Proceedings of the Special Senate Committee on
Anti-terrorism
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of November 22, 2007
OTTAWA, Thursday, November 22, 2007
The Special Senate Committee on Anti-terrorism met this day at 1:03 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Adam Thompson, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, we have a quorum. As clerk of your committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of a chair, and I am prepared to receive nominations to that effect.
Senator Andreychuk: I move that Senator Smith be appointed chair of the committee.
Mr. Thompson: Any there other nominations? Seeing none, it is moved by Senator Andreychuk that Senator Smith do take the chair of this committee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Mr. Thompson: I invite Senator Smith to take the chair.
Senator David P. Smith (Chair) in the chair.
Mr. Smith: We have rounded up the usual suspects to form this committee. We will continue with the proceedings.
The next item is the election of a deputy chair. Do I have a nomination for deputy chair?
Senator Andreychuk: I move that Senator Nolin be deputy chair of the committee.
The Chair: Are there other nominations? Hearing none, I have a motion to close the nominations. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Senator Day: Are we sure that Senator Nolin wishes to serve in this position?
The Chair: He has confirmed that to me, and I was advised officially of that through Senator Stratton.
Senator Day: I assume that because he was nominated by one of his colleagues, he will accept the position. It is important for the record.
The Chair: It is a fair point, which has been answered definitively.
The next item is the issue relating to a Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. For those of you who might not recall, I believe the third member last time was our former chair, Senator Fairbairn. I am ready for a nomination.
Senator Fraser: I move the motion. Do you wish the motion to include Senator Fairbairn's name, which I would be honoured to include, or do you want a general motion?
The Chair: Sometimes it is done that way, at other times it is not. At this time, we are looking for the motion that is before us, which is not to designate a name. We will go through the usual consultation for that.
Senator Andreychuk: We will accept the consultation.
Senator Fraser: I so move.
The Chair: All in favour of item 3?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: After due consultation, we can confirm that the third member will be Senator Fairbairn. We do not need a motion on that; however, we are all in agreement with respect to that.
That brings us to item 4. We have a motion in that regard. All in favour?
Senator Joyal: Mr. Chair, you should read the title.
The Chair: The title of the motion is the "Motion to print the Committee's proceedings.''
Senator Joyal: Thank you.
The Chair: The motion is that the committee print its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number to meet the demand. All in favour of this motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Item number 5 is a motion relating to the authorization to hold meetings and to print evidence when a quorum is not present.
Senator Joyal: I so move.
The Chair: We have a motion from Senator Joyal. Is there discussion? All in favour of this motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
Senator Day: What is the quorum for this committee?
The Chair: The quorum is four.
Senator Day: If three people are present, can a meeting take place and can the proceedings be printed?
The Chair: We will ask our clerk to address that.
Mr. Thompson: The meeting could take place, evidence could be received, but no decisions could take place unless there were quorum. Four senators would have to be present in order to make any decisions. Should a committee member be late, witnesses could begin their testimony, or if senators were unavailable and a witness only were available, the witness could proceed and the testimony could be printed. However, no decisions could be made at the end of that meeting.
The Chair: This is a standard decision out of respect for the witnesses.
Senator Day: We are going too fast, so we should ask the questions.
The Chair: The next item on the agenda deals with the financial report. Clerk, would you advise us what we need to know?
Mr. Thompson: Senators were distributed a draft report. As you all know, rule 104 requires all committees to table in the Senate a summary of expenses incurred over the previous session. Our total expenses in the last session were $12,446, which covered essentially working meals and the services of the French editor on our main report.
Senator Joyal: Were expenses for witnesses included in that amount?
Mr. Thompson: A total of $1,696 was included for witness expenses.
The Chair: Could I have a mover?
Senator Joyal: I so move.
The Chair: Senator Joyal has moved the motion. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried.
The next item relates to research staff and a motion to ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee.
Senator Fairbairn: I so move.
The Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: Carried. While we are on this item, I should point out that Wade, our former analyst from the Library of Parliament, has moved to Alberta. Perhaps the clerk would give us a one-minute summary of the new research staff.
Mr. Thompson: One analyst, Laura Barnett, is here today. When we get into the business of the committee, she will be assisted by Philip Rosen, who worked with the House committee on its review of the Anti-terrorism Act. Laura has been working with the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights. They will be our primary analysts throughout.
The Chair: They are not coming in cold. Mr. Rosen was involved with the same subject matter for the House of Commons committee.
Senator Day: It is beneficial to have the balance between anti-terrorism and human rights.
The Chair: That is true. We can now move on to item 8, because we have adopted the motion for number 7. Item 8 relates to the authority to commit funds and certify accounts. You have the motion before you, honourable senators.
Senator Fraser: I so move.
The Chair: Is there any discussion? All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The next item is, agenda item 9, relates to travel. I would invite someone to move that motion.
Senator Day: I so move, Mr. Chair.
The Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The next item, number 10, relates to designation of members travelling on committee business. This is the standard motion on this subject. Could I have a mover?
Senator Fairbairn: I so move.
Senator Joyal: Mr. Chair, in some of the committees I have been attending, we have added that the members of the committee be informed when a member of the committee is authorized to travel on committee business. The objective is not to prevent the subcommittee from accepting that the member goes on committee business, but I think it is good practice to be informed that there is one member travelling on official business involving the committee's work.
The Chair: Yes. Are you doing that in the form of a motion?
Senator Joyal: Yes.
The Chair: We will take that as an amendment to the motion before us. All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The next item relates to travelling and living expenses of witnesses, number 11. This is the standard motion for this item. Do I have a mover?
Senator Joyal: I so move.
The Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: I will ask our clerk to review the time slot with us. I assume we will do what we have done before. This is all negotiated and agreed with.
Mr. Thompson: My understanding is that our time slot remains as it was in the last session, which is Monday afternoons from 1 p.m. until 4 p.m.
Senator Andreychuk: I have a comment. We have met in the past at 10 a.m., 10:30 a.m., all kinds of times. The reason I am raising the matter is that we are coming to a point where we are probably going to hit some budget issues and we may be sitting on a Monday. What will we do in that case, if we have the piece of legislation that we need to deal with? Perhaps the steering committee can let us know. All I am asking is a heads-up early enough.
The Chair: We may not be meeting every Monday, but we will have to deal with those situations when they arise.
Senator Fraser: Mr. Chair, it seems to me that as often as not when we do sit on Monday we sit in the evening in the chamber.
The Chair: Yes, usually.
Senator Fraser: I know it can be, but it seems to me that, usually, to enable people to come from the West who do not have afternoon meetings to take a flight that day and get there —
Senator Andreychuk: An independent wishes 2 p.m. I just throw that in.
The Chair: In the meantime, the time allocation that the whips have agreed to is Monday, 1 p.m. to 4 p.m.
Senator Day: I wanted to determine from our clerk whether there has been some discussion with the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence in terms of this time slot, so there is no overlap. I have in mind that the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence meets from 3 p.m. to 7 p.m.
Mr. Thompson: My recollection is that the committee meets from 4 p.m. until 7 p.m., but I will consult with the clerk and advise the steering committee accordingly, when they do set meetings. As I recall, generally speaking, even though our time slot extends until 4 p.m., this committee generally adjourns at 3:30 p.m., to allow members time to get to their other meetings.
The Chair: The next item on our agenda is other business. I will advise members that, as of now, our plan is that we would not sit this Monday because the minister cannot attend here until the following Monday. He has agreed to be here at that time.
We did receive a phone call from Senator Segal, who did not want the meeting held today; he wanted it held on Monday. I pointed out that for those people who have to come from Saskatchewan that did not work. Today's time was cleared through Senator Stratton, and we did go through the procedures. I have left a message to this effect with Senator Segal.
Senator Andreychuk: Senator Segal is being ably represented by Senator Johnson today.
The Chair: Senator Segal did phone my office to object to the timing of today's meeting, but it had been cleared through the whip, Senator Stratton.
He wanted the meeting to take place on Monday, but to have everyone come in for Monday for 15 minutes did not seem fair. Therefore, it was agreed with the whip that we do it this way. In case you hear from Senator Segal, we went through due process. Those are the breaks.
Senator Andreychuk: I think he has accepted that because he asked Senator Johnson to sit in.
Senator Fairbairn: And a fine sitter she is.
The Chair: We would be happy for you to be here.
Senator Johnson: Taking diligent notes.
Senator Joyal: It balances the committee.
Senator Day: December 3 is the first day you are contemplating having a meeting, is that correct?
The Chair: That is correct.
Senator Day: I am not sure of the time, but there is a small subgroup in the Senate, known as the "singing senators.'' Three of them who will be performing on that day are at this meeting; they will be performing at, I believe, 12:30 to 1 p.m. I am wondering if we can start 30 minutes later, at 1:30 p.m., to accommodate those who might want to go. I am talking here about the parliamentary spouses' annual Christmas fundraising luncheon.
The Chair: My problem is that I cannot speak for the minister's office. This time was agreed to by the minister's office and ministers have pretty tight schedules.
Mr. Thompson: I can certainly make the request with the minister's office to shift that to a half-hour later, but there would be Question Period in the House of Commons at 2 p.m.
Senator Day: He would have to go for that. Could you check the timing on that parliamentary spouses' event? I think we were asked to be there for 12:15 p.m.
The Chair: On a Monday?
Senator Day: Monday, December 3.
Senator Fraser: I believe, Senator Day, that the parliamentary spouses, who tend to understand these things, could schedule the singing senators early in the program.
Senator Day: We are. Senator Banks had to go by 2 p.m.
Senator Fraser: We could liberate everyone that way.
Senator Day: We are done by 2 p.m. for sure.
Senator Fraser: Yes, but done by 1 p.m. would be nice.
Senator Day: So is the minister. In any case, that is just a small subgroup, which is getting smaller all the time.
The Chair: I am a little nervous about doing that because it is not easy to get ministers. It was not possible for this Monday, which is why we have it scheduled for the following Monday.
Of course, everything will be on the record in the transcript if there is someone who is a little late in arriving. I am a little hesitant to change the time that we have agreed to; perhaps we could do it by 10 minutes or something.
Senator Day: Fifteen.
The Chair: Do members wish to get into the subject of other possible witnesses, or should we defer that until our meeting with the steering committee? I think we will let them deal with that. Could you forward any suggestions that you have to the clerk?
We might try to schedule a steering committee meeting at some point next week and have a briefing on whatever we should be briefed about by then.
Does anyone have any other items of business they wish to raise?
Thank you for be here. I will see Senator Segal at his speech to the Churchill Society in Toronto tonight, at which I bought a table, so I do not think he can really complain about the fact that we proceeded with this meeting today.
The committee adjourned.