Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 9 - Evidence - Wednesday, October 22, 2003
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 22, 2003
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12 p.m. to study on veterans services and benefits commemorative activities and veterans charter.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I call to order this meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs. We are studying veterans' services and benefits, together with commemorative activities for veterans and the possible updating of the Veterans' Charter.
Today, we are fortunate to have as a witness the Dominion Secretary of the Royal Canadian Legion, Mr. Duane Daly.
Mr. Duane Daly, Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion: Honourable senators, it is a pleasure to be here. I bring the compliments of our Dominion President, Mr. Allan Parks, who unfortunately cannot be with us today.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss various initiatives that we have been exploring with the Department of Veterans Affairs with regard to commemorating the sacrifices of veterans in Canada to date and in the future. The documents we provided to you in advance describe our proposed initiatives.
I will explain how we came up with these initiatives. As you are aware, as the number of war veterans who served in World War I, World War II and Korea decline, the promotion of remembrance through effective commemorative initiatives becomes increasingly important. The issue is further complicated by the fact that the Canadian education system is severely fragmented between the provinces and there is no single, comprehensive Canadian history course of study emphasized at the elementary and secondary school levels. Our children and young Canadians are woefully ignorant of our history and the significant role that the military and military events have played in shaping it. The Canadian government has historically not played a leading role in helping to educate Canadians about our country's past or in promoting a Canadian identity.
Therefore, for a number of years, the Royal Canadian Legion has urged Veterans Affairs Canada to take on a more substantive role in promoting remembrance as a priority of equal importance to providing medical and financial support to our veterans. The successful implementation of the Canada Remembers program in 1995 was an excellent example of the leadership that the department could take in this regard. As such, the Legion argues that a Canada Remembers division should be implemented as a permanent entity within the department. We were extremely pleased that action was finally taken in this regard, but we do regret that it has never been fully funded to develop and implement a comprehensive commemorative program.
Irrespective of VAC's involvement with remembrance, the Legion considers itself the principal guardian of remembrance in Canada and will continue to promote and sponsor those programs that contribute to commemorating the sacrifice of our veterans. Our national remembrance ceremony, the conduct of local remembrance ceremonies across the country, the continuation of our annual poppy campaign, our Pilgrimage of Remembrance and Legion projects such as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the Two Minute Wave of Silence are such endeavours. Nevertheless, it is absolutely critical that VAC enhance the scope and operation of its Canada Remembers division to participate more fully in the promotion of remembrance in Canada.
Therefore, we proposed a number of initiatives to the department. First and foremost was the maintenance of cenotaphs and memorials. There are thousands of memorials to our veterans across the nation. Regrettably, many of these have not been maintained by local communities to a presentable standard. The Royal Canadian Legion is investigating options for how it could play a more substantive role in this area in collaboration with local municipal officials. However, the Government of Canada should also be involved in this objective. Specifically, the Legion has suggested that Veterans Affairs Canada should identify a number of cenotaphs and monuments across the country that could be considered of national significance. The cost of maintaining these major monuments should be borne entirely by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
As a rough estimate, the Legion anticipates that there should be no more than 30 such monuments across the country. Maintenance of these memorials would complement the efforts of VAC to maintain our foreign monuments, such as those at Vimy and Beaumont-Hamel.
The second item that we presented to Veterans Affairs Canada relates to youth and our youth leaders' pilgrimage. Passing the torch of remembrance to young Canadians is a critical component of the Legion's remembrance program. One such activity is the youth leaders' Pilgrimage of Remembrance. Every two years, ten selected youth leaders — either teachers, cadet instructors or Scout leaders — from across the ten provincial commands of the Legion are sponsored to participate in a guided pilgrimage to the major European battle sites of World War I and World War II. The Legion has suggested to Veterans Affairs Canada that it might wish to consider sponsoring ten young Canadians to participate in this pilgrimage.
Each year, over 65,000 young Canadians take part in the Legion's annual remembrance literary and poster contest. The four senior winners are brought to Ottawa to participate in the national remembrance ceremony and other events, but it has been suggested that VAC should consider sponsoring these four, among others, to participate in a combined youth and youth leaders' pilgrimage. The cost would be shared between the department and the Legion.
I have left you copies of documents related to some of our various programs; for example, the poster and essay contest and the teachers' guide that we are producing.
In terms of wreath presentations, the Legion fully supports the department's current initiative to make wreaths available to all senators and members of Parliament so that they can fully participate in November 11 ceremonies across the nation. This has been a very positive initiative, but I understand that there have been some problems in implementing the program and I would be prepared to discuss that after our presentation.
The next point that we raised with the department relates to educational material. The Legion currently provides a teachers' guide, which you have before you, to teachers across the country. The aim is to better educate teachers about the significance of remembrance and to offer suggested programs for their students. However, it is readily apparent that more educational material is required in the schools. Veterans Affairs Canada attempts to produce some of this material, including video presentations, but there is no solid basis, content or structure for the program. The Legion has suggested that VAC should take over sole responsibility for developing and distributing to schools a full teachers' and students' remembrance package.
Finally, honourable senators, in terms of the future of Canadian Forces, we believe that it is imperative that the nation recognizes that the sailors, soldiers and airmen of today serve their country with an unlimited liability and dedication that equates to that of those who have gone before them. On retirement from service, which spans operations in support of national, NATO and UN interests, these personnel truly deserve the title of ``veteran.''
A soldier who has lost his legs in combat in Bosnia is as much a veteran as those who served in the trenches of World War I, or World War II and Korea. Today the legion is pursuing various initiatives to promote this image of veterans to Canadians. Signposts reflecting a veterans' memorial highway and veterans' licence plates have been accomplished in concert with provincial governments, but more must be done.
VAC must not only open itself to the physical support of modern-day veterans, but must develop appropriate programs of commemoration to highlight the significant achievements of our serving military personnel. The Legion stands ready to assist in this regard.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Daly, for your comments. They were interesting and informative. I am sure there will be a number of questions.
Senator Wiebe: Mr. Daly, it is wonderful to see you before us once again. I want to thank you for the list of suggestions that you provided to us on how Veterans Affairs Canada can more adequately take care of our veterans when they are over taking part in some of these projects. While we were there last spring, for Juneau, we certainly realized some of the difficulties that our veterans were having and we saw firsthand some of the problems.
Along with a few other members, I had the opportunity on that particular trip to stay a few extra days and go to Passchendaele to be part of the service for the unknown soldiers who were buried. The two days in between provided us with the opportunity to tour some of the actual battlefields. Having walked on those battlefields, one has an altogether different perspective on what our veterans went through when they served our country there.
One of the discussions that took place was about the value, which you mentioned in your remarks, of having Canada's young people attend more of these ceremonies.
The question I will ask will be a difficult one, but I do not want you to take it the wrong way. I want to hear your views. Can you explain to me the value of the federal government taking veterans over for these ceremonies, versus the value of spending a similar amount of money taking grade 10 and 11 students over to view those battlefields?
Part of the reason I ask is that this is something that we will have to take a serious look at in the future. Because of age, our veterans are finding it more and more difficult to travel. This is especially noted at the reunions that take place. They are getting smaller in number every year. Our education systems depend on the whims of the provinces, not the federal government. Our young people are not learning anything about the history of what our people contributed to the great wars.
Students who have spent time over in Europe walking the battlefields come back to their classrooms with a wealth of information. That is a tremendous way of spreading the news amongst their peers. In terms of educating future generations, we will get a big bang for our buck. Could you please give me your views on that?
Mr. Daly: There are really two different types of pilgrimages. Historically, we have had the commemorative pilgrimage as sponsored by Veterans Affairs Canada, which has given our veterans an opportunity to go back to the battlefields, not only as a commemorative exercise for them, but also for the people of France, Belgium, England and other places to say thank you to the veterans. There has been that coming together between the inhabitants of those countries and our veterans who helped liberate them. It is very much a commemorative program designed for our veterans.
At the other end of the extreme, we are talking today of the educational pilgrimage that the Legion sponsors by taking youth leaders over to Europe, and hopefully, at some time in the future, young people themselves. Veterans Affairs Canada has embarked on a transition program whereby they have incorporated youth into the veterans' pilgrimage. As you know, it has been very successful in terms of crystallizing the sacrifice for these young people. It is significant. The compatibility between the veterans and the young people has been very positive in the way the pilgrimage has been organized. However, you are absolutely correct, that as we move on, the requirement for a commemorative pilgrimage of the type we have known in the past will wane. At the same time, it will become even more critical that we continue to take young Canadians overseas to focus on the actual battles and their significance.
Senator Wiebe: There is no need for you to make a comment on this if you do not wish to, but one of the remarks from the group that was at the Juno opening was how nice it would be if it were mandatory for every student in Canada — either in grade 11 or grade 12, in order to qualify for their graduation certificate — to spend two weeks over in Europe touring the battle sites. This would be quite an expensive program, but it was discussed amongst the three parties represented and met with acceptance by all of them. Of course, the only drawback would be cost. However, I wish to have it on the record that this idea is floating around. I certainly like it, but again, finding the government with the will to do it is another question.
Senator Kenny: I have a similar question to that of Senator Wiebe, to do with involving youth and educating young Canadians. You have described to the committee a program that involves a significant number of Canadian children through the schools. When I look at the program and what is happening, when I look at the teachers' guide, I would say it is all good, worthwhile material, but I do not see that it is exciting to young people. I might go so far as to say that it is stodgy. It seems to me the challenge facing you and us is how to connect with young people in a way that perhaps does not require a teacher telling a student to do something, that is more student-generated, more related to television or the sorts of things that young people find interesting and gravitate to naturally.
I am trying to give you a range of areas where perhaps we can have a discussion about ways the Legion sees things going, other than essay contests or poster contests. I do not know how you felt when you were in school, but they did not do a lot for me.
Mr. Daly: You have presented the challenge that we are all facing, and we have to make history exciting to attract young people. We continue to attempt to come up with various support programs to do that. Fundamentally, though, we still go back to the basis that we do need a good history program in the schools. There is great need for a foundation on which to build. If that educational history course of study existed across the country, it would be the basis for alternate programs.
For example, we are a major contributor to and sponsor of the Terry Fox Centre in Ottawa. That is a tremendously exciting program to bring Canada to young Canadians. As part of that, legionnaires go to speak about the military aspects of history.
Our new war museum is developing ways to make the story more relevant to young people. We will not build a museum that reflects the stodgy presentations of the past. We are trying to make the new Canadian War Museum an exciting place for young people to visit. The legion is playing a vital role, in consultation with the museum, in how to do that. We do not have any good answers. We recognize the challenge as you have presented it. We are doing our best. As long as we work collaboratively with families, schools, government and veterans organizations, I believe that we will make headway over time.
Senator Kenny: Let us talk first about the basis in the schools, in the history programs. Has the Legion had contact with departments of education across Canada? Have they agreed to make this a core part of their history or civics programs?
Mr. Daly: We have, but you can appreciate, as I mentioned in my statement, the fragmented nature of the beast with which we are dealing. This was one of the areas in which we have been successful in our contribution to the Terry Fox Centre, in that we bring teachers together from all parts of the country to the Terry Fox Centre to be the course instructors. They are critical in helping to achieve these goals. In like manner, we participate with the Council for Canadian Unity in bringing together teachers from across the country in various forums. Those have been some of the opportunities.
I must admit that we get a better response from some provinces than others. That is natural. For example, the Minister of Education in Manitoba introduced, at the request of the Legion, a very good Remembrance Day program in the schools that has been made mandatory in the province. That is one day, one element, whereas we should be trying to make these things relevant every day of the year. It is a challenge.
Senator Kenny: Have you developed a template with which you can go to each province and say, ``Here is a sample that we would like to you consider following; we think this should be the standard, and can you meet or exceed that standard?''
Mr. Daly: No, we have not, but the Dominion Institute has. I know that the chairman of the Dominion Institute has appeared before you in the past and they are making significant gains in trying to present that type of format to the education ministers.
Senator Kenny: Tom Axworthy was before us on another subject not long ago. He was appearing before us as an academic. He is involved with an organization called the Historica Foundation that I believe it is part of the CRB Foundation established by the Bronfmans. Are you familiar with that organization?
Mr. Daly: Yes, I am familiar with it.
Senator Kenny: They have a remarkable program that addresses portions of Canadian history and have prepared a program. The one that sticks in my mind is about Winnipeg and ``Valour Street,'' in which three VCs all happened to the live on the same street. Mr. Axworthy has taken history and, together with corporate sponsors, packaged it to make it interesting and exciting, if in bite-sized pieces, if you will.
Have you thought about similar programs? Have you been in contact with Mr. Axworthy about doing some youth- oriented pieces?
Mr. Daly: There have been limited discussions between the Legion and the Historica Foundation. Today, it is an issue of finances. These programs are very expensive, as you can appreciate. For us, it is a matter of priorities. That does not mean that we will not get involved, because we are finding that that type of presentation is very effective. The television bites that Historica has produced have been very effective. For example, we contributed to the development of a four-minute video on the two-minute pause to remember that is being released this remembrance period. It is a wonderful video. After it was produced, we had a problem trying to convince various television media to present it. We even went to the major film people, AMC, Famous Players and Cineplex Odeon, and told them that we would prepare it for them if they would play it. The clip only takes four minutes. Unfortunately, there was no willingness from the movie organizations to show it either as a trailer or a preview type of thing during the remembrance period.
Senator Kenny: This subcommittee will be at Sunnybrook in Toronto next week. Organizations like City TV are very youth oriented and seem to capture the imagination of a certain age group. Have you had any luck with organizations like that?
Mr. Daly: Some of those organizations are very good, and City TV is an example. We do provide public service announcements, PSAs, for all radio and television media across the country. Some are very supportive and are playing the video in prime time; others play it at 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the morning as part of their Canadian contribution. We do produce PSAs on a yearly basis for use on radio and television.
Senator Kenny: Have they been receptive to having veterans come and talk to kids at the studio?
Mr. Daly: We have various programs whereby the veterans get out to schools and other organizations. We do not have a specific program in which the veterans are invited into the television studios.
Senator Kenny: Is that worth considering?
Mr. Daly: I think it could be.
Senator Day: Mr. Daly, to follow up on Senator Kenny's line of questioning, and you touched on the subject at the very end of your remarks, I think my colleagues should be aware of the program that was initiated in New Brunswick. I believe this was done through the New Brunswick command, where veterans go to the schools, talk to the students on an informal basis and explain what the medals are for and what they have done. That program seems to work well in New Brunswick on a limited scale, but it is all volunteer-based, of course.
Mr. Daly: That occurs across the country, senator.
Senator Day: Could you assist me with respect to the various organizations that deal with veterans? In addition to the federal government's Veterans Affairs Canada, there is the Royal Canadian Legion, of which you are a representative as secretary of Dominion Command, that is, the overall national command of the Legion.
Mr. Daly: That is correct.
Senator Day: Then there are various provincial commands of the Royal Canadian Legion.
Mr. Daly: That is correct.
Senator Day: Within the provincial commands, there are various local commands, such as in my hometown of Hampton. That would be part of the New Brunswick command?
Mr. Daly: Yes, senator. There are just over 400,000 members of the Royal Canadian Legion and they are divided into 1,600 branches across the country. Those branches are organized under provincial command. We have 10 provincial commands. They are responsible for providing management and executive support to those 1,600 branches. Dominion Command, as the national headquarters of the Royal Canadian Legion, is responsible for policy development and management of the major programs such as the poppy campaign.
Senator Day: Your mention of the poppy campaign reminds me of the controversy we had last year over different provincial commands using different types of poppies. You have the overall responsibility and authority for the poppy campaign?
Mr. Daly: Last year was a transition year. For a number of years, we had produced poppies with a green centre; the traditional poppy had a black centre. Our members had asked us to revert back to the black-centred poppy. We brought that out last year, but there were a number of green-centred poppies held at the branches. This year, they will all be black-centred poppies.
Senator Day: Can you tell me what relationship you have with the army, navy and air force veterans groups and the National Council of Veterans Associations?
Mr. Daly: We are partners. We have an arrangement with them.
As a little bit of history, just after the First World War, we must have had 25 different veterans' groups all vying for support from the government. The biggest at the time was the Great War Veterans Association, and they called for an amalgamation of all of these organizations. Many of them came together and formed the Royal Canadian Legion. Two of them did not. One was The War Amps, a charity, and the other was the Army Navy Veterans of Canada, which has remained as a separate organization. They have added the term ``air force'' to their name, and they have a membership of approximately 25,000 to 30,000.
The National Council of Veterans Associations, Mr. Chatterton's organization, is relatively modern. It is an amalgam of approximately 35 to 40 smaller associations, many of them traditional war veterans' organizations, such as the Korea Veterans Association, Dieppe Prisoners of War Association, the RCAF Prisoners of War Association — the pure war veterans' organizations.
The Legion not only consists of war veterans, but also those who believe in the aims and objectives of our organization but who have not served.
Senator Day: Would cross-membership be common?
Mr. Daly: Very common.
Senator Day: Which of these organizations and associations that you have mentioned deal primarily with Veterans Affairs Canada in terms of promoting the programs that benefit veterans?
Mr. Daly: I would say all three are equally committed to advocacy with Veterans Affairs Canada. In fact, we often meet with the minister jointly; very seldom would you see much disagreement among the three major organizations on the basic advocacy issues that we bring forward. There might be some differences in the detail, but we try to keep each other advised of our intentions and concerns. We are all working together for veterans.
Senator Day: You anticipated where I was going with that. You have answered that question. Just so that we understand, for the younger people, and maybe some who are not so young, the cenotaphs in the various communities are the only visible remembrance they have of the sacrifice made by veterans.
Who maintains those cenotaphs? You talk about them briefly here, and you talk about Veteran Affairs Canada maybe looking after 30 across Canada. There are probably hundreds, and maybe thousands, of them.
Mr. Daly: There are thousands of them. Many were built and developed by the Royal Canadian Legion, by our local branches. The Royal Canadian Legion maintains those to this day. I must say that the funding for that does not come from the poppy campaign. Poppy campaign funds go directly to the support of veterans. They must go to a living person. The funding for the maintenance of cenotaphs and monuments and all of the programs that we provide comes out of the members' pockets.
Maintenance of memorials is a prime objective for our branches across the nation. However, there are a number where the local branch no longer exists and there is no source of funding to look after that specific local monument in that village or town. In many cases, the municipality has not taken on that responsibility. That concerns us, and we are trying to develop a program within the Legion. What role could we play in trying to support that type of maintenance program? At the same time, we are being very aggressive with Veterans Affairs Canada. We believe that they should be taking a role in this, particularly for monuments of national significance.
Senator Day: As of today, Veterans Affairs Canada has not agreed to maintain any of the cenotaphs across the country?
Mr. Daly: Veterans Affairs Canada does not. Of course, the National War Memorial is maintained by Public Works. You might know that the Legion has also provided the funding for the lighting of the National War Memorial. The Legion provided the funding for the bronze tablets around the memorial that explain it, and is also providing funding to support the Valiants project, which will be across the street from the memorial.
VAC's role, in terms of monuments, is principally abroad — Vimy, Beaumont, St. Julien and places like that.
Senator Day: You have suggested that 30 memorials across Canada should be supported and maintained by Veterans Affairs Canada. You are helping with this transition to remembering within Canada, as opposed to offshore.
Mr. Daly: We have offered to work with them in trying to identify the monuments of national significance.
Senator Day: I have one other question. Mr. Daly indicated that he would speak further with respect to wreaths. There has been a change of policy, we understand, and part of the problem was that senators were not initially included in that change of policy. I think we have that sorted out. However, I have heard from several members of Parliament, both in the House of Commons and the Senate, who have indicated that they are not satisfied with the size or quality of the wreath being provided and will buy their own. Previously, they had obtained those through local Legion branches, and now the local branches seem to be happy to leave this to Veteran Affairs Canada. Can you explain to us what is happening? Is it another transition problem we will be able to live through, or is the Royal Canadian Legion happy with the change of policy?
Mr. Daly: This is a logistical challenge. For years, the Legion has provided the majority of wreaths across the country for memorial services; and in the past, a senator or member of Parliament would go to the local branch, purchase the wreath and participate in the ceremony.
A number of years ago, one of the former ministers of Veterans Affairs Canada — about two ministers ago — asked us to ensure that a wreath was delivered to every branch in Canada for the local member of Parliament. That was a request from the Government of Canada. We followed through on that. A medium-sized wreath was delivered to every branch in Canada on behalf of the local member of Parliament.
It was a logistical challenge for us because we had to bring our local branches into the program and explain that they were not getting the money for the wreaths. Veterans Affairs Canada purchased them from Dominion Command; so we offset the money to the branches and asked them, ``Please hold that wreath, because the member will contact you.''
A problem arose because, in many cases, members might have five or six branches in their riding and could not attend them all, nor did they have people to go to each of those activities. There were also problems in that there were remembrance ceremonies in some communities where there was no branch, and the member wanted to attend.
The program had a number of rough edges. Wreaths were not being used. They were being left aside. People were not showing up. One branch was becoming concerned because the member did not come to them, but to the branch down the road — all of these sorts of things.
This time around, the minister said — and the department requested — could we send the wreaths to each of the members' constituency offices and they could use them as they see fit. That is what we have done.
We have raised the issue of senators before, because we had a number of instances where honourable senators have come to our local remembrance ceremonies and a wreath was not made available. The senators felt that that the Legion had inspired a privileged program that just looked after members. We had to explain this is not a Legion program; this is the department's program. We were pleased to learn that this year, the minister wanted all senators to be provided with wreaths as well.
This has come as a very late order for us. From what I can understand of the logistics, we are providing wreaths to 66 Slater Street for all senators, and there is a distribution process between the department at 66 Slater and senators. We are not quite sure how the wreath is getting from them to you — at least this year.
Senator Day: In other years, will senators be treated in the same way as members of the House of Commons?
Mr. Daly: I would hope that would be the case, Senator Day, and that the provider, the Department of Veterans Affairs, would make it easier for us to get that order out for the senators. They have taken the big step this year — I am sure at your own urging — to include all senators. I am glad that is happening because it will solve a lot of problems for us at the local level. We do not want to offend anybody. We want everyone to be able to participate, members and honourable senators.
The Chairman: I want to introduce two of our colleagues who have joined us, Senator Forrestall from Nova Scotia and Senator Atkins from Ontario.
Exercising the prerogative of the Chair, I would like to ask one question. A week from today, we will be fortunate to have as our witnesses the Minister of Veterans Affairs and his deputy minister, and on Friday of next week this committee will visit the Sunnybrook Veterans Hospital in Toronto. We are interested in how the veterans are faring in that institution and in things like the quality of the food, accommodation and medical care, and so forth.
I was wondering whether you might have any comments on the situation at Sunnybrook and suggestions as to what we might look for and inquire into; also whether there is any particular matter that you would like us to raise with the minister and deputy minister next week. The date of the minister's appearance before us is October 29, and the date of our visit to Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto is Friday, October 31.
Mr. Daly: We have always been so pleased with the support of this committee in advancing programs for our veterans. We are very pleased to see that your committee is still making positive overtures to the department and visiting the various facilities. When you go to Sunnybrook, you will find the veterans committee there will be able to effectively point out to you areas that they would be interested in having you pursue.
In general, there has been a tremendous improvement in the rapport between the department and veterans over the past few years. Awareness of the long-term care program definitely needed to be improved. We went into that very difficult period when hospitals were transferred to the provincial authorities and there seemed to be a lack of control in implementing appropriate standards. There has been, over the last number of years, a very positive move toward ensuring that the standards of care are maintained. We are still not satisfied that they represent the standards that used to exist, or that currently exist at St. Anne's, the last remaining veterans hospital in Canada, but there has certainly been increased awareness of the problems and a determination on behalf of officials in the department to resolve those.
The issue of long-term care, of course, has been complemented, as you know, by our concern for widows and spouses of veterans, and the department has seen fit to move very aggressively in that area as well. I would not want to suggest to you that we are not happy with those initiatives that the department or this minister has taken. This minister has proven to be a friend of veterans and a very effective spokesman for them within Parliament.
The Chairman: You raised one item, and I cannot resist asking whether you have any more information than we do about the extension of the VIP, Veterans Independence Program, to all widows rather than an arbitrary, select number. You will recall the Prime Minister himself indicated he wanted to look into this and see if the program, I assume, could be extended to everyone. Do you have any news?
Mr. Daly: It was a great day when we heard that the Prime Minister was becoming involved. We do not have any more news or knowledge than you. We asked the department from the beginning to investigate this as an option, to determine what the costs would be, and we are confident that the wheels are turning behind the scenes today to try to meet our and, of course, the Prime Minister's, expectation in that area.
The Chairman: We will both follow that file closely, I am sure.
Senator Forrestall: Could I ask a parochial, local Ottawa question? It apparently has been resolved, although I am not sure about that because I have been running around all morning telling people to raise hell about it. There was, as you may know, a parade tax in the nation's capital, and November 11 was to have caused a sizeable bill for the local Legion, for the participants. Have you raised that matter, Chairman?
The Chairman: I raised it privately with Mr. Daly, and he was not aware of it.
Senator Forrestall: Apparently we raised hell somewhere, and the official explanation is that it was a clerical error. The Legion will not be charged to march on November 11. I take credit for that, sir, and I am not a full-time member of your committee.
The Chairman: You are a welcome guest at any time.
Senator Forrestall: I want to ask one question — and I keep asking it from time to time — about the definition of a ``veteran.'' I will use one example, if I may. An individual joined the navy, in this case, rose to the rank of captain, and was on the list for promotion. He participated, among other things, in virtually every exercise that the Canadian navy was involved in, including the Cuban crisis. For one reason or another, he became and remains ill. He is not able to speak for himself because of his condition. This is a man who participated in everything except some vague area of war zones. This is a man who went to the Gulf, participated in the standing Atlantic force fleet and commanded and controlled other navies from Canadian war vessels. He is not a veteran. He is a graduate of Royal Roads. He is not a veteran, so he cannot go into a hospital where his colleagues are.
Has the Legion seized itself of this question? Why have you not? I have been somewhat amazed over the years, and I suggest that is a long time, that the Legion has not taken this up. You have definitions of a ``veteran'' and what service constitutes a veteran's designation.
If you are on patrol off the coast of Cuba and involved in something vis-à-vis a nuclear threat — surveillance, if you will, or protection of the coast — you have to be in a zone that is not really ``peaceful.''
Can you enlighten me a little on this area?
Mr. Daly: This has been an area of concern to the Legion for some time. There is no doubt that all who served post war, through the Cold War, on NATO operation missions, those who lost their lives in the conduct of those missions and those who were wounded in peacekeeping missions are veterans.
As an aside, there is one thing you could ask at Sunnybrook, namely, what is their standard of palliative care for our veterans there. It is an area that we are concerned about. The issue of designating a soldier, sailor or airman as a veteran has been in existence a long time. We first started our initiatives in that regard about 10 years ago, when we approached the Chief of the Defence Staff to ask him if he could do something, at least socially, if not on an official level, to identify those who have been wounded or have conducted themselves in a significant manner in operations. For various reasons that would impinge on costs to programs, it never happened. The forces themselves wanted to identify people as veterans. We made headway three years ago when we were able to convince the Department of Veterans Affairs and DND to adopt a definition of ``veteran'' that would include all of us who served post war. That definition states that veteran status is extended to former Canadian Forces members and reserve force members who meet military occupational classification requirements and who have been released from the forces with an honourable discharge. In other words, all those who have served honourably and have left the forces are now veterans. In fact, in your province and in the other three Maritime provinces, those veterans will now be able to identify themselves with a veteran's licence plate.
What is the relationship to the Pension Act? That is where we are having a problem. How will we take care of present and future veterans' access to programs and facilities? You have to have served overseas to have priority access to a bed today. What happens to those of us who need beds today and who are not overseas war veterans? It is a challenge, and we will continue to fight in that regard and advocate for a more effective appreciation of what a veteran is and how it applies in terms of the Pension Act.
Senator Forrestall: I can think of no one better to pursue the issue of the present structure of the Royal Canadian Legion than a minister who has demonstrated some obvious concern for the difficulties that remain in the path of veterans. He has gone out of his way to be helpful and this is one other small area that could rightfully be pursued.
Senator Atkins: Does the Royal Canadian Legion have any posts or chapters offshore? If so, do these veterans get the same benefits that they would if they were here in Canada?
Mr. Daly: We have 12 branches in the United States, 4 in Germany and have opened a branch in Holland. We have members of the Legion all across the country. Are you talking about Legion benefits for these people being the same as for legionnaires in Canada?
Senator Atkins: Yes.
Mr. Daly: They receive the same benefits as other Legion members and participate fully in our various programs, conventions and caucus gatherings.
Senator Atkins: Are they under your responsibility?
Mr. Daly: We term them ``zones of Dominion command.'' In the U.S. we have the east and west zone; We have the Germany zone, but now that we have opened a branch in Holland and will be opening one in Belgium, we will rename Germany zone as Europe zone and will have a zone commander on the executive over there to look after those branches.
Senator Atkins: Do you still have a post 120 in New York?
Mr. Daly: I cannot recall. I suspect we do. We have changed the nomenclature for the branches in the States. All the zones refer to themselves as branches, but eastern zone in the U.S. has retained the title ``post'' for its facilities.
Senator Atkins: My father was the commander of the post 120.
Mr. Daly: It could be; I do not have the list in front of me.
Senator Atkins: You mentioned the Valiants project. Can you tell us a little about how that is going?
Mr. Daly: Very successfully. It is a great project to highlight significant Canadian war heroes and how military events have shaped Canadian history. The Department of Canadian Heritage has endorsed the project. Rather than statues, we are going to erect a Wall of Valiants across the street from the War Memorial Bridge. We are in the planning stages of that.
Senator Atkins: They are consulting you and you are having input into the project?
Mr. Daly: Absolutely. You can check the Web site. It is at www.legion.ca/valiants.
The Chairman: It was a happy day for us when that project got back on the rails. You may have noticed that some members had to leave because they have a caucus meeting. However, we are entitled to continue. I have one or two questions to ask.
Can you bring me up to date — and I will ask the minister this next week — on the status of the $30-million restoration project for the monuments in Europe and, specifically, at Vimy?
Mr. Daly: I have no news on that other than what a great day it was when they announced that they would do something about it. We know there are good people associated with the project and we are looking forward to it.
The Chairman: Is it your understanding that the work is proceeding?
Mr. Daly: Yes.
The Chairman: This has been a hobbyhorse of mine. I do not want this taken the wrong way, as Senator Wiebe said in preface to one of his questions. It is increasingly important to bring younger serving members of the Armed Forces and veterans before the students, because if the only people they see are overseas veterans and, therefore, elderly individuals, the knowledge of Canada's ongoing military obligations, commitments and achievements might get blurred or overlooked. From the Legion's perspective, are you satisfied that enough younger serving members of the Armed Forces or veterans are participating in meetings with high school students and the like?
Mr. Daly: No, we are not. I think there is more opportunity for serving personnel to participate in those types of programs. I do not think there could be anything better than having a veteran in Legion dress and a young soldier, sailor or airman attending a school as comrades to discuss the issues of sacrifice with young people today. The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces are keen on involving themselves in these programs, but I do not think it has been as successful as it could be.
We are making an attempt to bring more young serving people into the Legion so they will become much more aware of those who have gone before and their significance. We have started a program to try to enhance our image with members of the forces. Over the years, the Legion lost contact with its roots.
We focused so much on old war veterans and their needs that we were not considering as deeply as we should those who are serving today. We lost contact.
We have made great strides in trying to correct that omission. We are spending a lot of time focusing on them. We have now introduced programs whereby we are spending close to $100,000 a year sponsoring the show tours, for example, that go to Bosnia. We are putting up the money for such things as sports championships in the Canadian Forces. The forces no longer have funding for sport programs. Therefore, we have put up the money to support sports. There will be a big Canadian Forces banquet on November 1 for the winners. That is where the Legion will be acknowledged for the support it is providing to these programs.
The Chairman: I am glad to hear that. I commend you. Maybe I do not move in the right circles, or perhaps it is a well-kept secret, but I did not know that the Legion stepped forward to provide the lighting for the National War Memorial. If you had not stepped forward, would there have been no lighting?
Mr. Daly: I suspect that eventually, the Department of Public Works or Veterans Affairs Canada would have put lighting in, but at the time it was first introduced, it was one way that the Legion could show its support for these programs.
We have run many programs collaboratively with the NCC and Public Works. Both departments have been very good in trying to promote various programs. We are getting great support from the NCC today for the Valiants project, as well as from the Department of Canadian Heritage.
The Chairman: Going back to the question of serving members of the armed forces interacting with students across the country — I am not seeking to cast blame or aspersions in any way, shape or form — is there resistance on the part of the armed forces or the department to providing serving personnel to participate in that program?
Mr. Daly: I do not think so. It is just that the footprint is not as large as it used to be.
I used to be the commander of a base in Summerside, P.E.I. We do not have a military base in Prince Edward Island any more. We now have fewer than half the bases that we had 25 years ago, so the footprint has shrunk. We do not have the easy access to serving members to go into the schools that we had before. We have a situation where we have more people under arms in the police force in Toronto than in the Canadian army. There are not many soldiers, sailors and airmen left. Those who remain are very much involved in operational duties. It is a matter of the footprint and availability. However, where it is possible, the forces have been very good in trying to get their soldiers out.
Senator Atkins: There are several programs for educating young people on the Hill, such as the Forum of Young Canadians.
The Chairman: Encounters with Canada is the other one. Just before you came in, Senator Atkins, Mr. Daly was explaining that the Royal Canadian Legion is the sponsor of the Encounters with Canada program at the Terry Fox Youth Centre.
Senator Atkins: Are there veterans who meet with these groups?
Mr. Daly: Yes. Their program provides for a number of different guests to come to speak to them. As part of that program, the Royal Canadian Legion has veterans from the local area who spend time with the students, both in a communal gathering and then in syndicates. It is a very productive program.
Senator Atkins: I would think so. They are generally top students who are very interested in the programs to which they are introduced.
Mr. Daly: That is right. It is a very good program.
Senator Atkins: On another note, one of the things that surprised me is the lack of knowledge among members of Parliament about Vimy House. You are smiling. It astounds me, because it is one of the most fascinating places in Ottawa and nobody knows about it.
Mr. Daly: It was a great move a few years ago when the director of the museum opened Vimy House as part of the exhibits and more than just a storage facility. That is why we are so excited about the new museum. What we see at Vimy House today will be a composite part of the new museum.
Senator Atkins: Are tours arranged?
Mr. Daly: There have been public tours of Vimy House in the past while, but of course we are reaching a stage where all of that is being shut down before the relocation to the new museum. However, it has always been an out-of-the-way type of facility. Even when people know where to go to see Vimy House, they still have trouble finding it. It is a terrible location.
Senator Atkins: It is fascinating.
Mr. Daly: It is a fascinating place.
The Chairman: Mr. Daly, my understanding is that Veterans Affairs Canada has established an advisory committee to help in the planning of the 60th anniversary of D-Day, the Battle of Normandy, this coming June, 2004. Is the Legion represented? I am not aware of who the members of the advisory committee are.
You have provided us with a list of specific recommendations to help veterans when they participate in pilgrimages and commemorative events. I assume this has gone to the department, and I think we sent it ourselves. I assume that you are confident that these recommendations, which seem eminently sensible to me as one who participated last year in the Juno Beach ceremonies, will be implemented. Can you comment?
Mr. Daly: The new deputy minister has gone through a learning process, has attended a number of those most recent pilgrimages and is aware of the comments that we have made. He is very supportive of those events.
The Chairman: What about the advisory committee?
Mr. Daly: The advisory committee is chaired by MGen. Rohmer, and the Legion's representative is our grand president, LGen. Belzile. He is also representing his own organization, the Canadian Battle of Normandy Foundation. There are representatives from NCVA, ANAVETS and various veterans' communities. They have been working, as you know, for more than a year. They went to Juno Beach to get a flavour of what was happening this year. They are progressing in their planning.
We have been involved in the details and have made suggestions, as have the other organizations. Normandy veterans themselves have been directly involved.
The Chairman: Can you give us any idea of whether it will be a large pilgrimage in June 2004 for the 60th anniversary of D-Day?
Mr. Daly: I would not want to pre-empt the committee. They are still in deliberations. They want to ensure an effective commemoration at Normandy itself, but there is also a concern that one year later is the 60th anniversary of the end of the war. There are complications, because there has to be that major ceremony to mark the end of the Second World War.
The Chairman: There should be a major ceremony to mark the liberation of Holland, too.
Mr. Daly: What will happen? This debate over future pilgrimages is still up in the air. When the time comes that the veterans are too old to participate in the pilgrimages, we will have to look at the educational aspects.
The Chairman: It remains only for me to thank you for your helpful testimony. We wish you well and look forward to continuing to work closely together.
The committee adjourned.