Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 6 - Evidence - Meeting of May 12, 2008
OTTAWA, Monday, May 12, 2008
The Senate Standing Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:04 p.m. to study and report from time to time on the application of the Official Languages Act, and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Traduction]
The Chair: I would like to welcome you to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. My name is Maria Chaput, I am from Manitoba and I chair this committee. To begin with, I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are here today. On my left you will find Senator Lowell Murray, from Ontario, Senator Andrée Champagne, our Vice-Chair, from Quebec, and Senator Gerald Comeau, from Nova Scotia. On my right, we have Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool from New Brunswick.
I would like to introduce the four witnesses who have been invited to take part in our round table this evening. On my right, Mr. Xavier Georges, Director of the Réseau culturel francophone de Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador, Ms. Monic Gallant, Director General of the Fédération culturelle de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard, Mr. Paul Gallant, President of the Fédération culturelle acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse and Nova Scotia Arts and Culture Partnership Council, and Ms. Mariette Carrier-Fraser, President of the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario.
The purpose of today's round table is to examine the state of francophone culture in Canada and, more particularly, in minority francophone communities. Today's witnesses represent community associations from eastern Canada and Ontario. We hope to meet with New Brunswick associations in a few weeks. We have already met with community associations from western and northern Canada, government organizations and the Centre de la francophonie des Amériques. We intend to meet with national associations from the arts and culture sector.
Witnesses, the committee would like to thank you for having accepted our invitation and for having travelled here today in order to appear. I would now invite you to take the floor. Before you begin, I would like to remind you that we would like your presentations to be about five minutes each in order to allow senators to ask questions afterwards.
I now invite Mr. Xavier Georges to take the floor.
Xavier Georges, Director, Réseau culturel francophone de Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador: Madam Chair, senators and committee members, I would like to thank you for inviting me to appear. It is an honour for us to be here.
I would like to say that the Réseau culturel francophone de Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador has worked very hard in recent years to consolidate culture and to structure the province's development with respect to the Francophonie. I must say that, in recent years — particularly since the celebrations organized by Société 2004 —, the French fact in Newfoundland and Labrador has flourished and become popular with francophone communities as well as with the linguistic majority communities. As a result of these favourable circumstances and after conducting consultations, the Réseau culturel francophone de Terre-Neuve-et-Labrador was created at the request of the communities to co-ordinate provincial efforts.
In terms of the cultural network, it is interesting to note that there has been an unexpected outcome, and that its scope is increasing. When we talk about working with the linguistic majority, particularly with Newfoundland and Labrador's history — one of cohabitation that dates back several decades —, we note that the cultural network, because of its efforts to develop culture and contribute to the professionalism of artists, has established a link and has become an interlocutor. All artistic development organizations already in place — whether the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, the folklore festivals or various major developers from the linguistic majority — have found the cultural network to be the perfect interlocutor. Thus, we have been attributed a twofold mandate: to represent our communities to institutions already in place and, at the same time, to make it possible for these institutions to discover us.
In speaking of the major challenges for culture and the cultural and artistic development of the province, it is from the perspective of consolidating the cultural continuum. We speak of strengthening the cultural network, which is a very important aspect. Based on the experience of several other organizations, we told ourselves that we would have to work hard to establish this network. The network was put in place very quickly. By examining the justification for the network, the projects for example, we discovered that network operations increased tenfold in one year simply by meeting basic demand. Thus, it is very important for us to work with the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française to develop a plan to consolidate what we are putting in place.
We also talk about retention and what the results of our efforts will be, namely creating employment, generating pride and making connections between youth and established artists. It is a very broad mandate that the community has accepted with open arms.
In terms of dialogue with and the support of government institutions, in Newfoundland and Labrador we are very satisfied with the work done with respect to Part VII of the Official Languages Act.
Institutions such as Heritage Canada dialogue with us and support the cause. In keeping with the keen interest in the French language, many people are supporting the cause naturally by raising their children in French.
Thus, it is very important to us. It has allowed us to situate ourselves, it is vital and it needs to be developed. When we step outside the usual channels for dialogue or funding, we often find ourselves on the side of the linguistic majority. It is not as easy to have a French dialogue and I am referring only to the federal level. At the provincial level, efforts are laudable and very important, but a great deal of work remains to be done in future.
Monic Gallant, Director General, Fédération culturelle de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard: Thank you, Madam Chair. In Prince Edward Island, the francophone culture is doing fairly well even though we face many challenges every day to keep the French language alive.
Retaining our artists and our youth is a fairly serious concern. Much effort has been made in our communities through our schools and community centres at our schools. Our cultural actors are exhausted because they devote many hours to bringing francophone culture to a minority environment that is becoming increasingly anglicized. That creates many challenges within our communities.
Our organization speaks for the arts and culture at the provincial level and we are responsible for all festivals and community centres. We have only one director, myself, who represents the cultural federation and basically I must do administrative work rather than working in the field. That creates many problems.
Although the work is 24/7, I am very passionate about it and the effort is there. There are many gaps and a great deal of work remains to be done. In contemplating the future, we do not know what the French language will be like in 50 years. People are concerned about this.
Our cultural activities develop a sense of belonging in our community by promoting its richness, history and heritage. A tremendous amount of time, energy and resources must absolutely be invested as the arts and culture are not self-sustaining activities. It is important to provide our community with French activities as this will ensure that our language will survive over time.
I hope I have conveyed my message.
Paul Gallant, President, Fédération culturelle acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse and Nova Scotia Arts and Culture Partnership Council: Madam Chair, thank you for giving me the opportunity to meet with you today.
In your introduction you mentioned that I was the President of the Fédération culturelle acadienne de la Nouvelle- Écosse. I am also the President of the Nova Scotia Arts and Culture Partnership Council, whose role is similar to that of the Nova Scotia Arts Council. In my day-to-day life, I am the Director of the Conseil des arts de Chéticamp, a very dynamic arts organization in the Chéticamp community of Cape Breton. I wear several hats, but that is just fine in Acadia. According to one of our sayings, ``you can be man, woman or even the horse.'' So that is not so bad!
Senator Losier-Cool: And Cape Breton!
Mr. Gallant: And Cape Breton!
I would like to talk to you briefly about these two organizations and about the greatest challenge in terms of relationships: the contribution of the provincial and federal governments and of the community.
The Fédération culturelle acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse has been in existence for four years. We have a very vibrant cultural and artistic life, which Senator Comeau is familiar with because he is from one of these communities. In talking about culture, Baie Sainte-Marie comes to the forefront.
We are an umbrella organization for 36 agencies. We focus on three sectors, including the school sector. We recognize the importance of having youth build identity through the schools. That is the first priority.
The other priority, or complementary tool, is the work and development of our artists. Finally, we focus on the development and reorganization of our communities so that they can fully benefit from the arts and culture.
The province's Arts and Culture Partnership Council has just completed the report Création Nouvelle-Écosse. The community and government, acting as partners, prepared a plan for the province. This has had some success and the Nova Scotia arts and culture budget will double within three years. That is significant. Although the plan was designed for the entire province, I wonder how our community will ensure its presence at the discussion table. It is important to have structure. Canada-community agreements have been very beneficial for our communities. At the age of 15, I was a founding member of the Fédération des jeunes canadiens-francais and I have followed the successful evolution of this organization. It is evident that, in terms of arts and culture, we do not have the best tools in our communities. In the communities, we have some good organizations that concern themselves with social and cultural advocacy, turning it into a hybrid venture.
I cannot underestimate the importance of the next agreement. It is vital that we have other types of tools to deal with the arts and culture, among other things. With this movement, inroads are being made with municipalities and we hope also with the federal government. There are tremendous opportunities and we must be well prepared in order for francophones and Acadians to not miss the boat once again.
My last point concerns the role of the federal government. I am also involved with the Founders Council of the Canada Arts Council. Because of this involvement, and by observing the arts and culture scene in general, I have noticed a trend. The federal government is withdrawing its support for culture; there is less ongoing support and a greater number of one-time projects.
Take cultural spaces, for example. Senator Comeau is familiar with the assistance obtained from ACOA for construction. This is not a problem that affects just francophones. In Nova Scotia, museums, theatres and other venues have been built. Most of the time, however, support is provided by the community and the Nova Scotia government.
If the federal government does not wish to support these organizations, it is vital that it sit down with each province to better plan funding. We can agree on the role of each level of government, but to do so we must decentralize.
It does not seem right to me that the Minister of Canadian Heritage makes all the decisions in Ottawa. If they wish to establish closer ties with the community and work together with the province — which would be a good opportunity —, authority must be decentralized to the regional and provincial levels. Our organizations and our volunteers are burning out and I think that would help a great deal.
I am sure we will have a good discussion afterwards.
Mariette Carrier-Fraser, President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario: Madam Chair, I would like to thank you and the committee for inviting us to appear. The Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, which I represent, appreciates this important study of culture.
The purpose of my presentation is to situate culture in a broader context — the context of francophone Ontario, if you will. I will not go into all the details. I forwarded my document to Mr. Jacques, who can share it with the others. However, I do wish to tell you that one of the most important pieces of information from Statistics Canada's 2006 Census is that Ontario has about 533,000 francophones, the largest number of francophones outside Quebec.
Having said that, the demographic portrait of Ontario indicates a problem in rural communities and a problem in major urban centres. Fifty nine per cent of our urban centres have a population of more than 25,000 people. Toronto has two to three million. Naturally, rural communities are much less populated. In short, 85 per cent of Ontarians, not to mention Franco-Ontarians, live in urban communities.
The exodus of youth and the aging population are also concerns.
In major urban centres the issue is different: these centres welcome many Ontario francophone immigrants who always migrate to the largest centres — Ottawa, Hamilton and Toronto — together with those from the rest of Canada and abroad.
The phenomenon of an aging population affects some francophone areas more than others: the Northeastern Ontario, for example — North Bay, Sudbury, Hearst, where I come from —, and Southwestern Ontario — Windsor, Sarnia, and so forth.
The largest proportion of youth between 15 and 29 is found east of central Ontario, particularly in Toronto and the Niagara area.
In the North-West, the Thunder Bay area, for example, has the highest proportion of 30 to 65 year olds in all of Ontario and this has an interesting impact on our francophone communities because there is no one to take over for this aging population.
Immigration is also a significant challenge. Since 2001, the percentage of francophone immigrants has represented between 10 per cent and 13 per cent of the total population. This is an interesting challenge because it changes the culture of our Ontario Francophonie, contributing vitality and an interesting source of diversity.
I would also like to bring to your attention that it is very important to promote to immigrants the fact that there are francophone communities in Ontario. All too often they discover this after becoming well established in an anglophone community and we lose them. Steps have been taken in co-operation with the Government of Ontario to make immigrants aware of this.
Identity and language are at the heart of the francophone project in all territories and provinces. The Ontario Francophonie is very diverse in terms of ethnicity, demographics and geographic location. Some members of the AFO board of directors travel 1,700 km to attend a meeting in Ottawa. It is rather expensive to run our meeting; however, in our eyes, it is important because we wish to reflect the province's diversity.
The Franco-Ontarian community has used many strategies over time to strengthen its identity. In our schools, for example, Franco-Ontarian history is taught through books and television series. TFO is an extraordinary tool for educating the general population. Adopting the Franco-Ontarian flag was an extremely useful symbol for the community. For example, the struggle to keep Montfort Hospital open took place against the backdrop of the Franco- Ontarian flag.
The survival of the French language is also threatened because more and more of our youth come from exogamous families. If the father speaks French, quite often English will be spoken in the home. I will come back to that. This has an impact on the arts and culture.
We are aware that francophone and anglophone stakeholders do not have the same influence and we must ensure that our linguistic space is preserved and protected. Heritage Canada and the federal government must put in place initiatives to strengthen the forging of an identity and cultural education, to promote partnerships with the arts and culture sector and to ensure that the language lives not just in the school and in the family but also in the community.
In many respects, the Franco-Ontarian community is a model of creativity, vitality and organisation, which is truly reflected in the arts, culture and heritage. Although we may not have everything we need, we have made tremendous strides over the years. Since the early 1970s, artistic expression in all its forms has exploded in French Ontario.
Today, across our community — ``to the four winds of the possible future'' to quote the late Robert Dickson, our Ontario poet who passed away last year — we can count eight publishers, ten or so professional theatre companies, several art galleries, museums, folklore centres, heritage interpretation centres, an arts magazine and a network, Réseau Ontario, which organizes tours, and a multitude of groups and associations that promote the interests of artists. I can name a few: Théâtre Action, Association des auteurs, Association des professionnels de la chanson, Regroupement des organismes du patrimoine and others.
Organized, structured, strengthened by the ties it has forged with the world unto which it has opened itself, or which it has attracted, the Franco-Ontarian community increasingly active in forging its identity and is no longer in survival mode. However, we want to be in development mode. We do not wish to just survive, we wish to live well and to develop as francophones. Our partners in the arts, culture and heritage sector are telling us that their situation is precarious, that the stability they have been able to build through imagination and resourcefulness is delicate, that there is a small margin between taking a step backwards and growth and that the undeniable role — I am still referring to our partners in the cultural and artistic sector — they play in countering linguistic erosion deserves to be given its due. For 30 years, the Franco-Ontarian artistic and cultural community has fought major battles to obtain recognition from and the support of various levels of government. It has fought hard for everything it has won.
The federal government must show leadership in developing and implementing a new, modern and exemplary vision to support the full development of Franco-Ontarian arts and culture. This applies to all francophones throughout the country. We await with anticipation the next Action Plan for Official Languages, which we hope will include the arts and culture sector once again as recommended in the Bernard Lord report.
We are calling for the implementation of a joint mechanism for horizontal management that would group together all partners that can work on developing a vision, a new strategy to develop the arts and culture.
The institutions of federal and provincial governments and of certain key municipalities, as well as stakeholders of the francophone community, could work together. Given that they are the witnesses, barometers and catalysts of the society in which we live, our colleagues from the arts and culture sector remind us that the Franco-Ontarian community is at a crossroads today. It can be proud of its past accomplishments. The integration of newcomers, and the contribution to all spheres of society, including the arts and culture, is certainly something to be proud of. However, for lack of adequate support, the arts and culture sector is on the verge of collapsing.
Today, we can seize an opportunity. If amendments are made to strengthen Part VII of the Official Languages Act — making more tangible the obligations of the government with respect to official languages minorities — and if these measures are implemented, the future of our community will be brighter. One of my priorities is to ensure the effectiveness of the Act. Good intentions are no longer enough. According to the Commissioner of Official Languages, Graham Fraser, we must now achieve concrete results.
We will support the realization of this priority and we know that your committee will work to that end.
Many challenges remain, such as the inclusion of new francophone immigrants and the development of cultural competencies. The Franco-Ontarian arts, culture and heritage sector is an important driver of economic development. The document I provided to Mr. Jacques highlights the fives axes for strategic planning of the Alliance culturelle de l'Ontario.
As we said earlier, there are many challenges; however, the road map for the Franco-Ontarian arts and culture sector is remarkable. The experience and expertise acquired by various stakeholders have made them national leaders who have forged ties with their colleagues in French Canada and Quebec. This is not done in isolation. For us to continue to create, to reinvent ourselves, to flourish and to be proud of who we are, we need the dynamic and continued support of the federal government. It is a question of responsibility and commitment; it is a question of giving one's word and respect; it is a question of taking action and, above all, of the future.
The Chair: Thank you very much. I would like to ask Mr. Georges the first question. I read a press release dated May 11, 2008, which referred to a community radio station in Newfoundland. Could you tell us about it? Is this a new initiative?
Mr. Georges: This is an initiative which falls under the global development plan of the federation of francophones reflecting the interest of the communities. The cultural network tackled this matter because to strengthen communities and to remove barriers erected by distance we have to be able to communicate and to convey information more quickly.
In Newfoundland and Labrador, the closest francophone community to St. John's is the Port au Port Peninsula. We are talking about 900 km. The next community would be Labrador City, which is more than 1,000 km away.
In taking responsibility for this new cultural network, my first challenge was to determine how to promote our artists and our cultural identity. What I realized first of all was that the community radio network was not very strong. There is one radio station in Labrador City, Radio Labrador CJRO, which has been on the air for many years. It is well established, very solid, but it is also losing its vitality as indicated by the disengagement of volunteers. The situation is somewhat similar to that of the Port au Port Peninsula community, which had a station but could not operate it because it did not have a licence. The community does not have a training program. It has been trying to put something in place for many years but without any financial support. Thus, these projects do not come to fruition. St. John's does not have a studio. By using new technologies and with the support of the Newfoundland and Labrador French school board, we wanted to build on what already existed primarily by: updating the Labrador station and providing computer equipment so as to broadcast on the web; doing the same thing with the Mainland studio on the Port au Port Peninsula; using this momentum to update and reequip the studio, which would create a small studio in St. John's for a minimal cost. This would result in a provincial radio network broadcasting on the Internet and also on local hertz waves available to francophone communities. That would be carried out in a spirit of consolidation and unification.
The Chair: Have you already developed a programming draft. Have you already given a presentation to obtain your licence? At what point are you?
Mr. Georges: The presentation has not yet been given although we have met with the CRTC, which gave us the impression that the project was viable. That was the first issue. Then, we met with the Alliance des radios communautaires. The project seemed to be going well. The main backer of the project, who believed in it from the beginning and even before starting the technical studies, is the Department of Canadian Heritage, which I commend, as it is providing more than half the funding for this project.
At this point, we presented this project to communities at the last provincial meeting of the Fédération des francophones de Terre-Neuve et du Labrador. The cultural network may have initiated the project but it is not carrying the project. The project is being carried by the communities. We consulted these communities to become familiar with their vision and their wishes in that regard. A short programming draft was created after discussing draft protocols that could exist among the various partners. Everyone was very enthusiastic about what this could be in concrete terms. Therefore, we presently have a draft. Programs are already well established at Radio Labrador. They are important, no matter if they are morning or evening broadcasts. Depending on the type of licence application we submit to the CRTC, broadcasts will always originate with Radio Labrador. That means that the programs are always broadcast, the segments will be made in the regions, sent to Radio Labrador and then rebroadcast.
The Chair: Thank you. I now turn the floor over to Senator Tardif, who will be followed by Senator Murray.
Senator Tardif: My question is for Mr. Gallant. I heard you say that there seems to be a tendency on the part of the federal government to fund one-time rather than ongoing projects. I am not sure that I have understood what you mean.
Mr. Gallant: I am referring to the Canada-community agreement and organizations such as those found in Prince Edward Island, for example the Société St-Thomas d'Aquin and others. Naturally, the federal government, through Heritage Canada, has historically always been prepared to provide funding for operations.
We see the same thing happening to anglophones, who are not better off than francophones in this regard. For example, when building a museum or a theatre, there does not seem to be money for the cultural space; it seems much easier to obtain the capital for equipment or construction. That does not pose a problem. In my own community, in Chéticamp, two museums were built without any difficulty. How to manage them is always the issue. One of them just closed and there are serious doubts about the survival of the other. I could make a long list of Nova Scotia Institutions — such as the Atlantic Theatre Festival among other good institutions — that were established with the best of intentions. However, Nova Scotia must ask itself how many theatres, galleries and museums it can support. It is a reasonable question that must be asked. For the good of the Acadian community, the federal and provincial governments must have serious discussions about their intervention. It is not just a matter of injecting money; these projects must be supported.
Senator Tardif: I am trying to understand the implications of such funding. How is your community affected by having one-time funding of projects and not ongoing funding?
Mr. Gallant: It is a problem because institutions close and volunteers burn out. In our community there is a museum project but it will have to close. That affects the community.
When we speak of an arts and culture axis, we are not saying that it has to be funded entirely by Heritage Canada. It is important to have strategic investments. There are definitely significant needs. Some communities do not have the resources and the tools to carry out their tasks. However, we need to have discussions with the province, the municipality and the grassroots groups — we share the responsibility — in order to support development, not just for two years but for 20 or 50 years.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Many organizations receive what is called ``programming funding.'' The funding proceeds as usual and is renewed every year. Most of the time, the funding decreases. In Ontario, the number of organizations is increasing and the envelope has remained the same; therefore, amounts are decreasing. However, there is also project funding. A project is a one-time event. An activity is created and it is expected that it will be integrated into programming; however that does not necessarily work because the envelope is too small. That creates the problem. A project is put in motion, all kinds of expectations are created in the community and then not even a penny more is provided to allow the project to continue for ten years. This always creates difficulties for the organizations, which hesitate to submit a project because they are unable to cover it with their programming funds the following year.
Senator Tardif: You spoke about more decentralization to the regions and provinces. Is there not a risk? Many regions do not have policies and infrastructure that are conducive to the needs and realities of official language communities.
Mr. Gallant: When we talk about decentralization, it is more to do with bureaucracy. I am not saying that Canadian Heritage is asking the provinces to look after francophones. For example, the festival program is an excellent initiative, but if money was set aside for festivals, would it not be possible to say, ``Here is the budget for Nova Scotia''? If the minister wants a photo op, it can be arranged. The application went out in January, and now it is May. It is bureaucracy. The people in Halifax say, ``We do not know anything; it was sent out. Ottawa makes the decisions.'' It makes things very difficult.
Senator Tardif: So you are talking about increasing the involvement of communities by consulting them more?
Mr. Gallant: Yes. Our regional offices have the power to make some decisions. Not all the power, but it could make things easier. Chéticamp received funding for Cultural Spaces, which is a fantastic program. We are very grateful. It is not easy; there are obstacles in the way. That is what makes things difficult.
Senator Champagne: Obviously, with occasional funding, the money will not be unlimited. Do you believe that if a project receives occasional funding, the amount should automatically be 50 per cent one year, 25 per cent the following year, and after that the organization takes care of itself?
It seems as though the minister needs to realize that if the government provides funding, the community could take it for granted and would not do what it has to do to generate the money the project needs to continue. There is a problem. I understand yours, but I also understand what the minister and her officials are facing in trying to manage an amount of money that is not unlimited.
If, in the beginning, you receive a set amount of money to get your project up and running — a museum, for example — and then the following year you receive less, and in the end you would have to figure it out on your own, do you think that would be an alternative?
Mr. Gallant: I understand what you are saying. In some cases that works. The Conseil des arts de Chéticamp, a small organization, has a budget of $400,000. A large part of that budget comes from its own contracts and from ticket sales. It is housed in a 14,000 square-foot building that recently opened, the Place des arts Père Anselme-Chiasson. Because it is located in a school, the school pays heating costs. It has found a creative way to make things work, but it still does not have stable funding. It is developing projects and some of them will work.
Senator Champagne: But every time money is granted to get a project up and running, you still know that the funding will not be recurrent forever and ever. At some point there will be no more money.
Mr. Gallant: Yes, the investment is something Acadian communities need for arts and culture infrastructure. If a decision is made to invest, it must not be done without a plan.
If you have contributed financially to these projects, some thought should be put into how they can continue to develop. We also have a responsibility to municipalities. I have a feeling that the federal government needed to hear that message.
The Chair: Do you have anything to add, Ms. Carrier?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Obviously if a project gets up and running, the community has some responsibility, but under the Official Languages Act, the federal government also has a responsibility to ensure the vitality and development of communities.
Let us look at Toronto. There are 60,000 francophones out of a population of over 2 million. It is not easy for organizations to fund themselves and find the means to survive. It is not possible without assistance, no matter how hard they try. We are also gradually losing our young people because we cannot offer them what they deserve. We do not want to spoon-feed them, but everyone needs to do their fair share and take responsibility to help the community develop.
Ms. Gallant: Our arts and culture organizations at the provincial and territorial level must submit a request year after year, even if the governments know that our organization exists. We still need to seek funding for our programs. We submit a request in December, and now in May, we still do not know whether we will receive funding for our programs. It is worrisome, even if we know that the answer will come in August or September. It would be great if funds were awarded to our organizations for at least two or three years, so they could breathe easier.
Senator Murray: Mr. Gallant, I listened carefully to what you told us about the financial pressures faced by the Nova Scotia government in terms of culture, the problem of funding infrastructure for theatres, museums and other cultural facilities in the province. That said, the last time that the committee sat in Nova Scotia, two or three years ago, the minister responsible — I believe Mr. D'Entremont — appeared before the committee, and the provincial government had just announced a plan for the Acadians, the francophones of Nova Scotia. The plan had several components, including education and government services. I do not remember if it also included a cultural component. What do you think about the progress of this plan and its achievements?
Mr. Gallant: From time to time I attend FANE meetings or meetings of the political committee that works with the Office of Acadian Affairs in Nova Scotia. The plan is moving along quite well for some departments, although I am no expert on the matter. For other departments, it is taking some time to change the mindset of a bureaucracy that is used to working a certain way.
Senator Murray: But in terms of culture?
Mr. Gallant: We have made some progress. We have opened the door to provincial cultural federations. We were recognized on the same level as other federations, such as the Nova Scotia Dance Federation. However, because the province will make new investments in arts and culture, there are concerns about how to position oneself in the community to benefit from them. There are seven professional theatre troops in Nova Scotia, and all of them are anglophone. People are wondering how a francophone troop could be created. Pubnico is talking about creating a cultural centre attached to the school; Chéticamp started trying this a year ago. It is perhaps a new avenue for the francophone community to develop a partnership with the school board, the province, and so on, to have cultural centres attached to schools. In Chéticamp, it was found to be effective. There is also a rather unique co-management agreement. That is why I am saying we need to explore other avenues. I do not think that our community is there yet, but there is a great deal of potential. The stars are aligning; now the community just needs to position itself.
Senator Murray: Leaders of the Canadian francophonie are concerned that the proportion of eligible students who attend French schools is still unsatisfactory. A few years ago, between 50 per cent and 60 per cent of eligible students exercised their rights. What is the situation in Nova Scotia? Just this morning I read, as I am sure you did, the editorial in the Halifax Chronicle Herald on this subject. This week is French-language education week.
Mr. Gallant: Exactly. There is progress. Nova Scotia's francophone Acadian school board is one of the rare ones to be increasing its number of students. I will explain the situation in a different way. At the age of 15, I started to fight for the rights of francophone communities. I am a Prince Edward Island native. I, along with two friends, was involved in two Supreme Court cases concerning the right to education in French. I have had an opportunity to examine the issue. In 1974, when I started, there was absolutely nothing. Now, we have rights, institutions, school boards, and so on. I am speaking in general terms. So what will be the next step? The francophone Acadian community is more comfortable, but our next challenge should revolve around the notion of building the identities of the young people attending our schools.
It is a priority for the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française. The CEV is concerned with this issue.
How can we find a way within our schools to have arts and culture help young people identify with their francophone and Acadian culture? By creating an innovative system, by imagining a space, a school and a different community.
Senator Murray: Ms. Gallant, the situation you described in Prince Edward Island did not seem overly optimistic.
It is important to note, however, that you have two very large federal institutions, including the Department of Veterans Affairs, which has been in Charlottetown for about 25 years. There is also the goods and services tax centre in Summerside. These two institutions have attracted many new francophones who are demanding schools from the federal and provincial governments and exercising their rights, as they should.
Both of these departments are subject to Part VII. In many ways, the situation seems very good, very promising for Prince Edward Island.
Ms. Gallant: Very promising, yes, but there is a lot of work to be done to keep our francophones and young people in our communities.
Senator Murray: Which communities are you referring to?
Ms. Gallant: The Évangéline region, for example, which has the highest concentration of francophones in Prince Edward Island.
Senator Murray: What does that include?
Ms. Gallant: The regions of Abrams Village, Wellington, Mount Carmel and Summerside's West end.
Senator Murray: There is surely a large group of francophones in Summerside and Charlottetown.
Ms. Gallant: Yes, but the largest concentration is in the Evangeline region.
There has been a significant decrease in the number of students at the francophone school. The school in Charlottetown has almost as many students as the one in the Evangeline region. That is rather worrisome. The reason for this decrease is that the programs in the schools do not necessarily meet the needs of our young people. Young people want to be able to choose their courses. It is easier for them to choose courses in an anglophone school.
Senator Murray: Choose what?
Ms. Gallant: Choose their courses. There is not a lot of choice in our francophone schools. In high school, young people who want choice will go to anglophone schools. The same thing is happening in the Charlottetown region. This year at the high school level there are maybe 60 students, but 12 of those students will move to anglophone institutions the following year because of the lack of course choices and francophone social life.
Young people do not have much access to French-language activities in their community, aside from living in French at school, and even then, there are exceptions. French is spoken in the classroom, but in the halls and in the schoolyard, most students speak English.
Young people are much more inclined to go to the anglophone side. They need a social life outside of school. French needs to be spoken outside of the classroom. francophone culture is at the heart of the community. It must come from their parents, their grand-parents, their brothers, their sisters, their neighbours. This trend is becoming stronger on the Island.
Last week, the French-language school board released a study on high school students, their social life, the cultural aspect, what they look for in a school, course selection, and their level of satisfaction. The results of this study were very surprising. There is a lot of work to be done. In smaller communities like the Souris region, which opened a small school, or the Prince West region, where a community school centre was opened, things are getting started, it is quite new. We can see that in communities like the Évangéline and Charlottetown regions, which are our oldest regions to have francophone schools, there is a significant decrease. That is rather worrisome.
Senator Murray: In Newfoundland and Labrador, how many French-language schools are there?
Mr. Georges: There are five French-language schools, and two of those are large school and community centres.
Senator Murray: They go from grade one to grade twelve?
Mr. Georges: As much as possible. That is to say that yes, the program goes from junior kindergarten to Grade 12.
Senator Murray: At the five schools?
Mr. Georges: Absolutely. It is interesting, because I have an aside to what I said earlier that gives an idea of the challenge. If we start with daycare centres, the building for the Grands-Vents school and community centre in St. John's, Newfoundland, is two years old. We are very proud of it; it is beautiful and very inviting. But there are more than 10 students on the waiting list to get into the daycare centre. There is already a problem. If we look at the numbers, three years ago when I was the director and activity coordinator of the school and community centre in St. John's, there were 36 students. Two years ago there were just over 40, and now there are 65.
The numbers are growing because for two years, the St. John's community association has been very active in terms of cultural programs. They have put on a number of shows that were also offered to immersion schools. This led to some interesting situations. For example, during a presentation of Le Petit Prince at the school centre, the 65 students of the school were present, but nearly 2,000 students in total saw the play.
We worked with the school board to promote their services. Two years ago, the school board was faced with several challenges, including having to move because it rented its facilities. Now that there is a centre, we can work on promoting and developing it. The school board has a huge lack of human resources, which means that these people are overworked and that promotion is not a priority. That is unfortunate. I am a living example; it took me one and a half years or two years after coming to Newfoundland and Labrador to discover the francophone community there. We need to do some promotion, but it is underway. Now that the centre exists, the school board has created a promotional DVD on the different francophone communities in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a fantastic and professional DVD.
So there was a problem with daycare centres. If we go a bit further, there is a new principal at the school who is very dynamic. A number of programs have been put in place, including a very interesting music program. I think this situation is common across the province, because there is talk of a new school centre that is not a community centre, but that will be a new school centre in Goose Bay.
The centre is now two years old and we are already three classes short. The building is brand new. It is a very big challenge for us, because in terms of availability of space, the school side gets priority, often at the expense of community activities.
Senator Murray: What provincial government department do you deal with for cultural issues?
Mr. Georges: In terms of culture, we work with Canadian Heritage.
Senator Murray: My question was about the provincial government.
Mr. Georges: Provincial? I apologize. For promoting the arts?
Senator Murray: Yes.
Mr. Georges: At the provincial level, we get support from the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. Their support is significant and shows that the French fact is important to the province, despite the limited means.
Senator Murray: Newfoundland and Labrador's financial situation is improving every day.
Mr. Georges: It is improving every day. Not too long ago, it was much more difficult and when we made our last request, it was still hard.
Senator Losier-Cool: I have two quick questions. First, is there not an office that handles francophone affairs for the provincial government?
Mr. Georges: Absolutely.
Senator Losier-Cool: Second, there is no francophone parliamentarian, but there is an office?
Mr. Georges: We have a francophone MP, a native of the cradle of Newfoundland and Labrador francophonie. What I will say about the Office of French Services, an office that is fully dedicated to our cause and that helps us enormously, is that is also handles all government files. If we approach them about a file in particular, for example the Francoforce file — and this project is Canada-wide — the files are taken in order of priority.
Senator Champagne: The point I wanted to discuss was covered. I will wait my turn.
Senator Comeau: I would like to get back to Mr. Gallant. He told us that he wears several hats, but he failed to mention one: artist. Perhaps one day he could host one of our special events. His translation number was particularly impressive. Senator Murray mentioned Minister Chris D'Entremont from Nova Scotia earlier, and if I am not mistaken, he was translated by ``Son of God d'entre deux montagnes.'' I think we should invite him soon.
Mr. Gallant, I am very interested in the federal-provincial-community-municipal planning you spoke about earlier — and from what I understand, I am not the only one. You seem to strongly believe in the potential of such planning. Could you tell us whether Nova Scotia is currently prepared to explore this?
Mr. Gallant: As I said, I wear several hats. I know that the department and the Council have been discussing the entire problem. I have attended a few of these meetings this past year. This is a first; a province is sitting down with Canadian Heritage and the departments to explore the potential, if you will, of getting involved and investing in the arts, even with some municipalities. I am not blaming anyone, but it did not come naturally to look at harmonizing some programs. But I do believe it is something we need to do. The possibility of an arts and culture component in the next Canada-communities agreement should really be explored. It is an important opportunity.
I cannot speak for the other provinces, but in Nova Scotia, if the federal and provincial governments invest an amount of money, it seems logical to look at what the community itself could invest.
Senator Comeau: If we moved towards a national culture policy in the next five-year plan, would each political entity have to be considered, be it Ontario, Prince Edward Island, or any other province, to take into account its distinct characteristics?
Mr. Gallant: Exactly. I do not see any inconsistencies there. A structure can be established, some kind of federal mechanism, and when it is applied at the provincial level, there will be a negotiation process to take into account each province's distinct characteristics.
Senator Comeau: Two recent events impressed me.
First, Quebec unanimously passed a bill to create a Centre de la francophonie des Amériques. The president of its board of directors, Mr. Roy, appeared before us last week, and he explained the goal of this centre. This is the first time, in my memory, that Quebec has become publicly and politically interested in francophonie in the Americas.
Second, last week during a visit to France, the Governor General mentioned francophones from across Canada, when usually, we hear only about the francophones of Quebec. I am fond of Quebecers, but there are other francophones outside of Quebec. It was the first time that a Canadian head of state mentioned Canadian francophonie during an official visit to France. Should this be taken as a sign of hope?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Quebec's new policy on Canadian francophonie is nevertheless very clear. The government states that Quebecers are back in the francophonie and that they are now ready to work alongside all the francophone communities in Canada. The actions taken by Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Charest clearly show that Quebec is acting in good faith. In unity there is strength. This cooperation will surely help move things forward more than when each community worked in isolation.
Senator Comeau: Aside from Mr. Pelletier, this bill was unanimously passed by the other political parties — the Parti Québécois and the ADQ.
Does that create a new dynamic? I think so, since Quebec now wants to promote the cause of the francophonie in the Americas. Does that give us a potential new partner, not necessarily for funding, but for a potential market for our artists?
In the past, an artist essentially had to move to Quebec to be able to work. Does this provide an opening, a chance for a Nova Scotian artist to access the Quebec market?
Mr. Gallant: The circumstances are different. I have heard two speeches by Minister Pelletier, and I must say that it is surprising. It is what we have hoped for over the years. If we think back to the time of the Parti Québécois, people in Acadian and francophone communities had the impression they were pawns in some kind of power game. Now we really have the impression that there is a possibility of partnership. Xavier spoke about the Francoforce project, which will celebrate the 400th anniversary of the founding of Quebec City. We did not want it to be an exclusively Quebec celebration, and because the event is managed by the Fédération culturelle canadienne, it will be celebrated in all Canadian provinces in the coming months. I think that is a wonderful change.
Senator Comeau: Ms. Gallant, you have a very specific problem in that you have large distances to cover. I think that the situation in Prince Edward Island is just as difficult as in Ontario. There are the regions of Summerside and Évangéline, where there are small francophone communities. Is there a way for these communities to meet, or are they too far away from one another?
Ms. Gallant: I would say that people are used to small communities. For the people of West Prince, in the far west of the province, having to drive an hour and a half to get to Charlottetown is hell. Distance is a reality back home.
Mr. Gallant: You have to be from Prince Edward Island to understand.
Senator Comeau: That is why I asked the question. I was expecting that kind of response.
Ms. Gallant: They still do have a chance to meet. The Fédération culturelle brought together the school and community centres from each of the francophone regions and they meet rather regularly. There is also the Community Forum, created in collaboration with Canadian Heritage, which meets every three or fourth months. All the communities meet to make decisions on certain issues and to learn about what is going on in other areas.
Senator Comeau: I would like to say in passing that I think the Acadians of Prince Edward Island have earned a special spot in history. If I am not mistaken, I think it was the only group of Acadians that was exiled twice.
Ms. Gallant: Yes, that is correct.
Senator Comeau: You certainly have earned special treatment. Thank you.
Senator Champagne: Ms. Gallant, I listened to your speech earlier, and like Senator Murray, I was saddened to hear you talking about the French-language situation there. I must admit that in a way I was surprised, because two weeks ago I saw the Prince Edward Island arts festival on television, where Angèle Arsenault was honoured. I did not see the whole show, but everyone seemed optimistic and happy about the development of francophone culture there.
Today, your comments are a bit pessimistic. Was what we saw just a show for television and for people outside the province? Is the truth somewhere in the middle?
Ms. Gallant: You must be talking about the Éloizes awards.
Senator Champagne: Yes.
Ms. Gallant: The idea to host this event came from the Fédération culturelle and one of our members, the Carrefour de l'Île Saint-Jean in Charlottetown. The idea was to promote arts and culture within our community. That was why the community was very proud that Prince Edward Island hosted a major francophone event for the first time in many years. It was a great success for us, and that is what you saw on television. You saw the influence of our community, which was very happy.
Senator Champagne: That is why when you started talking pessimistically, I wondered if I had perhaps been dreaming when I saw that television show. Let us hope that the joy all those PEI artists showed will be contagious and that the joy of French will continue on.
Ms. Gallant: That is exactly what we want. We are trying to keep up the momentum in the community after this event. However, we still have obstacles in our path that will set us back. This time was a great success, but it is not over. I am not saying that francophone culture is not strong back home. There is an incredible cultural richness in Prince Edward Island. This richness has not been sufficiently developed and will have to move forward to be recognized by the entire community. If you were to talk about the Éloizes awards now, there are very few people from Tigniche who went. For them, going to Charlottetown for an event they are not familiar with is like going to the other side of the world. In terms of communication, Radio-Canada is the only radio station available. It broadcasts a three-hour show in the morning, live from Charlottetown, and that is our only voice.
A community radio project has been in development since 1985, but the volunteers are struggling to get the project off the ground. Nevertheless, they will be filing a request with the CRTC in August of this year.
Senator Champagne: You are right there with Mr. Georges of Newfoundland.
Ms. Gallant: We will have a voice to communicate with our community and to promote the French language in the neighbouring provinces. That gives each community a chance to be heard through the radio.
Senator Champagne: Ms. Carrier-Fraser, in the French-speaking corners of Ontario, people love French and try to make it a way of life. I went to speak French with people in the Welland Canal region.
Around here, the show l'Écho d'un peuple is fantastic. I took my grand-daughter and she loved it.
However, on the plane yesterday, I spoke with a young Quebecker who has been on a work-study program in Toronto for a year and a half. She has one year left, and splits her time between work and school. She told me that what she misses most about Toronto is not being able to join a French-speaking group.
But there must be ads, maybe in anglophone newspapers, for visiting francophones who might end up staying, or for immigrants, to show that there are places where French is spoken, where they can get help, for example, with medical problems. There must surely be something. More and more francophones are emigrating, and would no doubt love to meet up with others. The same thing is going on in Vancouver.
How can we better inform francophones across Ontario — I am thinking of centres like Toronto, but also Timmins — about the places where French is spoken, and where francophones can meet up? How can we help you make them aware of francophone groups?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: You mentioned different dimensions. When francophone immigrants arrive in the country, especially in Toronto, anglophone organizations are there to welcome them and direct them towards anglophone groups. They are not even told that there are places where French is spoken. We are trying to solve this problem with Citizenship and Immigration.
The francophone community in Toronto has about 60,000 people. But they are spread out; there is no French neighbourhood.
In downtown Toronto, for example, TFO has set up in College Park, on College Street. Across the street is the Centre francophone de Toronto. These organizations put out advertisements. They are trying to communicate with anglophone groups to give them a sense of responsibility, to tell them that services in French exist, and to inform them of where people can get services in French. TFO is doing a lot to promote the francophone community across the country.
The situation is the same for Radio-Canada. The province is big, and there are a lot of francophones. But the amount of information offered by Radio-Canada concerning the francophonie in Ontario is very limited.
I listen to the radio at 5 a.m. to make sure I hear the Ontario news, because after 9 a.m. it is no longer broadcast.
It is very expensive to put ads in newspapers. It is easier to do so in small weekly papers with a regular circulation, like L'Express de Toronto and the Métropolitain. It is not easy to get in touch with all francophones.
The government of Ontario is trying to promote French-language schools, because the same thing is happening. There are far more small French schools than large ones. For example, in communities like Wawa, Hearst and Ignace, there are small schools with about 60 students.
It isn't easy to reach people. We use the Internet, but not everyone has access, especially in some age groups.
Senator Champagne: I was very surprised to hear that young woman, just twenty-some years old, say that she did not know there was French theatre in Toronto.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Some people do not make an effort to find it.
Senator Champagne: I hope that I managed to pique her curiosity. If you provide information, the federal government should find a way to make it available so that francophone immigrants and others can find out about it. That might help us keep the francophones who come here and attract others.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Immigration rates are rising steadily, so this is a real problem. The number of students in schools is rising because of immigration, but the birth rate among francophones, who have been here forever, is practically nil.
Senator Champagne: Does the Government of Ontario try to make information available to immigrants when they get here? I know that in Quebec, the government gets its hands on them right away.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: You have good timing. Next week, I will be meeting with representatives of the Ontario Ministry of Citizenship and Immigration. I am on Citizenship and Immigration Canada's sub-steering committee to find ways to make those connections and to ensure that we get the message out. We are talking about a meeting and a project with the Commissioner of Official Languages to francize services at Pearson Airport and to make services in French available to newcomers.
I hate that airport. It is not very friendly. It is cold and unwelcoming.
Senator Champagne: And you have to walk forever.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: You walk forever and you never get anywhere.
Senator Champagne: Let us hope that the Government of Ontario will be as straightforward as the Quebec government has been and let people know that even though it is an anglophone province, services in French are available. It is important for immigrants and newcomers, some of whom are Canadian, to know that.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: That is why a partnership between the federal government, the provincial government and municipalities is so critical to making sure that this is a concerted effort. Even if we spend a million dollars on one sector or another, unless the effort is coordinated, there will be no tangible result, because people will only get bits and pieces of information. We have to do things more efficiently.
Senator Losier-Cool: I can't help but think of what Senator Champagne was saying. When you grow up in a minority situation, you let people in other regions of Canada think that francophones live only in Quebec. I know that you have experienced this. People are always surprised to meet someone who speaks French but who is not from Quebec.
There is no need to go to Europe to see that, because you can see it right here at home. I always mention that to people in Encounters with Canada and even to the young guides on Parliament Hill.
I would like to ask our three witnesses a question, and if we had a representative of New Brunswick here, it would be for that person too. Could the Atlantic provinces get more federal funding if they set up a cultural organization instead of an Atlantic economic union, which is an idea that a lot of people have promoted and are still promoting? Does such an organization exist? If I am not mistaken, there is no provincial or Atlantic union policy.
Mr. Gallant: That is an interesting question. I had a similar conversation with colleagues from New Brunswick, members of the Association acadienne des artistes professionnels du Nouveau-Brunswick and cultural organizations in New Brunswick.
We are less afraid of the concept of Atlantic cooperation. We know each other well. Going back to my Acadian roots, I find it strange to have barriers. I feel a sense of kinship with Acadians from Cap-Pelé and the Acadian peninsula. I am from Prince Edward Island, and I moved to Cheticamp. Cheticamp was founded by people from the Magdalen Islands and Prince Edward Island. Without getting into a political debate, the provincial boundary line for us, when we're talking about Acadia, is a lot more flexible.
Together with our colleagues from New Brunswick and the other people here today, we just launched an arts and culture alliance.
We are working with the Senate. I am pleased that you emphasized earlier that this is one of the big files where Heritage Canada needs to put together a pan-Atlantic funding envelope. There will certainly be plenty of projects. We already have some, such as Francofête and the Éloizes on Prince Edward Island. We need greater collaboration between the provinces. Sometimes, it's not easy because people don't always have the time to deal with the mechanisms, particularly the provincial and federal ones. People pretty much have to submit four applications in four different provinces to make a project happen. There is four times the work to be done.
Senator Losier-Cool: In Prince Edward Island, in the wake of the success of Atlantic artists at the Éloizes, might that support discussions in favour of the arts in the Atlantic provinces?
Ms. Gallant: There is an arts alliance. It was created following the États généraux in New Brunswick, where there was a pan-Atlantic discussion we all took part in. The idea was to try to create an Atlantic fund shared by the four provinces. Acadians have a lot of experience that we could share. That is collaboration, communication to seek out expertise and artists. People go to Quebec a lot because of a collaboration agreement with that province. There are also experts in Nova Scotia.
Senator Losier-Cool: Do you go to Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon too?
Mr. Georges: Absolutely. Newfoundland and Labrador signed a collaboration agreement with Quebec just two weeks ago about that same kind of commitment. What's interesting in all this for people in Newfoundland and Labrador is that collaboration agreements like these raise the provincial government's awareness of the French fact in this province. That gives us a voice and a presence — which have always been there — but the Saint-Pierre-et- Miquelon thing is about another country. It is not part of the current funding agreements. We have to respect the collaboration agreement that the Société nationale de l'Acadie has with the French consulate, which makes certain initiatives possible. But the funds are extremely limited. Nevertheless, in Newfoundland and Labrador, Saint-Pierre-et- Miquelon means 6,000 francophones just 20 kilometres away from us, so it is very important to develop our relationship with them. The first thing I did with the Société nationale de l'Acadie was build that bridge.
Senator Murray: There are a lot of links between Newfoundland and Labrador and Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon.
Mr. Georges: We have historical and other kinds of links.
Senator Losier-Cool: Ms. Carrier, do you think that it would benefit the federal government to have a national cultural policy? What do you think such a policy should be like?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: Probably, but we have to make sure that it does not get so cumbersome that nobody can make it work. How would the basic policy be developed? Maybe it would work with the Fédération culturelle. Cultural policies could certainly be part of the action plan, and there should be an action plan and appropriate funding to foster the connections that should be made between the provinces and territories. But the government should not impose a system that is impossible to manage. Not everyone's needs are the same. The implementation of such a policy should reflect the realities of the provinces and territories in which it applies. We need a basic policy and we need it to be implemented according to specific needs.
I cannot speak on behalf of my colleagues from the Maritimes when it comes to how that would work, but we would have to work together to find out if that kind of thing can be done. That is one of the issues we raised in the Lord report when we said that we need a policy, but it must reflect the diverse needs of each province and territory.
Senator Losier-Cool: Last week, we heard from Jean-Louis Roy, chair of the board of directors of the Centre de la francophonie des Amériques, and when I asked him that question, he replied, ``Absolutely, because every G8 country has a national cultural policy.''
In which cultural sectors are artists faring best or most poorly? In music, visual arts, translation? Who can make a living from their art?
Mr. Gallant: In Nova Scotia, we have the Grand Dérangement artists who are doing very well nationally and internationally. The statistics confirm that artists are faring best in music and film. Visual artists and dancers are not doing as well. These disciplines need longer-term infrastructure help.
Mr. Georges: In Newfoundland and Labrador, there are no francophone recording companies or publishers. That means that when a creator produces work, it always costs more to get that work to market. That is one area that the arts and culture alliance could help promote. This is a difficult situation for us.
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: A national cultural policy might be one way to solve the problem of transferring skills from one province or territory to another.
Senator Losier-Cool: That is more or less what this committee wanted to figure out by undertaking this study. We wanted to get a sense of what these challenges that minorities are dealing with mean to francophone culture. You talked about several of these issues: burnout, retention, immigration. Should we recommend that the federal government develop a national cultural policy that takes these issues into account?
Mr. Gallant: I would just like to caution the committee. I talked about what we have been doing for the past 30 or 35 years. In Nova Scotia, we have held community forums to talk about arts and culture. We raised some concerns, and that prompted some healthy debate. In the past, we had Heritage Canada programs. Culture used to be seen as such a vast thing that people not longer felt they had a place in it; anything and everything was culture. If we want an arts and culture policy, it has to focus on artistic and cultural development. Our community needs it, and it is up to us to make it happen, but if there are organizations that say they are social and cultural, that would make it possible for the ones who were doing it part time to focus on advocacy and other priorities — and there are a thousand and one priorities — and it would also give the arts and culture community a chance to assume some of these responsibilities and come up with its own structures.
Senator Champagne: Mr. Gallant, you were saying that musicians are able to earn a decent living. Might I take a closer look at a sub-category of that group of artists? Things are not quite so good for classical musicians. No matter where they are, they have a pretty hard time. When you talk about musicians who earn a decent living, you're talking about pop musicians, right?
Mr. Gallant: Yes, that is right. There is a distinction.
Senator Tardif: I would like to get back to the federal government's role. Ms. Carrier-Fraser, you indicated — and I completely agree — that the federal government's role is to support the development of official language communities. Now we have Part VII of the Official Languages Act with an amendment that requires the government to ensure that positive measures are implemented for official language communities. Have you noticed any positive measures being put forward over the past two years in your respective communities' arts and culture sectors? If so, do you have examples of positive measures? Are they really assets? Have you seen concrete results and changes?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: In Ontario, we were very pleased when the positive measures bill was passed in the House. We had very high expectations. All departments and agencies were responsible for implementing measures to encourage the community's growth and development. It is no longer solely our responsibility to propose the positive measures we need to help us develop as a community. Until now, there is very little evidence that anything has been put in place.
I represent my province on the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, and we are looking closely at this to see just what has been done up to now. This is a new thing. The departments are so big that it is no small feat to retool the machine and ensure that communities' needs are recognized. Unfortunately, until now, we have not seen many concrete actions in support of community development.
Mr. Gallant: Neither have I. I cannot discuss this in detail, but I get the sense that in Nova Scotia, despite the fact that I talked about problems and challenges, I definitely think that in the past five years, we have started to put ourselves out there. We are getting more help from the federal government, although that help is often just for specific projects, such as the Festival acadien de Clare, the Festival de l'Escaouette, the Grand Cercle and the Conseil des arts de Clare. I would note that the province is starting to put us on the same level as anglophones. They talk about the Festival de Clare and the Grand Cercle the same way they take about Celtic Colours. We are starting to see some recognition for our peers, and that's a new thing. We have to keep working on this, and the federal government has to help communities do even more.
Senator Tardif: How do you think provinces, the federal government and the regions should go about signing collaboration agreements? Perhaps with language clauses? That would be good. How can we achieve that level of coordination unless the federal government uses incentives to encourage the provinces and regions to work toward that goal?
Ms. Carrier-Fraser: In many cases, in existing agreements, such as the Canada-Ontario agreement, when the federal government transfers funds to the provincial government, there is always a language clause. That's important because if the federal government transfers a responsibility to a province, the province has to comply with the Official Languages Act. In many cases, the clauses are not strong enough and do not necessarily require results. I am sure that the provinces would be somewhat reluctant to agree to certain clauses. We are between a rock and a hard place. The federal government does not want to impose anything, and the provinces do not want their hands tied. They do not want to be prevented from doing certain things. That causes problems, and francophones end up out in the cold.
Senator Tardif: That is the issue I wanted to raise, Madam Chair.
The Chair: As Chair of the Senate Standing Committee on Official Languages, I would like to sincerely thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. This has been very interesting, as witness the lively discussions following your presentations. We will continue our work, and we are here to support you.
The committee adjourned.