Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
National Finance
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of April 25, 2006
OTTAWA, Tuesday, April 25, 2006
The Standing Senate Committee on National Finance met this day at 9:42 a.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[Translation]
Mr. Till Heyde, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. As the clerk of the committee, it is my duty to proceed to the election of a chair. Is there a motion to that effect?
[English]
Senator Mitchell: I nominate Senator Day to be chairman.
Mr. Heyde: Are there any other nominations?
Seeing none, the question is on the motion of the Honourable Senator Mitchell that the Honourable Senator Day do take the chair of the committee.
Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Heyde: I invite Senator Day to take the chair.
Senator Joseph A. Day (Chairman) in the chair.
The Chairman: Thank you for that vote of confidence. I look forward to working with you and serving you in this position during the coming session.
Mr. Heyde is the new clerk for this committee. Cathy Piccinin has moved on to other things. We have quite a few changes. We also have new researchers, whom I will introduce when we come to that motion and you approve them. The committee is being fully reconstituted.
You have before you the proposed agenda for the organizing committee.
Item number 2 is the election of a deputy chair. Are there nominations for the position?
Senator Nancy Ruth: I nominate Senator Cools as deputy chair.
The Chairman: Are there any further nominations?
Senator Biron: I nominate Senator Murray as deputy chair.
[Translation]
Senator Murray: Historically, it has been the government's responsibility to appoint one of their members as deputy chair of this committee.
[English]
The Chairman: Senator Murray was nominated but he has pointed out that traditionally, someone on the government side normally holds the position of deputy chair. It is, however, without question that Senator Murray, who was chair of this committee for many years, would have done a fine job.
Senator Ringuette: Is it practice to nominate someone who is absent?
The Chairman: Yes, and Senator Cools has agreed to serve in this position.
It has been moved that nominations cease. Will all those in favour of that motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Some Hon. Senators: Yea.
Will those opposed to the motion say ``nay?''
As there is only one senator nominated, we will let Senator Cools know that she has been chosen as deputy chair of the committee.
Item number 3 deals with the subcommittee on agenda and procedure. This is to create the steering committee. The motion is that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation, and that the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings.
Senator Ringuette: I nominate Senator Eggleton.
The Chairman: The motion is to authorize the subcommittee to consult with the leadership.
Senator Ringuette: What happened to the democratic process?
The Chairman: Under the democratic process, I cannot consult on your behalf unless you give me the authority to do so.
Senator Ringuette: I so move.
The Chairman: All those in favour of the motion will signify by saying ``yea.''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item number 4 is that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand.
Senator Cowan: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: Item number 5 is authorization to hold meetings and print evidence when quorum is not present.
It reads that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the printing of evidence when quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Senator Dawson: That is the official opposition, I presume.
The Chairman: Yes. Would you like us to add that?
Senator Dawson: I just want to ensure that Senator Murray would not constitute quorum.
The Chairman: That is an interesting point. If we do not have ``official opposition,'' anyone who is not a member of the government side would fulfil the requirement. Since the government side has only two members, it is their attendance that we want to ensure.
Senator Murray: For the most part, the independents consider themselves non-aligned with either government or opposition.
Senator Eggleton: Why not include the word ``official?''
Senator Dawson: We do not have to correct it. They are not the opposition; we are the opposition.
The Chairman: Is it agreed that we do not have to add ``official?''
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Senator Cowan: I move motion number 5.
The Chairman: Will those in favour of the motion that has been moved by Senator Cowan signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chairman: The next motion deals with the financial report. It reads that the committee adopt the draft first report prepared in accordance with rule 104. This has been circulated. Rule 104 provides for a report within a certain number of days of the beginning of a new session on everything that was spent by this committee in the last session. I think the amount is quite small compared to that spent by most committees. The major aspects are transportation and communication, and professional and other services. That is due to travel to London on the accountability officers issue.
This must be filed in the Senate once you authorize me to do so.
Senator Murray: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
The next motion is with regard to research staff and reads that the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee, et cetera.
I have already consulted on your behalf in anticipation.
Senator Eggleton: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: I would like, on your behalf, to send a letter to Guy Beaumier and Odette Madore, who have been with us for a number of years.
Seeing no objection to that, I will do so.
The new leader of the Library of Parliament staff is Tara Gray, and she will be supported by Jean Dupuis and Lydia Scratch. This is the team that will be supporting us in our research.
Senator Ringuette: Is it possible to know why Mr. Beaumier, who has been doing tremendous work for this committee, was not reassigned? Is he retiring?
The Chairman: I understand that he has gone to a committee that does similar work in the House of Commons. The assignments are typically made without consultation with the senators or members of the House of Commons.
Senator Rompkey: It is called ``raiding.''
Mr. Heyde: The Library of Parliament makes the administrative assignments of the staff.
Senator Ringuette: We have no input?
Mr. Heyde: The committee can provide indications and suggestions, but it is ultimately the Library of Parliament that makes the assignments.
The Chairman: Mr. Beaumier has assured us that he will be available to help. In fact, he has already been helping Ms. Gray with the transition.
Senator Eggleton: It is good for them to get varying experience.
The Chairman: I do not think that going to a House of Commons committee from a Senate committee would be considered a promotion.
Senator Ringuette: From my perspective in the time that I have been on this committee, Mr. Beaumier has done excellent work for us. This is not a personal comment on the new research people, but I certainly would have liked to have kept him as our official researcher.
The Chairman: I had a similar feeling, which is why I suggested that I should write a letter that I will send to him as well as to the administration of the library, letting them know that we feel he and Odette Madore did a fine job.
Item number 8 is authority to commit funds and certify accounts. Whatever we do must be pursuant to the Financial Administration Act. In other words, if we do not have a budget that is passed by this group and by Internal Economy, we cannot do anything. This authorizes us, within the rules, to commit certain funds and do things on your behalf.
Senator Rompkey: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: Item number 9 deals with travel and reads that the committee empower the subcommittee on agenda and procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee. That is, of course, in consultation with the whips.
Senator Dawson: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item number 10 is designation of members travelling on committee business. This allows us, when members of our committee cannot attend a sitting of the Senate because they are away doing work for the committee, to designate that that is Senate business for the purposes of attendance.
This motion is to allow the subcommittee to so designate.
Senator Ringuette: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: Item number 11 is travelling and living expenses of witnesses. It reads that, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Senator Cowan: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item number 12 deals with electronic media coverage of public meetings and reads that the chair be authorized to seek permission from the Senate to permit coverage by electronic media of its public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings and that the subcommittee on agenda and procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
We must first get approval from the Senate on this.
Senator Eggleton: I so move.
The Chairman: Will all those in favour of the motion signify by saying ``yea?''
Hon. Senators: Yea.
The Chairman: The motion is carried.
Item 13 deals with the time slots for regular meetings.
They are the same as they have been. We would propose, if we are meeting on Wednesday evening, that we provide for a modest dinner beforehand, as was stated by our previous chair, Senator Murray.
Senator Eggleton: The first choice in each case. There might be a spillover.
The Chairman: That is correct. They are both time slots. When we have a lot of work to do, we will meet both days. Tuesday will be the primary day.
Other business?
Senator Murray: When I discovered that the government had been kind enough to reappoint me to this committee, I called our friends at the parliamentary library and asked them to dig up comments and recommendations that this committee had made at various times in the past.
They went back to the 36th Parliament, First Session, which would be from September 1997 to September 1999, and onward to the 38th Parliament, which was the one just preceding this. They looked at all the reports. The document they have provided covers 16 pages. They sent me some of the observations and recommendations that this committee had made. It could be a valuable document, and there is no reason I should keep it to myself. I had it produced in English only, but we might get it translated, if the committee is agreeable, and circulate it to all members, so that the better we might torment officials and ministers, as we have done in the past.
The Chairman: I think that would be an excellent tool for those of us now in the loyal opposition, and others.
Senator Murray: Without regard to political party, I think we have been pretty vigilant. I do not think I need to make a motion.
The Chairman: It is agreed.
Senator Murray: I believe the clerk can arrange to have it translated, or the library can do so.
The Chairman: Then we will circulate it immediately to everyone on the committee once it has been translated.
That leads us into a work program and plan and what we anticipate. A supply bill will be forthcoming soon. Main Estimates are out today, and the supply bill will flow from those. The supply bill will be introduced next week.
We would have our meetings on the Main Estimates. We are trying to have meetings next week with the President of the Treasury Board and officials so that we can generate a report, have an initial look at Main Estimates and outline some of the areas where we might want to go.
Once the Main Estimates are referred to this committee, it becomes part of our work plan for the year. We do not have to apply for a mandate. That is referred to us immediately by the government. We will be set to go next week on the Main Estimates.
Senator Murray: If I may, I understood that they passed a motion in the House the very first day to fast-track the supply bill to May 3. I think it has to be out by May 3.
The Chairman: We will have it introduced on May 4 in the Senate. That is two days' notice. That will put us into the next week. We spend next week on the Main Estimates.
The week following, we do not have referred to this committee the supply bill. As you know, the committee's work is looking at the Main Estimates. We take an initial look at it and compile a short report saying where we might go on this and what we see initially.
Some people take the view that that report should be presented and adopted by the Senate before the supply bill. Other people have a different point of view. It looks as if we will be able to have it adopted before the supply bill, which is two weeks hence. The supply bill will be going through the Senate and must be adopted before May 15. Right now, the government is operating on Governor General's warrants, which expire on May 15. The supply bill must be done by then or new warrants will be issued. I presume that we will try to get that done and the government will be anxious to have that through before May 15.
That is what we will be working on over the next two weeks. Next week we will meet for two days, if we can get the officials and the minister. The following week we might not have to, because the supply bill is not referred here. We might have a meeting on Tuesday to approve the report that will be circulated to you and make any necessary changes. Then we can file the report and it will be in the Senate before the supply bill is dealt with at third reading.
Senator Eggleton: Do we get the report right after that or do we have to wait until there is a budget bill?
The Chairman: The budget is circulated to everybody, but we do not study the budget unless we want to. We get the budget implementation bills that might be forthcoming. Last year there were three, based on the budget. We do not know how many there will be or when they are coming.
The budget will be next week. That does not drive the business as much as the budget implementation bills. There probably will be at least one before the end of June.
That is where we will be over the next while: supply, studying the Main Estimates and budget implementation. I do not believe that the government's intention is to send the accountability bill to us. At one time it was thought that it might come here.
An Hon. Senator: Where will that go?
The Chairman: I am hearing that it might go to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, but I do not know. This is all speculation. If you want to start lobbying to have it come here, that is entirely up to you, but right now we have no indication it will be. I think we will have a busy agenda over the next month with the items that we have.
Is there anything else to bring before this committee? I will file this report on your behalf. The Main Estimates will be referred to us automatically.
Senator Ringuette: We had done a considerable amount of work with regard to accountability. There was a draft report with a possible recommendation circulated at our last meeting, but our work stopped there.
Will we complete that report? It was a draft report, subject to review by the members of the committee. I would like to know. We cannot just leave it there.
The Chairman: Obviously, supply has priority over a policy study. I would like to ask each of you to consider whether we want to revive that work and then send a note off to me or catch me and let me know. We will have the steering committee sit down to talk about that.
It would take considerable work now because the Gomery report is out. We also have an accountability bill that provides for accounting officers. The entire issue that we studied is in the accountability bill.
You may want to think about how we can best handle the evidence and the information that we gathered.
Senator Cowan: That is why I wondered about it. I thought that there were at least some parts of the accountability bill that tie into work that this committee has done. There may be some that might have more legal or constitutional implications.
Senator Eggleton: Can the bill be separated out? Are there some parts that are relevant to financial accountability, to this committee's work versus other committees' work, coming here? Can one separate out a bill like that?
Senator Murray: I am far from being the procedural expert, but I think that the accountability bill amends various other statutes.
For the Senate's purposes, we could have an informal agreement.
The Chairman: We can talk to the leadership about that. Senator Nancy Ruth can take that discussion back. I believe there is an ongoing debate about where it should go.
The aspect of the accountability bill dealing with accounting officers is precisely the subject we were studying.
Senator Murray: I am sure the leadership on both sides knows what they are doing. The fact is there are important criminal law bills forthcoming, which I assume will be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. That will be a heavy burden for that committee.
There is another issue I would like to raise.
The Chairman: Does it deal with this subject or another subject?
Senator Murray: It is to deal with our agenda.
The Chairman: Could each of you send a note to me about that issue and any other items that you would like to see us look into? I will meet with Senator Cools, who is not here today. After consultations with the leadership and the third person on the steering committee, we will report back to honourable senators at the next meeting on some of the items we might want to study and where we see our time being used up until the end of June.
Senator Murray: Mr. Chairman, during the period of dissolution, Governor General's warrants were used to authorize approximately $15 billion in spending. Some of it was for use by the outgoing government and some by the incoming government. A large blue book that arrived in our offices detailed what it was for. I have looked at it. No item jumped off the page that suggested to me it was wrong or required special attention.
However, when we meet prior to the passage of the supply bill we should have that document before us. We should flag it and ask the Treasury Board people who are in charge of this to be prepared to come here to give us a brief explanation and possibly answer questions, if any occur to members of the committee. I do not think we should just let $15 billion in Governor General's warrants go by. At the same time, they might also enlighten us as to whether Treasury Board Vote 5 has been used and whether it was in compliance with our views on the use of that vote. We have done a fair amount of study on Governor General's warrants.
The Chairman: Yes, as well as the new Treasury Board regulations that were generated by our discussion on the use of Vote 5. This is emergency funding from Treasury Board.
We will let the people from Treasury Board know that we will be interested in this matter.
Senator Ringuette: In regard to the timing of our work and the accountability bill, I have the distinct impression that the Senate is not about to receive that bill, as it is being referred to the House of Commons standing committee. It is a bill that amends some 180 other acts of Parliament.
In the last few days, I have had discussions with some senior officers who would like to see some amendment reaffirming their reporting to Parliament status.
I suspect that even though the leadership will not provide us with the name of the committee to which this bill will be referred, there is still a considerable amount of time before the Senate receives it from the House of Commons.
The Chairman: We will get our priority work done first in terms of the supply bill and budget implementation bills. Then, if we do not have any other work and the bill has not been referred to us, we can revive the study by asking for direction from the Senate.
Senator Ringuette: I have an important bill before the Senate that I would like referred to this committee as soon as possible. Perhaps in your discussions with the leadership, Mr. Chairman, you could convey that message.
The Chairman: The clerk has pointed out that there is one other area that we will want to keep in mind. The Auditor General will be coming forward with her report on May 16. She will be touching on a number of areas. Chapter 1 of her report concerns the management of government financial information. The Canadian firearms program is looked into, as is the management of voted grants and contributions. This is interesting subject matter, much of which we have looked into in the past. It is another area that will keep us occupied for a considerable time.
The committee adjourned.