clients.
We believe that many have yet to approach us. Over the past while, we have witnessed a considerable increase in applications for disability pensions from older veterans whose health is becoming frailer, as well as from our younger individuals.
I would add that, a few months ago, our department also assumed full responsibility for administering disability pensions and treatment benefits on behalf of about 4,000 RCMP clients.
When you last met with my department, there was much meaningful discussion on the challenges that we face in caring for our aging war service veterans. Resolving this matter remains a pressing concern. We certainly have not lost sight of the concerns of our war service veterans and their caregivers. In fact, just this Monday, I announced in the house my intention to introduce legislation and make regulatory changes to address the most urgent needs of Canada's war veterans. The intended changes will reflect their top priorities as identified by the national veterans organizations and, I should add, by your committee.
They include, one, extending for life the veterans independence programs, grants, and maintenance and housekeeping services for qualified surviving spouses of deceased veterans; two, making it easier for veterans with a severe disability to get medical health care benefits; three, providing home care to veterans on institutional waiting lists; four, providing long-term care and health care benefits to Allied veterans with 10 years post-war residence in Canada; five, enhancing benefits for former prisoners of war, specifically for both shorter and longer periods of incarceration; six, clarifying in legislation that a member of the Canadian Forces must have enlisted to be eligible for benefits; and last, seven, establishing an education assistance program for dependent children of Canadian Forces members killed in the line of duty.
With that in mind, I should like to focus today on some of the progress that has been made to support the priorities of the newer members of our client family, namely the Canadian Forces and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Like our traditional war service veterans, a growing number of CF and RCMP clients are experiencing age-related concerns. At the other end of this spectrum, we support a considerable number of former and still-serving members who are raising young families. Our youngest clients are just beginning their adult lives. A few are barely old enough to be out of high school or college.
As you can appreciate, these individuals often have needs that are as unique as their fingerprints. As examples: One, those with physical disabilities may need care and support for a period of time, or a lifetime. Many can benefit from some form of rehabilitation. Two, some have witnessed terrible events that have sickened their heart and scarred their mind. Their recovery can best be achieved in a caring and non-threatening environment that encourages them to share their pain with people who are trained to help them. Finally, three, many of those who are released from the CF and RCMP need guidance and support to make the successful transition from uniform to civilian life.
Our approach to helping these people is very much client-driven. In the past, we called this approach a ``client- centered service approach.'' Now we have taken the best of that approach and are piloting something called the ``integrated service delivery framework.'' It will allow our staff to work together more efficiently and with greater coordination so that our services are delivered consistently across the country and every resource at our disposal is used to its maximum advantage.
I would like to stress that our efforts to support CF and RCMP clients continue to be greatly enhanced due to the excellent working partnerships we enjoy with the Department of National Defence and with the Solicitor General. We have accomplished many initiatives together in the past five years to address the needs of our CF and RCMP clients.
Today, I would limit, if I may, my remarks to several new and longer-term initiatives that reflect the themes being addressed by the Veterans Affairs Canada Canadian Forces Advisory Council.
The first concerns relate to VAC benefits and services. VAC provides disablility pensions and related health care to CF veterans and still serving members who are disabled as a result of service. We are working to improve consistency, equity and quality of pensions decisions and to effectively manage emerging types of disabilities.
Bill C-31, which I introduced last month, has now passed second reading in the House, and last week the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs gave it unanimous approval. I understand that it will be debated at third reading this afternoon.
I look forward to your favourable endorsement as it reaches your place for your further perusal. The bill will give more comprehensive pension and health coverage to Canadian Forces and RCMP members who are deployed in areas and operations at home and abroad where there is elevated risk. The amendments make it easier and faster for the government to declare a special duty area. In addition, a new type of service called a ``special duty operation'' would be created. Special duty operations are not limited to a specific geographic area, which makes them particularly relevant in this era of newer global challenges in terms of peace, safety and security.
As you may know, our federal health claims processing system is constructed with the Atlantic Blue Cross Care. It has significantly improved the processing of VAC treatment benefits. The system enables us to more effectively and efficiently administer benefits for the Canadian Forces and the RCMP.
As much as we have accomplished, there is much yet to do. With respect to demands to come, for example, my department and National Defence will be looking at ways to better harmonize our programs so that CF veterans receive a seamless level of care and support after they are released.
Over the longer term, the key priority will be to redesign and modernize my department's benefits and services so they better reflect the needs and expectation of today's Canadian Forces veterans and their families.
Transition services are another concern of CF members and veterans. You may be aware of a four-point joint VAC- DND strategy that the Minister of National Defence and I announced last summer to improve access to assessment and treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder and other operational stress injuries. The strategy includes a network of assessment and treatment clinics, including St. Anne's Centre, a continuing education program for health professionals who want to specialize in this critical area, research and education fora.
Two weeks ago, we hosted such a forum in Montreal, where frontline professionals and practitioners had the opportunity to share ideas with military and civilian experts from around the world.
In addition, we are partnering with DND in a peer-support network to increase the level of social support available to CF members and veterans suffering from operational stress injuries.
I should inform you that I had the privilege of meeting a few weeks ago with my U.S. counterpart in Washington, Secretary Anthony Principi. It was a very productive meeting. We have agreed to explore joint opportunities that will help us advance our knowledge of how best to help military members with PTSD who are making the transition to civilian life.
At the end of last month, I announced that we would be providing Canadian Forces members with on-site access to my department's services and programs. We have begun to offer improved transition services through client service teams at 17 key CF locations across the country.
CF members can come in and talk to us any time during their career, and especially during transition into civilian life. In June, these teams also will begin conducting transition interviews with medically releasing personnel to determine where and how VAC can help.
On another front, we are moving ahead quickly on a new initiative that will give us the capacity to meet the rehabilitation needs of our CF population and their families. This initiative will include research, improving access to community resources, client information and staff training, and establishing networks of specialized service providers. The VAC-CF advisory council is also providing my department with advice on family and well-being issues.
VAC recognizes that former and still serving members of the CF and other families have increasingly required counselling to assist them through personal difficulties. In 2001, VAC established a nationwide service that provides professional counselling services to CF veterans and their families.
Initial client contact is made by bilingual toll-free line, operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Subsequent consultations are carried out face-to-face, in or near the client's community. In addition, VAC continues to work in conjunction with DND and the Canadian Forces on a wide range of joint service improvement activities. Their aim is to ensure that all CF members and their families receive the highest degree of support and assistance from VAC's programs in all stages of transition from military to civilian life.
Some key initiatives include the DND-VAC Centre for the Support of Injured and Retired Members and their Families, and the Operational Stress Injury Social Support Project, of which the peer support network is a part.
The VAC-CFAC advisory council also identified communications and culture as a priority. VAC works closely with DND to communicate key quality of life initiatives. Opportunity for joint communications are identified and facilitated through a VAC-DND communications working group. In conjunction with DND, VAC has started delivering pre- and post-deployment briefings to CF members posted overseas.
Senior non-commissioned officers and officers at bases across the country are also briefed on VAC's benefits and services. We also increased our employees' awareness of the CF cultural experience through videos, familiarization visits and engagement in military demonstrations.
Finally, in terms of communication, we have been hard at work to find ways to reach out to the service, many of whom may not be aware of how they can access my department's programs and services.
The final concern identified by VAC-CFAC advisory council on behalf of CF members and veterans is research. VAC has recently created a research directory that liaises with other countries and monitors international developments relative to post-deployment illnesses. Some key initiatives include the following: one, developing the research component of the mental health clinic network in collaboration with St. Anne's hospital; two, an ongoing study of noise induced-learning loss in the Canadian Forces co-sponsored with DND; three, further studies on PTSD, chronic pain and career employment issues of regular force members using the regular force data set; four, research into Gulf War health.
In closing, will Mr. Chairman, I want to bring you back to the inevitable redesign and modernization of my department's benefits and services to better reflect the needs and expectations of today's Canadian Forces veterans and their families. In many respects, this work will be an evolution of the Veterans Charter, which was introduced by the government during the Second World War to help Canada's military make the transition back into civilian life. That charter promised to provide ``opportunity with security.''
There is no question that it did, but much has changed in Canada over the past 60 years. Now our country has a strong social safety net. Now our military is comprised of professional soldiers. In fact, many have spent the better part of their adult lives in uniform. For them, military life in the service of country is the only life they have ever known. Needless to say, the original Veterans Charter was never designed to meet the needs of a 21st century professional.
Applying band-aid measures to meet these newer needs does them and our nation a great disservice. For that reason, I have instructed my staff to work with the Veterans Affairs Canada Canadian Advisory Forces Council to explore how the Veterans Charter can be updated and modernized to better reflect today's realities and the needs of CF veterans and their families. To achieve our vision, we will need your committee's ongoing guidance and the support of cabinet. We will also need to engage Canadians on many fronts to help them understand the needs of those in uniform who serve our country. It will be a long and perhaps challenging journey, but it is always the right time to do the right thing.
As a servant of the people, I know in my heart that every client has the right to live with dignity and independence. I know they have the right to benefit from quality programs and services that are delivered consistently across the country by trained professionals who care about them as much as we do. This is the honourable way to say ``thank you'' to those who have helped to shape the history that we read about. It is the only way to give care and support to those who often work under hostile and dangerous conditions to secure the freedoms we enjoy and the values as a nation we hold so dear.
The Chairman: I know that the many items you have raised in your comments will give rise to a number of questions, so if you would be good enough to stay with us for a while, I am sure the senators would like to enter into a dialogue with you.
Senator Wiebe: I must say that I very much appreciated your remarks. Today I have a bit of a conflict in that I am scheduled to attend two committee meetings. I would thank our chairman for allowing me to ask a question first.
Coming from Western Canada, many of my concerns would relate to the care of veterans who reside in the western provinces. Two of the areas of concern are Calgary and Edmonton. We have the Colonel Belcher Care Centre for veterans in Calgary. One of the recommendations, number 12, in ``Raising the Bar,'' was that the minister intervene with other ministers and achieve some progress. I understand that is going well. Could you give us an update on that?
As well, perhaps one of your staff could fill me in on what is happening in Edmonton. I understand the premises there were sublet and the lease will not be renewed when it expires. Can you give us the department's view about what will happen to the patients there?
Mr. Pagtakhan: I would like to comment on the Colonel Belcher Care Centre. I visited the old facility before patients had been moved successfully to the new one. At that time, I took the opportunity to speak with five or six of them.
I asked a veteran, who was in the lounge, ``How do you feel, sir?'' He responded, ``Good, until you came.'' Fortunately, Mr. Chairman, I saw his wink. I then asked another veteran, ``Do you have any problems?'' He said, ``I have no problems, but my neighbour is worried about the food.'' I asked another: ``Would you recommend military service to your son or daughter?'' The response was, ``No.'' I asked his why, and he told me, ``They do a lot of drinking.'' I then spoke with a woman, who told me, ``I have difficulty with my language,'' and of course immediately I responded, ``Don't worry, we can all speak the universal language of the heart.''
I share these anecdotes with you of actual life experience because I see in that the continuing concerns of veterans, who have served our country and have never asked the country for very much, in that they continue to speak out for others.
I am looking forward to the opening of the new Colonel Belcher facility. There is a lot of excitement about that. It will officially open on June 3.
I would ask Mr. Walker to respond to your question about Edmonton.
Mr. John Walker, Director, Residential Care Directorate, Department of Veterans Affairs: The facility in Edmonton will follow a similar process to that followed with the Colonel Belcher Care Centre. A new facility will open in Edmonton in the reasonably near future. We are still in negotiations, but Veterans Affairs will be contributing in the area of $1.25 million to $1.35 million a year for a period of 10 years to assist them with special programming and with some things we have asked to be included in the new facility. Those are two success stories.
Senator Wiebe: PTSD and stress disorders generally have certainly been a concern of mine, and I have raised those issues whenever I could. In your remarks, you mentioned that there will be 17 locations where the individual will have on-site access to assistance. Are 17 sites enough? As well, there is some resistance from serving members of the Canadian Forces to seek out help for fear that their comrades may look differently upon them if they do. Will that be a concern by having these clinics on site?
Mr. Pagtakhan: The 17 sites that I referred to are not the actual sites for this network of excellence for the PTSD clinics. I wanted to clarify that. In fact, we are looking at five major clinics across the country: Val Cartier, St. Anne's, London, Winnipeg and Victoria. We have the five critical clinics which form the network of excellence for PTSD. The 17 sites I referred are the continuing, ongoing sites they can access for any problem and, hopefully, even before PTSD is diagnosed.
Your observation that there could be resistance on the part of some of the members of the forces to seek help in a place that is within the base and therefore can be seen by their comrades and cause a stigma to be attached to these members, is a real health issue. It was raised with me by a member of the forces who was providing care for a group of patients in Winnipeg.
Having discussed this with the Minister of National Defence, we are looking at how best to provide assessment and treatment with no barriers. If need be, changes have to be made, but before making the changes, we have to see that, by cooperating collaboratively with them, hopefully it will not create a stigma or a perception of a stigma so that a member of the forces will feel free to seek counselling and treatment for this very serious psychological condition.
Senator Atkins: Mr. Minister, you made a very detailed presentation that is very encouraging. I know the department is doing an excellent job. As I said to one of your colleagues before you arrived, even though the numbers go down slightly on a regular basis, the importance of Veterans Affairs goes up because of the critical issues you face.
I note that you have extended the allowance under the Veterans Independence Program for caregivers. Could you expand on that?
Mr. Pagtakhan: To begin with, extending the maintenance services for life for spouses of veterans would be mostly to widows, with a few widowers. It is appropriate for the government to do this to demonstrate to the veterans and their families that we truly acknowledge the valuable service that spousal caregivers provided to their husband or wife veteran before their passing.
When I announced my intention in the House several days ago, there was a tremendous reception to this particular idea, indicating that there is universal agreement that this is the right thing to do.
I would ask one of my officials to elaborate.
Mr. Brian Ferguson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs: Mr. Minister, you have covered the major points. The spouses of veterans who die and who were receiving veteran's benefits, will continue to have those benefits for life.
Senator Atkins: Is there a grandfather clause?
Mr. Ferguson: There is no grandfather clause on that.
Senator Atkins: That is really good news.
Mr. Jack Stagg, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs: This was the first priority of veterans' associations. They were supportive of our finding a way to do this, and very supportive when the minister made the announcement on Monday.
Senator Atkins: I have had the privilege, minister, over the years to go on a number of pilgrimages. Veterans Affairs included young people as part of those pilgrimages. I was impressed by how naive these students were before they connected with veterans on these trips.
Have you thought about offering a program to students, which would include videos or some communication mechanism, telling the story of what veterans and Veterans Affairs are doing in this country?
Mr. Pagtakhan: Some major veterans' organizations make videos available. My officials will comment on whether we are doing an active reach-out to high schools. That is an excellent suggestion.
I took students last year to the celebration at Vimy. I spoke with them beforehand and afterwards. There was, indeed, a change of' appreciation and an increase in their knowledge.
I gained one insight from them. All of the students asked why we went to war? They were always speaking about peace, as we would expect from the youth of our country and we should expect from all our citizenry. I told them that we were celebrating anniversaries of battles and wars, but that it has greater meaning to celebrate the end of war. The Korean armistice celebrates the end of that war.
I was clear with them that, when we celebrate such events, we are celebrating heroism and heritage. We are committed to celebrating these events to pass on the message that the soldiers offered their lives in the service of peace and freedom.
Mr. Ferguson: In terms of the pilgrimages occurring, there is feedback via the Web site into the department. When people are on pilgrimages and participating in other events, those events are telecast on our site. Students across the country are encouraged to access the site. We can build on that to extend involvement.
There has been a serious attempt to link events outside Canada to events inside Canada — events surrounding major commemorative activities. The department sends educational material to schools across the country during Veterans' Week to encourage children to become part of events that increase their knowledge of our history. There is room to enhance such activities. We will consider any suggestions that are made.
Senator Atkins: The Forum of Young Canadians is one place to start. Encounters With Canada is another setting to use. You could play a part in their program. If you had the right kind of video, you could distribute it to the high schools.
I was at the launch of your most recent poster, which was well received. It is concentrated on the Hill. How do you get beyond that? I think that you are doing excellent work and more people should know about it.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I will make a pledge to you. I am sure that my officials will support me. I will bring this issue to the leadership of the Forum of Young Canadians and Encounters With Canada in the hope that this coming year's programs will include some items regarding veterans.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a correction. The other PTDS centre is in Calgary, not Victoria.
Further to the suggestion Senator Atkins, I met recently one of my constituents who is a music teacher. I will explore the possibility of using some military hymns as a way of spreading knowledge of our veterans.
Senator Kenny: Retired Senator Jacques Hebert is meeting upstairs as we speak with a group from Katimavik. You may also be interested in speaking with that group.
Mr. Pagtakhan: Thank you, Senator Kenny, for that suggestion.
Senator Day: I can assure you, gentlemen, that this committee is supportive and very impressed by the work your department is doing. We had a chance to visit the St. Anne's Centre recently. We very much appreciate having had the opportunity to see the good work you are doing. Regrettably, I was unable to attend the conference, but I look forward to reading the results of the deliberations at that meeting.
I would like to start my question by reiterating the minister's words. ``I know in my heart that every client has the right to live with dignity and independence.'' Your clients are the veterans. Under the broader definition, that also includes some members of the Armed Forces still serving who are nearing retirement.
I hope and trust that you are familiar with the report of this committee released a few weeks ago entitled, ``Fixing the Canadian Forces' Method of Dealing with Death or Dismemberment.'' In that report, we quote at length one of the retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces, Major Bruce Henwood, who lost both legs below the knee while he was serving in the Balkans. His vehicle struck an anti-tank mine. I will not go over the entire range of difficulties that Major Henwood had, but I wish to direct my questions to two points and two recommendations that we made.
The Minister of National Defence rectified the situation as recommended in our report, which was that members of the Armed Forces who suffer dismemberment during duty should receive a lump sum payment similar to the lump sum payment available to colonels and generals for many years. The lower ranks were not entitled to that payment, although they thought that they were because they were required to pay into the program. The minister recognized the inequity and rectified it from the time of the announcement forward.
However, there remains a period of time that has not been covered, from 1982 until the time of the announcement this spring. Even though the lower ranks were paying into the program, they were not entitled to a lump sum payment for dismemberment. It was based on income, the income they received by virtue of your programs, and that resulted in their not being entitled to receive compensation from an insurance program that they were required to pay into.
Is there some way you could help the Minister of National Defence, as he has indicated an interest and willingness, to look into that retroactivity from 1982 forward to clear up this inequity? Could you look into that and get this cleared up?
Mr. Pagtakhan: We have been apprised of this issue. We have begun discussions with my officials. We have not forthrightly come to a conclusion, as yet. However, in response, I would assure you that I would do everything possible to assist veterans to achieve a resolution to this issue, to the satisfaction of all.
In my presentation, I alluded to the fact that we would like to harmonize benefits and services with DND. That was in part triggered by this issue that has confronted our nation. I will be in continuing communication with the Minister of National Defence. I am sympathetic to the issue that you have raised and I would like to have a better understanding the whole file before I give my final commitment on whether we will make it. As you may be aware, there are many potential complications but the records will show that the department has undertaken some innovative, bold and creative approaches in recent months to help resolve long-standing grievances. My only strength is persuasion, and I use that on my colleague at the Department of National Defence.
Senator Day: If there is anything that we can do as a committee further to our report, to help you in your persuasive powers, we would pleased. Do not hesitate to call on us.
The other question I have relates to the same report. You have told us that you are doing this, but I would like clarification in respect of those members of the Armed Forces who have been injured and need some help and support to access various programs that might be available to them. They and their families are stressed and we felt that they were not in a position to deal with the existing bureaucracy to make application or to determine whether they may be eligible for another program. We recommended that the Armed Forces provide someone to help the family and the injured member of the Armed Forces. Has that recommendation been met by what you are describing as providing support to serving members and to recently retired members?
Mr. Pagtakhan: In fact, yes, the challenge will be met by our approach to having a toll-free line 24 hours per day, seven days per week and by having a peer support counselling approach in the 17 sites that we have established across the country. Following the call, there will be a face-to-face medical interview. I am confident that this would address the challenges, dilemmas, needs and concerns of family members and veterans. We will continue to listen for more innovative approaches that your committee may want to advise us on following your deliberations.
Senator Day: A specific example would be the family of Major Henwood, while he was in the hospital. He was still in the Armed Forces. He had not been told whether he would be leaving, although everyone knew he would not be able to serve again. His wife did not have access to funds for babysitting services or for taxis so that she could visit him in the hospital. That kind of immediate support, which is needed at that early stage, was not available. Could Veterans Affairs help with that or does the individual have to stay with the Armed Forces requirements until he is told that he is leaving?
Mr. Ferguson: There are two aspects to the answer and one is building on what the minister said earlier. Within the existing programs and benefits that the Veterans Affairs mandate can bring to bear, we are enhancing those by having on-site staff at the 17 bases to begin the process of helping people through the transition. If they need help, and they usually do, then we try to connect them so that they can prepare their applications for help and pensions from the department; or we may connect them to a community support area under the broader social safety net in Canada that they can utilize.
We are addressing the program benefits that we can bring to bear on two fronts, but we have not truly addressed that. We do not necessarily have the package of program benefits essential to meet these kinds of needs today. Therefore, we are looking at harmonizing. We are carrying out a study to harmonize the interface between the insurance program at National Defence and our own disability program, to minimize the difficulties. Perhaps, by working together, we can better meet the needs that you identified. We are also looking at the broader future of benefits in the modern world and what current needs should be met.
The short answer to the second part is that we do not necessarily have the tools to address those issues now. If we had them, we would apply them. We do our best to do as much as we are able to do within our mandate. We are considering a study to see how we can harmonize things better.
Senator Day: I encourage you to do that. When an Armed Forces person is injured physically, mentally or emotionally, we encourage you to take the initiative to engage that person rather than to wait for the person or family to call the 1-800 number. See how you can work it. We do not want them to fall between the responsibility of National Defence and Veterans Affairs.
Mr. Ferguson: The perspective of our philosophy is exactly that. We are dedicated to making that happen.
Mr. Pagtakhan: From your question, Senator Day, I understand that you wonder how effective we have been, as a department, in conveying the available tools that we have today to the members of the Armed Forces. We would address by increasing our effectiveness in informing the members of the forces today, those who have no problem as yet, to address some future concerns. As you can imagine, people do not know of the available tools until such time as they need them. We must ensure that we are able to address that component of need.
The Chairman: I will ask a few questions, perhaps by way of a wrap-up. Anecdotal evidence indicates that, perhaps, reservists are more subject to operational stress injuries.
Is your department undertaking any special programs to deal with the situation to reach out to reservists, perhaps before they go abroad, to help prepare them for what they will face, given the fact they are not full-time members of the forces?
Mr. Ferguson: You have highlighted a significant programmatic issue for us, Mr. Chairman, in that communications with the reservists is a more difficult challenge than with the regular force because they are located in different areas across the country and their hours of engagement are different. However, we have begun work and we are making progress on a comprehensive strategy to reach out to reservists. That is now underway.
We have been consulting with the reservists themselves. In fact, we have a senior member of the reserves on the Canadian Forces Advisory Council that the minister mentioned earlier. I have written to the four reserve commanders across the country to suggest means and ways to collaborate specifically with them to find out better ways to communicate with reservists, and they are enthusiastic about engaging with us on that front.
We have a process underway. I would think that, within a few weeks, a couple of months, we would probably have a strategy that is in reasonable shape.
Mr. Pagtakhan: We may want to use our existing communication tools, some of the magazines that we have, to put the members of the reservists on our mailing list, if we have not already done that.
The Chairman: This question is not prompted by anything other than anecdotal evidence that we have heard primarily as members of the parent Committee on National Security and Defence. We have all heard innumerable stories about the administrative difficulties encountered between reservists and regulars in going from one force to the other. A pilot who left the air force went into civilian life as a civilian pilot wanted, for whatever reason, to come back to the forces. After six months they could not find his records. There are many other examples of situations like that.
Do you face challenges within the department in terms of modernization of record keeping so that you have the ability to source information quickly and efficiently? I know that no one has enough money to do everything they want to do, but is this is a serious monetary problem or one you have managed to escape through being more prescient perhaps than other departments?
Mr. Ferguson: It is an issue that we have been working hard at with the cooperation of the Department of National Defence. We have made significant improvements. Getting access to records is the big issue. When the individual who puts an application in comes forward to us, it is important that we get their service records and all of their medical records. To this end we have put additional resources to work at all of the bases. Just retrieving the records and photocopying them is a physical activity, so we have added resources as part of our enhanced transition services, and that is paying dividends.
We are also looking at the use of technology. The use of scanning technology in particular will be of great assistance to us. That looks promising but, of course, there is a cost to it, and we have to figure out where best to apply resources. That is on our radar screen as a high priority item, that is, to try to have better access to records.
I am not familiar with the interplay regarding the transfer of records between reservists and the military as members move back and forth. Obviously, that is not within the purview of Veterans Affairs.
The Chairman: I used that just by way of example.
Mr. Ferguson: It is a good example.
Mr. Chairman: That brings me back to Major Henwood and his case, because I think it fair to say that, from the Minister of National Defence on down, indeed including yourself, sir, everyone is sympathetic to Major Henwood's situation. He, along with others since 1982, because of dismemberment, was let go from the Canadian Forces and did not receive any lump sum payment. The evidence that came before our parent committee was to the effect that you are not dealing with more than 12 or slightly more cases. Nonetheless, the search for these records was not an easy task.
The industry experts in the area of pensions and annuities told us that a lump sum payment for dismemberment is not a particularly expensive item. Given what the minister said earlier about quite properly not wanting to make decisions, even though he is sympathetic, until he has all the facts, can you tell us anything about the search for the records of those who since 1982 were dismembered and let go from the forces?
Mr. Stagg: As Mr. Ferguson has said, electronic retrieval of files is a real priority in our department. We want to be able to have an efficient database before we go ahead rather than repeating some of the experiences I have seen both within and outside government where you take two or three attempts at it and spend a lot time and extra money getting it right. We want to make sure that we do it right, so we will spend the time to think it through first.
In the interim, many of our searches are hand searches through specific files. We are trying to be as thorough as we possibly can in not missing anyone, and we are taking special care to go through back files, as you say, from 1982 on. We have not completed that process yet, but we do have three or four people working on this pretty much full time so that we can get the information as quickly as possible and feed that information to where it should go. However, it is a challenge, Mr. Chairman, to do this.
We have a shorter-term problem that we are trying to solve by hand. We have a longer-term challenge to correctly establish a database so that files are easily retrievable, especially for pension requests, et cetera.
The Chairman: We have a keen interest in this matter and we will be following it closely. As Senator Day said earlier, if we can be of any assistance in any way, shape or form we will be glad to assist.
Senator Kenny: Minister, this is an issue that we think has hung around too long. It is good that the deputy minister wants to put in place a program so that future searches will happen. That is a separate issue.
The issue we want to focus on is how we can find these people, and we want to know how quickly you can get to them. Have you looked at putting ads in journals that these individuals might read? Have you thought about going through organizations like the Canadian Legion and utilizing their system? These people must have friends; there must be someone who knows them; there must be ways for them to be brought to the surface without this dragging on any longer.
Our view is that this small group of people — we do not know their names, we do not know quite how many there are — have not been treated properly, and there is an injustice to correct. We are sure you want to correct it just as much as we do, but we do not think you should be relying on a hand search by a number of officials. We think that you should go out and say, ``Hey, we're looking for you. Come and tell us that you are out there.'' We think that that could be accomplished, perhaps it would be more cost-effective, in fact, to buy some ads and encourage people to come forward, rather than to paying people to search for hours and hours for their files.
We would like some reassurance that it is more than just a bureaucratic process you are going through. We do not want to have any more hearings on this, and you do not want to attend more hearings on this. We know the Minister of Defence does not want that. We would just like to have it resolved, and we would like more assurance than we have heard so far today.
Mr. Pagtakhan: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I take those specific suggestions seriously as potential avenues when we come to making particular decisions. There are many faces to this issue, as I alluded to earlier, but I am glad you raised these specific proposals as avenues of communication once the decision has been made on some preliminary data so we can ensure that, we reach those who have not been reached by this review.
Along the lines of this approach, I would mention one recent example: When we looked at the circumstances of Colonel Trotter in dealing with the prisoner of war issue that had been in the media — there were three, maximum, such cases — the department collectively took the position that to stop at those cases was not the right thing to do. We granted an ex gratia payment to him and the other two, and we decided that those of similar circumstances would receive the same compensation. In fact, we identified those by hand search. In this instance, the records were found.
When we have arrived at the decision to pursue this along the line that Senator Kenny is suggesting, we will explore all avenues. I will take that your advice to be very meaningful proposals.
Senator Kenny: I am disturbed by your answer, minister, because I am hearing the words, ``When we have arrived at the decision.'' I assumed you had arrived at the decision.
I assumed that the Minister of Defence, when he came before us, had arrived at the decision that he was going to find these people and find a way to do justice. If you are telling us that this government has not arrived at that decision yet, then you are behind the ball. There is a problem, and it is a serious problem.
Mr. Pagtakhan: Mr. Chairman, my answer is premised on the fact that I cannot speak for the Minister of National Defence. Therefore, I would defer to him in making the determination. At the same time, I feel I should relate to you my own thinking on this. It is better for me to be forthright with you than to do otherwise, because no decision to my knowledge has been made. I cannot articulate a decision that may only properly be a decision to be announced by the Minister of National Defence.
The Chairman: Can we agree that the records of the people since 1982 who were dismembered and let go are very likely with your department? That is where they are. Therefore, it is your responsibility.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I see what you mean now.
Mr. Ferguson: On that front, there is no question. We will find the records; we have the records and there are no reasons why we should not find them. We were discussing the mechanism by which we retrieved those records. It was done by a hand analysis of the records because we had not coded them in the past.
We will learn from any future computer system. We will be able to find those people without having to do that kind of search. However, the search itself is progressing successfully, although slower than it would if you had a computer system that had foreseen this requirement.
The Chairman: Will it be concluded within weeks rather than months?
Mr. Ferguson: I think it is fair to say that. If I am incorrect, I will keep you abreast of that.
Senator Day: Can you give us any projection on how many names you think may be in that group — from now going back to 1982?
Mr. Ferguson: I would not feel comfortable in doing that this stage. I do not have the number in front of me because the assessment has not been concluded.
Senator Day: The best number we have received so far is 12 to 15 individuals. Are we way off base on that?
Mr. Ferguson: I do not think you are way off base, senator. I will let you know. I hesitate to put a number on the table until we have done the research.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I just have to be very careful not to transgress my ministerial geography.
The Chairman: Do not worry if you do. It has been done before.
Mr. Stagg: If there are other ways that we can find these people, then there is no reluctance on our part to use other methods. Your suggestions sound like good ones, and perhaps there are other ways as well in which we can track people down. It is not that we are reluctant to take advice or suggestions.
The Chairman: I will abuse my role as chairman to ask one final question that has to do with the review of rules of eligibility for veterans for priority beds. Are you looking at introducing some flexibility there? I know you refer to the case of spouses of disabled veterans. What about Canada-only veterans?
Mr. Pagtakhan: One of the initiatives that we announced would allow some flexibility, as I have understood it.
Mr. Ferguson: That particular announcement allows for Allied veterans with 10 years post-war residency to qualify for long-term care in certain instances. The Canada service veterans have a different set of qualifications. Obviously, if they are injured, as pensioners they have certain qualifications.
Mr. Walker: We do now have some flexibility. If they are indeed ineligible Canada service veterans, they are eligible for a bed in a community facility. They are not eligible for one of the ``priority access beds'' that are reserved for veterans; but if they need the care and meet the income requirements for a Canada service veteran, they can be placed in the community facility closest to where they reside. They would have to pay $755.12 a month roughly. We have some flexibility is there now.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I would also like Mr. Walker to relate, in light of this new announcement, the extending of more health care benefits for those with disabilities. Would you elaborate on that?
Mr. Walker: As the minister indicated, we will remove the necessity for pensioners between 47 per cent and 78 per cent to relate their admission in the facility to their pension condition. They will be able to receive a bed without the need to relate their admission to the facility to their pension condition. That is a significant step forward.
The Chairman: We are out of time. However, Senator Forrestall will make a concluding remark.
Senator Forrestall: I want to thank the minister for a kind invitation to go to Korea later this summer. That war, or course, happened in my generation. I want to come to this question because I have been incensed about this for years. Can we amend the definition of ``veteran'' to give consideration to those who we send in harms way outside of the traditional geographical theatres where qualification was automatic?
I think of the Cuban missile crisis. We sent half the Canadian fleet out — albeit a day late — into harms way. These people are not veterans. One of them, in particular, in his entire career, rose to a ``one star.'' He was not granted his last plea before he lost command of his faculties, which was that he be placed among his colleagues — veterans — and not have to be placed in a nursing home in his community.
I am grateful to Admiral Murray and a lot of people, going back 25 or 35 years, but why can we not solve this question? When we send men and women into harms way, are they not veterans because someone did not shoot at them?
The Chairman: Perhaps I can ask the minister to respond in writing. We are out of time. I will be in deep trouble if we do not conclude our meeting before the Senate sits. Thank you for appearing, minister.
The committee adjourned.