Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 10 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 29, 2003
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:20 p.m. to study on veterans services and benefits, commemorative activities and veterans' charters.
Senator Michael A. Meighen (Chairman) in the Chair.
[English]
The Chairman: I should like to call to order this meeting of the subcommittee on Veteran Affairs.
We are particularly fortunate to have with us today the Minister of Veteran Affairs, Mr. Rey Pagtakhan. Welcome, minister.
I would ask you to begin by introducing the officials who are with you today. Then I understand you have a statement to make.
Please proceed.
The Honourable Rey Pagtakhan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Veterans Affairs: Let me start by saying how pleased I am to have this opportunity to appear once again before your Senate committee, particularly as you inquire into Canada's remembrance activities and other collaborative issues. I should like to focus on those matters, but of course questions may be posed on any matter.
With me this afternoon are, to my left, Mr. Jack Stagg, who is the Deputy Minister, and, to my right, Mr. Robert Mercer, who is the Executive Director of the Public Affairs Branch.
In the gallery are Director General, Corporate Planning Division, Mr. Dan Fenety and Mr. Brian Ferguson, Assistant Deputy Minister, Veterans Services Branch.
Our meeting today on issues of commemoration is timely, given that Veterans' Week and Remembrance Day are just around the corner. Over the course of the next year, our commemorative plate will be quite full as well.
The goal of our Canada Remembers program is to keep alive the achievements and sacrifices of those who served and sacrificed for their nation — in times of war, conflict and peace. We are particularly keen to reach out to young people who have never known war. How we are making the connection is a matter I shall return to later in my remarks.
In terms of the organization of our Canada Remembers program, it breaks down into three main components: one, the national and international memorials; two, public information and research; and three, the community engagement component.
The national and international memorials components include work associated with funerals, burials, graves, cemeteries, monuments and the preservation of battlefield sites. That includes, under the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, grave maintenance for more than 116,000 Canadian war dead located in 74 countries. We also concern ourselves with the care of 350,000 veterans' gravesites, located in approximately 15,000 cemeteries located across the country, in addition to the preservation of the departmental cemeteries in Esquimalt, B.C., and Halifax, Nova Scotia.
A substantial initiative is the five-year, $30-million Canadian battlefield memorials restoration project to restore Canada's 13 First World War memorials in Europe, including the Canadian National Vimy Memorial. Reconstruction work is anticipated to begin early next year.
The publication and research component includes all forms of information and learning materials concerning our military history. Our Web site is substantial in this regard and is used by thousands of Canadians, including youth, every year. We produce and distribute multimedia education kits focusing on the First World War, the Second World War, the Korean War and the contribution of Canada's merchant navy.
Finally, let me to turn to the community engagement component of the Canada Remembers program. It covers all activities that help Canadians, particularly young Canadians, recognize their country's role in conflict over the past 100 years. This includes local commemorative ceremonies, overseas events, learning events and many associated activities associated with Veterans' Week, both in the Nation's Capital and throughout Canada, via the work of our regional and district offices.
For the past six years, we have declared the week leading up to Remembrance Day as Veterans' Week. Each year, there is a different theme. This year, the theme is Canada's role in the Korean War. Let me say that I attended a number of Korea remembrance ceremonies in Canada earlier this year. In July, I had the privilege of leading an overseas pilgrimage of some 50 Korean War veterans back to the places where their comrades fought and died. Some of you found the time and, I am sure, enjoyed the pilgrimage for the deep meaning that it has given to all of us.
As you know, each year in early November, the Senate holds a unique ceremony of its own, commemorating some single aspects of Canadian military history. Next week, on November 4, memorial crosses will be presented to a nationally representative group of family members of those Canadian soldiers killed in a horrific train accident in Canoe River, British Columbia, on the way to embarkation for the Korean War. It is a little known and seldom told story of Canadian military history, and it promises to be a very special event.
Other events over the course of Veterans' Week will focus on learning opportunities for youth. As the number of war-era veterans continues to decline, it is crucial to maintain their stories and experiences as a significant part of Canada's history and heritage. That means getting to our young people, because it is through youth that this legacy kept alive for all time.
To that end, we have developed partnerships with Encounters with Canada, where young people from every province and territory come to Ottawa and devote a week of their time around Remembrance Day to a variety of learning opportunities. I must say that I have enjoyed any and all opportunities I had with them, when my schedule permitted me to participate. These learning opportunities include presentations, discussions, visits and social activities designed to increase their understanding of the sacrifices and achievements of Canadian veterans. Particularly, we link youth with veterans to share their experiences.
We also have a partnership with the Dominion Institute. Their Memory Project assists with the goal of ``passing the torch'' by helping prepare veterans, through workshops and training sessions, to visit public classrooms across the country to share their personal stories with Canadian youth.
I had the privilege of attending a workshop in Winnipeg, and I must tell you that although the group was relatively small there was a lot of excitement in the room. Even the Winnipeg Free Press took a special interest; in fact, following the paper's interview, why remember, I have come to know that we remember for a lot more reasons, which we continue to say. I will say more about that later.
We are continuing to shape and refine our youth strategy in consultation with veterans and veterans' organizations.
Next year is the sixtieth anniversary of the D-Day landings at Normandy. We all know that. We will be leading a group of D-Day veterans back to Juno for the anniversary celebrations next June. Next year, too, we will also be marking the sixtieth anniversary of the Italian campaign, with remembrance activities here in Canada and abroad.
While I am on the subject of pilgrimages, let me turn to a few concerns I have been informed about. The first item concerns the selection process for overseas events led by VAC. Who gets to go, and why?
First, I wish to tell you that neither my department nor I chooses the veteran or the parliamentary delegates. In the case of the former, the department contacts the regimental associations of the major units that participated in the campaign being commemorated, as the national veterans associations. We invite them to nominate delegates.
With respect to the selection of parliamentarians, the department writes to the Leader of the Government and the Leader of the Opposition, in the Senate and in the House of Commons, to solicit their nominations. The selections are truly made by them. We invite them to nominate a representative to accompany the delegation. The very necessary youth component is selected by VAC partners such as Cadets Canada and Encounters with Canada.
The Department of National Defence is responsible for selecting military representatives, and my department encourages media representation so that the stories told overseas will be told in Canada.
From personal experiences, I can tell you that the most heart-warming image you will ever see on a pilgrimage is the growing bond between wartime veterans and high school students or cadets. The experience affects both sides at a very profound level.
I am also led to believe that some of you have expressed concerns about the health and safety of elderly veterans as they undertake these pilgrimages, and rightly so. Many months of preparation go into a pilgrimage with this very subject in mind. Travel itineraries and scheduled events are planned in order to minimize the effects of time and environment. We are very sensitive to the special needs of veterans, particularly with respect to their health care needs, considering the age range they are in. Appropriate rest periods are included in the agenda, special dietary needs are met, protection from the elements is always provided and medical attention is available 24 hours a day.
In part, this explains the size of the VAC staff accompanying pilgrimages. I think we should continue to be firm and strong that it is the duty of the department to go there and attend to them. The number of staff in attendance should not be the issue but, rather, the well-being and safety of the veterans is the issue and, therefore, we must attend.
We have conducted surveys with veterans from the Dieppe and Korea pilgrimages and we will, of course, take heed of any concerns and suggestions they may have. Our priority is the well-being of our veterans. Certainly, I would welcome any input from this committee. We understand that returning to the former battlegrounds can open many wounds and sad memories for veterans, and we are committed to treating them with the respect and dignity they so much deserve.
As a final matter, let me turn to the subject of distribution and laying of the Remembrance Day wreaths. In past years, the department has purchased commemorative wreaths for parliamentarians and forwarded them to each local branch of the Royal Canadian Legion across the country. Those wishing to participate in Remembrance Day ceremonies could then make contact with their local legion branch. The process has been found not to be very efficient or effective.
As a result, the department has changed the distribution process, on its initiative. These changes were made following consultation with the full support of the Royal Canadian Legion.
Hence, instead of sending wreaths to local branches of the legion, wreaths will now be sent to each MP's constituency office, for use by MPs at Remembrance Day ceremonies. For senators, my department will provide senators with wreaths upon request, if they wish to participate in Remembrance Day ceremonies.
In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, Canada is a better nation for what veterans have done in the service of country and human dignity and for what we as a citizenry have done for them and in their memory.
Come Remembrance Day and remembrance week, a nation reflects. We reflect on the achievements and sacrifices of our veterans and their fallen comrades who paid the ultimate sacrifice and on the contributions of those on the home front. We also reflect and realize that the nature of theatres of war has changed over time, from battlefields created following a formal declaration of war to battlefields just the same following a united world's decision to keep peace or make one. We reflect on how these moments and periods in history gave us a common cause as a people committed to human decency. From the veterans, I know from their lips that they regarded their service as a sense of duty, as doing their part; to others, it was a release from poverty. However, for all of them, it was a time of war and danger. We reflect and discover that we are renewing our faith in freedom, peace, justice, truth and knowledge — the essential elements of human dignity. We reflect on the principle that where we insist on having a voice in world affairs Canada discharges a duty to humanity. We also send a message to the members of the Canadian Forces, active and reservists alike, that we appreciate what they have done and are committed to do.
Hence, we say that, as we remember, we will never forget, that indeed we will always remember.
I would now be pleased to receive any questions from the committee.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Minister
Senator Day: Mr. Minister, you anticipated a number of points that we have been discussing in this committee, and I thank you for doing that. It makes it easier for us to come to the specific questions.
The work that has been done by Veteran Affairs Canada over the past while has been commendable. As a committee, we often, in our reports and elsewhere, compliment the work you are doing.
There were a couple of issues that did not leave a good impression on the public. One of those you have dealt with here is the wreath situation, which now seems to be under control. We also heard last week from the Dominion Secretary of the Royal Canadian Legion, who that indicated they were happy with the situation. Hence, that that issue seems to have been put to rest. We were just going through a bit of a transition, in making sure that wreaths are available for parliamentarians, including both the House of Commons and the Senate.
The other area in which there is still some question, I think, in the minds of the public is the program for surviving spouses of deceased veterans in relation to the program of keeping veterans in their residence. It is a good program, and we understand that the problem still is with respect to retroactivity, for between the periods when the program was cancelled to when the program was reintroduced. We read figures of approximately 23,000 potential claimants in that time frame. Various figures have been floating around as to what that would cost for Veteran Affairs, for the Government of Canada, to go back retroactively and cover all those potential claimants.
Can you help us a little bit with that, and tell us where that initiative is.
Mr. Pagtakhan: Firstly, I appreciate your appreciation for the work of the department, but I must say that this is due to the rank and file of this department, who I honestly believe, like you, are making a positive difference in the lives of our veterans.
On the issue of wreaths, I am pleased we have solved the issue. If there are still lingering issues, please let me know.
On the issue of surviving spouses, the Veterans Independence Program, which is very much in the media today, you are right, the figure has been bandied about in the media. In terms of the exact figure, we are trying to search for as close a figure as possible. The figure may well be within the department's initial estimate, which was based on mortality rates alone. However, there are other factors in the determination of the actual number, of course, and we have asked our research department to apply all conceivable research tools to come to the closest number. We have pledged, as has the Prime Minister, to continue to examine this issue, and the department is very much engaged.
With respect to the number, of course, I will not comment any further, until I have the final figure.
Be that as it may, the substantive issue is this: Do we provide benefits as we have provided with the change in regulation as of June, that is, giving the benefits to those who were on benefits, continuing them forward for life, based of course on the criteria for continuing eligibility, as well as those coming in for the first time — in other words, the spouses, subsequent to the change in regulation.
The question becomes: What about those who were there? Their benefits had lapsed following the one-year extension before we instituted the change in the regulation. As I said repeatedly in the House of Commons and in public, this issue remains in the heart of this minister, as I am sure it remains in the hearts of all members of parliament, both in the House of Commons and Senate. We are committed to addressing this issue as best we can, knowing that at that time the fiscal resources were not there or we would have addressed it already. We are still searching for the fiscal resources, if I can be bold enough to put it that way.
This is an excellent program, and because of its excellence and my inherent philosophy and optimism, I continue to be optimistic that we will be able to find the solution we all desire to achieve.
Senator Day: My next question relates to the discussion we had Mr. Duane Daly, Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion. Parliamentarians are received a lot of calls and requests by local legions and groups across Canada with respect to the maintenance of cenotaphs. With respect to the many memorials and cenotaphs across the country that local legions and local communities do not have the money to maintain, we asked if the Royal Canadian Legion Dominion Command was involved in helping to maintain those. Mr. Daly indicated to us last week that they made a proposal to VAC and to the federal government with respect to a certain number that would be maintained by the federal government. My recollection is that the RCL hoped the federal government would maintain 25 to 30 of them and that they, the RCL, would try to maintain the other cenotaphs.
Can you help us with respect to that issue?
Mr. Pagtakhan: This has been a very current issue in the minds of members of the House of Commons, because of the many private motions that have been tabled and voted on, and statements I have made in the media on this issue.
Let me just remind honourable senators that cenotaphs have evolved in this country — there are some 6,000 cenotaphs now across the nation — through the efforts of the communities themselves. We should not lose sight of that very important aspect of Canadian participation, that out of their own initiatives they have been able to build these local cenotaphs, which therefore are a source of pride and ownership.
I understand the difficulty with respect to the exposure to elements. I remember — and Mr. Stagg and Mr. Mercer can refresh me on this — that sometime ago we used to give a grant to the Royal Canadian Legion. Three or four years ago, we received a letter stating that they declined this grant. They said they really wanted to be an independent organization, able to advocate to us without the perception of a potential conflict of interest as a result of that grant, although very modest.
Having said that, because the issue is very important, the challenge to us is to find the resources. We in the department are in the midst of wanting to find an innovative approach. The only reason I cannot share it with you — and I wish I could — is that in relationship to one's colleagues at the cabinet table one does not like to be seen as a hero because he or she may have thought of an idea until it has been vetted among them. I would rather do it the quiet way. At the end of the day, our objective is to achieve something for the kind of goal.
Certainly, the issue continues to seize us. As a consequence of this, we in the department have been thinking of an imaginative and innovative approach. Because it is in the very formative stage of our thinking, I should pause here. However, should I feel the need for your support, I will not hesitate to call on that support.
Senator Wiebe: Part of the problem that out there is that a lot of these memorials and cenotaphs were built after the Second World War and the Korean War. There were built by legions and communities that were larger in size. We have to take into account that even our rural communities are getting smaller and smaller, because people are moving out of those communities into cities. Hence, it is becoming more and more difficult to keep them maintained.
In my mind, VAC's responsibility is to look after veterans. In terms of memorials, would they not be better looked after by the Department of Heritage? Given that the cenotaphs across the country are part of our heritage, possibly the funds required to look after these sites could better be taken from the Department of Heritage than from the Department of Veteran Affairs.
Mr. Pagtakhan: The challenge will then be faced with the Minister of Heritage. However, ultimately there is only one federal government.
Senator Wiebe: There is only one taxpayer. It all comes from the same place.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I remember the Valiants monument project seizing your committee at one time. It required an exchange of correspondence between the two ministers, an exchange of friendly words across the aisle, to the point that later on I had to put it in memo to be clear that, in fact, it was the responsibility of the department. We resolved that issue amicably. The presentation was made here to your committee on that very issue.
While I appreciate your recommendation, Senator Wiebe, the Department of Veteran Affairs is the lead department in the Canada Remembers program. In fact, we are in charge. Sometimes, it is very difficult, certainly for me, individually, not as a minister, when we speak of memorials about veterans, about war, although we know it is part of our heritage, we relate it far more quickly to Veterans Affairs Canada.
Hence, as we try to pursue an approach to this in the most imaginative way we can — and certainly suggestions like this are very important — the idea is how we can really effect what we all desire, to see that the cenotaphs around the country are maintained in the best of integrity.
In response to questions from constituencies, because I have to respond, I try to remind them not that the government has forgotten about that, and I am forthright with them about fiscal resources, but to indicate that we have in Ottawa the National War Memorial.
Nonetheless, I would appreciate any suggestions you might have in terms of how to address the fiscal issue on this point.
Senator Wiebe: Over the last number of years, I have had an opportunity to attend a lot of reunions of our men and women who have served in the number of wars. Each and every year, of course, those reunion numbers get smaller and smaller. For health and travel concerns, it becomes much more difficult. What happens when there are no longer any more reunions?
I had an opportunity to attend the Juno Beach ceremonies. We had a number of veterans there. Some came on their own; the Department of Veterans Affairs sponsored others. I found that there was a great need for being able to respond to the veterans' needs as the changes took place. For example, it is not possible to have everything running on time. As a result, many of our veterans had to stand for long periods of time. It was a terribly hot day. A lot of them had to stand and/or sit in the heat. This was draining on them. As well, consideration had not been given to ensuring ample supplies of water during this heat. As well, at some of the gravesites that we visited there were no toilets. As I grow older, I notice the importance of locating the toilets.
I am laying this out because I think those are things the department should look at when planning any future events. In the planning of an event, it may be that the veterans will only be in the sun for 15 minutes. However, if there are traffic problems or other snags, the veteran may be in the sun for longer than that. These kinds of variables must be taken into consideration when future trips in which we take veterans along are being planned.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I cannot agree more with you, Senator Wiebe. Certainly, considering the age of the veterans — and we know from medical teachings, in fact from all teachings, that the call of nature happens far more frequently as we age.
In part, I can say that we have learned from every experience, which is why, in Korea, for example, we were much more proactive.
Perhaps my colleagues wish to comment on this.
Mr. Jack Stagg, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs Canada: We are just now in the process of planning the sixtieth anniversary, as the minister mentioned in his opening remarks. I had the opportunity yesterday of meeting with the advisory committee chaired by General Rohmer.
The Chairman: Could I ask you to indicate who or what groups are represented on this advisory committee?
Mr. Stagg: We have an advisory committee that has representatives of the three major veterans association. DND is there as a resource group. We are there as a resource secretariat, and the Prime Minister has asked General Rohmer if he would be kind enough to chair this committee and provide advice to us as the department planning the sixtieth anniversary D-Day celebrations.
A number of people who were there last year, veterans and others, have given us a list similar to yours, and with some other suggestions on it. We are going to take special care this year to make sure that we have the proper supplies.
I was there last year, and I know, in part because veterans had to arrive earlier than others and also because it was a warm day, that veterans did have to spend perhaps too long out in the open. One of our sponsors provided umbrellas. We provided half a busload of water. However, perhaps it was not enough to go around.
We will take considerable care this year. We learn from each one of these pilgrimages. We have coaches that are available with washroom facilities. We will be depending upon the French government to give us some assistance this year. There is going to be a great deal more happening around the sixtieth anniversary than there was last, I know. The French have created a kind of commission responsible for coordinating this, and General Rohmer is meeting with that commission in the next two to three weeks.
We have a list of these things, as well, where the French can assist us, in terms of transport, shuttling people around, making sure people are comfortable and not having people out in the elements or the sun any longer than they absolutely have to be for the commemorative ceremonies and comradeship.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I suppose that, if needed, we would ask those who have experience in big event organization, even from the private sector, to anticipate basic needs, and this we will explore as well. Thank you for reminding us.
Senator Wiebe: My second question, and final one, I hope, deals with the scenario I first posed. What happens when there are no longer any reunions? What happens when veterans, because of declining health, are no longer able to attend these events?
I hope the government puts a tremendous amount of effort in continuing these pilgrimages and that it puts a tremendous amount of effort in bringing young people — and by young people I mean school-age children — to these commemorative services. It is through the youth that this legacy can be kept alive.
The important thing, and where we get the most value, is that when these young people get back to their schools they talk about their experiences to their peers. These young people find it much more interesting to hear these stories from their peers, than from a veteran or from you or I. It is vital that the number of students we take over be dramatically increased.
I should like to suggest that we consider, when we recommend the youth who will go, young people who are grand nieces and/or nephews of soldiers who lie buried overseas. Doing so will probably provide a first-time opportunity for a family member to visit the veteran's gravesite. In my mind, an overseas gravesite is a pretty lonely place, for a soldier who has fallen during one of our wars. Who knows, there may be some grandchildren or great grandchildren — maybe not many of them but more so of nieces and nephews. This would have a tremendous impact on the family at home and on the children in the schools who are the recipients of the stories by their peers.
Mr. Pagtakhan: I had indicated earlier, we have engaged the youth. In fact, in Vimy and Korea, we have done that.
You had made the suggestion that we should increase the number even more, and certainly I will explore and discuss that with the department, through the deputy, in due time, so that we can attend to the very issue. I think you have raised a very important issue. In other words, at the rate that we are doing it, are we ready for the change when the change has to happen — when the attendance of veterans is no longer be feasible in person.
In addition, with respect to your suggestion of engaging grandnieces and grandnephews, we should also explore that. The Veterans Charter was a post-war federal government program to provide opportunity with security for veterans. This is viewed by Canadians as being very positive, not trying to be selective, in the sense that we are not including others, but respecting and appreciating the very role, in this instance, grandparents and mothers and relatives discharged in the service of their country. We will pursue this very issue. I think this is a new element, and perhaps as we increase the youth numbers we can focus on this.
I am thinking aloud, in response to your question, but certainly I appreciate the suggestion and we will look into this. I am sure Mr. Stagg and Mr. Mercer will take this under immediate consideration.
Mr. Stagg: I attended my first pilgrimage when we went to South Korea. We decided to bring along 12 young people. These youth were chosen through the Encounters with Canada program, which is a Terry Fox Foundation program. They focused in that couple of week down here on veterans and their experiences over the years.
It was wonderful having those 12 people along. At the end of the eight or ten days we spent in South Korea, there was a closing ceremony, where each of the young people got up and talked about how important it was for them to be along and what they had learned. It was absolutely moving to have seen their response. On the first or second night after we arrived in South Korea, I asked them as a group how they were getting along. They said that they were not very happy, and I asked what the problem was. They told me they were not getting enough exposure to the veterans. They felt they were a bit isolated, that they wanted to dig in and help, to participate, and we certainly made that happen over the following six or eight days. It was a very worthwhile experience.
As a department, each time we plan something that deals with commemoration, we should ask ourselves whether enough youth are involved, whether we are involving youth in a meaningful way.
You are right, senator. When these young people go back to their communities and talk about their experience, it is much more effective than a kit or a poster, although these things help as well to remind people of sacrifice. However, hearing stories from one's peers is really important. That has to be a key element to our strategy.
We have to ask ourselves every time we do something like this whether are doing something effective to get youth interest, commitment, involvement and engagement. I believe that is very important.
Mr. Robert Mercer, Executive Director, Department of Veterans Affairs Canada: Senator, I think your question is a very timely one. We are managing a commemoration/remembrance program in the department that is going through a rapid transition. The transition is there because of the question about what happens when veterans are no longer able to attend ceremonies, no longer able to carry the responsibility of speaking to school children and so on.
Three years ago, we conducted what I believe is the most comprehensive study ever undertaken in this country on the subject of remembrance. Canadians told us all kinds of things about the future. Veterans, in particular, spoke out about pilgrimages. They said the time is rapidly coming when they will not be attending pilgrimages and as such want to see a gradual transition of youth involvement.
We started that with the eighty-fifth anniversary of battle of Vimy Ridge. We took 13 students, one from each province and territory, to France for a period of 10 days. We spent $250,000 to connect them electronically to their schools across Canada. That was the larger-scale effort by the department to move towards a transition to youth.
The other very significant aspect of this, which came through as a result of us knowing more about the demographics with respect to veterans, is that we start to put more of an in-Canada focus on our remembrance work. Therein is the rationale for moving more vigorously towards unveiling a program that engages citizens and communities across Canada.
Senator Atkins: I know that one of the big challenges is the selection of young people. While it would put a lot of work on your plate, I am wondering whether a form of essay contest could be incorporated across the schools in the country. Participants would be required to, say, address certain parameters, such as talking about any heritage they might have with a former veteran, what they feel about the country and why they would like to pursue an opportunity to go on a pilgrimage. I think you might be surprised by the number of people who would be interested in that kind of a promotion among high school and junior high students.
I want to congratulate you, Mr. Minister, because at your last appearance here we talked about the Forum of Young Canadians, which is a program involving four week-long forums in the spring of the year. There are four sessions. These programs involve some really prime young people who are interested in coming to Ottawa and learning. As you continue to do that, those young people will be your goodwill ambassadors in high schools. They are coming from high schools right across the country.
So, while you are involved with Encounters with Canada, I would also recommend the Forum of Young Canadians, if you can work into their program.
I was at the fifty-fifth anniversary of Juno, the pilgrimage. My guess is that the sixtieth anniversary will be an awesome experience. We have talked about how our veterans are getting older and how we are including young people.
I appreciate that you do not make the decision on what parliamentarians are selected, but you do determine how many from each caucus are included in the trip. I should like more opportunities for caucus to be included in these pilgrimages. Members of Parliament do circulate in the communities and have the opportunity to speak in the House and in the Senate on behalf of veterans. It just seems to me that members of caucus are an important ingredient in the mix of people.
How can you transport these people? It is becoming a bigger problem for Veterans Affairs I assume to get the kind of aircraft and the things that are important to make life easy for people to make these pilgrimages. With respect to Juno, the sixtieth anniversary celebrations are you going to be able to accommodate aircraft for that trip?
Mr. Pagtakhan: I should like to thank you for your comments, senator, and for encouraging words about expanding the vehicles and avenues to which we can engage the youth, certainly the Forum for Young Canadians. In my presentation I talked about Cadets Canada being involved, in addition to Encounters with Canada.
Again, anything that would enhance this particular youth engagement would be welcome.
With respect to your observation about involving more members of Parliament, I did raise the same issue myself vis- à-vis the pilgrimage of about a year ago. As you said, members of Parliament are there in the community.
We have been asked by many veterans organizations, when they see many of us, why there are so many MPs but not quite enough veterans. Hence, we try to balance that image. In the media, as you can see, all of us are subject to that kind of perception. What we can do is revisit the issue in a sensitive way.
The media, unfortunately, sometimes, by omission, have forgotten the value of members of Parliament, both of the House of Commons and of the Senate. We are here. That is why I continue to believe in the nobility of this career. My adrenaline gets circulating in higher levels when there is an indictment of the very nobility of politics. I think we should continue to visit that, perhaps, again, in a measured way, so that we do not incur this sudden kind of commentary.
As to how we transport, in fact, we faced this very issue the last time we went to Korea. We were in discussions with the Department of National Defence regarding our trip to South Korea, but the circumstances arose that we had to transport our troops to Afghanistan that very July. In the three weeks coming up to the trip, the deputy had make those changes, because the priority of course was to transport our troops.
I would ask the deputy to add to my comments on this very issue of transport, or to any other issues that Senator Atkins raised.
Mr. Stagg: Just on the transport, as the minister said, we had asked DND to put aside some transport for us when we went to South Korea, but they were not able to provide that to us in part because of other priorities.
My view is that I do not think that we should count on that. I think we should continue requesting transport assistance from DND, and I know they will give it to us whenever they can, and they have told us that. However, I do not think we should be caught without transportation and without plans in advance.
Hence, my view is that we should probably make commercial arrangements, as best we can and as ahead of time as we can. If in fact transport becomes available to us through DND, we would probably opt for that and withdraw from the commercial transport.
We need to have an alternative plan upfront now, because our air buses have gotten more busy, with the larger and greater activities that DND has been engaged in. for the security of our veterans, to ensure they have transport, we should probably have a plan B upfront, which I think we will do, as a practice, from now on.
Senator Atkins: My concern is in view of what the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence has found out. In terms of priorities, I would not expect that the pilgrimage in the eyes of DND would be considered a top priority for them. That is the worry. I think it impacts on the decision that veterans, as they get older assess, make in terms of whether they want to go or not. That will become a greater concern as time goes on.
The only other point I want to make concerns parliamentarians. I have been on a number of these pilgrimages. I can tell you that the veterans were amazed with the parliamentarians because in many cases they had never had any experience with them. They did not know what they did. They did not know that they had friends in Parliament. I still send Christmas cards to people who I connected with, and I even hear from them on certain occasions. I just do not think that it is something that we should minimize.
I know this is looking beyond, but we are coming up to the big anniversaries of D-Day and VE-Day. You have picked General Rohmer to chair the committee, who is a very good selection. However, is anyone looking beyond that to those celebrations, because they will be pretty significant in focusing on the community perception of Canada's involvement in the wars.
Mr. Pagtakhan: The committee has engaged the major veterans organizations, so it has their input. The general, of course, as a veteran and given his military history, is the right in the middle of those issues. Of course, he gives advice to the department.
I would ask the deputy to describe what else we are doing in tandem with the committee.
Mr. Stagg: In our advisory committee meeting yesterday, there was discussion of General Rohmer's plan to go to France. He will stop in Britain to talk to the U.K. about their plans for next June.
The advisory committee has urged the general if he would not mind also enquiring both in France and the U.K. about the larger plan for the following year.
I know that we also have some other work going on in the department, which Mr. Mercer will explain.
Mr. Mercer: In addition to the sixtieth anniversary of the Normandy campaign next year, there is a sixtieth anniversary of the Italian campaign. In 2005, we have the sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of Holland, and that in conjunction with the sixtieth anniversary of the end of the Second Word War. I would suggest that particular event is something for a very special focus, perhaps one of the last opportunities we will have as a government to express our appreciation to veterans. Beyond that, we have worked on a cycle of five-year anniversaries with respect to events in Europe.
My guess is that the last major pilgrimages with large contingents of veterans will take place in the year 2005. Beyond that, we will focus on youth-in-Canada ceremonies, recognizing, with respect to the age of veterans, that many veterans will not be there to participate. We will not be going on veteran-led pilgrimages to battle sites in Europe in 2010 or 2015 unless something dramatically changes.
That is the reason for the earlier question regarding what we will do when veterans are no longer able to attend ceremonies, what we will do when they are no longer able to participate in pilgrimages. The plan is to move toward the school children in this country to carry the legacy.
Senator Atkins: I will add a point about VE-Day. Most of the celebrations would be right on this continent and not overseas.
The Chairman: I want to reinforce what Senators Wiebe and Atkins, in particular, have been emphasizing about the participation of the youth. I went on the pilgrimage to Italy in 1999. A good number of young people came along, cadets and others. Like Senator Atkins, I am still in touch with a lot of those people and the veterans.
As I recall, the ceremonies at Juno last year were televised back to Canada. Did you ever find out what kind of audience you drew, and it is something you would want to repeat or enhance this year?
Mr. Mercer: I do know that this event drew a fairly large audience across the country because there were many hours of coverage on the part of the CBC.
The opening of the Juno Beach Centre was an effort of a small group of veterans who did something quite incredible with respect to the building of the centre, the opening ceremonies and so on. It was not a government-sponsored event. We did not monitor the reaction of the media. The Juno Beach Centre may have some useful information on that aspect. This was not a Government of Canada event, although we did contribute more than $3 million overall to this project.
The Chairman: I am glad you made that point because that is what I wanted to mention next. This is not a criticism; it is a statement of fact. It was apparent to me and I think to other senators at Juno Beach last year that more than one person was in charge or more than one department or group were in charge. Can I take it that the Department of Veterans Affairs will be in charge at the sixtieth anniversary celebrations?
Mr. Pagtakhan: Yes, with the advice of this council's help, the department will be in charge. I made the same observation. I would only add, Mr. Chairman, that my daughter-in-law and my grand-daughter did see grandpa in the background.
The Chairman: That leads to another observation, which is that it is not all bad doing more on this continent, because through the policies of successive governments, we have managed to hide the military in this country. We do not see them the way they do in other countries. Out of sight regrettably is often out of mind. Whether active serving members of the military or veterans, putting them on display in one way or another in this country is a very notable objective and one we should pursue.
As a subset of that idea, I wonder if the Department of National Defence could encourage serving members of the Armed Forces to make more visits to schools. If only people of a certain age show up in the schools, it is another world to school kids, whereas if someone closer to their age visits them, they relate more easily and the impact of the visit is probably even greater.
Second — and perhaps this relates to the fact there were two organizations involved in putting on that magnificent show last year at Juno Beach — do you have a sponsorship policy? As you recall, minister, there was a prominent sponsor of umbrellas and things like that at Juno Beach last year. Is that something only a private organization would seek? Will there be private sponsors involved in Juno Beach this year, next year?
Mr. Pagtakhan: We encourage private participation. We have not discussed this. I would suggest that sometimes there is a limit to who can be involved if potentially it could add to the complexity of organizing an event. I would ask the deputy if he has any remarks to add on this issue.
With respect to your comment about members of the Armed Forces visiting schools, I will certainly convey that message to the Minister of National Defence.
Mr. Stagg: On the question of partnerships, there are probably a number of partnerships we could forge to help us. They do not necessarily have to be commercial in nature. We could encourage educational groups and others to participate in some way, whether it is helping us choose students who might participate or helping with educational materials. There is a variety of things we could do without necessarily entering into commercial partnerships.
The Chairman: I would encourage you to do so.
Minister, I was heartened to hear your optimism with respect to the extension of the VIP program. I think you would agree that it is unacceptable to have two classes of people, those who receive VIP benefits for the remainder of their lives and those who do not for no other reason than because of an arbitrary date. I am heartened that you and the Prime Minister have turned your attention to this matter. All of us hope that we will receive confirmation soon. Do not be worried about retroactivity. You overcame that problem in the Major Henwood case, and you received nothing but plaudits for it. Good luck to you, and I can only encourage you.
Our committee will be visiting Sunnybrook Hospital this Friday. I understand that you have taken a number of steps to improve the situation there and are to be commemorated for having done so. Is there anything you would like us to pay attention to during our visit?
Mr. Pagtakhan: Just let us know about your visit. We are very pleased with what is going on there. Certainly, we are willing to listen to much more.
I would also remind honourable senators about Bill C-50, the veterans bill that will attend to urgent needs of veterans, such as the definition of members of the Armed Forces from the point of view of the War Veterans Allowance Act, former prisoners of war and the Education Assistance Program. Any help your committee could provide to facilitate the passage of this bill and would be very much appreciated.
The Chairman: Minister, I am speaking on the bill this afternoon and will urge a speedy passage.
The committee adjourned.