Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 6 - Evidence - Morning meeting
OTTAWA, Monday, March 7 2005
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day, at 9:33 a.m., to study and to report from time to time on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the act.
Honourable Eymard G. Corbin (Chairman) in the Chair.
[Translation]
The Chairman: Dear colleagues, I commend you for being here today, this morning, despite the weather. I would also like to commend our witnesses and members of the public who are with us this morning.
I would like to call to your attention the presence of four political science students from the University of Ottawa, who are here to watch us work and listen to this morning's proceedings.
At our first meeting, I stated that we would not be examining French immersion or bilingual schools. It is because we have deliberately agreed to concentrate on the education provided to the francophone minority by following its logical progression from early childhood to college and university.
Our first witnesses this morning represent the Fédération culturelle canadienne française. They are Ms. Paulette Gagnon, President, Mr. Pierre Bourbeau, General Director, Mr. Marc Haentjens, General Director of the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français, and Mr. Benoît Henry, General Director of the Alliance nationale de l'industrie musicale.
Before we begin, I would like to quote the Mahé decision, which is a prime example of the case law as it applies to section 23. I am quoting from École et droits fondamentaux, a recent book by Paul T. Clarke and Pierre Foucher, Institut français, University of Regina, 2005.
For the first time, the Supreme Court of Canada provides a real theory on this section. It is the linguistic duality that becomes the main general objective that explains clause 23.
The author of this text quotes the Supreme Court:
The general purpose of section 23 is clear: it is to preserve and promote the two official languages of Canada, and their respective cultures, by ensuring that each language flourishes, as far as possible, in provinces where it is not spoken by the majority of the population.
This quote is from Mahé v. Alberta, the Supreme Court report, page 342. ``In Mahé the Court went even further by saying'' — and I quote the judge:
My reference to cultures is significant: it is based on the fact that any broad guarantee of language rights, especially in the context of education, cannot be separated from a concern for the culture associated with the language. Language is more than a mere means of communication, it is part and parcel of the identity and culture of the people speaking it.
As I said, Ms. Gagnon is President of the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française. She is from Hearst, Ontario. She went to school in Northern Ontario and, since 1996, she has been in charge of Franco-Ontarian programs with the Ontario Arts Council. Towards the end of the 1990s, she was Director General of La Nouvelle Scène, a theatre centre founded by four Ottawa theatre companies, where she took up the challenge to create and operate the centre. In 2003, she ended a two-year term with the National Arts Centre French theatre in order to become, with enthusiasm and conviction, the President of the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française.
Mr. Pierre Bourbeau is the general director. He is from Quebec and has spent 15 years in western Canada, serving francophone communities in Alberta and the Yukon.
As general director of the Association franco-yukonaisse, he helped in creating the recently opened Centre de la Francophonie. On numerous occasions, he was part of groups negotiating Canada community agreements between Yukon and the Department of Canadian Heritage. He has also worked as a consultant providing strategic planning services. He accepted the challenge to become general director of the FCCF in September 2004.
Mr. Marc Haentjens is the General Director of the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français. He is a graduate of the Hautes Études Commerciales school of management in Paris, and has been working for some 20 years in the Canadian francophone environment as a facilitator, researcher and consultant. In the latter capacity, since 1985, he has undertaken a number of studies and has represented a number of public and community organizations, particularly in the area of arts and culture. In past years, he has on numerous occasions represented the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française and many other national organizations such as the Association des théâtres francophones du Canada and the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français. On behalf of the arts and culture table, he was also responsible for a strategic planning exercise for which he developed a planning template to meet the needs of cultural organizations. Since January 2005, he has been the General Director for the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens- français.
Finally, Mr. Benoît Henry, General Director of the Alliance nationale de l'industrie musicale (ANIM), studied political science at the University of Montreal. He is deeply involved in the cultural development of the francophone community on Prince Edward Island. He was General Director of the Prince Edward Island Federation from 1977 to 1999 before becoming General Director of the Carrefour de l'Île Saint-Jean, a position that he held for four years. He is also a founding member of the Charlottetown Acadian Festival and a member of the Charlottetown Arts and Culture Task Force. Besides all of the above, from 2001 to 2004, he also sat on the implementation committee to develop Quebec's policy on Acadian and francophone communities.
That is the group who will be appearing before us this morning. Ms. Gagnon or Mr. Bourbeau, I do not know which one of you will be making the presentation, but I would ask you to please begin.
Ms. Paulette Gagnon, President, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: Honourable senators, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. I would first like to thank you for providing us with an opportunity to introduce the research-action on the language-culture-education link undertaken by the FCCF last year. There has been a great deal of interest expressed in this study since it was published in the spring of 2004 and it has since then been a source of reference for a number of stakeholders, both in education as well as in the cultural sector. We will have an opportunity to discuss this further when we answer your questions.
The arts and culture and education sectors are often considered to be parallel worlds. However, all would agree that culture and education are closely related and complementary. This closeness is even more obvious in our communities. Culture and education represent two pillars to defend and, more particularly, to promote our language. The institutions that they support — schools, artistic undertakings and cultural centres — are the main areas where identity is expressed and affirmed.
It is with this in mind that the Arts and Culture Round Table of National Organizations asked the Fédération culturelle to study the relation between language, culture and education in a minority francophone environment.
I witnessed this relationship yet again, a few days ago, when I attended the annual graduates' review at École secondaire De La Salle, here, in Ottawa. My daughter attends that school. It was standing room only in the recently renovated auditorium. Some 700 parents and friends of the students were in attendance. In three hours, we were treated to 20 intelligent performances that were carefully produced with a clearly modern, even experimental bent. Acting, music, song, mime, dance, visual arts and poetry followed one after the other in rapid succession. It was terrific. The show was produced by more than 60 students who devoted many hours to rehearsals and production. And they succeeded on all counts. This was a life experience that, for them, is priceless; they overcame a number of difficulties, and what is even more important, they gave themselves a voice to communicate their vision of the world to their loved ones.
They are now more strongly attached to our community, because they now know that they truly belong. We applauded them loudly and through them, because they expressed something with which we could identify, we also felt that we belong to the francophone community here. Experiences such as these are what the life of a student is made of, and are something that allow him to develop a cultural identity that will follow him throughout his life.
Back to our study. I would now like to ask Pierre Bourbeau to explain it to you, after which we can have an exchange and discuss the content.
Mr. Pierre Bourbeau, General Director, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: I will be making a PowerPoint presentation. My aim is to summarize, as best I can, the content of this study which, I believe, you have already received. It is the document with the apple green cover. You have the study as well as an executive summary in both French and English. This is the second edition of the study, which was published in December 2004. The first one, if memory serves, was published in April 2004.
The Chairman: Forgive me for interrupting. Is there anything terribly different between the first and second edition, or is it essentially the same text?
Mr. Bourbeau: It is essentially the same text; some technical adjustments were made to some of the projects, we clarified a few of the project files and the most important change was a project file that had to be withdrawn because, unfortunately, the project did not come to fruition. Those are the two major changes that I can remember off the top of my head.
The Chairman: This does not change the substance of the report?
Mr. Bourbeau: Absolutely not. I will now introduce the study on the relationship between language, culture and education in francophone minority communities.
This study was coordinated by the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française on behalf of the Arts and Culture Round Table of National Organizations. We will tell you who is a member of this round table a little later on. A steering committee approved the study.
One of the aims of the study was to document the importance of the relationship between language, culture and education through documentary and field research. Proposals would then be considered to establish closer and more productive partnerships with the education and arts and culture sectors.
Through the documentary research, we were able to list and summarize existing studies on the relationship between language, culture and education. The document lists some 60 references that were found and summarized. This helped us to identify areas for further research, as follows: the complex nature of the development of a cultural identity — which, as you know, is in itself a very complex issue — the fundamental role of schools in constructing this identity, the benefits of using art in education for the development of the student — there are now studies that prove that arts education helps students to learn — and finally, the growing acceptance of arts and culture in school programs. There are a number of initiatives and it is worth seeing what is taking place in the field.
Our study of the literature has led us to the following conclusions: the provincial and territorial governments as well as the academic community are more aware of the importance of art in education; the importance of the relationship between culture and education has been established and documented by a growing number of researchers — we are becoming more interested in this relationship; finally, the importance of continuing research on the role of schools in a minority environment and their responsibility as it relates to culture and the French language.
Now, turning to the field research, here again there is a list of the initiatives that relate to the relationship between language, culture and education in a minority setting; some 60 initiatives were found. Among them is a selection of pilot projects and success stories; there are 15 described in the study. These projects were used to prepare three groups of project-files.
Initiatives have also come from the education sector, for example, from schools, boards of education, and others. There are also initiatives from the cultural and community areas, cultural centres, provincial arts and culture organizations. Finally, there are initiatives from the arts sector, from arts organizations or the artists themselves, who initiate projects.
Here are some examples of these initiatives: Casselman secondary school merged its arts program with the school education project to introduce an arts concentration.
Saskatchewan's school cultural integration program is an initiative of the Conseil culturel fransaskois, with the support of the Official Minority Languages Office, the OMLO, to coordinate a program for cultural animation in the schools.
The Chairman: Is the OMLO an independent organization? Does it report to the provincial government?
Mr. Bourbeau: It is a provincial government organization. There are other examples from the cultural and community sector, the FESFO OrganiZZaction forums. These are annual training camps provided to secondary school students who organize cultural activities in their schools.
There is a center for musical development, in Alberta. This is a program for musical animation and training of young people, which combines workshops, classes, provincial competitions and other activities.
There are examples from the arts: ArtsSmarts, a national initiative; we have an example here from New Brunswick. If memory serves, it is managed by the CCA, the Canadian Conference of the Arts. In New Brunswick, this program involves artistic projects aimed at enhancing the artist-teacher relationship to stimulate creativity among young people.
UniThéâtre, in Alberta, is a partnership between the theatre and the board of education which provides students with an opportunity to earn credits in dramatic arts, with classes taught by theatre professionals.
The conclusions of the field research are as follows: There are a number of initiatives that can serve as models for other communities. In publishing the study, we hope to make this information available. What is essential for success is a close partnership between the stakeholders and the schools, the arts, and communities.
Finally, a good recommendation would be to foster closer ties that would result in a greater impact for these individual undertakings.
I will now turn to the rationale for the strategic proposals:
There are very concrete questions relating to the relationship between language, culture and education. We must look further in order to, among other things; identify what actions should be taken and what recommendations should be made, so that we can clearly determine the direction that we wish to take. This has brought us to examining the role that the school plays in a community. The education, youth, arts and culture sectors are currently examining these issues.
The outcome may result in a new definition of the role of the school in a minority environment. It can be different, supplementary or expressed in clearer terms, and should fall within two types of performance measurements: Scholastic success or defining one's identity.
What could a French language school look like? A broader education component, more importance given to cultural activities and to arts education, a better use of artistic, cultural and community resources and a greater mobilization of parents and teaching staff.
Here are the expected results: Young people will identify with the francophone culture and their community; education projects will provide greater motivation and be more attractive, resulting in increased enrolment and retention rates in our schools, as well as an increase in the cultural and linguistic vitality of the community.
The challenges lay in the structures, the departments of education and the school boards. The provinces and territories have very complex structures. And financial resources are always limited. In terms of qualifications, teacher training does not necessarily include an artistic and cultural component, which is also a challenge. In terms of the internal culture, we have observed a great deal of resistance by teachers and parents, whose values are based on traditional teaching methods; in other words ``Teach the bases first, before arts and culture.''
There are, however, opportunities in bringing these groups together to examine the issues; a number of sectors are debating the role of the school; certain steps have been taken by boards of education; the project files demonstrate that school boards have already considered programs in arts, culture and education; add to this the renewal of the OLE agreements, which are under negotiation, if I am not mistaken.
The Chairman: As always.
Mr. Bourbeau: There is also the openness shown by the federal government. For example, an Action Plan for Official Languages was launched in March 2003, which will lead to good initiatives in the language, culture, education relationship. Finally, the update of the five-year official languages minority language development plans is now complete. Most official language communities have five-year plans for 2004-2009.
Here are the proposed action plans: raise the awareness of boards of education; establish a common front with national and local school boards; act at the provincial, territorial and federal government levels; act along with other key players in the field of education — for example, faculties and unions; promote pilot initiatives and continue to develop research projects.
This in itself is quite a challenge, with a number of complexities and structures that will have to work together.
The recommendations: disseminate the study's conclusion — that is what the federation has been doing since it was published in March 2004; I have not counted them but I believe we have made at least 15 presentations do date;
Set up an education, arts and youth culture intersectorial task force. I believe that, in answering your questions later on, we will have an opportunity to further explain the second phase that has been undertaken by the federation.
The steering committee still has more work to do. There again, we can tell you what the federation has done in this second phase.
I would like to thank the Department of Canadian Heritage for its financial contribution which allowed us to complete this study; the members of the steering committee, Francis Beaulieu, Gérard Bissonnette, David Bourgeois, Mariette Carrier-Fraser, Annabelle Cloutier, Paulette Gagnon, Nancy Juneau, Anne Lowe, Jean-Luc Racine, Roselyne Roy and André Thibodeau, for their advice and their wisdom. And finally, the ACORD research group as well as Baastel Ltd., the consulting firm that is responsible for this study and represented today by Marc Haentjens, the principal researcher.
The Chairman: Thank you for your presentation. Do any of the other witnesses have something to say?
Ms. Gagnon: I would like to add to what Pierre Bourbeau has said and answer the question: Where are we? We continue to promote research and study. After consulting with the National Federation of francophone School Boards and the Education Roundtable, which brings together a number of national education organizations, it was agreed that the cultural federation should maintain its leadership in this approach and in this examination. We are in the process of setting up a joint committee to bring together some ten stakeholders to prepare for the education summit to be held next June, under the auspices of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires. Around the table will be the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires, the Fédération des jeunes Canadiens français, the ACELF, the ACREF, the Canadian Teachers' Federation, the Cultural Federation, and others. Together we will prepare an action plan to be implemented in coming years, thanks to the common efforts of those involved in education, culture, and French Canadian youth.
In the coming months, this joint committee — which, incidentally, was recommended in this study — will seek to identify the elements of a strategic action plan for the near future, for the purpose of adding a cultural aspect to the education component in our schools.
Senator Léger: As a senator, this has been a real treat, for me, this morning. I often attend meeting on subjects with which I am not familiar, and I learn something. It is wonderful to still be able to learn when one is almost 75 years of age.
Language, culture and education were among my interests long before I became an actress. Happenstance diverted my attention away from education for 18 years. Now, I am active in both areas. We must not forget that the Senate has stolen four years of my time as well.
Ms. Gagnon, your daughter is lucky to have been chosen for the arts program at De La Salle High School. Can you tell me the difference between the arts concentration at De La Salle and at the high school in Casselman?
Ms. Gagnon: I would like to ask Marc Haentjens to answer this question. He is more familiar than I am with the Casselman project.
Mr. Marc Haentjens, Director General of the Regroupement des éditeurs canadiens-français, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française: The Casselman initiative is called Carrefour des arts, with a concept that is similar to the one at De La Salle High School. It is an enriched arts program for interested students.
Senator Léger: Do the students not have to audition to be considered by De La Salle High School?
Mr. Haentjens: There are a number of programs at De La Salle, including a regular one for most of the students, and an enriched arts program for about 200 of the 1,500 students. Only part of the student population is enrolled in that program.
Senator Léger: Only part.
Mr. Haentjens: It is not an arts school. It is a regular high school with an enriched arts component. The Casselman High School concept is relatively similar.
Senator Léger: Could you explain ``relatively similar?''
Mr. Haentjens: For quite some time, De La Salle High School was the only one in Ontario with this program. Its scope was provincial, while the high school in Casselman is regional. That is an important difference.
Senator Léger: Lets take the example of someone who studies the violin. At De La Salle High School, the student can enrol in that concentration and have a certain number of hours of specialized classes. Is that what happens at the school in Casselman? Will there be as many hours devoted to the student's specialization?
Mr. Haentjens: I believe that is the intention. I cannot give you any details because the concentration was only getting underway when we undertook this study. For example, at De La Salle High School, one of the four daily classes is dedicated to the arts concentration for students in that group. There are six concentrations: theatre, dance, visual arts, music, creative writing, and a sixth one. The concept at the Casselman school is similar to the one at De La Salle. All of the student population at the Casselman school are not enrolled in arts, but those who are interested can choose from a wide range of artistic options.
Senator Léger: And have as many hours of classes in their specialization?
Mr. Haentjens: I believe so. What is interesting about the high school in Casselman is that it has learned from the De La Salle experience and has a more innovative approach. I will give you an interesting example that relates to our study. Before setting up the concentration, the school principal — who is very committed to the artistic program — encouraged the teachers to do some networking throughout the region to see what artistic resources were available. Teachers went to the National Arts Centre, to the National Gallery of Canada, and met with people from the Nouvelle scène. It was important to determine which teachers could properly convey this cultural and artistic message. The high school in Casselman was extremely innovative in that area.
Senator Comeau: It is a pleasure to see you here this morning. As Senator Léger mentioned earlier, the area of arts and culture is of interest to us all.
As I was not present in Ottawa last week, I did not have the opportunity to look at the documents you gave us. I apologize if my questions are not germane. I would like to have another look at the implementation of what is proposed in the schools. Do you have the support of the school boards?
Ms. Gagnon: As early as last spring, we presented the study first to the table that includes all the school board elected officials under the umbrella of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones and then to the table with the directors general of the school boards.
On both of those occasions, the exchanges were very positive. As the study said already, there really is convergence. It would be fair to say, today, that many school boards are thinking about this because they are facing recruitment and retention problems.
Now that we have obtained our schools in different areas, how are we going to make sure that those schools are lively, dynamic, attended and achieve success in their educational projects in a minority environment? So, at this stage of the game, we are at a point where we may not be offering the whole solution, but we are certainly offering part of the solution and I have felt a lot of openness and interest.
On the other hand the question is how to get there. That is a difficult question to which we are still trying to find an answer.
If you do not mind, Senator Comeau, I will share a little thought concerning that problem. We understand that in the part of the government's action plan concerning education, there is a financial envelope. Minister Frulla told us, several months ago already, when we were meeting for the annual evaluation of the action plan, that she would keep part of that envelope in her department to support national initiatives whose goal, more specifically, would be cultural activities.
We applauded; we found that was marvelous and extraordinary news. On the other hand, to get to that, we are faced with the burden of what will be demanded of the players in the field. It is great, there is a financial envelope just waiting for national and maybe even regional initiatives. But to have access to that agreement, what we understand in the arts and culture sector is that we are going to have to convince the school boards, who will have to convince their own ministers of education, who will then have to meet in a national common front, and through the ministerial conference on education, to finally achieve that national project that might provide access to that financial envelope.
I am looking at that and I am exhausted before taking the first step because I wonder how many years and how much effort it will take to set up a project like that. I just think it is out of proportion.
Senator Comeau: I understand your cause fully. There are many communities in Canada who have the will but do not have the means nor the resources. In the area I come from, Baie Sainte-Marie, probably because it is part of the culture of that region, we have many more artists and musicians per capita than elsewhere in Canada. I will just name a few: Le Grand Dérangement, Denise Comeau, Blou; we have our Sagouine, Johnny Comeau and Kenneth Saulnier. I think it is because our area was isolated for so many centuries that art is part of us to that extent. Very few of those people have sufficient organization to have staff to present national projects. The artists, even though they are known and respected, very often do not have the amounts of money that would allow them to get involved in projects of that size.
Would it be yet another national program where the small regions that need to advance culture in their schools, will just miss the boat?
Ms. Gagnon: I would even go so far as to say that we need your support. Right now, our instructions refer to an approach that starts at the local level and goes up to the provincial one. We would have far greater success if we had leadership at the outset. At the national level, Minister Frulla and the conference of education ministers would be the ones deciding about the availability of an initiative flowing down to the communities. That would allow for a regional or local approach because some environments are perhaps more fertile than others. There are regions that have already experimented and would like to go on. Others have barely started to crawl. Everybody could go at their own speed. It seems to me that would help us develop an approach like the one I have just described. Right now, we are told that that is how it is going to work.
I would invite you to support us in those undertakings in order to try to convince our leaders to initiate a project that would be national in scope, but set up by those national leaders and which could be made accessible to all our stakeholders, wherever they are in French Canada.
Senator Comeau: During your presentation, somebody mentioned the fact that arts and culture teachers in the schools have to be properly trained.
On the other hand, I think that in an area like mine where we have artists who are recognized internationally and who have the enthusiasm but perhaps don't have the diplomas, they probably would not be qualified if they had to have diplomas to teach in our schools.
Mr. Haentjens: It is a matter of will. When we met the school boards, we realized that homogeneous francophone school boards have been in existence for 10 years. Their action was directed to what is called ``bricks and mortar,'' the walls, setting up the schools, but very little to what was going on inside those schools.
The boards and the francophone school board members are now a new level of government that is very important for our communities. The school boards are not necessarily sensitive to the questions we are discussing here this morning. As Ms. Gagnon was saying, they are very concerned with recruitment and the retention aspects of the cultural dimension. But what is done in the school, pedagogy and beyond pedagogy, that is to say the cultural enrichment of the school, that is something that was not of much concern to them until now.
We have observed that if everyone agrees on the idea that culture is important, in practice, very few resources are devoted to it in our schools. For example, De La Salle school, which is a model school in Ottawa, does not have a big budget to invite artists to their school. It is not just about asking artists to teach a course. In the Ottawa area, there is a pool of artists who are exceptional, in all areas, and we have very interesting set-ups allowing for the creation and presentation of works. Now, De La Salle has little in the way of means to draw in students to come and see its shows — it is very limited to the artistic field of concentration — and, on the other hand, to invite artists or performing arts people to the school. One of the directions to follow brought out in the study is the development of school-community partnerships.
You mentioned Nova Scotia earlier. In one of the 15 projects set out in the study, the NDA school in Chéticamp managed something quite extraordinary: the Conseil des arts de Chéticamp — which is a community organization — managed, together with the school and the school board concerned, which is the Conseil scolaire acadien de la Nouvelle-Écosse, to set up a playhouse facility physically attached to the school, although it is managed and hand- driven by the artistic centre. So there really is cooperation where the Conseil des arts de Chéticamp raises the awareness of students about culture by exposing them to all kinds of events, which is very important, and at the same time, the school provides the infrastructure that the Conseil des arts de Chéticamp needs to do that work.
It is really a matter of resources. I support what Paulette Gagnon was saying. Clearly everybody agrees on the statement of policy, but there are very few resources allocated to arts and culture.
I would like to conclude by saying that in the study we took a further look at the OLE agreements that we talked about earlier, that is the Official Languages Education Agreements, to specifically see how culture was faring in these agreements. Now, in every agreement there are two objectives, one relating to minority language education systems and the other to majority language education. According to the first objective, members of French-speaking minority language communities must be given the opportunity to be educated in their mother tongue and be enriched culturally through contact with their own culture. So there is a policy statement in this area.
For second language education, the same policy statement exists. It is stated that Ontario residents must have the opportunity to study French as a second language as well as the opportunity to be enriched culturally through a knowledge of the community's other culture. So the cultural component is very clearly included in the objectives. However, when you look at the remainder of the agreements, culture is neither included in the strategic plan nor in the action plan.
Senator Comeau: That is very interesting.
The Chairman: Your comments reflect the Supreme Court's statement that I quoted at the outset. All this is interlinked and cannot be ignored.
Ms. Gagnon, you talked about ``being out of steam before even starting'' and ``actually going backwards.'' I think that you have hit on the very essence of my concerns about service delivery, especially in light of the Supreme Court decisions which do not distinguish between education and culture. On the contrary, the connection is only reinforced.
In my opinion, the Supreme Court's decisions would suggest that the government has an obligation to implement initiatives and not actually ``go backwards'' as you suggested. The onus is not on you, but on the government to ensure that the Supreme Court's decisions are respected. Should you have any further comments, please do not hesitate, but rest assured your message was very clear from the word go.
Now I would like to raise the matter of equality. When the Supreme Court refers to equality, it means ``equality'' across the board. For the benefit of committee members and if indeed you are well informed concerning the cultural component of education, could you tell us if you have the same resources as the majority? When the Supreme Court refers to equality, it is not simply rhetoric, rather it implies an obligation for concrete outcomes. Do schools, school boards and government programs give you the same access to quality services for children as those offered to majority language students?
Mr. Haentjens: I think so. At the same time I would have to say that the problems are not the same. There is a lot of talk about artistic education both amongst English and French speakers, minority language communities and non- minority language communities. I am talking about artistic education and even more than this, education through the arts. This is a very current concern among different French-speaking and English-speaking communities in Canada.
According to this study, concerns are much greater over minority French language schools. It is not only a matter of providing exposure to the arts — which is the concern of majority language schools — but of finding a way in schools of enriching students culturally and exposing students to culture in addition to developing their sense of cultural belonging. This goes far beyond the scope of artistic education. So why the discrepancy? Well, because culture is not a given for the French-speaking minority.
For the majority, language and culture do come under the one equation. The English language; English culture. For the French-speaking minority, young students often live in French at school but, once school is out for the day, they are immersed in English culture and in a primarily English-speaking environment. School boards have made us very aware of this matter. The increasing number of exogamous marriages has meant that a lot of children end up in an English-speaking setting even at home. This is why minority language schools must play an even more decisive role from a cultural and artistic standpoint than majority language schools. This point is made in the study and refers to practices that are already used, that is that French-language schools have a double mandate: one academic and the other concerned with the creation of an identity. So in other words, French-language schools have a second mandate.
The Chairman: There is also a notion of redress and catching up. One must never forget this when talking about the minority.
Mr. Haentjens: French schools must do more. Perhaps they do just as much as English-language schools for the moment, but they must do more from a cultural and artistic standpoint.
The Chairman: But they do not always have the means.
Mr. Haentjens: Exactly.
Senator Chaput: I have a question about identity and more specifically the development of this identity when it comes to our students in French-language schools. My question relates to the link that exists between culture and language and how this is involved in the creation of an identity for our children.
Have you considered the difference that may exist between the development of identity at elementary school — when children are young and can more easily be made to take an interest in culture and language — and the development of identity at secondary school? We know all too well that when our students reach high school, their behaviour changes, that comes with age. There are even changes in the way they speak. They are often more interested in what comes out of the United States. Have you dealt with this issue in your study?
Mr. Haentjens: We were mainly able to gather research conducted on this very issue. I can tell you that currently, there are many studies being conducted on identity building, especially by the Fédération de la jeunesse canadienne- française in cooperation with the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities. Their studies focus mainly on high school-aged students. How is identity built? How do students define their identity? For example, the distinction is made between the concepts of linguistic identity and that of cultural identity. The study also looks at the concept of bilingual identity, which is very new and slightly alarming in some respects because one wonders what happens to culture when language becomes the dominant factor.
In Toronto, Diane Gérin-Lajoie followed the development of eight or nine students in a French-speaking high school for three years. She carried out a highly qualitative study to determine how cultural and linguistic identity develops among high school students. The results are quite worrying. At some level, we realize these students have basically become bilingual citizens, but that they lack much of an attachment to a francophone culture.
Mr. Benoît Henry, Director General, Alliance nationale de l'industrie musicale: I should add that also applies to the current recruitment challenges. We know that between 40 and 60 per cent of rights holders do not attend French- language schools.
At the high school level, it is not a matter of recruitment but rather of retention. In small communities mainly, where schools have few resources, there is the problem of students turning their backs on their culture. Earlier, you talked about equal access. When high schools in majority French-speaking communities have sufficient cultural resources, facilities, sporting teams and opportunities for cultural excursions, quite clearly a lot of young people in our communities are attracted by these schools. The connection we are trying to make here between culture and education is specifically linked to taking on the challenge of retention.
Senator Chaput: Among those parties that you have approached, have you had any involvement with the arts councils, whether at a provincial or federal level?
Ms. Gagnon: Over the recent months, we have not submitted the study as such to the arts councils. However, a few months ago in November, in Moncton, we were able to present the study to the Ministerial Conference on francophone Affairs. This was a first step. The provincial and territorial ministers for francophone affairs all met in Moncton and we had the opportunity to table the study before them. In a few months, we hope to have another opportunity at the Ministerial Conference on Culture.
Arts and education have been included in this conference's agenda. The conference may give us the opportunity to present our study, which would help us develop closer ties with the arts councils.
I should also mention that a number of the activities we are involved in were not initiated by us, but rather our involvement has been solicited. In Canada, there is currently a major pilot project being undertaken by the Canadian Conference of the Arts, the Canada Council for the Arts and the Canadian Commission for UNESCO. The project is called ``The Arts and Learning.'' This project does not only deal with cultural enrichment in minority language schools but also with the issue of how important the arts are in education.
I have been told that a major national committee is about to be struck and that it will consider this very question. It will be led by the Canadian Conference of the Arts, the Canada Council for the Arts and the Canadian Commission for UNESCO, but in partnership with all the provincial arts councils. The Ministerial Conference on Education apparently just agreed to take part in this analysis. A couple of days ago, I was told that the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française and its members would be invited to joint this committee. The First Nations were also invited, as the steering committee charged with considering the importance of the arts in education recognizes that minorities are often more interested in what the arts and culture can bring them in terms of enrichment to their education projects.
We are going to take part in this project because even if it is not our own, I believe that our input may be useful and may even, at least I hope so, add food for thought to a project that brings together some major players, including some with which we would like to work in future years.
I think that it will constitute a more far-reaching analysis than our own, but that it will enable us to recruit a number of players that are critical to our work.
The Chairman: You mean without relinquishing your uniqueness as an official language minority group?
Ms. Gagnon: Well, it will be in tandem with our own continuing work; our steering committee will lay out the ground work for an action plan but we will also be involved in this project of more or less international scope. This is a hot button issue. The arts and learning, and the arts and education are topics that are stimulating a lot of discussion worldwide.
[English]
The Chairman: Senator Buchanan is the vice-chair of this committee.
Senator Buchanan: I am not a francophone, but our Committee on Official Languages required someone like me on this committee to keep the it on the straight and narrow.
From your presentation, it appears that your federation is very busy. I can understand Ms. Gagnon's comment about being tired just thinking about what you do. You have done a lot of work over the last years with regard to arts and culture in the francophone areas of Canada.
Mr. Haentjens, if I understood you correctly, a few minutes ago you said that, if language takes over, culture disappears. What did you mean by that?
[Translation]
Mr. Haentjens: If we only focus on language, then French language schools will be no different than immersion schools. The language is treated like a service language. Do you understand?
[English]
Senator Buchanan: That is what I thought. I was not completely following you, but I was quite sure that is what you meant about separating language and culture. If you concentrate solely on language, culture may disappear. That answers my question.
I am not as up-to-date as Senator Comeau on the cultural activities of the Acadian districts of Nova Scotia, but I am reasonably up to date on them. Throughout the 1980s, I had the honour of singing with some Acadian groups. We would invite them to participate in certain functions in Halifax. I did not sing ``Out on the Mira'' with them — these gentlemen would know what I mean by that — but I did participate. Back then, Acadian cultural groups, primarily the singers and dancers, were an integral part of the cultural activities in Nova Scotia. At just about every provincial dinner, banquet or other activity put on during my years as premier, we would have Acadian groups from Clare, Argyle or northern Cape Breton, or in Richmond County.
As Senator Comeau mentioned, funding is always a problem. However, it may not be as great a problem today because, as you might know, the Government of Nova Scotia has appointed the Honourable Chris d'Entremont as Minister of Acadian Affairs. In addition, the Minister of Education, the Honourable Jamie Muir, is heavily involved.
Mr. Bourbeau, in your presentation I did not hear you say that there was much research on arts and culture specifically in the Acadian areas of Nova Scotia. In particular, I am thinking of the area represented by Senator Comeau through Western Nova Scotia, which is predominantly Acadian. You mentioned Cheticamp, which I know well because I am from Cape Breton. What about the Richmond County area on the other side of Cape Breton and the Carrefour du Grand-Havre, the French school, in Dartmouth?
In your research, have you found that there are many cultural activities in Nova Scotia, in particular in the areas I just mentioned?
[Translation]
Mr. Haentjens: The object of our study is not to take an account of cultural activities throughout Canada. We have simply tried to hone in on a couple of typical and interesting examples which have helped us to illustrate the connection between language, culture and education. The scope of our work was quite limited. We only documented 15 initiatives throughout Canada and in Nova Scotia we chose Chéticamp as an example. We could have chosen other examples in Baie Sainte-Marie and other communities where schools exist such as Grand-Havre. There was more than enough material to document, however we limited our scope. I should clarify that our study was quite modest and we were not able to travel. We documented these projects by telephone or through written correspondence. Those were the parameters of our study.
[English]
Senator Buchanan: I did not notice in your presentation any mention of Nova Scotia, although you did mention Cheticamp. May I suggest that you highlight Nova Scotia in your next presentation?
[Translation]
The Chairman: We will move on to the second round of questions. We have another group of witnesses to hear at 11:00 a.m. and I would like to adjourn this part of our sitting at about 10:55 a.m.
Senator Léger: It is called language, culture, education. With regard to the arts, not only ``language'' would be included. It would include dance, which is not a language, music, which is not a language either and visual arts which are universal. I am not in a position to say that there are not any problems. I believe that music is ahead in education and perhaps also visual arts. As your study concerns language, culture and education, it will include literature, books and theatre. In education, do you see a difference between the two?
Do you agree that music, visual arts — and perhaps dance to a lesser extent — are ahead of literature and theatre in education?
Mr. Henry: Your question brings me back to a number of issues. Assimilation in Acadian and francophone communities throughout Canada has been broadly studied. The factors that contribute to the vitality of these communities have been studied far less. Many studies demonstrate that for a language to maintain its vitality there needs to be some level of prestige. French is spoken in 52 countries in the francophonie, it is therefore prestigious. The fact that French is an official language in Canada makes it prestigious. However, these factors do not in themselves guarantee the vitality of a language. Indeed, despite the existence of such factors, we are still faced with the problems of assimilation. Our study underlines just what these factors are. We believe that you need to invest in culture, whether it be music, theatre and so on. This is what contributes and will continue to contribute to enhancing the vitality of our official languages communities.
Senator Léger: I would like to come back to what Mr. Haentjens said earlier. You need to be a specialist to teach theatre and literature. In my opinion, that is where the biggest problem lies. You need artists that are gifted and talented at teaching and this is not everybody's cup of tea. School boards do not understand. The government understands even less, but development will occur due to people like Paul Gallant, in Chéticamp, Anne Lowe or Monique Richard. In my experience, if we are lucky enough to have these people, we should be protecting them. People like that do not come out of thin air. We need to protect them so that they are not crushed by the workload on their shoulders. Does the Canada Council for the Arts have a teaching specialization to help teachers who would like to specialize? The Canada Council for the Arts targets professionals and not amateurs. I am talking about the kind of teacher who is really good and has proven that people want to be in his class. Students want to study under him and he will work regardless of whether the money is there or not. That is the way artists are. It is pretty amazing, it is simply in their nature.
Mr. Haentjens: I think we need to work on two fronts. First, on training teachers; however, we do not have the time to talk about that this morning. In the study, this was emphasized in several sections. Teachers need to be able to transmit the cultural message that we want communicated to students. This is not often the case. Teachers need to be made aware of certain cultural factors. We are not asking them to be art education specialists. Schools need to find the necessary resources so that teachers can invite artists from the art world to their classes. We are not asking artists to be teachers. If they are both, all the better. That may sometimes be the case, however, what we are asking for is that teachers who provide instruction in visual arts and who are not specialists in the area should be able to get artists from the community to give workshops to their classes. Such visits can then be used as the basis of a lesson. This is how we see things.
Ms. Gagnon: It would be a dream to have resident artists in every school throughout the country. Now, to come back to what Mr. Haentjens was saying, we are not talking about asking all our artists to study education in order to become teachers. We want them to remain artists and to continue to create. But why not think about a major resident artist project for our minority schools? Artists could visits schools, make presentations and support teachers in teaching the arts and undertaking projects of a cultural nature.
The arts councils do get involved as most arts councils have programs supporting resident artists.
In Ontario, they are called ``creative artists'' in schools. Our study has shown that such ``creative artists'' are already provided for in the arts councils of several provinces. Is there some way of working together, by that I mean the Department of Education, the Council for the Arts and other community-based stakeholders, to enhance our capacity at getting resident artists into our schools? That could be an excellent project.
Senator Léger: Now on that matter, I can see that the danger lies in teachers having a smattering of cultural training and artists a smattering of training as teachers. No. I would like to see artists interested in education becoming qualified as full-fledged teachers. I want all teachers to have a sound cultural grounding, but that is not what I am talking about. We need some leaders and we must protect them.
Senator Comeau: I would like to come back to the matter of the national program that you mentioned earlier, Ms. Gagnon. From what I understood, a sum of money is earmarked for projects to enhance culture within schools. Is there also a fund for a national program?
Ms. Gagnon: I am going on what the Minister for Canadian Heritage, Ms. Frulla, said a couple of months ago at the annual assessment meeting, the ministerial meeting on the government's action plan. She stated, when talking about additional money in the action plan for education, that it would not all be invested in the agreements and that she intended to keep a national envelope managed by the Department of Canadian Heritage. This envelope, in keeping with the statement made in the action plan will be used to support cultural activities.
Senator Comeau: Did she specify the amount?
Ms. Gagnon: Not at that stage, but I am sure that we could get the necessary information.
Senator Comeau: It would indeed be interesting to get the exact figures for the benefit of the committee. What is your relationship with Quebec artists as an overall group?
Ms. Gagnon: We have a number of ties with them. In some cases, we cooperate with Quebec organizations. For example, I might mention the ZOF office in Montreal which promotes French-Canadian and Acadian artists in the Quebec market. This is a very important market to us because our natural markets are often small. It is important for our artists to penetrate the Quebec market. We also work together with a number of Quebec broadcasting networks that specialize in the broadcasting and distribution of artistic productions in Canada and Quebec.
Senator Comeau: Does the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française have a Quebec-specific group?
Ms. Gagnon: Our members include people involved in the arts and culture from outside Quebec. However, we work with some Quebec organizations just as education does on some occasions.
Senator Comeau: Are Quebecers becoming more open? For some time, Quebecers isolated themselves and were busy creating a Quebec culture and had no ties with the Canadian communities.
Ms. Gagnon: I would say that there has been some very positive progress made over the years.
Ms. Bourbeau: I sat on a committee which was charged with modernizing and reviewing the Quebec government's infamous policy on francophone and Acadian communities. I can tell you that the intention is to reintegrate Quebec into this French-Canadian identity.
The Chairman: We are getting away from the topic of schools. We must be disciplined, Senator Comeau.
Senator Comeau: When we have people here representing these groups, we need to make the most of the opportunity.
The Chairman: We can talk about this, but our study has a definite focus.
Senator Chaput: I would like to come back to a comment you made concerning money earmarked in the Official Languages Action Plan and the fact that there is perhaps some money to which you may have access. So once again, the department, from what you can gather, will be imposing a very constraining structure on you which, at the end of the day, may not meet the communities' needs and the study's objectives. I also understand that you have already identified a number of partners, and that you have started to increase awareness and are now ready to think about an action plan and how to implement it. Do you have enough information to develop a reasonably simple action plan from the bottom up? Instead of having Canadian Heritage impose a structure on you, could you tell us how you would like us to deal with the information we have obtained and what to do with it? Are you at a stage where you could table a cultural activities pilot project that is province-specific but which goes from the bottom up?
Ms. Gagnon: We will know that by June. As I said earlier, this joint committee will bring together stakeholders affected indirectly, and especially directly, by the analysis that we are carrying out. As I said, all the major stakeholders, especially in the field of education, will be on the committee. There is a challenge before us. It is up to us to work with all stakeholders to firstly agree on the issues and then as a team work out how to follow up on this study. We have very ambitiously challenged ourselves to develop the underpinnings, the directions of the action plan by June. In June, the Minority Education Summit will be held and this will be a fantastic opportunity for us to talk about the direction in which we are going and to be further validated by our committee during the summit.
By summer, we will have more or less finalized the direction that we will be taking collectively.
Senator Murray: I hope that my concern does not take us too far away from the topic at hand and I would invite you to call me to order, Mr. Chair, as we do only have three minutes.
The Chairman: Please go ahead. Remarks, once they are made, are indeed eternal.
Senator Murray: I cannot help but raise my concern over the pathetic effort made in our schools to teach history. Just last night, I was told that in Ontario, a high school student can graduate with only half a year studying history. That is scandalous.
I acknowledge and take heart in the fact that by learning about culture and the arts, one may indeed discuss such fundamental questions, such as: Who are we? Where do we come from?
But it is scandalous all the same. Historians and academics like Professor Granatstein, amongst others, have written about this issue at length. But have you considered this problem which is somewhat linked to your concerns? I would ask you to comment briefly on that.
Ms. Gagnon: You raise a very good point. It is not necessarily something that we looked at in our study, but your point is certainly valid and important. You are right, and I think that in dealing with the cultural issue, we will certainly address the question of our own history, of our history in Canada, at least. I appreciate your comment.
The Chairman: In closing, I would like to know whether you have submitted your document or whether you are planning to ask for a meeting with Ms. Frulla and other decision-makers to discuss it with them?
Ms. Gagnon: It is definitely on the agenda of a meeting that we hope to have in 2005 with Ms. Frulla. I have to say that we are a bit frustrated because we have been trying now for two years to set up a meeting with the Minister of Canadian Heritage. We were scheduled to meet with Ms. Scherrer on May 31, 2004, and then the election was called, so the meeting did not happen. We have been working since then to get a meeting with Ms. Frulla and we still have not been given a date. I think that we phone every week, if not every day, because it is somewhat disappointing to see that Ms. Frulla has so little time for the official language minority communities.
So if you can put in a word to help us, it would be very much appreciated. I know that we spoke to Mr. Bélanger last week and told him that we were becoming impatient. We really hope to set up a meeting with Ms. Frulla very soon and this study will definitely be on our agenda.
The Chairman: Do you feel that you are among the groups called on to give feedback in the whole process of negotiations and programs worked out between the federal and provincial governments? Or do you feel marginalized? I would appreciate a direct answer because people often complain that, in the education field, the final draft is arrived at by the two levels of government. Those involved do not always go back to the grassroots to get feedback first, which would be a good idea in some cases.
Ms. Gagnon: Over the past few months, we have tried to create a niche for ourselves in these negotiations, including with respect to the education agreements. As an arts and culture organization, it is not easy for us to establish a role for ourselves in a process that has existed for a number of years. As was said earlier, school boards constitute a separate level of government. We have certainly tried to make ourselves better known. We made a presentation to the school boards, as we said earlier, and we also presented our study to the officials from the division responsible for the education agreements.
The Chairman: The Council of Ministers of Education?
Ms. Gagnon: No, the Canadian Heritage officials who work on the education agreements. So we tried to create awareness in that area.
The Chairman: So this was at the federal level. But at the level of the provincial ministers of education?
Ms. Gagnon: No. Up to this point, we have not had access to the Council of Ministers of Education. We did, however, have the opportunity to participate in certain provincial events, including in Ontario, where a new language policy was launched a few months ago.
So we were able to present our study in Ontario through that event. But we have not yet managed to go around all the provinces and territories. That is something that we will be working on over the next few months. But I believe that we have been able to reach all of the school boards through the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires. We hope that those efforts will pay off and we are continuing to try to reach the highest levels with these issues.
The Chairman: Do the school boards take your concerns up to the highest decision-making level?
Ms. Gagnon: I cannot tell you that for sure, unfortunately. That is my hope, of course.
The Chairman: Thank you very much, Ms. Gagnon, to you and your team for your input this morning. I wish you good luck for the future. On behalf of all members of the committee, thank you.
Ms. Gagnon: We are very grateful to you for having had us here today.
The Chairman: The meeting is suspended for a few minutes.
The committee suspended its sitting.
The committee resumed its sitting.
The Chairman: We will now continue our meeting.
[English]
I would remind you that, once we have heard from this group of witnesses, we will hold a brief in camera meeting to deal with a number of administrative matters. Then lunch will be served for everyone present in the room.
[Translation]
The Chairman: We now welcome the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada. I am not familiar with this network. I believe that Mr. Allard will be making the presentation. Perhaps, Mr. Allard, you could begin by telling us who you are, what your organization stands for and what your objectives are.
The organization told us that there was no written brief, however, we have just been given a brief written only in French.
Of all the Senate committees, this one has a particular duty to comply with the Official Languages Act. Does anyone object to having this brief distributed to senators in French only?
[English]
Senator Buchanan, I am sure you heard me. This text is not available in English at this time. We just received it this morning and there was no time for its translation. Do you object to circulating it in French only?
Senator Buchanan: No, in view of the fact that I am learning French very quickly, I do not object.
[Translation]
Senator Comeau: The document has already been distributed.
The Chairman: But it cannot be quoted, because it is not officially before us.
Senator Comeau: In fact, it should not have been distributed.
The Chairman: I understand.
Senator Comeau: Given that it has already been received, it is too late now to take it away from us. It should be pointed out as a reminder, however, that documents that are not available in both official languages should not be distributed.
The Chairman: Absolutely. Unfortunately, it is my experience from other committees that English-only documents are circulated and the francophone members are good sports about it. But the act is clear: committee documents must be available in both official languages.
We are not asking witnesses to translate their documents. If you can provide it to us a week ahead of time, we can get it translated into the other official language. Mr. Allard, please go ahead.
Mr. François Allard, President, Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada: I would like to thank the committee for welcoming us here today so that we can present certain positions of the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada. I would like to introduce the people accompanying me today. My name is François Allard, president of the network. With me is Linda Savard, who has recently been appointed director general of the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada, and Mr. Saint-Jules, who has been the project manager for a number of years. He has been with the network for a long time and is the person who knows it the best. His presence here is important today. The Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada has members across Canada. Its main objective is to help promote post-secondary education at the college level in all the provinces and territories of Canada. We want to do this by enabling the partners, or members, of the network to take advantage of the expertise developed by other network member institutions.
Our mission is both easy, because it is formulated in a clear and simple way, and difficult, because of the situation of francophone minority communities across Canada with respect to post-secondary education. That is what we would like to speak to you about today. Unless you have other questions about the network itself, I will now begin our presentation.
My presentation will be divided into five points. I will begin with a brief review of some of the federal government's objectives for education. I will then outline the situation concerning college-level post-secondary education in minority francophone communities in Canada, highlight the dual mandate of francophone institutions, and close with the challenges we face at the college level in French. Our presentation will be followed by a conclusion describing our concerns for the future.
I will first review the federal government's objectives in the education area. Over the years, the federal government has recognized the importance of education and training. It has also championed linguistic duality. With respect to post-secondary education, the federal government clearly expressed its support in a 2002 document entitled "Knowledge Matters", which defines the government's goal as providing all qualified Canadians with access to high- quality post-secondary education. Some of the milestones on the way to that goal are to give all high school graduates the opportunity to participate in some form of post-secondary education, ensure that 50 per cent of 25 to 64-year-olds obtain a post-secondary credential and double the number of apprentices completing a certification program. The government also indicates other forms that its contribution could take: making education more accessible to Canadians; encouraging Canadian workers to participate in post-secondary education while continuing to work; facilitate mobility and access to post-secondary education for adult learners and students; encourage Canadians to look to skilled trades for employment; build on the expertise of community colleges; and increase the number of highly qualified people.
Turning now to official languages, linguistic duality is part of our roots and our history. It requires the federal government to enable all Canadians to have access to the dual heritage that our two official languages, English and French, constitute for our country.
This dual heritage belongs to all Canadians, and the federal government wants to help them to take full advantage of it. The statement made in connection with the Action Plan for Official Languages, published in 2003, very clearly indicates, in our opinion, the federal government's commitment and constitutional obligations toward official language communities.
The Canadian government recognizes the importance not only of ensuring that minority communities survive, but also that they achieve their full potential. In the context of globalization, greater mobility on the part of minority community members, lower birth rates, demographic changes and the advent of the knowledge economy in which media play an increasing role, this is a major challenge. Consequently and fortunately, the Action Plan for Official Languages addresses three priority areas for meeting this challenge: education, community development and an exemplary public service.
The situation regarding college-level post-secondary education in Canada's minority francophone communities is that four provinces provide college training to these communities by accredited institutions. In New Brunswick, the New Brunswick community college campuses of Bathurst, Campbellton, Dieppe, Edmunston and Péninsule acadienne provide francophones in that province with a range of programs in French. In Ontario, a large of number of college programs are offered through two French-language applied arts and technology colleges. These are Collège Boréal in Sudbury and Cité collégiale in Ottawa. In addition, Collège d'Alfred, which is affiliated with Guelph University, provides college-level training in agriculture.
In Manitoba, Franco-Manitobans have access to college-level education through eight programs offered by the École technique et professionnelle of the Collège universitaire Saint-Boniface. In Nova Scotia, Université Sainte-Anne, following its merger with Collège de l'Acadie, provides a still limited offering of college programs.
What about the other provinces and territories in Canada? Access to college-level education in those jurisdictions is either very limited or non-existent. The organizations providing the training are not government-accredited. The Société éducative de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard offers PEI francophones the chance to register in college programs provided by Université Sainte-Anne. In Saskatchewan, college programming focusing mainly on adult education is offered through the Service fransaskois d'éducation aux adultes. In Alberta, a single bilingual program is offered by the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, and the Société d'éducation de l'Alberta (ÉDUK) offers literacy training and adult education. In British Columbia, Educacentre offers occupational training programs and adult education. For the past two years or so, Educacentre has been offering a few college-level programs in cooperation with Cité collégiale in Ottawa.
In 2004, a federal-provincial agreement was signed to develop college programs in French in British Columbia. Newfoundland and Labrador, The Northwest Territories, Yukon and Nunavut have no college-level education in French, except for a few distance education courses in Yukon, which are offered in cooperation with Educacentre in Vancouver.
Unfortunately, there is really no Canada-wide network of French-language colleges. francophones living in minority communities certainly do not have fair and equal access to college education in their first language, compared with anglophones in Canada.
Even in provinces such as Ontario and New Brunswick, where there is a much wider range of college-level services and programs available, the situation is fragile and the offer much more limited than is the case for anglophones.
In this context, francophone institutions have a dual mandate. Educational institutions are essential for the survival, maintenance and development of minority francophone communities.
More than ever before, minority francophones are facing assimilation by the majority language community and they no longer live in social and geographic isolation, which protected them against assimilation for a long time. The constant encroachment of English, owing to socio-economic globalization, threatens to swallow up francophone communities and eliminate French culture in Canada. This growing threat to all minority cultural minorities has been noted by the United Nations and is confirmed by recently published statistics from Statistics Canada.
The role and importance of francophone institutions in safeguarding the development of their communities is well documented and recognized by sociologists and the courts. Governments cannot and must not make decisions or take measures that have the effect of promoting assimilation. On the contrary, they must ensure that linguistic minorities in Canada are taken into consideration and protected. These are constitutional obligations, as indicated by former Ontario Premier Bob Rae in the report of the Advisory Panel on Future Direction for Postsecondary Education, which was submitted to the Ontario government in early February 2005.
It has been acknowledged that French-language institutions have a special mission to develop the vitality of their community. Educational institutions rank highest among the various types of institutions that are needed to help communities survive and develop. As a result, francophone communities must have access to a complete network of educational institutions in French in order to combat assimilation, promote their culture and contribute to the social and economic well-being of their members and of Canada as a whole.
It is true that structures to enable minority communities to administer their own schools exist now in all provinces and territories, and more and more young people are graduating from high school in these schools. Unfortunately, these young Canadians are at risk of assimilation when they move on to the post-secondary level, especially at the college level, because there are not enough programs available.
Moreover, the fact that there are no programs or few programs available at the college level has an impact on the proportion of young francophones who study in French after graduating from high school.
Post-secondary education institutions providing college-level programs in French, such as exists in New Brunswick and Ontario and we would like to see in all Canadian jurisdictions, play a key role as pillars of their minority communities and important forces that preserve language and culture, foster community solidarity and development, support the well-being of community members and develop professional skills.
francophone colleges in minority communities thus have a dual mandate. On the one hand, like all college-level institutions, francophone colleges must provide high-quality college level education that meets the needs of their clients and the labour market.
Also, these colleges have a mandate to increase access to post-secondary education in French for francophones and francophiles. This part of its mandate also involves increasing the number of people studying in French and the number of programs available to the francophone community. The colleges must actively work to provide educational opportunities to all groups within the community, young people continuing their education; adults improving their knowledge and upgrading their skills; workers seeking to increase their qualifications and improve their lot in life; apprentices working toward their journeyman credentials; and unemployed people trying to get back into the labour force.
On the other hand, francophone colleges in minority communities also have a duty to help develop the potential of their communities by creating a dynamic centre of French life that can promote French culture and francophone pride as well as provide leadership beyond its walls. By playing this role, francophone colleges act as a buttress against assimilation.
What are the challenges that we are facing? This dual mandate comes with a number of challenges for francophone colleges in minority communities. To begin with, the issue of critical mass is a stumbling block that threatens the development and ongoing existence of college programs in French across the country.
The potential pool of students for francophone colleges in minority communities is based on a relatively limited population that is often scattered over a wide area because there are few if any francophone institutions. francophones at risk of rapid assimilation are attracted by anglophone colleges that are nearer to home. So an aggressive marketing plan and substantial investments are needed in order to develop communication and recruitment strategies to reach potential students.
In order for colleges to provide high-quality programs, they need to attract enough students to make the programs financially viable. The minimum number should not, of course, be the same as that required by anglophone colleges, which have a much larger potential pool to draw from.
In order to meet the requirements of a complex and broad labour market, colleges must offer a broad range of programs. Since the potential clientele is limited, the groups registering for the various programs are very small and this means that the per capita cost is higher than for anglophone colleges. Since francophone colleges in minority communities are not adequately funded, it is difficult for them to guarantee that all courses will be offered and that programs that have been announced will be able to get underway. As a result, a number of francophone students prefer to register in anglophone colleges, where cancellation risks are much lower.
This is why increasing numbers of francophone students choose to go to anglophone institutions for post-secondary programs and apprenticeship courses. In view of the rapid assimilation rate, the importance of creating a dynamic centre where young and adult francophones are able to live their life in French cannot be overstated.
For minority language college education everywhere, this poses a major challenge. In order to increase access to post-secondary education in French, francophone colleges in minority communities need to provide access to more people and offer more programs. But more programs can be offered only if the colleges receive adequate funding that takes into account the particular situation that they are in as francophone colleges in majority anglophone environments.
This is a problem because, in a number of provinces, they are funded the same way as anglophone colleges, without taking into account their dual mandate and the fact that it costs more to operate a francophone college in an anglophone environment.
Finally, and this is unfortunately the case in a number of provinces and territories, francophone high school graduates cannot attend college in French because no college-level programs exist in their region or province. The obvious consequence is that francophones go on to attend anglophone institutions, which accelerate their assimilation, or they move to a province which offers French-language college education and they never come back to their province or territory of origin.
The result is that the most vulnerable francophone communities are losing ground. Because of their dual mandate, francophone colleges or institutions that provide college-level education are pillars in minority communities. They are called on to participate in all sorts of activities and events that drain their resources. It is not surprising that francophone communities have high expectations of their institutions, which are required to take part in social, cultural and economic activities.
Unfortunately, the funding and resources available to these institutions limit their ability to act and this often creates resentment that must be managed. francophone colleges are often the new kids on the block. They have to compete with existing institutions that have already developed networks of contacts in business and in industry, and among employers in general.
This difficulty is aggravated by the fact that most employers are anglophone and they need to be convinced of the added value involved in providing education in French. For many years, in nearly all regions of Canada, anglophones have enjoyed a network of colleges offering a very broad range of programs and services. These institutions have strong ties with one another and cooperate to develop quality programs that meet labour market needs.
Thanks to these college programs, anglophones participate fully in the knowledge economy. The development of francophone colleges, however, is still in its early stages. A Canada-wide network of French-college level institutions is just starting to be created, in a context where the constitutional rights of francophone communities are recognized to different extents by the various provinces and territories, education is a provincial jurisdiction, geographic isolation is an important factor, there is a lack of francophone and bilingual professionals able to provide college-level education in French, educational materials in French are in short supply and underfunding is a common problem.
francophones in Canada have the same rights to a high-quality education in their language as other Canadians do. They have a right to the same range of opportunities to learn the trade, technical skill or occupation of their choice as their anglophone counterparts. In order for francophone colleges to be able to provide high-quality, diverse educational opportunities that meet the needs of students and the labour market, they need a funding system that takes into account their differences, the conditions in which they operate, the additional costs that result because they are operating in a majority anglophone environment, and their dual mandate.
I will now make a few concluding remarks. Despite all these challenges, francophone colleges over the past few years have made important gains, since there are now some 7,000 francophones in minority communities who are registered full-time in college programs, mainly in Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Manitoba.
Nearly 20,000 francophones in almost all provinces and territories have access to occupational training and adult education programs provided through colleges and institutions offering college-level education in French.
In addition, since its creation in 1995, the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada has, among other things, facilitated over 50 interprovincial cooperation projects among institutions that provide college training in all provinces, including Quebec. These transfer-of-expertise projects, in terms of college programs and services provided in French, contribute to the institutional strengthening of partner organizations.
The RCCFC has shown a lot of leadership in many cases. For example, in carrying out research projects such as the motivation of secondary school graduates to pursue post-secondary education in French; in creating a Far-Ouest project with a view to providing college training in French in B.C., Alberta and Saskatchewan; in student mobility projects that enable young Canadian francophones to have a college experience in a province other than the one in which they usually study.
In terms of that future, despite the challenges that seem virtually insurmountable, minority francophone communities have demonstrated their ability, not just to survive, but also to thrive. The establishment of French- language school boards across Canada is evidence enough of that.
The time has now come to support the establishment of a Canada-wide system of French-language college institutions. A well-coordinated Canada-wide system providing access to quality college training is absolutely essential to the economic, cultural and social development of minority francophone communities.
The federal government has to show the provinces strong leadership in this area. It also has to provide stable, ongoing, and multi-year funding not only for the initial implementation, but also to support the added costs of this training.
It has to ensure that access to college training for francophones in minority communities is comparable to that of the anglophone community.
Not only does it have to ensure access, it also has to ensure the quality of this training, considering the significant challenges of the situation outside Quebec.
Last, the federal government has to provide even greater support than it currently provides to a network like the RCCFC, whose mandate is to facilitate partnerships, cooperation and the transfer of college expertise across Canada. Thank you very much for your attention.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Allard, on behalf of the committee, for this brief, which appears to me to be quite complete in terms of your concerns and goals. We are going to begin the question period with Senator Chaput, followed by Senator Comeau.
Before that, I would like you to comment on the scope of section 23 of the Charter, where it says people have the right to have their children receive primary and secondary school instruction.
The college level is not included in that section of the Charter. Could you comment right away before we get into a more elaborate discussion?
Mr. Allard: To be brief, I would say it should be included.
The Chairman: It is not. And the interpreters of that section, as well as some courts, have commented that institutions such as the ones you advocate are not covered by that section of the Charter. So what is to be done?
Mr. Yvon Saint-Jules, Project Manager, Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada: That is absolutely right. In the strict sense, the college or post-secondary level is not included in section 23. However, the most common interpretation of that article is a bit broader than the strict interpretation.
It is completely logical. If you consider that young people are educated, brought up to the secondary school level, and then put into an assimilation system, clearly the spirit of section 23, of protecting the French language and francophone communities, imposes and requires something be available for francophones after the secondary school level.
Senator Chaput: I am glad to see you have a network with the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada. Now, among colleges, you have already begun to consider sharing expertise, because in the end, you cannot be all things to everyone, if everyone stays in their own province.
Does this initiative go so far, for example, as to allow someone from Manitoba to get distance training from Ontario developed where you are but available where we are through technology? Have you gone that far with your initiative?
Mr. Saint-Jules: There is that kind of initiative, but with some limitations. Given that education comes under provincial jurisdiction and that in a number of professions, including health, there are local requirements or conditions, like provincial accreditation needed in order to practice, it is more a matter of transfers of expertise from province to province.
For example, Ontario and Nova Scotia had a paramedic training program that was adapted to the local environment and provided by provincial institutions. Similarly, there are also exchanges of this kind with B.C.
In the west, between B.C. and the Yukon, for example, distance training is done using various technologies. The fact remains that there is a lot of work to be done in this area and a lot of opportunities to be developed. It is a matter of resources and labor supplies. But we have the beginnings of this kind of activity.
Senator Chaput: Since the government is looking at national day care service, and since it is the community colleges that provide training for those day care services, have you already contemplated getting involved in this national network so that uniform day care services in French are provided in our colleges across Canada?
Mr. Saint-Jules: We are studying the project and initiatives that the government is undertaking in this area. Colleges are interested in the training, not the management of childcare centres.
Senator Chaput: That is what I meant.
Mr. Saint-Jules: The bulk of the $5 billion announced for the next five years is more for running the centres than for training. I have not seen whether part of the amount was for staff training, but obviously staff are needed to run the centres.
It is also quite true that colleges provide that training. The concern exists, and there have already been exchanges among institutions, both Quebec institutions and institutions outside Quebec, to beef up the training of staff who are going to work in this field.
In some provinces, though, provincial accreditation or certification is required, whereas in others, the training may be more easily exported. There too, training and transfers of expertise will have to be adjusted as a result.
The Chairman: Mr. Allard wanted to add something.
Mr. Allard: I find your question about distance education and possible partnerships among Canadian colleges very interesting.
Especially since we always tend to think that the problems or difficulties of providing programs are exclusively reserved for minority communities outside Quebec.
Currently, in Quebec, we are encountering similar difficulties. I am from Quebec and I run a college in Quebec. Regional colleges are seeing their student bodies decrease and regional supply is also threatened in Quebec. Work is being done to see how we can pair up teams and make sure that the training continues.
That kind of experimenting can be done, and we intend to go in that direction, as much as possible, in an attempt to be realistic about the numbers of students we are going to get; at least, in a francophone minority setting. Yes, these are avenues we are going to explore and have already begun to explore with whatever means we have. Obviously, the network is small. But within its mandates, the network seeks to create more of these partnerships and promote a bit more innovation in the provision of training programs.
Senator Chaput: Does that go as far as sharing expertise? I am going to take Manitoba, for example, where a professor is trained to teach day care service and the college does not have enough students for the course to be given every year. It is given every two years, but meanwhile, the professor could give it somewhere else if he is already trained. Is that something that you are contemplating?
Mr. Allard: It is fully compatible with the RCCFC's way of seeing things.
The Chairman: I would like to clarify something. There is an organization called the Réseau d'enseignement francophone à distance, which is headquartered in Montreal. Are you familiar with that organization?
Mr. Saint-Jules: We are very familiar with that organization. We work with that organization and with the Collège de Rosemont, which often takes on the management of that network. As a matter of fact, it is one of our partners.
The Chairman: Is it a Canada-wide network or strictly in Quebec?
Mr. Saint-Jules: The network was born in Quebec, but it is starting to expand its activities all across Canada. It has become a Canada-wide network that also works at the university level.
The Chairman: We invited representatives of that network to appear before the committee and they declined, by the way.
Senator Comeau: I would like to come back to the structure of your organization. Who are your members? Are they college directors, teachers or representatives?
Mr. Allard: In general, the network includes a group of institutions represented by the director.
Senator Comeau: It is the college director?
Mr. Allard: Yes, it is the college director.
Senator Comeau: How is your network funded?
Mr. Saint-Jules: Our funding comes from contributions from members. A very large part of it comes from the support Canadian Heritage gives us and from various projects we can generate ourselves or submit to funders.
Senator Comeau: Do groups suggest individual strategies or plans for each of your colleges, or is the director the one who devises the strategy?
Mr. Saint-Jules: A college operates a bit differently than the elementary and secondary school network. Each college is independent and provides a variety of programs. With its management team and faculty, each college establishes its own strategic plan and approach. The RCCFC attempts to locate specific expertise at one college in particular for the benefit of all of its members.
Mr. Allard: Currently, the network is on the verge of setting up a transfer of expertise project among network members. That will create partnerships and exchanges among Quebec colleges and colleges outside Quebec at all structural levels. It could start with college directors, exchanging projects with the directors of other colleges in relation to directors' issues.
The idea is to link up teachers, academic advisors, people who deal with student life, so that at all levels of college structure, those people can talk to one another and share their expertise. I say we need to share because in Quebec, we have a lot to learn from the expertise of some colleges outside Quebec, and vice versa. It should not be a one-way street.
Senator Comeau: The idea of cooperation between institutions in Quebec and outside Quebec is an interesting one. It is important that there be this type of relationship between Quebecers and non-Quebecers.
You are probably one of the only national institutions that covers all the provinces and territories of Canada. Very often, this committee hears from Canadian federations which exclude Quebec. It is very important to maintain this type of cooperation.
There is something we would definitely like to find out in the future: we would like to know how you managed to encourage Quebec to cooperate with the other provinces, particularly in an area of provincial jurisdiction. Did you achieve this because your group has existed since 1995?
Mr. Allard: Perhaps I could talk to you about the beginnings of the RCCFC. There is another body that represents Canadian colleges. It is the ACCC, the Association of Canadian Community Colleges. This association includes the English-language and French-language colleges in the country.
In 1995, a significant number of French-language Canadian colleges belong to the association and did not feel there is a real desire within the association to support the development of education in French.
That is when the Réseau des collèges et des cégeps francophones du Canada came into being. Our organization was established in order to promote French culture and language in Canada. Clearly, the Quebec college I represent does not have to deal with the same situation as colleges outside Quebec. I am the president of the Réseau and I have been learning about the situation facing francophones outside Quebec for a year now. I can tell you that I have found this very interesting.
The reason a number of Quebec colleges belong to the RCCFC is that they share the concern to improve the francophone community in Canada, through college training.
This has been a significant catalyst, because almost 75 per cent of Quebec colleges belong to the network. This is an ongoing challenge, but an interesting one. Through the projects we have carried out to date, we have shown that it is possible to make some changes through cooperation and partnership. In places such as the Yukon, where the community is very small, it has even been possible to establish partnerships to provide distance education.
This has happened at the Éduk Centre in Vancouver, which supports the Yukon. It is also true of the Collège Montmorency, which I head, and which has been involved in program sharing between Manitoba and New Brunswick.
Three provinces are involved in projects that are trying to harmonize college training programs and to allow for the mobility of not only students, but also teachers, who will go from Quebec to Manitoba or from Manitoba to New Brunswich and who will increase their expertise within their institution. That is the dynamic underlying RCCFC.
Senator Comeau: I have been looking into the college system for some time. If I recall correctly, CEGEPs are different from colleges, they place more emphasis on academic disciplines than do colleges of applied arts or technology. Am I mistaken? I am trying to determine the role of CEGEPs compared to colleges.
Mr. Allard: I would not say that you are mistaken, but I would like to qualify your statement somewhat. Quebec colleges also offer many technical programs. In some of them, including the one I head, 60 per cent of students are in technical programs. So our mission is clearly quite close to that of colleges outside Quebec.
CEGEPs also offer pre-university training, which is something not provided in colleges outside Quebec. However, Quebec CEGEPs offer a whole range of technical programs designed to get people into the labour market immediately following their training geared to its needs.
Mr. Saint-Jules: There is another difference between the training provided within Quebec and outside of Quebec. That is the whole area of vocational training, the trades. In Quebec, school boards no longer have responsibility for this type of training and apprenticeship, while in New Brunswick, Ontario and other Canadian provinces, even for anglophones, colleges are responsible for this type of training. That is another difference.
Senator Comeau: Have you had an opportunity to make any presentations to the Minister of Canadian Heritage? Have you described to her your suggestions or recommendations? Have you been invited to do so?
Mr. Allards: Not yet.
Senator Comeau: Have you requested to do so?
Mr. Saint-Jules: A number of initiatives have been undertaken, however, like the Association culturelle canadienne française, we have not managed to meet with the minister. However, I must add that a member of our board has an appointment with Ms. Frulla next week, and, in addition to speaking on behalf of his own college, he will speak on behalf of the Réseau.
Senator Comeau: Representatives from your association must see the minister.
Ms. Linda Savard (Director General, Réseau de cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada: We should mention that in the past, the Réseau did carry out some specific projects to include more members throughout the west. In the case of the Far-Ouest project, we mentioned the work done to help strengthen our networks in the provinces so that institutions there could gain provincial recognition more easily. That was done at the Department of Canadian Heritage. The people there are definitely aware of the issue, but we are far from achieving such awareness throughout the country.
Senator Comeau: We seem to be hearing a repetition of the comment made by the Minister for Canadian Heritage. She seems to deal with more important matters, but in my view, I fail to see what could be more important than education, early childhood, school boards and post-secondary education, which you have described today. She must be dealing with issues that we have no knowledge of at the moment. There seems to be a trend emerging here.
Mr. Saint-Jules: Education and francophones were not well served in the recent federal budget.
Senator Comeau: That maybe the explanation.
The Chairman: I would like to say something about this comment. Yet no program was eliminated, and the commitments remain the same.
Mr. Saint-Jules: I agree with you with respect to the commitments on official languages.
The Chairman: Everyone wants money, but the fact that we are not mentioned does not mean no services will be delivered. However, I do understand your point. You have read the budget. That is good.
Senator Léger: I am learning things this morning. First of all, I was thrown off by the word ``CEGEP.'' Generally speaking, we are always talking about minorities here. Perhaps Ontario calls then CEGEPs. In any case, you replied to that question.
There is a shortage of francophone teachers for vocational and technical programs, which come under your mandate. There will be employment opportunities everywhere: In the north, with its diamonds, in New Brunswick and Labrador and Nova Scotia, with their oil. We will need architects and cabinetmakers. So francophones and anglophones will go to work in Nunavut or in the Northwest Territories or in the Yukon, in these remote areas, and francophones will be entitled to equal treatment.
Is there is any hope of overcoming the shortage? I really experienced this myself in 1960, when physics or chemistry was being taught in French, but the text books were in English. We hear about high technology and globalization. Can you meet this challenge?
Mr. Saint-Jules: You raise a major challenge for us. You are quite right, we need skilled people. We need pedagogical material to teach in French and we need resource people as well.
What happens in many cases is that the labour market gobbles up francophones who can teach in such specialized areas. Because of their funding, colleges cannot pay as much as the labour market. That is one of the problems raised in our brief that colleges experience all the time. A highway engineer or even a mechanical adjustment technician will earn two or three times more than what the college can pay, because colleges are underfunded. The fact that these people have a technical skill as well as the ability to speak both languages means that they are gobbled up by the labour market. Colleges do not have adequate resources. When we ask for more funding for francophone institutions, we do so in order to deal with this type of problem. The fact is that we cannot compete with industry in this regard. So that is why we are often asking for more money. The resources are there, but we cannot hire these people, because we cannot pay them properly.
Mr. Allard: We have a project underway to develop pedagogical material in French. This is a complicated process. Of course, we will have to make some choices, we will not be able to meet all the needs. Nevertheless, we are trying to do something. We must continue to make progress in this regard, even though we know that we are far from achieving our objective. The Réseau intents to continue its efforts with the resources available to it.
Our role is to highlight these difficulties and to ensure that those who can afford to do so hear the message and may perhaps help us.
I am astonished at the vitality of francophone communities outside Quebec despite these tremendous difficulties. They surprise me every time. Their desire and determination to remain and grow in their own language encourage the entire francophone community in Canada to take part in their development.
It is true that the challenges are huge. It is not an easy matter and we see the same difficulties in the majority francophone community as well. For example, we have the same difficulty recruiting teachers in Quebec. The salaries are not the same as those paid by the high-tech sector, so we are having trouble attracting highly qualified teaching staff. It is difficult enough in Quebec, so you can imagine what the situation might be like elsewhere. This is a disturbing issue, but I do not think the answers and solutions are all that obvious.
Senator Léger: You just said a word; this cannot come just from the federal and provincial governments. If industry wants francophones to have equal opportunities in these areas where there are job openings at the moment — that is where people can find jobs to support themselves — perhaps industry should come on board as well.
Mr. Allard: That is why it is so important to offer training in French until people enter the labour market. If we train technicians, people who will have completed their training in French and who get a job in business, they may be concerned about the situation. If we stop providing training in French after high school, I think we have missed the boat.
The Chairman: I have a few questions. I drew some dollar signs in the margin beside some of your comments. The committee is not necessarily a funding mechanism, but we do take note of your comments in this regard.
I believe Senator Comeau touched on the question. Colleges and CEGEPS receive all their funding from the provincial governments. Am I mistaken? There are some initiatives occasionally.
Mr. Allard: Well, the funding comes mainly from the government in Quebec, except that the government does not fund all the activities of the colleges that go beyond their mandate. Colleges have to pay for a certain percentage of their activities using independent revenues. I am thinking of such things as training in industry, and the management of their facilities.
The Chairman: That is out of Quebec?
Ms. Savard: Outside Quebec, a number of provinces get transfers from the federal government and then the provinces provide the funding. The money comes from the province, but there was a transfer from the federal government to the provincial government in order to offset the funding shortage of these institutions.
The Chairman: When you talk about transfers, are you referring to equalization payments?
Mr. Saint-Jules: No, we are referring to federal-provincial agreements on education. This is not an equalization agreement. However, you have touched on an important point regarding francophone colleges in minority communities. Between 55 and 60 per cent of the resources of anglophone colleges in Ontario come from self-generated activities, while between 45 and 50 per cent of their revenues are from the government, from the province.
francophone colleges in minority communities do not have access to resources of this type. Barely 35 per cent of the resources of francophone colleges in Ontario come from sources other than the government. The market available to a francophone college is more limited than that of the anglophone colleges. Employers who send their employees for specialized training will usually send them to an anglophone college rather than a francophone college, because there is a network in place, there is a 35 or 40-year history of institutions offering this service.
By contrast, a new francophone college, which has barely been around for 10 years, must make its mark in the community, must demonstrate to employers that it is better to hire students with training in French rather than in English, because bilingualism is an asset in today's world. They have to demonstrate that their employees will get a better reception abroad if English is their second language, not their first, because this individual will have more affinity with Asians, Europeans or South Americans, who are also working in their second language when they work in English.
We have to demonstrate all of that to employers, to parents and to young people in order to attract them to francophone colleges. This takes resources, and the colleges do not always have them. That is why we are constantly coming back to the dollar sign.
The Chairman: It is much more difficult for a francophone college to try to get a sponsorship in industry. However, some industries provide in-house training. They will not necessarily look for people trained in colleges or CEGEPs. Perhaps that is why there is virtually nothing for francophones in colleges for jobs in the automobile industry, for example. Is that not so?
Mr. Saint-Jules: There are a few programs, but there are far fewer than there are in anglophone colleges. francophones are very interested in learning to become automobile mechanics, but they do their training in English. In this region, they go to Algonquin College or in the Toronto area, they go to other anglophone colleges, because the big industries work more in English.
So that is one of the problems we face — namely, to attract our people to our institutions by telling them that we can provide a training program that is just as good as the one offered in an anglophone college, with bilingualism as an additional asset. But we have to convince them of this. We have to convince employers to send their employees to francophone institutions.
In this regard, retraining programs for the unemployed is another area where francophone colleges in minority communities have a difficult time, because the Department of Human Resources does not provide good service to francophones. Often the department's concern is whether service in French is provided, even if young francophones are told to go and study in an anglophone college, the department thinks they have done their job. We do not agree with this.
The Chairman: So you have been receiving grants as a Heritage Canada organization. For how long?
Mr. Saint-Jules: Since 1995. Since Heritage Canada recognized the usefulness of what we have been doing and has supported us significantly, both in our operation and the various projects subsidized and carried out through them.
The Chairman: Is it an annual program or spread out over several years?
Mr. Saint-Jules: At the beginning, it was an annual program. We had a three-year program ending March 31, 2005 and we asked to have it extended or renewed on a three-year basis. As a matter of fact, Heritage Canada is increasingly granting us multi-year funding; we have at least two contribution agreements from Heritage Canada over a three-year period.
The Chairman: Is this information about how much you have been receiving and how much you have been asking for public?
Mr. Saint-Jules: Yes, but there is a clarification. What we received as part of the base funding agreement up until this year was $250,000. The amount that we asked to have extended for the next three years is $500,000.
Furthermore, Heritage Canada does enter into contribution agreements for particular projects. For example, the Far West project was entirely subsidized by Heritage Canada, with a total contribution of $900,000. But this was specific funding for a specific project aimed at helping the western provinces set up French-language services at the college level. The designation ``Far West'' was suggested by the local people since it excluded Manitoba, which already had a college-level institution that was functioning well.
The Chairman: It does not seem out of place because Quebec does have western festivals.
Mr. Saint-Jules: Yes, Ontario too.
The Chairman: You are asking for more money but do you think that the Department of Canadian Heritage or another federal entity has the responsibility for subsidizing colleges and CEGEPs?
Mr. Saint-Jules: The grant that we are asking for is not for the colleges and the CEGEPs but for the francophone communities. Our network is a pan-Canadian network of institutions working for the enhancement of post-secondary education at the college level.
The Chairman: I am not talking about the network but rather the funding of institutions as such.
Mr. Saint-Jules: This is often a difficult debate.
The Chairman: Coming back to your comment, you said that you thought it was logical that article 23 of the Charter would extend beyond primary and secondary levels. Other people claim that pre-school or kindergarten should be included. Do you consider your approach to be a logical one?
Mr. Saint-Jules: Yes.
The Chairman: Under your logic, then you would be willing to ask the federal government to get more involved in the funding of francophone colleges?
Mr. Saint-Jules: Yes.
The Chairman: Is this something that the federal government is now doing?
Ms. Savard: It does so partially in certain provinces but we would like to see this done throughout Canada for francophone institutions.
The Chairman: Is that a recommendation you are making?
Ms. Savard: Yes, it is indeed.
Senator Comeau: Have you evaluated the amount of money necessary to meet these objectives?
Ms. Savard: We have not done any calculations since the situation differs from one province to another. It is not our purpose to tell the provinces how they should provide education but rather to encourage them to do so. Each province is free to decide the best way of going about it. When we look at the approach taken in Nunavut or the Yukon as opposed to Ontario or Manitoba, we can see that they are quite different. That is why we have not yet done any calculations.
The Chairman: Ms. Savard, you are responsible for programs. What exactly does your work consist of?
Ms. Savard: I am director general.
The Chairman: This will be Mr. Saint-Jules. And what is your job, Mr. Saint-Jules?
Mr. Saint-Jules: I manage a certain number of special projects for which the network is subsidized. For example, I managed the Far-Ouest project as well as a project dealing with how young francophones finishing high school intended to continue their education. The purpose was to find out whether they were interested in continuing their education in French and where they wished to do so. I am also managing projects in collaboration with various institutions.
Senator Léger: I would like to know how many CEGEPs in Quebec and community colleges outside Quebec are included in your network. Generally speaking, what would the breakdown be?
Mr. Saint-Jules: All together, the network has 48 members including 31 CEGEPs in Quebec and 17 associations and colleges at the college level outside Quebec. In other words, all the institutions outside Quebec involved at the college level are members of the network.
There are three in Ontario; five in New Brunswick; one in Nova Scotia; one in Manitoba. That accounts for all the accredited institutions. There are also associations involved in occupational training and adult education in the other provinces.
Senator Léger: Your budget is distributed among the 31 CEGEPs in Quebec and 17 outside Quebec. If each were to get a fair share, then they would get one forty-eighth?
Mr. Saint-Jules: The $900,000 subsidy received from Heritage Canada for the Far West project was devoted entirely to the western provinces. The basic $250,000 fund includes money that was given to interprovincial collaboration projects.
One of the rules for the operation of the network is that one provincial institution is always twinned with another. It is not always an institution in Quebec with an institution outside Quebec but it will never be two Quebec institutions or two Ontario ones. For example, there are exchanges between New Brunswick and Manitoba, between New Brunswick and Ontario, between Ontario and British Columbia. There are also exchanges between Quebec and Ontario and between Quebec and New Brunswick.
Mr. Allard: The people you have in front of you account for almost all the permanent staff of RCCFC. There is the director general and a project director. The network also includes a secretary and an office in Ottawa. That is what the RCCFC is able to do with the basic funding it receives. The network then makes applications for funding and ensures that this money covers all the costs involved in this collaboration of the different colleges.
The Chairman: If there are no further questions, we shall conclude this morning's session. I would like to thank you, I think that you are doing a very useful and necessary job.
I would like to ask everyone except for the senators to leave the room. I would like our reporters to stay as well. It is for my own edification as well as to follow up on some of our conclusions.
Mr. Allard: We thank the committee for meeting us.
The committee continued in camera.