Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 13 - Evidence, March 26, 2007
OTTAWA, Monday, March 26, 2007
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 4:01 p.m. to study and report from time to time on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the act (the move of federal agency head offices and the impact on the application of the act).
Senator Maria Chaput (Chairman) in the chair.
[English]
The Chairman: Welcome to this meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Before we hear the witnesses' presentations, let me introduce the members of the committee. We have Senator Comeau, from Nova Scotia; Senator Murray, from Ontario; Senator Downe, from Prince Edward Island; and Senator Losier-Cool, from New Brunswick. I am from Manitoba.
[Translation]
We will first be considering the relocation of federal agency head offices and the impact on the application of the Official Languages Act.
[English]
To talk about the move of the federal agency head offices and the impact on the application of the Official Languages Act, we have before us representatives of a prime example of such moves. Veterans Affairs Canada moved from Ottawa to Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, more than 20 years ago. We have with us from the Corporate Services Branch, Mr. Keith Hillier; and from the Executive Services Directorate, Mr. John Gowdy.
Keith Hillier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services Branch, Charlottetown, Veterans Affairs Canada: I am pleased to be here today to offer insight that I hope will be useful in regards to your current study.
Ours is the only line department of the Government of Canada headquartered outside of the National Capital Region. Given the traditionally high proportion of Atlantic Canadians serving in our country's armed forces, many would argue that our location is very appropriate for the people charged with the well-being of our former military personnel. I know that you have already heard testimony regarding the relocation of the Canadian Tourism Commission to Vancouver. Theirs was a much more recent move; we at Veterans Affairs have the benefit of more history in telling our story.
There are other significant difference between their move and ours. Their head office moved to one of Canada's largest cities; we are in one of Canada's smallest cities. The Veterans Affairs headquarters staff numbers more than 10 times that of the Canadian Tourism Commission's Vancouver office. It can therefore be appreciated that the economic impact of our presence in Charlottetown would be infinitely more substantial than theirs in Vancouver.
Veterans Affairs Canada, VAC, has more than 1,000 permanent, year-round jobs, with an annual payroll in excess of $79 million. More than one third of these positions are at various management levels, including 23 executives, which means the average spending power per employee is quite high. The provincial portion of income tax paid by Veterans Affairs employees is in the $4-million range, a significant contribution indeed to the P.E.I. government's revenue.
Consider also other spinoffs. In the study undertaken several years ago, the Atlantic provinces' economic council estimated that the expenditures by Veterans Affairs on goods and services created or helped maintain another 1,000 jobs on the Island and contributed to at least an additional $20 million annually to the provincial economy.
[Translation]
The same study noted that in terms of the proportion of a city's working population in a specific industry, Veterans Affairs is more important to employment in Charlottetown than the oil and gas sector is to Calgary.
[English]
The relative dollar value of Veterans Affairs' presence in Prince Edward Island has been huge. I make this point in the clear understanding that economic implications are not part of the terms of reference of this committee, but I wanted to give a little background to honourable senators.
[Translation]
But it is crucial to appreciate that the Government of Canada placed a very significant footprint on the red soil of P.E.I. when it moved Veterans Affairs to Charlottetown. And the benefits went far beyond dollars and cents.
[English]
Perhaps equally profound were the implications for the official language minority community. It stands to reason that the impact of a much larger federal presence on a much smaller minority language community would be vastly more significant. This is exactly what has happened on Prince Edward Island. The francophone community on the Island represents about 5 per cent of the total population. In terms of both actual numbers and ratio, it is just slightly higher today than it was before Veterans Affairs came to Charlottetown.
What has changed, and changed quite dramatically, over these three decades is the status and profile of the French language and culture in the province. I believe it is generally agreed that the arrival of the substantial federal presence, with its inherent need for staff fluent in both English and French, triggered a wave of change that has strengthened the minority language community in P.E.I. tremendously.
I can speak from personal experience. Early in my public service career, before Veterans Affairs came to the Island, I worked for two years in Prince Edward Island. The francophone population at that time was virtually invisible, struggling for recognition. It had very little representation in the government offices of the 1970s and there was little sensitivity in the community to providing services in both official languages.
[Translation]
Fast forward two decades. In 1994 an appointment to a senior position at Veterans Affairs brought me back to the Island. I found that during my absence the francophone community in the province had undergone a dramatic transformation.
[English]
No longer was it virtually invisible. It had established a strong and obvious presence, both in public sector offices an on the streets of Charlottetown. There is no doubt in my mind that the arrival of Veterans Affairs has made all the difference.
By law, in accordance with Part IV of the Official Languages Act, the headquarters of any Government of Canada department must maintain a very high standard of communication with and service to the public in both official languages. This applies regardless of where the head office is located and it is incumbent on the senior officials of the department to ensure that this is achieved without fail.
By all accounts, our department has been remarkably successful in this regard. At present, 99 per cent of the staff in our head office who occupy bilingual positions that service the public fully meet the language requirements of their jobs. Coast to coast, client satisfaction surveys reveal an extremely high approval level for the quality of all aspects of our services. The latest survey reported 97 per cent satisfaction on the language of choice.
The department consistently receives positive reviews from the Official Languages Branch of the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency and we have been cited on occasion for examples of best practices. Treasury Board has also singled out our official languages performance, giving us notable ratings. Whenever deficiencies have been identified, prompt and decisive action has been taken to correct them.
Veterans Affairs Canada is 100 per cent compliant with the language targets at the executive level. The incumbents in all 22 of the bilingual executive positions in Charlottetown fully meet the requirements. Furthermore, 12.6 per cent of our francophone employees are working in the executive feeder group, that is to say the two management levels below the executive cadre.
[Translation]
Clearly a positive sign for the future.
[English]
The department's relocation to Charlottetown took place over several years, allowing time for a new building to be constructed and for recruitment and training of employees. Ultimately, fewer than 50 of the Ottawa-based headquarters staff chose to relocate. Virtually all others found alternative employment positions elsewhere in the National Capital Region. There is nothing unusual here. Experience shows that whenever jobs are relocated, whether in government, business or industry, the vast majority of those affected choose not to move even when generous incentives are offered.
[Translation]
But in P.E.I. a huge door of opportunity was opened, especially for Acadian and francophone islanders.
[English]
There were, and continue to be, some linguistic challenges along the way. Addressing them has required both creativity and dedication on an ongoing basis.
As I was not with Veterans Affairs at the outset, I will focus my remarks on the events during the past 12 years. When I arrived in Charlottetown in 1994, there were still a significant number of vacancies for bilingual staff and we were not getting many applications. To address this discrepancy, an outreach program was launched. In concert with the Public Service Commission, we went out into the community, particularly the area where most of the Acadian population is concentrated, and made presentations aimed at facilitating applications for employment within the federal government.
[Translation]
We found that a little help with the application process went a long way. Such things as explaining the meaning and importance of a ``statement of qualifications,'' advising on the completion of application forms, and offering guidance in preparing resumes to suit the criteria of the federal environment.
[English]
The department needed people who met the language qualifications and we knew they were out there. It was really just a matter of making things mesh. Our initiatives were an unqualified success, not just for Veterans Affairs but for other departments and agencies as well.
Today, over 12 per cent of new hires for all federal public service positions in Prince Edward Island are francophones. Not surprisingly, French is the first language of 12 per cent of the departmental staff of our headquarters. Twelve per cent is more than double the francophone representation in the general population of the Island.
Our department has had a strong history of sponsoring awareness activities with the Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin, a leading advocate of francophone culture on the Island. As well, we have partnered with the Société éducative de l'Île- du-Prince-Édouard, an Acadian-based organization promoting secondary and post-secondary education for francophones.
[Translation]
Such initiatives have enabled Acadians to maximize the advantage of their linguistic duality. Veterans Affairs has been the catalyst — I would argue — that has created the environment conducive to the use of French in Prince Edward Island.
[English]
Education for francophone children in the first language, previously only available in the small, predominantly Acadian region around Wellington, is now firmly established throughout the province. Today, 704 students are enrolled in six francophone schools across the Island. For a small and overwhelmingly anglophone province, that is a very significant number.
L'école François-Buote in Charlottetown opened with a total of three students at the same time that Veterans Affairs Canada relocated to Prince Edward Island. This totally French school recently celebrated its 25th anniversary and its current enrolment is 228 students. Since 1993, there have been 121 graduates from François-Buote, which serves kindergarten through grade 12. Our department and the Government of Canada overall is reaping the benefits, as many of these graduates are now employed in the public sector.
The school is also part of a larger cultural centre, Carrefour de l'Isle-Saint-Jean — another real success story and an important resource for the francophone community.
Also on the education front, Veterans Affairs Canada, in cooperation with the provincial government, has sponsored the creation of a home-grown institution for second language training on the Island, a great benefit to both levels of government and the clients they serve.
[Translation]
All of this, I believe, has effectively spawned an unprecedented demand for French immersion in the English school system.
[English]
Elsewhere in the community, we have seen the beginning of a French-language Toastmasters group, which was in fact founded by a group of Veterans Affairs employees. Our staff have also provided critical mass that has enabled the establishment, survival and growth of such francophone institutions such as le Club Richelieu and le festival Port- Lajoie, which did not exist prior to the departmental headquarters coming to the island.
[Translation]
But what about French as a language of work, in a province where francophones constitute only five per cent of the population? Yes, indeed, there are some challenges.
[English]
Admittedly, the use of French in our workplace is not as widespread as it is in the National Capital Region, yet it is much more prevalent than many might expect. As you are no doubt aware, legislative changes in 1998 amended certain language of work requirements for locations outside of the National Capital Region and those had some effect at the Charlottetown office.
[Translation]
Notwithstanding, Veterans Affairs recognizes that it is unique among federal departments in being headquartered outside the National Capital Region. Accordingly, there has been a determined effort by management to maintain an environment conducive to speaking French.
[English]
A wide variety of initiatives have combined to produce a positive and encouraging atmosphere. I believe it is especially noteworthy that these depend largely on goodwill rather than on the force of law. One such example would be our innovative second-language work assignment program. It has offered assignment opportunities designed to provide bilingual employees with challenging and productive language experience. At the same time, it has helped the department boost its bilingual capacity to a stronger, more proficient level.
In the workplace, we also encourage our staff to seek opportunities to practise, maintain and improve their French language skills. The weekly Club-Dîner offers a lunch-time opportunity to converse in French in an informal setting. Our ``For the Love of French'' program offers a more intensive experience combining classroom and computer-assisted learning.
[Translation]
Our very dynamic official languages champions have been part of the success story as well, and we are quite proud that Prince Edward Island hosted the first meeting of departmental official language champions ever held outside the National Capital Region.
[English]
Just last week our champions were instrumental in organizing observances of Rendez-vous de la Francophonie, an opportunity to reaffirm and celebrate our commitment to French language and culture.
Our francophone and Acadian staff are clearly proud of their heritage and do not hesitate to show it. This event was just one small episode, but I believe it amply demonstrates the linguistic transformation of the public sector in Prince Edward Island in recent years.
[Translation]
All in all, our department's headquarters in Charlottetown is an inclusive and productive place to work, for anglophones and francophones alike. The provisions of Part V of the Official Languages Act notwithstanding, we at Veterans Affairs Canada are committed to ensuring that our workplace respects, welcomes, and actively promotes the use of either official language. And it works!
Madam Chair, I thank you for your attention and I am now ready to answer your questions.
The Chairman: Senator Downe told me on several occasions that this was a success story and he was entirely correct; it is a success. Could you tell us if any challenges or initiatives were less successful, and if so, elaborate on them?
Mr. Hillier: One of the major challenges in P.E.I. is actually outside the workplace because the population is primarily English-speaking. It can sometimes be difficult to get educational and other provincial services in French. These are challenges, but for every challenge there is a potential solution. Sometimes we have trouble getting a lot of bilingual employees; there always seem to be competitions for bilingual positions, especially for assistants, clerks and managers.
We work with the universities, however, and have developed summer programs for the students giving them the opportunity to get some good work experience. But, of course, there are challenges.
[English]
Maybe I have a bias, but I think some of the challenges tend to be outside of the environment where we cannot control them. For example, in terms the French culture, it is a very small population, 5 per cent, and you will not have the same cultural events or milieu in French at the same level as in Ottawa, Montreal or Quebec City.
John Gowdy, Director, Executive Services Directorate, Veterans Affairs Canada: I would add that, after 25 years in human resources in Veterans Affairs in Charlottetown, I have observed that Mr. Hillier is right. The social and cultural life outside the workplace for many francophones who came from Ottawa or Montreal or other places was difficult, and it caused family stress and strain. For as many that did not work, there were many that did work, and I would say that most did work and there are many francophones who remain in Prince Edward Island and remain employed with the department or remain in their retirement years still living there happily.
[Translation]
Senator Tardif: I am glad to see that the experience in P.E.I. was positive, especially from an economic standpoint. I can understand that in a province with a smaller population the influx of a thousand new people may just be enough to provide a critical mass.
What worries me the most is that throughout Canada, however, linguistic duality nevertheless seems to have lost ground. In Ottawa, the department's employees were entitled to work in French, and because of the relocation to P.E.I., and due to the fact that Charlottetown is not a designated bilingual area, they no longer have the right to work in French.
How do you balance wanting to stimulate the economy in certain areas with a desire to have a federal presence outside Ottawa? How do you do this, and at the same time respect every part of the Official Languages Act? I am concerned about this because with every relocation there seems to be this type of setback.
Mr. Hillier: I think that it is a question of respect. In Charlottetown, the management team decided to keep the same rules that applied in the National Capital Region. All our publications and our work tools are available in French and English; and I think it is working well.
You are right; the law did change a few years ago, but we decided to continue to respect the spirit of the legislation. Now, as far as policies are concerned, it is not my role to comment; that is a question you should ask the previous and current governments. There are still challenges, but I should add that I spent 11 years in Ottawa and I think that the same could be said of Ottawa as of Charlottetown.
In Charlottetown, you hear some people speaking French at the office, and others English. In meetings, both languages are spoken and the Charlottetown office operates just like an office located on Wellington Street or Metcalfe Street in Ottawa.
Senator Tardif: I have a supplementary question. I would like to commend you for having tried to create an atmosphere where French-speaking employees are able to work in their language. Are you saying that French-speaking staff can take part in meetings in French? Can they meet with their supervisors in French? Are performance appraisals conducted in French if desired?
Mr. Hillier: We try to do our best, but there are no regulations. It is a matter of respect. Most times, if an employee asks for an interview or an appraisal in French, we try to make the necessary arrangements.
Senator Tardif: It is all about being willing.
Mr. Hillier: You are absolutely right.
Senator Tardif: Do you think it would be a good idea to implement regulations supporting the application of Part V of the Official Languages Act?
Mr. Hillier: That is a political issue, and the government's responsibility.
[English]
Mr. Gowdy: I would add that I work in human resources, and I found myself last year in a situation in our little management team of five people as the only anglophone, so the meetings were conducted in French. The complexion has slightly changed, but truly it is back and forth, or one or the other, because all of us understand French. I happen to be the weakest link, but when I was the only person in fact the meetings were conducted completely in French. That does not take place in every work unit at Veterans Affairs in Charlottetown, but I can speak from experience that when the numbers suffice it does happen.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I would like to continue along the same lines and talk about the comments you made about your success story. Obviously, the environment is very important, I agree with you there. I often read La Voix acadienne, the French-language newspaper in P.E.I., and I know that there is a great sense of vitality about it.
Would we be talking about the same success story had the relocation been to a major urban centre such as Calgary or Saskatoon? Or does P.E.I.'s relative isolation and small population contribute to this being a success? You used the word ``respect'' and I believe you, but when you are lost in a critical mass. . . .
Mr. Hillier: It may indeed have been tougher in a big city like Calgary because the impact would not have been the same as it is in small regions like Prince Edward Island. So it is more a question of leadership and the workplace.
I have worked in a number of towns and cities in Canada including Winnipeg, Halifax, Ottawa and St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador, and in my opinion it is more challenging in cities that are bigger than Charlottetown.
Senator Losier-Cool: Did you have trouble finding bilingual staff?
Mr. Hillier: No, we did not, most of the time. But for some professions, and in some situations where highly specific expertise is required, it is more difficult. We get a number of applicants for each position. My colleague might be able to give you a better answer about staffing in Charlottetown.
[English]
Mr. Gowdy: I would concur with what Mr. Hillier has said. It depends on the occupation. There simply are not the numbers there. For those living in central Canada to compete for a process in Prince Edward Island, obviously it means a relocation. Sometimes that is more difficult for families to agree to, when they pull themselves away from their extended families and their social and other lives. It is without doubt a problem, but it is something that has never stopped us from recruiting.
Senator Losier-Cool: Could you tell me what percentage of the executive level is bilingual?
[Translation]
Mr. Hillier: Every administrative position is bilingual.
[English]
We are 100 per cent compliant with the requirements. I would add that the new staffing regime that has come in under the auspices of the Public Service Commission of Canada will be opening up more positions to all Canadians and will enhance our opportunity for recruiting both anglophone and francophone employees.
Having been around Charlottetown for 12 years and having spent 11 years in this city, I do not see a huge difference in terms of finding qualified staff. The advantage we have in Charlottetown is that once we are able to attract people, we can generally keep them. When we get good people, we can normally hold on to them for a significant period of time. In Ottawa, we tend to steal from each other around town.
[Translation]
Senator Comeau: I would like to come back to what Senator Tardif said and her misgivings about the departmental relocations and the potential for a setback in the area of official languages in Canada. I share her concern. It would suggest that bilingualism in Canada is of no value except in certain specific places like Ottawa, Moncton, probably Montreal, but that in the rest of the country, bilingualism is less important. Had Veterans Affairs Canada decided not to relocate to Prince Edward Island because it is not a bilingual region, in my opinion, that would have been a tremendous loss. The message your department is putting out there is that you can have a department outside the major bilingual cities.
And I think it is very positive that the government has laid down roots in areas such as Prince Edward Island. It would have been particularly challenging for you because you are not in a region which is considered francophone. And you are even quite a long way away from the Évangéline area. I would like to congratulate you for having chosen Charlottetown, which is an English-speaking city, and for your willingness to ensure that both official languages are respected.
You have relocated to a city which is more or less anglophone, and quite a distance from any francophone area. What sort of relationship do you have with the Évangéline region? How can you contribute to advancing their cause involving the recognition of linguistic duality?
[English]
Mr. Hillier: Certainly we worked with the educative society in Wellington and we worked on a number of projects, both federal and provincial, through an initiative called the Knowledge Economy Partnership going back to the early to mid-1990s. We found that some of our employees, while they are in positions in Veterans Affairs, are also in significant leadership positions in the community. Many of the people who work with us are also community leaders.
Some things we have done have been very simplistic, such as computers for schools. We have helped with programs in the school. We have a need from time to time for language instructors and tutors so we go out into the community. Probably the best intervention into the community is the people of the community saying, ``This is an okay place to work; I can work here and I can work in the language of my choice.'' My scheduling assistant, who made sure I was here today, is from the Wellington region. In fact, she travels about an hour each day from Wellington to Charlottetown to work at Veterans Affairs Canada. There are many other people working in the Wellington area also.
As with the public services as a whole, we have some demographic challenges, but we also see those as opportunities to ensure that the linguistic duality is maintained. We will be working not only with anglophone institutions but also with institutions such as the University of Moncton.
[Translation]
As well as other universities across Canada, so that there are plenty of employees who are 100 per cent bilingual.
[English]
There has been much outreach on an unofficial basis. As I noted in my remarks, Madam Chair, we had a problem a number of years ago when we had vacancies because people were not applying. We thought that something was wrong because we knew they were out there. Prince Edward Island is a small place where everyone talks to everyone else. We knew they were out there and that is why we took the initiative to go to the Public Service Commission. We put on presentations in the Acadian communities to let people know about the jobs in the federal government, how to apply through the Public Service Commission and how to prepare a resumé. To many people in communities across the country who had not worked in the federal milieu, such things as acronyms and statements of qualifications were very foreign.
Senator Comeau: Over the years, many communities, such as Wellington, have lost their French heritage and have adopted the other official language.
Senator Murray: It is called English.
Senator Comeau: Yes, I was trying to think of the word.
One of the values of having a department such as yours established in an area is that it engrains in people the value of possibly returning to school to relearn the language of their grandparents. I suppose that having the numbers we currently have in Charlottetown might serve as incentive for some people to learn the language of their ancestors.
Mr. Hillier: I can relate to the senator's comment because I am married to an Acadian woman.
Senator Comeau: Good for you. . . . you married well.
Mr. Hillier: Thank you. I do have a window into the community of which you speak. Today, many Acadians are seeing a revitalization of their language and a renewed interest in their heritage. They see employment tunnels where linguistic duality is an asset, whether working for the Government of Canada or for the private sector. During the summer months, they see their kids from French-language schools working with us under the federal program and as co-op students. There has been a renewal on an individual basis but there is a momentum to gain that language. Language is part of the heritage of the Acadian people in Prince Edward Island.
Senator Comeau: Judging from what I have heard, Veterans Affairs Canada has been instrumental in helping with that value that people attach to their future. They see Veterans Affairs as a positive means of re-embracing their history.
Mr. Hillier: Yes, very much so.
[Translation]
Senator Murray: What Mr. Hillier just said about the Acadian and francophone P.E.I. community is very interesting.
During our studies on education in a minority setting, I remember we had to face the fact that fewer than 60 per cent of rights holders are enrolled in francophone schools. It would be interesting to see the exact figures for Prince Edward Island to see if the situation has improved in that particular province.
[English]
Mr. Hillier, our briefing notes state that there are approximately 3,766 employees of Veterans Affairs, 1,166 of whom work at the headquarters in Charlottetown. Do you know how many of the remaining 2,600 work in Ottawa or in the National Capital Region?
Mr. Hillier: Mr. Gowdy has those figures, but I believe there are about 159 employees working in the Ottawa area.
Senator Murray: Where are the others?
Mr. Hillier: We are a decentralized department and have approximately 900 to 1,000 people at the only federally owned hospital, which is in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue in Montreal. We have more than 40 points of service. We are located in many Canadian cities and towns, large and small. We are located at many Canadian Forces bases, and we also have a number of regional offices. Being thus decentralized, our staff are located across the country to service our clients, who are located across Canada.
Senator Murray: That is good, but you see what I am getting at. I want to be satisfied that Charlottetown is truly the headquarters of Veterans Affairs and not just the supposed headquarters, with the real action being elsewhere — in Ottawa, for example.
Mr. Hillier: I would say that about 40 to 50 of the 159 employees are located in direct service. As you know, we have a district office located in the Billings Bridge Plaza to serve the Ottawa region. As well, we have a small office in Gatineau, Quebec. With National Defence Headquarters on our doorstep, many of the staff in Ottawa are involved in direct service delivery to clients.
In direct response to the question, the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs Canada, Suzanne Tining, is in the process of relocating to Prince Edward Island and the associate deputy ministers live on Prince Edward Island. There is no doubt that the headquarters are truly in Charlottetown.
Senator Murray: I am glad to hear that. It is helpful that both of you have appeared today because you have observed the situation in Charlottetown for so long and from various perspectives; and you are there now. Although this might be a difficult question, I would like your comments: If the government were to send you to Vancouver or Guelph or Calgary with another agency, what advice would you give to the government based on the experience of Veterans Affairs in Charlottetown in making official languages policies and laws work?
Mr. Hillier: My answer would be somewhat biased but if I were to go, I would probably take along some of the best practices from Veterans Affairs Canada. It is always notable when agencies such as Treasury Board and the Commissioner of Official Languages cite you in their annual report as having gotten it right.
My advice to someone moving to a new agency would be that you have to understand the true goals of official languages, what linguistic duality means and what it means to be part of Canada.
Perhaps I am the eternal optimist, but where there is a will there is a way. I go back to the management team that predates my arrival at Veterans Affairs Canada. People could have taken a defeatist attitude, given that francophones encompass only 5 per cent of the population, and said that they would never have enough people. I do not want to keep this P.E.I.-centric, but if I look back to some of the staffing I have done at the executive level, I have been able to attract francophones from other parts of the country.
Senator Murray: It was not always so, was it?
Mr. Hillier: No.
Senator Murray: In the early going, people working in Ottawa generally, but francophones in particular, did not want to move to Charlottetown.
Mr. Hillier: I have moved seven times to different cities in my federal career, but I know there are always people who cannot move because they have various family obligations or they want to stay close to their community. You find that in francophone communities as well as in other communities.
We have found that in addition to being able to recruit on Prince Edward Island and to go out actively, we have been able to attract people from New Brunswick, particularly from the Acadian north shore. We have had a lot of interest. Many of our people come from the north shore of New Brunswick. We have been working there, and we also have a significant number from the Acadian area in Cape Breton.
Senator Murray: You cannot do better than that.
Mr. Hillier: My director general of information technology comes from a small Acadian community outside of Yarmouth. We have been able to attract people not just from Prince Edward Island but from other parts of the country as well.
Mr. Gowdy: If I may add something, I was in Prince Edward Island before the government of the day made the announcement of the move. My wife and I moved from Belleville, Ontario, to Charlottetown with a small child in 1977.
When the move started to take place in P.E.I., it was terribly exciting. If it were Guelph or Orangeville or Vancouver tomorrow, people looking for work would have to weigh the pros and cons of their own situations. However, in the case of moving to Charlottetown, building that organization up and recognizing that so many people from Ottawa did not come, it was exciting in those days recruiting people, regardless of French and English, and making things work. There was a sense of adventure.
I am sorry, Senator Downe, I am not an Islander, but I arrived and there was a level of excitement and cooperation from everyone in the community to make this thing work. It was a wonderful time in those days. My family grew from one child to five in those years, and we were busy at work and at home.
Senator Murray: I will end on this. I have a quotation here that is more than 20 years old, but I will put it on the record anyway, from the Auditor General of 1986, talking about the transfer of Veterans Affairs Canada to Charlottetown.
We found that, in addition to tangible problems, there is a pervasive view that the move and related events have created a situation of extreme organizational instability to the point that they have reduced the ability of staff, individually and collectively, to adapt to further adjustments.
Was that true 20 years ago? If so, have you gotten over it?
Mr. Hillier: I joined in 1994, so I will let the Auditor General's comments stand on the record as stated. I do not believe that that is the case today.
[Translation]
Senator Tardif: I have a comment and a question. I read that one of the factors which made this experience successful was the provincial government's willingness to have a francophone school and to allow those relocating to have access to an education in French. So, clearly, the province's willingness to cooperate certainly helped. Perhaps, in the future, when other agencies relocate we need to make sure that other provincial governments cooperate like that before moving ahead. That is something that we may wish to monitor.
The other point, and I do not want to be negative, because I agree with the fact that relocations are important, is that I have concerns about linguistic duality and the official languages.
Of the 900 people who relocated to Charlottetown between 1976 and 1977, 100 of them or perhaps more were French-speakers. You said that there was a problem, that it was hard outside the workplace to find socio-cultural activities. What proportion of those 100 French-speakers who relocated to Charlottetown was assimilated?
I know that it is possible to stimulate the local community and to make an effort to increase the level of linguistic duality; but there is also the possibility, as Senator Comeau point out, that these people will lose their language and be assimilated. So, there are perhaps 80 per cent of those 100 who moved who were assimilated and whose children, 20 years later, do not speak French.
Unless we lay the necessary groundwork, and unless we go to great lengths to save the language and culture, will we not be increasing the likelihood of assimilation because of this type of relocation?
[English]
Mr. Hillier: First, there is always the risk of assimilation. However, in fact, I think the community has grown. With the population the size it is, it does not host the cultural events, either in English or in French, that one would see in a city of this size.
I spent a number of years as the champion of official languages for Veterans Affairs on a national basis. As part of that, I spent some time in the francophone and Acadian communities, going to numerous events, some of which were educational and some social.
I think it has grown; but the reality is that it is Prince Edward Island. If you go to your supermarket on a Saturday, you will probably have more difficulty finding someone to serve you en français than when I lived here in Orleans, where I could live my life completely en français.
I might add that with Veterans Affairs in Charlottetown there was a fairly significant spike in the percentage of children that started enrolling in French immersion. They saw that as a career opportunity: if I study French, I will have an opportunity. In fact, you do get some services en français in the general milieu, maybe not as a policy of the particular retailer but because the people working there have come through the French immersion program. I do not have the statistics on the enrolment, but I asked somebody about it before coming here.
I do not want to leave you with a view that there are not any challenges; there are. However, if you compare the situation 20 years ago and the situation today, if you speak to most francophones or Acadians, they will tell you it is significantly easier to function now in the language of their choice.
Senator Downe: I thank the assistant deputy minister. He gave a wonderful presentation today that summed up correctly the situation.
As we all know, Veterans Affairs Canada's responsibilities are to serve veterans, their dependents, members of the Canadian Forces and RCMP. The secondary benefit has been the employment and opportunities for Prince Edward Island. I understand there are 1,300 permanent positions in Charlottetown. Is that correct?
Mr. Hillier: Yes; in the report you have, we say in excess of 1,000 positions. Some of the positions we have are indeterminate. We have a number of term employees, as well as casual employees for special projects. We have some employees who work part time as well. However, Mr. Gowdy will tell you that we have over 1,300 people on the payroll who will receive a cheque this week.
Senator Downe: Does that include summer students?
Mr. Hillier: No.
Senator Downe: You hire about 100 of those, I understand. Are most of those students bilingual?
Mr. Hillier: Some are and some are not. We strive to look at linguistic duality as well as employment equity. We want to ensure that we are reaching out to the visible minority communities and the Aboriginal community in particular. We feel that if we can reach out to the students and give them a positive work experience, they may consider us as an employer of choice when they finish their studies at university.
Senator Downe: That is a good plan
Senator Murray referred to what the Auditor General said back in 1986. The reverse, I would argue, is true now. Because of the limited opportunities for employment in Charlottetown, there is not the constant movement between departments, so you keep a lot of the corporate memory and you have low turnover and high retention. I assume your training costs are therefore much lower than those of other federal departments.
Mr. Hillier: Our turnover is quite a bit lower. As a case in point, when there was the high tech boom here in the National Capital Region and some of my colleagues were having great struggles competing with the private sector during that boom, the attrition rate in my IT shop, which is around 175 people, was 4 per cent.
Senator Downe: I think the most significant impact of Veterans Affairs has been the unintended strengthening of the Acadian community and the francophone community in Prince Edward Island. There is no question you have it absolutely right. The Charlottetown of 1970 is completely gone. It is completely different now. It is much more language friendly than it had been. It is not perfect, it is not Ottawa, but the progress has been tremendous. Thank you.
The Chairman: Thank you so much four your presentation. It was very good. It answered many of our questions.
[Translation]
We are going to suspend for a few minutes and we will resume with new witnesses.
(The committee suspended.)
(The committee resumed.)
The Chairman: As part of our study on the relocation of federal agency head offices we will now welcome, in a round-table format, representatives from two francophone community organizations exposed to this type of relocation: to begin with, we have the President of the Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin in Prince Edward Island, Mr. Edmond Richard, and his Director General, Lizanne Thorne, and then we have the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, with Mr. François Dornez, Community Deputy, and Ms. Marie-France Kenny, former president. The Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise was invited to appear before us because of Farm Credit Canada's relocation from Ottawa to Regina in 1992.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. We are on a fairly tight schedule this afternoon, due to the fact that, exceptionally, the Senate is sitting this evening at 6 p.m. So, I would ask you to respect the time limit you have been given for your presentations, and I thank you in advance.
Edmond Richard, President, Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin: Madam Chair, I will be as concise as possible. The Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin is the P.E.I. Acadian francophone alliance. It was founded in 1919 and is comprised of over 1,200 individual members with a total of six regional committees.
We are pleased to be appearing before the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Your study on the relocation of federal agency head offices is of particular interest to us as a francophone community in a minority setting. Under your mandate, you have focused on the relocation of the Veterans Affairs Canada department to Charlottetown in the early 1980s. This relocation had a major impact on our community life and I hope to be able to explain this to you today.
From the outset, I think it is important to tell you that the relocation and the presence of the head office have been positive for the P.E.I. francophone and Acadian community. Indeed, today, 25 years later, the contribution of the Veterans Affairs department and its employees to the linguistic vitality of Charlottetown and of the Island's francophone community is of the utmost importance.
Coming to Charlottetown in 1979 and thinking you were going to live in French was a tough call. It required a great deal of courage and tenacity. The P.E.I. French-language school board was set up 11 years later in 1990, the school community centre, the Carrefour de l'Isle-Saint-Jean, was founded 12 years later in 1992, and only 20 years later was the French services legislation passed in 1999 by the P.E.I. government. At the time, the P.E.I. government only tolerated education in French, even at the Évangéline school in a region with an Acadian majority. The French- speaking public servants' reluctance at the time was to be expected, but all things said and done, those people who decided to settle in Prince Edward Island, and in particular the francophones and people hired by the department, played a key role in the development of a French-language school in Charlottetown in 1980.
Furthermore, the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada's testimony on November 20, 2006, before your committee is evidence of the fact that Veterans Affairs Canada's relocation, by and large, was well received by their members.
The testimony attests to the francophone community's dynamism over the past quarter century. The development of schools and community school centres has made living in French easier, despite the fact that the francophone community is a minority.
Veterans Affairs' relocation was, for the host community — in this case francophones in Charlottetown — beneficial both in terms of creating well-paid new jobs and fostering francophones' cultural and community development. It would not be untrue to say that the arrival of the Department of Veterans Affairs forced the provincial government's hand at precisely the time Charlottetown's French-language school François-Buote was to open its doors. So, for the past 25 years or more, a relationship based on partnership has been built between the Department of Veterans Affairs and the francophone and Acadian community in the Charlottetown region.
We will answer your questions to the best of our abilities in terms of the mandate you set out in your working document. However, many questions will require taking a harder look at the current mechanisms which may or may not be forcing federal institutions to ask themselves the right questions at the right time concerning the impact of their decisions on the development of official languages minority communities.
The title of your study does a good job at highlighting the fact that the renewal of the Official Languages Act heightens departments' obligations to participate in the development and enhanced vitality of our communities. The issue you raise concerning the relocation of Government of Canada agency head offices is important because it forces us to look at the role the Government of Canada plays when it comes to francophone and Acadian community life.
Before even hazarding a response to the questions raised by the Senate committee, the SSTA would like to discuss a fundamental and ongoing problem which is delaying the full implementation of the Official Languages Act, and by this I am referring to the head offices' failure to coordinate the array of initiatives which target and have an impact on communities.
Who has control over government restructuring? The nine issues raised by the Senate committee are of the utmost importance. However, they reveal a basic anomaly within the federal institutions of government. There seems to be a lack of central structure to assess or measure the impact of government initiatives on communities, a body which would be responsible for implementing key parts of our response to questions raised specifically in relation to the relocation of Canadian government head offices.
Obviously, Treasury Board has jurisdiction when it comes to job descriptions, and the designation and staffing of employees who undergo change due to a relocation from the National Capital Region to regions which are not designated bilingual.
Who is responsible for assessing the impact of the obligations under Part VII? Once again, we share the same misgivings Senator Tardif had when she said in her speech in the Chamber on October 20, 2005, that the motion's objective is to guarantee that the federal government will not have to intervene by way of order in council with respect to language of work when it relocates its services to regions that are not designated bilingual. The motion establishes clear policies and guidelines the government will be required to comply with when relocating services to regions not designated bilingual.
Indeed, the government should stop being reactive in the way it manages language issues in Canada and implement a process which would be triggered automatically whenever new measures are taken within a head office which may have an effect on official languages minority communities.
Along with all Canadian francophones, the Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin rejoiced a few years ago when a secretariat for official languages was created within the Privy Council. Unfortunately, this group of officials was amputated from the Privy Council and grafted onto Heritage Canada. The secretariat was handed over to a specific department that has no horizontal view of things, and that has great difficulties with implementing amendments or new programs for communities.
In our opinion, before we consider ways to amend the Official Languages Act or to implement new regulations that give better protection to one's right to work in one's own language, or reviewing the terms and the formulas for identifying the regions where services are available in the minority language, we must first take the time to create a place among the central agencies for analyzing and directing government policies and for making sure that structures and programs give due respect to minority language rights.
The Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin hopes that the Canadian government will adopt a coordinated interdepartmental strategy led by a central agency that is able to supervise the development and implementation of measures that are in keeping with the spirit of the legislation, especially Parts IV, V and VII, which were reinforced in November 2005.
Important decisions like relocating the head offices of federal institutions could be better made through a coordinated approach using mechanisms that are situated at the centre of the government apparatus. Thus, decision- makers will be able to plan their decisions regarding minority language communities, instead of working in a reactive mode.
What are the factors that determine an employee's choice to stay with his employer when an organization moves to another region? I am not speaking on behalf of federal public servants, but clearly, the presence of a francophone community infrastructure is very important for public servants who are relocated to mainly anglophone regions.
Francophone services, from child care centres to senior citizens' homes, must be present before relocated persons can choose to live in minority francophone communities.
When the Department of Veterans Affairs moved, did this have a positive impact on the francophone communities in the province? We are confident that this move was most beneficial for the francophone and Acadian communities in the Charlottetown area.
Generally, a federal presence is an asset for our communities. The working conditions offered by federal jobs are often advantageous for francophones in the Atlantic region. The presence of federal jobs helps to keep our young graduates among us. Bilingual positions offer francophones the possibility of exciting and well-paid careers.
A federal presence also shows the younger generation that has invested in immersion programs that its linguistic skills give them access to interesting and prominent positions in their communities. In general, a federal presence, with its designated bilingual positions, its public notices given in French and its mandate to enforce federal language legislation helps to raise the prestige and value of French in the region.
In Charlottetown, many employees who are francophone or who are francophiles, or those who have gone through immersion programs, actively participate in developing the francophone and Acadian community. Many of them sit on the boards of community organizations. We must also mention the substantial financial contribution made by the Department of Veterans Affairs to the activities of francophone organizations.
Success often depends on the confidence that develops between the federal apparatus and the community organizations. Of course, we must raise the management's awareness of their responsibilities to their employees, as we did with the managers of the Department of Veterans Affairs, but we must also raise the awareness of the francophone community as a whole. With each new project and each new initiative, new bridges are built between individuals.
The Chairman: Would you please sum up your conclusion, Mr. Richard?
Mr. Richard: What would we advise the government to do when it moves the head offices of federal institutions in the future?
First and foremost, there must be an evaluation mechanism. We think that Senator Tardif is right in saying that some changes such as moves to the regions are beneficial. When she explained the mandate of your study, she stated that in a vast country like Canada, decentralizing government operations can have many advantages.
The government stated its intention to carry on with decentralization and we think that it is a must for the federal apparatus to create mechanisms that ensure the protection of minority rights when the changes come about. When the department moved in the late 1970s, it spearheaded the development of a network of school and community centres in Prince Edward Island. This new and massive federal presence had an impact beyond Charlottetown and it had a ripple effect whereby more and more services in French were requested in many regions of Acadia and Prince Edward Island.
We must also mention the fact that the presence of the head office of Veterans Affairs has given us leverage with the provincial government. As the province wanted to attract and retain those important positions, it changed its attitude regarding the francophone population of Prince Edward Island and gradually rallied to our cause when dealing with certain issues.
By creating attractive jobs and by hiring quite a few bilingual persons, the department is creating an environment for living in French in the island's capital and contributing to the development of community networks by providing volunteers and precious resources.
You can see that our society and I as President of the Société Saint-Thomas d'Aquin have many challenges to face. There is a widespread effort to restore the French culture, especially in Prince Edward Island, and to develop better- managed community infrastructures.
I am quite aware of the fact that moving federal jobs from the National Capital to the regions creates many challenges for the people who have to move. However, the presence of the Department of Veterans Affairs and the expected arrival of more federal jobs are very helpful to foster the vitality of our francophone and Acadian communities in Prince Edward Island.
The Canadian government must be aware that the presence of its institutions in minority francophone communities helps their development and is in keeping with the intentions of the Official Languages Act, especially part VII.
François Dornez, Community Deputy, Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise: Madam Chair, I am François Dornez. As the Community Deputy of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise, I want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to share with you our community's experience when Farm Credit Canada moved its head office to Regina, Saskatchewan in 1992.
The arrival of a large federal body like Farm Credit Canada in our area had a very positive impact beyond any doubt. As the government corporation is subject to the Official Languages Act and committed to providing a favourable environment for both languages, it promptly rallied with the francophone community of Saskatchewan to facilitate the process of moving and reinserting its francophone and bilingual personnel along with their families in the new environment. Even before moving to Regina, delegates came to Regina to meet the community and to set up partnerships for facilitating moving, registration in schools, and creating a reception service in the community to give support to the personnel.
Since it arrived, Farm Credit Canada has constantly contributed to the francophone community of Saskatchewan, by providing human and financial resources but above all by serving as a model for other departments, organizations and institutions subject to the Official Languages Act by its commitment to the growth of our community.
Let me now give the floor to my colleague, Marie-France Kenny, Former President of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise and a former employee of Farm Credit Canada.
Marie-France Kenny, Former President, Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise: Madam Chair, I know the official languages file of Farm Credit Canada very well because I was the manager, until December 2006, of the national official languages program of Farm Credit Canada. I was also the President of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise.
I would like to tell you about the role played by Farm Credit Canada, which began even before it moved when scouts came to meet the community to establish a partnership. The chief executive officer of Farm Credit Canada won the Official Language Commissioner's Léon Prize two years ago in Saskatchewan. Mr. Ryan is a unilingual anglophone CEO with a great interest in official languages. He is unilingual. Although he tried, he was not able to finish his training. He reached his limit, but he is still carrying on so as not to forget what he has learned.
He was a role model for an entire community when Forum 4-2-1 was held in western Canada, with the four western federal councils. Mr. Ryan spoke of the commitment made by Farm Credit Canada and of the change in our culture, when we no longer spoke in terms of legal obligations but rather in terms of plain common sense. He spoke of the client's experience, which was valid for francophones as well as anglophones, and he noted the fact that service in one's own language is a part of the client's experience.
This was the first time that a national manager of the official languages program worked in a region outside of Ottawa or Montreal, namely in Western Canada. This gave me the opportunity to work with colleagues and to really understand the situation in Western Canada.
You know that in Ottawa, even though you are part of a language minority, you can, in fact, be served in French in hotels or restaurants, whereas this is not the case in regions like Saskatchewan.
Recruiting was a difficult issue and we shared the experience.
I noted that there was a lack of information being exchanged between the national managers in Ottawa and Western Canada. It was up to me to advise my Western colleagues responsible for official languages about the new directives, initiatives and programs. Things are done in Ottawa, but they do not necessarily reach Western Canada. Farm Credit Canada enabled us to move ahead toward a better understanding of the situation of the francophone community in Saskatchewan.
We must mention the leadership shown by John Ryan of Farm Credit Canada and by the upper management. Leadership must come from the top down if society is to move forward. John Ryan was involved when the Canada Games were held in 2005. He met the organizing committee and told them that the games absolutely had to be bilingual, and that there was no excuse for them not being bilingual. He stated that if Farm Credit Canada can be bilingual in Saskatchewan, then bilingualism is certainly an option for the Canada Games.
Moreover, he was involved in providing them with employees. Employees were seconded for more than two years. This brought about an exchange of knowledge in both official languages with regard to information technology, translation and strategic planning. Translation was entirely coordinated before, during and after the games.
The personnel was also allowed to take leave in order to do volunteer work, because we needed more than 5,000 bilingual volunteers for the games in Regina. We succeeded in this project due to the constant efforts of the community in collaboration with Farm Credit Canada. More than 5,000 volunteers worked at the Canada Games.
We have noted an increase in the number of students in the francophone school in Regina, with more participation of employees in community activities and efforts. Several positions were filled in the child care centre, the committee and the management board of l'Eau Vive. The employees work in all kinds of positions. Personally, I was the chair of the Assemblée communautaire fransaskoise.
Farm Credit Canada also participates in the Imagine Program, whereby we hand over one per cent of our profits before taxes to the communities in which our employees work and live. A volunteer program gave our employees the opportunity to make requests to our organization. Several times, I as well as several other employees, had the opportunity to hand over a cheque to the francophone community for the volunteer work done by my organization.
Later, partnerships were created with the French Institute of the University of Regina for language training. Farm Credit Canada has its own service, but the French Institute also offers immersion programs and other such programs. This initiative led to the creation of francophone and bilingual positions for the francophone community in Saskatchewan.
More than one-third of the personnel of Farm Credit Canada in Regina is bilingual. These bilingual anglophone or francophone persons are part of our community. They attend our cultural evenings and other activities and they contribute money and goods to our fundraising efforts.
They also participate in promoting Saskatchewan in francophone countries as an immigration destination. We sent a member of our personnel along with the Saskatchewan francophone delegation to help the community recruit farmers. Another delegation is ready to leave this autumn, and Farm Credit Canada will also send an agronomist to help the Saskatchewan francophones do their work.
Farm Credit Canada and its CEO serve as a role model for the other departments and government corporations that have regional or local offices in Regina and in Saskatchewan, in terms of the leadership they have shown, without incurring great costs. With a minimal investment, we are succeeding in changing the culture for employees and the services offered to personnel.
The recent nomination of Kelly Gareth, Senior Vice-President of Stratégie, savoir et réputation, was followed — she is currently the honorary President of the Coalition pour la promotion de la langue française et de la culture francophone en Saskatchewan — by a total commitment from Farm Credit Canada. I say that this is very positive.
Mr. Dornez: As you can see, since Farm Credit Canada arrived, it has been a major partner for our community. This is a great advantage for francophones in Saskatchewan. Since Farm Credit Canada came to Saskatchewan, the French language has really developed in the area.
Indirectly, the growth of French culture in Saskatchewan is partly due to the presence of Farm Credit Canada and its bilingual personnel in the province.
Over the years, this growth has given rise to a greater commitment by the province to offer services in French.
Three years ago, we adopted a policy for services in French and for the past two years, the Speech from the Throne as well as the budget are available in French. As a historical fact, the last Speech from the Throne contained a part in French that spoke of the government's commitment to work closely with the Saskatchewan francophone community in the fields of immigration and employment.
We can state beyond a doubt that the decentralization of government in the early 1990s had a most favourable impact for francophones in Saskatchewan.
However, we should not think that the mere fact of moving is enough to make an impact. In addition to the move, Farm Credit Canada's commitment, substantial contribution and leadership in our community had a positive impact.
Senator Losier-Cool: After hearing the witnesses from Veterans Affairs and what Mr. Richard said regarding the reaction of the SSTA, are you ready to state before this committee that moving federal institutions into minority official languages communities has a positive impact?
Ms. Kenny: Yes, definitely; I would recommend that this be done in as many communities as possible, not just in some very specific regions. This has had a very positive impact in each province, not only with the community there, but for the French fact generally. This has made it possible to enhance the French fact in our region.
Mr. Richard: Yes, absolutely. As I mentioned in my presentation, the relocation of the Department of Veterans Affairs to Prince Edward Island quickly became a catalyst for the development of community school centres in Prince Edward Island. The impact was that important for us.
Mr. Dornez: I wanted to add that this relocation made it possible, as was the case with the Canada Games in Regina, to extend our outreach nationally and internationally.
No one thought it was possible to have bilingual games in Regina. It was done, and what an achievement that was and what visibility it gave us! Both us and the federal government. It was not just the francophone community in Saskatchewan that was successful, but I do not think we could have asked for more in terms of the official languages.
Senator Losier-Cool: In preparing for such a relocation, what is the first condition to be considered?
Ms. Kenny: In Saskatchewan, when employees are moved — and this is what Farm Credit Canada did — advance people are sent out to meet with the community, for both the francophone and bilingual staff and to see what infrastructure is in place. They also ensured that there was a welcoming committee in place for employees, to show them around the community and to twin them with people to take them to the schools and help them get their children enrolled.
In my case, the idea is to ensure that when people arrived there would be a link between the community and the bilingual and francophone employees.
Senator Murray: Mr. Richard, with the exception of the school in Charlottetown, how many other French schools are there on Prince Edward Island?
Mr. Richard: There are four other community school centres that have been established since école François-Buote, and later the carrefour de l'île Saint-Jean. Before 1970, there was just one regional school.
Senator Murray: Are they primary or secondary schools?
Mr. Richard: I think that three of them are for children from preschool age up to grade 12, and two go from preschool to Grade 6.
Senator Murray: Are you referring to kindergarten?
Mr. Richard: It is even before that, because in Prince Edward Island kindergarten is not part of the regular school system.
Senator Murray: And what is preschool?
Mr. Richard: It is for infants 22 months and older. It is a day care centre staffed by trained people who guide activities.
Senator Murray: How many preschool programs are there?
Mr. Richard: Six, in each community school centre there is a day care centre and a kindergarten.
Senator Murray: Can you us what percentage of rights holders are attending French schools in Prince Edward Island?
Mr. Richard: In 2001, the figure was about 25 per cent. I think it has increased to 30 or 35 per cent. However, we would have to look at the most recent statistics. In 2001, the figure was 700 out of 2,400.
Senator Murray: There is only one French school in Regina, Saskatchewan?
Ms. Kenny: There is one French school and a number of schools that offer immersion programs. But there is one French school.
Senator Murray: So there is just one French school? I am not talking about immersion programs.
Ms. Kenny: There is one French school in Regina. There are a number of others in the province.
Senator Murray: From elementary school to high school?
Ms. Kenny: We also have the day care centre in our community school centres. So we range from day care to grade 12.
Senator Murray: Do you know what percentage of young Fransaskois rights holders are going to French schools in your province?
Ms. Kenny: I do not know that, but I can certainly send that information to you.
Senator Murray: It may not be that different from the national average, unfortunately.
Ms. Kenny: Despite the differences, the situation is much the same in the different parts of the country.
Mr. Dornez: In Saskatchewan, we probably have the lowest percentage of francophones of any province. When new people come to our communities, we achieve a certain critical threshold. Then some things become possible. That gives us a new impetus to move things forward. We probably would not have been able to have the Canada Games if Farm Credit Canada had not relocated to Regina.
Senator Murray: I presume there is just one elected francophone school board for the entire province?
Ms. Kenny: Yes.
Senator Murray: How many schools are there?
Ms. Kenny: There are 13 in the province.
Senator Murray: That does not include immersion schools?
Ms. Kenny: No. There are 13 francophone schools in Saskatchewan.
Senator Murray: That offer programs from the elementary level to grade 12?
Ms. Kenny: Yes. There are some places where we have only elementary schools and others where there are school centres that offer programs from day care up to grade 12.
Senator Tardif: I found your presentation very interesting. I picked up on at least three ideas that contributed to the success of your efforts in each region: leadership, partnership or ties with the community and the municipalities — and in the case of Prince Edward Island, with the provincial government — and finally, the need for a francophone community infrastructure if the project is to work.
Nevertheless, I am still somewhat concerned, because from what we heard today, it seems to me that we would not have been able to recommend that the government introduce regulations on part V of the act, because apparently everything is going well.
Now, is that really the case? Should we still be aware of the fact that if there were other relocations, and if all the ingredients are not present, and if there is no good will, the project may not be as successful?
Linguistic duality is provided for in law, it is one of our Canadian values. If there is a step backward — and here I am not talking about the impact on your communities — we are saying that everything is going well, because the project worked. But what do you say?
Ms. Kenny: I came to Farm Credit Canada in 1994 to talk about the language of work. We gave employees who moved in 1992 a period of two years in which they could choose to return to Ottawa, at our expense. Very few employees in the initial group that came to Regina stayed. That had nothing to do with language of work. These people were nearing the end of their working life, they wanted to come for two years and then go back to Ottawa, where their roots were. Maybe they did not like Saskatchewan or Regina, but in any case their leaving had nothing to do with the language of work.
However, Farm Credit Canada made a commitment, and I am not sure that all departments and crown corporations do the same. I can tell you that Farm Credit Canada, although it is not required to provide service in both official languages at its head office, has decided that it would give its employees a work and social context that would favour the use of French.
It takes commitment. I am not prepared to say that all departments and Crown corporations have the same commitment. We had to make sure that if people wanted training in French at our head office, that could be done. It was possible because our training materials had already been translated for our employees in Quebec, and because we had people who could train us at the head office. So why not have a French-language group? So there was this commitment that went beyond the requirements of the act, but we were in a position to offer this opportunity.
The agency's vision was to do a least what is required under the act, and where possible, to do more. But I do not believe it is true that this commitment exists everywhere in the federal government.
[English]
Senator Downe: I would like to bring to the committee's attention some information I found when I was researching the benefits of decentralization of federal departments to the regions of Canada. On the Treasury Board website of 2005 — it is no longer there, but I have copies if you need it — after program review in February 1995, when the government had to reduce the public service, thousands of jobs were lost in the regions like Manitoba and British Columbia, while almost all the positions were retained in the National Capital Region. More importantly, for the more senior positions — that is the EX1 to EX5 positions — over 70 per cent of those positions remained in the National Capital Region.
We have heard testimony from various people today about the benefits of relocation of departments to the various regions. I would like to conclude by quoting from Statistics Canada, which indicated that after Quebec and New Brunswick, Prince Edward Islanders are third among the provinces in their knowledge of the two official languages. That does not mean they are bilingual, but they have knowledge of the two official languages. A great deal of the credit has to go to the relocation of a major federal department to Charlottetown.
[Translation]
The Chairman: In conclusion, if the federal government wanted to make three main recommendations to ensure a successful move, beyond good will, what would they be?
Mr. Richard: We mentioned in our brief that one of the challenges is to have a liaison between the central location, in Ottawa, for example, of a federal department and its relocation. The purpose would be to plan the impact of the relocation on official language minority communities. We think it must be planned, organized and structured to ensure that the impact of these moves can be planned and subsequently evaluated.
We also suggest that greater effort be made to ensure that synergies are developed between Parts IV, V and VII of the Official Languages Act so that there are connections between all of these parts when a federal government department or agency is relocated to a minority community.
Ms. Kenny: The first recommendation would be an agreement with the community to work with that community. On Part V, I agree that something is needed. Do we need exactly what is offered in Ottawa to employees? I am not sure of that, and I must say in all honesty that I am not sure that could be done.
Should Part V be implemented in full? I hope so. That will take a commitment on both sides. For the community, it certainly requires a memorandum of understanding about how to work together.
The Chairman: I would like to thank you for your understanding, ladies and gentlemen. Since the Senate is sitting at 6 p.m., we will unfortunately have to stop there. Thank you very much for your testimony.
The committee adjourned.