Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Foreign Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence, February 4, 2004
OTTAWA, Wednesday, February 4, 2004
The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs met this day at 4:02 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Mr. François Michaud, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, as clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Andreychuk: I nominate Senator Stollery for the chairmanship.
Mr. Michaud: Are there any other nominations?
Senator Corbin: I move that nominations be closed.
Mr. Michaud: It is moved by Andreychuk that Senator Stollery take the chair.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Peter Stollery (Chairman) in the Chair.
The Chairman: I propose Senator Di Nino for deputy chair of the committee.
Senator Corbin: I so move.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 3 on our agenda refers to the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and the Honourable Senator Corbin and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule a hearing.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Printing of proceedings is the next item on our agenda. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Graham that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 5 refers to the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Corbin that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings to authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item on our agenda refers to the financial report. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Di Nino that the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104.
Mr. Michaud: That report is in respect of the expenses.
The Chairman: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 7 relates to research staff. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Graham that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign research staff to the committee; that the chair be authorized to seek authority from the Senate to engage the services of technical and clerical personnel as may be necessary for the purposes of the committee's examination and consideration of such bills, subject matter of bills and estimates as are referred to it; that the subcommittee —
Senator Di Nino: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. Senator Graham does not have a copy of the motions.
The Chairman: We will rectify that.
— et cetera; and that the chair on behalf of the committee direct the research staff for the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries and draft reports.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Authority to commit funds and certify accounts is agenda item number 8. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk that, pursuant to section 32 of the Financial Administration Act, the authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee and that, pursuant to section 34 of the Financial Administration Act and guideline 3:05 of appendix II of the Rules of the Senate, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the committee.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Item number 9 refers to travel. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Corbin that the committee empower the subcommittee on agenda and procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Designation of members travelling on committee business is agenda item number 10. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Graham that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure (1) be authorized to determine whether any member of the committee is on official business for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the senators' attendance policy published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998, and (2) consider any member of the committee to be on official business if that member is attending a function, event or meeting related to the work of the committee or making a presentation related to the work of the committee.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Travelling and living expenses of witnesses is item number 11. It is moved by Senator Di Nino that, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next item is number 12, electronic media coverage of public meetings. It is moved by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk that the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of the hearings and that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Is it agreed, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: Time slot for regular meetings is agenda item number 13. We have completed our basic motions, as I understand it. We know the time slot. Honourable senators have it in front of them. The committee will meet on Tuesdays, but not before 5:00 p.m., and on Wednesdays, but not before 3:30 p.m.
Any other business?
Senator Corbin: I have a question of clarification. What is the quorum in this committee?
Mr. Michaud: Four.
The Chairman: Four.
Senator Corbin: Where is that stated?
Mr. Michaud: In the Rules of the Senate.
Senator Di Nino: That is four, including at least one member of the opposition; right?
Mr. Michaud: It is four.
The Chairman: We do not take evidence without a member of the opposition. We just passed that rule.
Senator Corbin: It should be spelled out in any case.
The Chairman: We just spelled that out.
Senator Corbin: We do not take evidence without a member of the opposition.
The Chairman: We just passed that in our rules, did we not?
Mr. Michaud: The quorum is four. That is in the rules.
The Chairman: Quorum is four. But we passed —
Mr. Michaud: We can receive evidence without a quorum.
The Chairman: We can receive evidence without quorum, but we must have a member of the opposition.
Senator Corbin: That implies that, in the quorum, the opposition is also counted. That is the implication.
Senator Di Nino: Can you clarify that? I agree with Senator Corbin. I thought a meeting could not be conducted unless a member of the opposition was present.
The Chairman: A meeting can be conducted. In practice, we do not.
Senator Graham: That has been the practice.
The Chairman: The practice has been that we do not. Circumstances could arise where a meeting would have to be held without a member of the opposition. The circumstances could exist, but in my time, it has never happened.
Senator Andreychuk: It has not happened in this committee, but it has happened.
The Chairman: In other committees, and at different times, depending on numbers. For example, say a member of the opposition cannot get here for reasons of numbers, not because of anything else.
Senator Di Nino: I understand that. Then the house must have different rules, because there are different rules in the house.
The Chairman: Do you remember what the house rule is?
Senator Di Nino: I suspect that it is correct. One of my colleagues had an experience that indicates to me that they need to have at least a member of the opposition present.
Senator Corbin: My experience over 35 years is that the committee is very much, to a great degree, master of its proceedings, and we should indicate that, as part of our understanding on this committee, a quorum includes the official opposition.
The Chairman: Yes, I could not agree more, with the observation, as you say, that committees are in charge of their own rules. For example, say there was a circumstance where the chairman, whoever that would be, would consult with a member of the opposition, and a member of the opposition said, "Look, we just cannot do it," and it was not a controversial item. You would not want to stop the committee from being able to sit to consider some item.
Senator Graham: Particularly to hear witnesses.
The Chairman: Yes. Well, witnesses, we have just passed. Our practice has been quite generous.
Senator Di Nino: I am reacting to Senator Corbin's question. I think it is a good one, particularly, as you said, because of the numbers. I do not expect in the next three months — at least — our number to increase. After that, we do not know.
Senator Corbin: I have another sticky point. I would rather clear these matters up than be faced with a situation down the road.
Senator Graham: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. What was the conclusion on the discussion we just had?
Senator Corbin: The conclusion is that the quorum includes the official opposition.
Senator Graham: There was a little side bar discussion going on that suggested — and I beg your indulgence — that in the event that the opposition found it impossible to attend at a particular time because of their numbers and because of travel and all these other eventualities or possible eventualities and an important witness was available on a particular day and it was important to the committee that the committee hear that witness, it may be that, with the agreement of the opposition —
The Chairman: We would not want to exclude that.
Senator Graham: — the committee could hear the witness.
Senator Andreychuk: I think we have to go back to the rules for quorum and for having the opposition for taking evidence. The question, then, is this: Can the committee overrule what our rules say? Would we not have to get the consent of the chamber to hear witnesses with only one side with the consent of the opposition? Maybe we can look into that.
The Chairman: Senator Graham makes a very good point. If we said the quorum included a member of the opposition, what are the implications of that?
Senator Di Nino: We cannot have a meeting unless the opposition is present.
The Chairman: You cannot have a meeting unless the opposition is present; however, there may be circumstances when you do want to have a meeting without the opposition, after consultation.
Senator Di Nino: I agree with that. I also agree with Senator Andreychuk. If the rules specifically state certain things, we better not run afoul of the rules; otherwise, we could be in trouble. We should check it and make sure that it is what we want to do as a committee. If we have to get some dispensation or change of rule, then we will work at it that way.
The intent is clear that (a) we will certainly conduct business with at least the official opposition present but that (b) in certain circumstances if the official circumstances could not be present, with the consultation of that official opposition, I agree that the committee should continue its affairs.
Senator Corbin: The other point is with respect to item number 5, authorization to hold meetings when quorum is not present. It reads: "...provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present." I would presume that that does not include the chair. It is the chair plus two other members, one from the opposition and somebody else. If not, we should clarify it.
We all remember that Senator Nolin, when he was doing his drug study, held a meeting where he was the only member present, and there was a high official from Mexico or somewhere to speak about the whole thing. That made bad press.
The Chairman: I cannot imagine myself holding a meeting and being the only person there.
Senator Corbin: Let someone do some research on that and report back to us.
The Chairman: We will look into it and we will report back.
Senator Corbin: Right now, we are working well. We know each other very well. Down the road, things might be different though.
Senator Sparrow: Mr. Chairman, I could possibly lend myself to switch with the opposition for one day, but that is all. That is all I could stand.
Senator Di Nino: Here's $50.
Senator Grafstein: Don't give it back.
Senator Di Nino: Give it to the church. I will send you a tax receipt.
Senator Grafstein: Don't say that!
Senator Di Nino: He has got to join us for one day, though.
Senator Graham: The opposition would have to accept you.
Senator Andreychuk: We've crossed that.
Senator Grafstein: You will find him a very compatible companion.
The Chairman: Order.
Senator Sparrow: I am going to give this to my wife's charity; they will appreciate it.
The Chairman: Honourable senators, I have a couple of very short items, namely, the motions. There was a meeting earlier, but no great decisions were made. Senator Graham and Senator Corbin may be able to help me with this because we were in the room together. It was my understanding that everything that was on the Order Paper previously would be put back on the Order Paper by an agreement between the leaders. This is how I understood it yesterday. I may be wrong, but that is how I heard it. I am now told that that may not be the case because there has been a disagreement. Therefore, I will give notice of these two motions because I thought this was automatic.
These motions are nothing more than the references that we had in the last session. Apparently, I just have to redo them myself.
Senator Graham: Yes, you do.
The Chairman: Does that make sense?
Senator Graham: Yes.
The Chairman: Until I have those motions adopted, I cannot go for the budget for this committee. It is urgent that I get the notice in tomorrow because I cannot move the motions until either Friday or Tuesday, which is not good because of the time constraints that we have.
These are the motions.
Senator Di Nino: I so move.
Senator Graham: You have not changed them?
The Chairman: No. As far as I know, they are exactly the same. The only change is the name of the session. It is the third session and not the second session.
Senator Graham: You are referring to a session of Parliament; correct?
The Chairman: Exactly. I do not believe there is anything else.
Senator Corbin: Under item number of the motions we adopted, you were asking about rule 104.
The Chairman: Yes.
Senator Corbin: Rule 104 concerns our committee reporting the expenses incurred during the previous sessions back to the Senate. Do we have that report?
Mr. Michaud: Yes.
Senator Corbin: We should move that today. I notice that the Rules Committee already tabled its report under rule 104.
Mr. Michaud: It is adopted.
The Chairman: Did we adopt that?
Mr. Michaud: Yes.
Senator Corbin: We have not seen the report, though. We have to see the report.
Mr. Michaud: No problem.
The Chairman: I will do this tomorrow. We have to report it to the Senate, do we not?
Senator Corbin: If you adopt it today, you can present it tomorrow.
The Chairman: If you would like to take a look at this.
Senator Grafstein: I so move. Call for the vote.
The Chairman: That is it.
Senator Di Nino: It is agreeing to the expenditures of the previous session.
Senator Corbin: Who certifies the correctness of this?
The Chairman: Senator Corbin is wearing his chartered accountant's hat today. The clerk is watching it very closely.
The only other item of business that I wanted to bring to your attention on the record was the fact that the clerk, Peter Berg and myself are working to complete the Mexican part of our reference, the NAFTA part.
The last I heard, a couple of hours ago, it looks like it will be March 1. Some honourable senators may already know this, but it is useful to have it on the record. The quicker I get these motions adopted in the Senate, the quicker I can get to the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration to get our budget, which I am told we should get.
Unless there is something else, I really do not have anything left for this meeting. Am I correct?
Senator Di Nino: I move the adjournment.
Senator Corbin: When do we meet next?
The Chairman: We cannot meet before next Tuesday.
Senator Corbin: You need your order of reference.
The Chairman: I need my order of reference, and I will try to give notice of motion tomorrow and move it on Tuesday. On Tuesday, we should be ready for a meeting and talk turkey.
The committee adjourned.