Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 7 - Evidence - Afternoon meeting of June 4, 2008
BATHURST, NEW BRUNSWICK, Wednesday June 4, 2008
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 2:09 p.m. to study and report from time to time on the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it, within those institutions subject to the act.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Honourable senators, we shall welcome our witnesses in a few moments, but in the meantime, the deputy chair and myself have just reread the news release, and we were wondering if it should be sent out today. This news release pays tribute to Justice Bastarache and thanks him for his services. We would like you to review it and tell us if it is suitable.
The news release reads as follows:
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages pays tribute to Justice Bastarache
Bathurst, June 4, 2008 — The members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages today unanimously applauded the contribution of the Honourable Justice Michel Bastarache of the Supreme Court of Canada to Canadian legal culture. "Justice Bastarache was deeply dedicated to recognizing the rights of official language minority groups, and his interpretation of the legislation and decisions respecting these groups has had and will continue to have an impact on Canadian jurisprudence. We are immensely indebted to him,'' said the committee chair, Senator Maria Chaput.
It was Justice Bastarache who wrote the Supreme Court of Canada's unanimous ruling ordering the RCMP to provide fully bilingual services in New Brunswick, finding in favour of Marie-Claire Paulin, a francophone in the province who was issued a speeding ticket in English. The decision was seen by the francophone and Acadian communities as a major victory whose impact would be felt across the country. The Beaulac case also deserves mention, in which Justice Bastarache moved away from the Supreme Court's traditionally restricted interpretation of language rights, calling for a broader and more liberal interpretation.
Senator Champagne:
"With Justice Bastarache's retirement, Canadians have lost not only an eminent jurist but also a bicultural model. Since his involvement in the Société des Acadiens du Nouveau-Brunswick in the 1970s and throughout his university career and on the bench, his influence has led to significant gains for language rights in Canada. We wish him a well-deserved retirement,'' added the committee's vice-chair, Senator Champagne.
The Chair: We will now begin.
Senator Murray: There is one last paragraph, Madam Chair.
The Chair: Very well, I will conclude with the last paragraph of the news release, which reads as follows:
Justice Bastarache's philosophy can be summed up by the following excerpt from the debate entitled Building a just society, in which he participated in 1998: "In a modern democracy, the concept of majority rule is not applied to language; instead, language reflects citizens' shared values and their understanding of the requirements of a diverse society. The message of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is that respect and equality are the core of Canada's system of common values. We therefore have the commitment to promote the linguistic and cultural safeguards that minority groups require.''
This afternoon, the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages welcomes two witnesses. Allow me to begin by introducing you to members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. To my right is the deputy chair of the committee, Senator Andrée Champagne, who is from Quebec. We then have Senator Lowell Murray from the province of Ontario. To my left is Senator Losier-Cool from New Brunswick, as well as Senator Corbin who is also from New Brunswick.
Our two witnesses are Mr. Jacques Ouellet from La Grande Marée Ltd., publisher and author. According to my notes, Mr. Ouellet founded Éditions La Grande Marée Ltd. publishing house in 1993, based in Tracadie-Sheila. Since June 1, 2008, he has been serving as president of the Public Lending Right Commission, and is a member of many associations, as well as an advocate, author, publisher and employee of the Department of Health of the province of New Brunswick since 1974.
Mr. Ouellet, like many other francophones, you wear several hats, don't you?
Mr. Jacques P. Ouellet, publisher, author, La Grande Marée Ltd.: Yes, I have worn many hats, and I believe there are more to come.
The Chair: Our second witness is Mr. Bourque, Director General of Éditions Perce-Neige.
Each one of our witnesses have five to seven minutes to make a presentation. Senators will then ask questions.
Honourable Senators, you also have received a copy of Mr. Ouellet's book on the history of the men and women of Acadia, which is a very lovely souvenir. Thank you, Mr. Ouellet.
Mr. Ouellet: Madam Chair, thank you. I do not have any written statement about Éditions de La Grande Marée, because I wasn't sure of exactly what aspect to focus on. I will give you a brief history of our publishing house.
Everything began in 1993 following a market study in the northeastern region of New Brunswick to determine whether or not the creation of a regional, Acadian French-language publishing house was possible and viable. This study confirmed that such a project was feasible, but that it would require an all-out effort, 24 hours, seven days a week. We have changed since then; this year we are celebrating our 15th anniversary. Over the years, we have published more than 70 French-language Acadian titles. Some of our authors have even received literary prizes.
The publishing house of La Grande Marée publishes French-language Acadian authors as well as authors from Quebec who deal with Acadia as a subject matter or whose story takes place in Acadia. For example, in 2005, we published a trilogy written by Ms. Lili Maxime, who comes from Sherbrooke. Her piece was on Acadians, or Cajuns, of Louisiana. She won the France-Acadie prize for her first volume. The reason she won that prize is because she was published by an Acadian publishing house. Her nomination was made possible for that very reason, because as a Quebecker, she would not have been eligible. Sylvain Rivière is an author from the Gaspé whose case is similar. He has also been published by Éditions d'Acadie. We submitted his nomination, and he won the France-Acadie prize. I do not recall in which year he won it; I believe it was in 1995.
Our operations are funded mainly through book sales. We are members of the French-Canadian publishers' network and we are distributed in Quebec by Prologue. La Grande Marée is responsible for distribution in New Brunswick. We receive subsidies from the New Brunswick Arts Branch, the Canada Council for the Arts, and for the first time this year, we submitted an application to the Book Publishing Industry Development Program, which is another program offered by the Department of Canadian Heritage. That is where we are at.
Mr. Paul Bourque, Director General, Éditions Perce-Neige: Madam Chair, good afternoon, my name is Paul Bourque, and I have been the director of Éditions Perce-Neige for the last 15 years. In 1980, les Éditions Perce-Neige was founded because the Association des écrivains acadiens wanted to give young authors presenting new manuscripts a chance, something Éditions d'Acadie was not doing. Authors rallied together to publish a first book called Graines de Fée, written by Dyane Léger, which won the France-Acadie prize that year. The authors were encouraged, and things continued. Other authors such as Gérald Leblanc and Daniel Dugas and many other Acadian authors were able to publish for the first time. To date, we have published more than 135 titles, in addition to more than a dozen co- publications with Quebec, France, Luxembourg and Belgium. Our authors have been nominated three times for the Governor General's Award in the last five years, twice in this past year. We won a prize for Serge Patrice Thibodeau's novel, Seul on est.
I could not talk about Éditions Perce-Neige without talking about Gérald Leblanc, who was an ardent advocate of Acadian literature and poetry for many years. He was my partner. Recently, following the death of Gérard, Serge Patrice has replaced him as the head of the literary branch.
This past year, 2007, was a record year for us. Our sales amounted to $34,000, which is a first step for us, and due in large measure to New Brunswick's book policy, first suggested by Marguerite Maillet, and then implemented by Mr. Bernard Lord, former premier of New Brunswick. This allowed us to make direct sales to school libraries and regional libraries, which is excellent, and something we had always hoped for.
With respect to literary prizes, we have won prestigious awards, and we are a regular recipient of the Prix Antonine Maillet-Acadie-Vie, here in Acadia. We have also been nominated for the Emile Nelligan Prize, which is a Quebec prize for young poets. We have never won, unfortunately but we will not give up.
Pardon me for jumping back and forth on the details, but we have always given a special place to young authors as well. That is our primary mandate. Our literary director works to further literary development by working closely with young authors. Our objective and our mandate is to provide quality literature. We constantly strive to improve publication, and I believe that we have an excellent reputation with regard to literary quality. I am also a graphic artist; I work on book covers, as well as everything to do with administration. There are two of us working at Perce-Neige, myself and Serge Patrice Thibodeau. We deploy tremendous efforts to promote Acadian literature throughout the world, throughout the francophonie, mainly in France and Belgium.
We are now being distributed in the French-speaking countries of Europe, through our collaboration with Distribution du Nouveau Monde, which is a Quebec company with offices located throughout French-speaking Europe. This is pursuant to an agreement we signed two or three years ago, which has begun producing good results.
One of our Acadian authors is from the Acadian peninsula, from the town of Petit-Rocher, and is now residing in Paris. He is a young, brilliant author named Jean-Philippe Raîche. His first novel, Une lettre au bout du monde, was nominated for three major awards, the Antonine Maillet-Acadie-Vie award, the Émile Nelligan prize, as well as that year's Governor General's Award.
For us, Perce-Neige is a symbol of excellence. We encourage young people and show them that they can be published here in Acadia, and that they do not need to move to large urban centres. We work on that relentlessly, and we are seeing concrete results. All this to say that Perce-Neige is doing very well, in fact things have never been better, and we intend to continue working hard to carry through our vision of contemporary, quality Acadian literature and supporting talented young authors.
The Chair: Are you a profit-making or non-profit organization?
Mr. Bourque: We are a non-profit organization.
The Chair: Non-profit. And you, Mr. Ouellet?
Mr. Ouellet: A for-profit organization.
The Chair: Are there any promotion or information links between the two publishing houses, is there a bridge between the two of you? Do you work together? Because the two of you are located here in New Brunswick.
Mr. Ouellet: No, no links as such. We are Acadian publishers; we are part of the same network as other Canadian publishers. There are certain types of literature that we publish, such as novels. Perce-Neige specializes mainly in poetry. La Grande Marée publishing house deals with several literary genres, but we publish mainly novels, short stories and essays.
Mr. Bourque: But we do have some links, I believe. We are the ones who made sure that Grande Marée was part of the French-Canadian publishing network. I do not know if you remember, Jacques? We also see each other regularly at all of the book fairs. We are involved in the same book fairs. We are always aware of what is going on, and are in regular contact. Our authors know each other. I would say, rather, that there is quite a bit of connivance between the two.
Senator Corbin: I was wondering if you publish books at author's expense as well.
Mr. Ouellet: No, because firstly, if we were to publish author-funded books, we would not be recognized by the Canada Council for the Arts, and we would not be eligible for the Book Publishing Industry Development Program and the New Brunswick Arts Branch program, which subsidizes us once a year.
Senator Corbin: Do you know if authors can be published at their own expense in New Brunswick?
Mr. Bourque: This is mostly done in Quebec. Books are produced in Quebec, and exported here, as though they were Acadian. Les Éditions de la francophonie is the publishing house.
Senator Corbin: Many people, at the end of their careers, decide to write their autobiographies. You won't publish that sort of thing?
Mr. Ouellet: No, not at all.
Mr. Bourque: No, but I am glad that it exists.
Senator Corbin: They are the archives of the human experience.
Mr. Bourque: Yes. And there is a real need for that. I, for one, am in favour of that.
Senator Corbin: My question is addressed to both of you. As regards production, what is your biggest challenge, exactly? There are the inherent costs of publishing, there is all the preparatory work that goes into developing the text, editing, language, etc. There are graphics. What is your greatest challenge?
Mr. Ouellet: I think one of the challenges for all francophone publishers in New Brunswick are production costs, more specifically the cost of printing and distribution. If our market was limited strictly to the region of New Brunswick, from the distribution point of view, there would be no problem because we could take care of the distribution ourselves. But once we go beyond our borders, into Quebec for example, that is where we are confronted with all of the Quebec publishers. There are several independent Quebec distribution houses that compete with one another, and as two members of the French-Canadian network of publishers, we are being introduced to the Quebec market, and elsewhere. I believe that Prologue distributes outside of Quebec, and even in Europe.
Senator Corbin: So, there is contact, ultimately.
Mr. Bourque: They mainly distribute in Quebec. And a little to the French-language market in Ontario, but it is negligible.
Mr. Bourque: Quebec is the major market, and this is logical because that is where the majority of French-speakers are. It is a large French-speaking market, there is no denying it.
Senator Corbin: What are your greatest challenges?
Mr. Bourque: For me, I would say that the greatest challenge lies in promotion costs. To have an author tour is extremely expensive. What helps us are book fairs. At least here in New Brunswick, through the Edmundston Book Fair, specifically, we are able to invite many of our authors, so that helps cut back on the expensive promotional costs. Since there is not a lot of distribution infrastructure in New Brunswick, the book fairs are essential, and without them we would not be able to reach out to our readers. Therefore, for me, it is a given that book production, printing costs, etc., represent major challenges. But I want to go further, I would like to promote our authors more, to the fullest extent possible. Because a little effort can go a very long way. For example, Jean-Philippe Raîche's book was published last summer, his second, and it has already won two major awards in Europe, including the Louise Labbé prize and another prize. He has won two prizes. We have been selling poetry in Paris for the last 15 years, at the poetry book fair. We attend regularly, each year. We spend about a week in Paris, and it is very intense. We man a kiosk for four days, 12 hours per day, in the blazing sun, selling books to people, and this is producing more and more results. Last sales, our sales doubled compared to the year before, so I believe that promotion is extremely important. Approximately 60 per cent of my budget goes to promotion.
Mr. Ouellet: The same applies to us, even though for now, I am not making huge expenditures to promote authors for the simple reason that I want to take care of the promotional aspect by accompanying the authors. We do not necessarily have the budgets to do so, and as long as I remain an employee of the government of New Brunswick, I cannot afford to make such expenses.
Senator Corbin: Are the subsidies you receive, either from the Canada Council for the Arts, or the province of New Brunswick, specifically targeted? Are they to be used at a specific point in the publication process, or can you use the subsidies when and where you want?
Mr. Ouellet: This is a yearly subsidy, but it must be applied for. There is a deadline that we have to meet, but once we receive the subsidy, we can apply it at any step of the publication process. We can spend the subsidy on promotion, printing or on any other aspect of book publication. I cannot talk about the other subsidies, such as the Canada Council for the Arts subsidy; Paul will speak briefly about it. There are two components; there is a subsidy for new publishers and a general subsidy. The general subsidy is also annual, and must be applied for. It is reviewed by a committee of peers who make a recommendation to the Canada Council. The same process also applies for subsidies given through the Book Publishing Industry Development Program. The application process for the Book Publishing Industry Development Program is very demanding and costly for small publishing houses. We are asked to produce accounting reviews which can cost up to $5,000. We could publish two or three books with $5,000; therefore, it is a sacrifice that must be made. I made the sacrifice this year. I do not know what will come of it. We will only be receiving an answer by the end of November, and we can be into the next year before the funds come in.
Mr. Bourque: Perce-Neige has been receiving a general subsidy from the Council for the Arts since 1994. Last year we received $46,000 I believe. This subsidy is earmarked specifically for the production of books per se, namely the cost of editing, printing, graphics and all of that, so that gets us to this point and that is when the Council of the Arts stops. The Council has a separate program to promote the book, and that includes the authors' tours. Last year we received $3,500, I believe. There is also an advertising program in the written media, which is another purpose of the general subsidy. We are given a percentage of the general subsidy, and we are reimbursed for two-thirds of the money we spend on purchasing advertising in the media. So that is more or less how the system works.
Senator Corbin: One final question. I have here what looks to be a very high-quality publication, L'Histoire des Acadiens et des Acadiennes du Nouveau-Brunswick, which is published by La Grande Marée and printed in Quebec. Does that mean that New Brunswick does not have the capacity to print a publication of this quality?
Mr. Bourque: No. During my first 10 years in Perce-Neige, I always requested tenders here in the province, and it was always twice the price. That would mean that I would be producing fewer books per year, and that was unacceptable. The book which we have given you as a gift is to welcome you to New Brunswick; this was a project that the Ministry of Education charged us with last year or in 2006, because our schools never had any book on the history of New Brunswick's Acadians. This ministerial project, which was spearheaded by Ms. Rosemonde Chiasson, was distributed to all the third, fourth and fifth grades in francophone schools throughout the province. But we must not stop there. Finally, when I was a young student, we did not see any history books written in French. They were translations of books written by English or American historians.
Senator Champagne: Mr. Ouellet, earlier you said that one of the ways to enable you to publish other books was to get money through sales. You received some aid from New Brunswick, the Council for the Arts and the Department of Canadian Heritage, and that must apply to you as well, Mr. Bourque.
This morning, you said that a huge problem in this region of the country was the lack of local newspapers. There is the Acadie Nouvelle. So I was wondering how you would manage to advertise, if you wanted to sell your books in Acadie, to get yourself known to the people living here? Do they purchase the books that you publish here, for them, in Acadie?
Mr. Ouellet: Most of our sales occur at the book fairs held in New Brunswick. We have three francophone book fairs in the province. We have one held in early October in the Acadian Peninsula. In mid-October, there is one in Dieppe and in early April there is one in Edmundston. Most of our sales take place there.
As for the newspapers, it is true that there is only one francophone daily newspaper in the province. There are some small francophone weekly papers here and there, in various communities. As far as La Grande Marée is concerned, we do not bother purchasing advertising in these newspapers for the simple reason that it is very costly for the little money that the ads bring in. We tried to promote books in Quebec's big newspapers, such as Le Soleil and Le Devoir, but the cost is beyond our means and it hardly resulted in anything.
Senator Champagne: I asked this question while saying to myself that it is all well and good to produce books, but people still have to buy them so that you can get money to publish others later on.
Mr. Ouellet: Yes.
Senator Champagne: Thank you for your answer. I would like to wish you good luck for the book fairs, and I hope that you, along with your authors, will have good success. I will get back to this issue later.
Mr. Bourque: I would just like to make an additional comment. Most of our sales take place in New Brunswick. We sell most of our books here in the province.
Senator Champagne: But how do people find out when a book is coming out?
Mr. Bourque: We have a press agent who issues releases. We hold book launches, we have book fairs, we are very visible in our community. So we are relatively well known and when our books come out, with a little bit of promotion, they are picked up. We have a good rapport with the local bookstores, who in turn promote our books to their clients as well, and that is where most of our clients come from. To add to what Paul said, this is a system that can work if it is encouraged.
Mr. Ouellet: Yes, we must not forget our Acadian bookstores. There are five of them, I believe. Edmundston has one, as does the Acadian Peninsula. There are three, four, five, six, in all, which indirectly promote our titles.
Mr. Bourque: It is ironic but there is a very strong tie between the local bookseller and the book fair. Often the booksellers are involved in the book fair, and they have been the ones who have been behind this concept. I know that this is true for the Acadian Peninsula. Isabelle Bonin and Julien Cormier have had a lot to do with the fact that this book fair is still occurring.
Senator Losier-Cool: First of all, Mr. Bourque, I am pleased to learn of the success of one of my former pupils, Jean- Philippe Raîche. I taught him in tenth grade and he was already a poet when he was a teen in high school. I knew that he was in France, but I was unaware of the success he had. Thank you for the book.
I have a question that follows up on what Senator Champagne said. If I wanted to purchase a book, either from Grande Marée or Perce-Neige, in Ottawa, where could I find some of your books?
Mr. Ouellet: At the Librairie Soleil, and you could also consult the website.
Senator Losier-Cool: I know that this is often done at the book fair in Shippagan.
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Senator Losier-Cool: Some witnesses in our meetings here have talked about a policy on culture, a general policy on culture. Mr. Bourque, you said that, as a result of pressure exerted by Marguerite Maillet, there is now a policy on books in New Brunswick. Should a policy on books be separate or should it be part and parcel of a general national policy on culture? Is there any danger that the policy on books could be diluted if it were part of another policy?
Mr. Ouellet: Not at the national level. I do not see a policy on books. I do not think that this could be applied from one province to the next. Quebec has a policy on books, and has had one for several years now, and this is one of the reasons why New Brunswick wanted to have such a policy. I think that the primary purpose of this policy was to ensure that our Acadian productions were recognized in our own environment and finally, in our schools, in our bookstores, in our municipal libraries. Too often we were simply set aside.
Senator Losier-Cool: Is it preferable to have a separate policy?
Mr. Ouellet: The best thing is to begin with our own province because the policy on books is not yet a piece of legislation per se.
Mr. Bourque: It has not been ratified either.
Mr. Ouellet: It has not been ratified and this was supposed to have been done last fall. It was postponed to the winter, and we are still waiting. We will finally have it this spring, but when?
Senator Losier-Cool: But Mr. Bourque, did you not say that New Brunswick's book policy had helped your or had helped you get known? Did this policy help you?
Mr. Bourque: Oh yes, that is clear. That translated into nearly $10,000 in sales last year, after the discounts.
Senator Losier-Cool: The Government of Quebec has also come up with a Canadian policy on culture, on Canadian francophonie.
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Senator Losier-Cool: Does this policy have anything on books? Are you aware of this?
Mr. Ouellet: At the national level? No.
Mr. Bourque: I am not familiar with this, I am sorry.
Senator Losier-Cool: On Quebec's Canadian policy? No?
Mr. Ouellet: No. I would like to make an additional comment. It is not because of the policy on books per se that Perce-Neige or Grande Marée have had good sales.
Mr. Bourque: No.
Mr. Ouellet: We work very hard, and there was a budget envelope associated with the policy on books.
Mr. Ouellet: It is a purchase program, and it was more of a pilot project than anything else. That was for last year.
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Mr. Ouellet: The only news I received about the book policy, concerning whether it was going to include a purchase program, was that it probably would not. There probably will be purchase program pilot projects for Acadian publishers from time to time, but to date, nobody knows what is going to be contained in this policy. A committee was struck to draft the policy but we have never obtained the results. This was to be announced by Minister Hédard Albert, from Caraquet. He is the one responsible for this department.
Mr. Bourque: I think that it would be a good idea to include aspects of a national book policy within a national cultural policy, but I do believe that some aspects need to be examined. It is quite complicated, so I could not tell you exactly what aspects need to be examined, but I do believe that, with the United States below us and France gobbling up just about the entire book market here in French Canada or in francophone Canada, there are some things that need to be taken a look at nationally.
However, I think that New Brunswick's book policy came, to some extent, from the bookstores originally, because the bookstores were looking at the province of New Brunswick. The Ministry of Education bought their books in Nova Scotia. So the entire budget for millions of books, for purchasing books, was spent in Nova Scotia, so that really did not make any sense. And it is funny because I do not think that they managed to correct this situation in the book policy.
Mr. Ouellet: No.
Senator Losier-Cool: But they did resolve the issue as to whether or not a book policy was required as a result of this?
Mr. Bourque: More or less. We had sales, but there are no documents and nothing official, it is weird. Moreover, there is a lack of transparency surrounding the New Brunswick Arts Branch.
The Chair: I have a supplementary question to the one raised by Senator Losier-Cool. You said that there is a purchase policy within the book policy.
Mr. Ouellet: A purchase program.
The Chair: That enabled you to sell more books. Does that mean that the schools received money to purchase books?
Mr. Ouellet: Absolutely.
Mr. Bourque: Absolutely.
The Chair: So the schools received so much money and they could buy so many books for the schools?
Mr. Bourque: They increased their book purchasing budget, yes.
Mr. Ouellet: That is right.
The Chair: And this was a pilot project for only one year?
Mr. Ouellet: Yes.
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
The Chair: This was not ongoing. And this purchase policy, did this also apply to municipal public libraries?
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Mr. Ouellet: Yes, to both.
Mr. Bourque: I believe so.
The Chair: So they had money to purchase books to put into their library?
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Mr. Ouellet: All libraries, be they municipal or school libraries, in the province. They had increases in their budget to purchase Acadian books. Or I should say books edited by Acadian editors.
Mr. Bourque: It is a bit ironic because they already had money in their budgets to purchase our books, but we have to go to these lengths in order to encourage them to purchase the books.
The Chair: You have to give them money.
Mr. Bourque: It is not the same throughout the province. Some bookstores and libraries always supported our books, they always bought what we produced, and they wanted to have our books in their libraries. However, some were harder to convince and they viewed Quebec culture as the standard, so they would say: "Well we have to import because we do not have anything here.'' And it is precisely this type of attitude that we are trying to change, and I think that we are now starting to see results.
The Chair: Was the provincial Ministry of Education involved in this policy?
Mr. Ouellet: Yes.
The Chair: Did the ministry officials participate in drafting the policy?
Mr. Bourque: We do not know.
The Chair: You have no idea?
Mr. Bourque: We really do not have any details. I do know that Marcel Ouellette was hired to draft the policy. He submitted it to the Parliament of New Brunswick, to the provincial legislature, excuse me, and we did not receive any answer, we never received any documents or response. There is very little information.
Mr. Ouellet: I thought I heard that there was a representative from the Ministry of Education on the committee. So there were several individuals involved.
The Chair: Interesting.
Senator Corbin: I am a hardcore booklover and I browse in every francophone bookstore that comes across my path. I am happy to learn that the Librairie Soleil in Ottawa sells your books, but I also shop in another fairly significant store, the Coin du livre, which is just outside the downtown area. Also, I do not know the name of the organization, but these are Ontario francophone teachers who have a huge store in the downtown area, in what used to be known as Vanier.
Mr. Bourque: The CFA.
Senator Corbin: That is it. They carry all of the school manuals, etc., a lot of Canadian and therefore Quebec products. I cannot tell you whether or not I saw anything from New Brunswick or Acadie in general. I did not see anything at the Coin du livre, so is that the fault of the distributors?
Mr. Ouellet: I do not want to blame anyone. It is the responsibility of the distributors because the Centre franco- ontarien is part of the group of French-Canadian publishers, along with us.
Mr. Bourque: We provide a special service to these bookstores. It is like purchasing advertising in the bookstore. The book is sent or presented, our business agent presents the book to the bookseller, and then he in turn decides if he will take four or five copies on spec to show clients. Unfortunately, the bookseller often never bothers to show them to his clients and so the books remain in their boxes and are returned after a certain amount of time. This is still going on, unfortunately. We have tried to ensure that our business agent is more vigilant with respect to this matter, but it is not that easy since there are many bookstores to cover. It is unfortunate.
Senator Corbin: Yes.
Mr. Bourque: It hurts me to hear that our books are not there, because we pay for this.
Senator Corbin: Because there is a tremendous number of Acadians living in Quebec and outside of Quebec as well.
Mr. Bourque: Yes.
Senator Corbin: This is a potential market for your production, there is no doubt about that. Finally, I would like to know, if this is not a professional secret, how many books do you print, on average, for a first edition?
Mr. Ouellet: That depends on the genre.
Senator Corbin: Do not talk about genre, because this is sponsorship. But on average.
Mr. Ouellet: The novel, if I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Paul, but the novel is —
Mr. Bourque: But that depends, it is different for everybody.
Mr. Ouellet: Yes. It depends on the author you are publishing.
Senator Corbin: Known or unknown.
Mr. Ouellet: If the author is known, we print more books.
Mr. Bourque: We never print fewer than 500 copies. Even if we are printing a book of poetry written by a new author, we always produce at least 500 copies. We can sell them.
Mr. Ouellet: We recently published a brick by the author Jules Boudreau on Acadian theatre, and it includes eight plays. We are talking about a brick of about 500 or so pages. This is not something that is going to make a lot of money. First of all, this will not sell, but my objective in publishing this book was not to make money, but rather because I had made a promise to a playwright who is now deceased; I told him that I would produce a collection of theatrical works, plays written by Acadian authors, for the Centre d'études acadiennes at the University of Moncton. I began this project in 1995 or 1996, and from time to time, I publish it; the Council for the Arts requires that, for theatrical works, we print a minimum of 350 copies. The number may be somewhat higher for children's books.
Senator Losier-Cool: And for poetry?
Mr. Bourque: For poetry, a minimum of 500. Georgette Leblanc, whom I would like to point out to you, produced a book which got us through 2007 and will continue on for several more years. She won the Félix Leclerc prize in Quebec with this book. This is the first time that a non-Quebecker has ever won this award. She also won the Antonine Maillet- Acadie-Vie prize with this book, and she was a finalist for the Émile Nelligan prize. In less than a year we have had to print this book three times. We started with 500 copies and we have printed 750 copies twice since then. We have about 300 copies left. So you can see that poetry can sell. Do not be mistaken. It is not because something is culturally valid that it will not sell.
Senator Losier-Cool: I do not have that book.
Mr. Bourque: I will leave it for you.
Mr. Ouellet: I would also like to mention the life of a book, once it has been published. This is quite an aggressive market. New publications come out practically every week for francophone books published in Canada, particularly in Quebec. The shelf life of a book is, I would say, about two, three months maximum. If the book is not selling, the booksellers remove it and put it back in the box as Paul mentioned earlier.
Senator Losier-Cool: Very quickly, based on your experience, is the life of a book, whether it be in English or French, different?
Mr. Ouellet: No, it is the same thing.
Senator Losier-Cool: In Canada or in New Brunswick, I should say, is the francophone book in better or worse shape?
Mr. Ouellet: If you go to the big centres, Quebec City, Montreal, etc., obviously the book has a better chance. However, there is more competition. There are many more publishers and distributors. There is also the fact that booksellers are always interested in winning books, and they will make displays, as they say in English. These displays will hit you in the face when you walk into the bookstore, and in order to have this premier spot, you have to negotiate. That is not our problem. The distributor looks after this aspect. He has to do his homework.
Senator Corbin: Do we read less now than we used to and what is the future of the book in Acadia with regard to competition, the Internet, and so on?
Mr. Bourque: We do not know yet, but people have been talking a great deal about e-books. This was supposed to really take off, but people have been saying so for five years and I do not see the results. Obviously, if we start publishing PDF files on the Internet, there would be no more sales. We would not have any more money. So there is not really any miracle solution. I know that some French publishers are very knowledgeable about this. A great deal of analysis is being done right now to see what type of transformation is occurring. I think that, because of computers and the Internet, people, and youth in particular, are reading less and less. This is worrisome. However, if we look at the situation in France, the French read a great deal, so there are still potential markets where we can expand, and this is what we are aiming to do now, we want to make some little inroads into Europe and export our culture there. So I do not know, I have no answer as to what the future will bring, but I do believe that the book will remain for a good while. I sincerely believe so.
Senator Corbin: The same thing happened when the computer came out, people said: "That is the end of everything.''
Mr. Bourque: We had to make CD-ROMs.
Mr. Ouellet: If I may, I would like to take a couple of minutes to explain another way that authors receive payment or copyright. I do not know whether you are familiar with or have heard of the Public Lending Right Commission, in Ottawa.
Senator Corbin: Yes.
Mr. Ouellet: Do you know how it works? The Public Lending Right Commission has a list of all of the public municipal libraries and school libraries in Canada, both English and French, and then it selects 10 libraries where an inventory is carried out once a year, and when the name of an author, with his or her work, is found there, the author is given so much money. However, the authors have to participate in the program. This program began in 1985 and I believe that 4,000 authors enrolled the very first year.
This year, we made payments totalling close to $9 million to 16,000 authors. And every year, and I am speaking here as the new chair of the commission, we are always after the Canada Council to increase the budget for authors. In 1985, the first authors received $400 for each title. In 2008, they get barely $40 for each title. There has been an increase in the number of authors who take part in the program, but the amount has remained the same, year after year. It is a constant battle with the Canadian government to get increases. In order to get the same amount or to get something close to the $400, we would need to have close to $2 million, perhaps a little more, to distribute to authors.
The Chair: Times is flying by, Mr. Ouellet and Mr. Bourque, and I must now thank you for taking the time to come and meet with us.
Mr. Bourque: It was an honour for me. Thank you very much.
The Chair: We have received some very good information. You can be sure that it will be helpful in drafting our report at the end of this study. So thank you very much, gentlemen.
Mr. Ouellet: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Honourable senators, on behalf of committee members, I am pleased to welcome our next two witnesses. Ms. Ginette Duguay, from school district 9 in the Acadian Peninsula, is a literacy mentor for cultural and identity development. And from the Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick, we have Ms. Anne-Marie Gammon, President.
As is our custom, I will be asking each of you to make a five- to seven-minute presentation, after which senators will have some questions for you.
Anne-Marie Gammon, President, Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick: Madam Chair, I will give you a little background about myself. I am a teacher. I taught for 32.7 years in various environments, in the English-language system, worked in school adjustment programs and as vice-principal and principal. I have worked at all the different levels. I have taught in all the French-language schools in the Bathurst region, and I had the pleasure of teaching with Senator Cool. In my first teaching position in Sainte-Famille, the senator was teaching French as a second language to grade five students, who were also my students as well. I believe that you were teaching this program to all the students at that time.
Since my retirement from teaching, not from life, I have held the position of project officer for the Association des aînés francophones, employment advisor for women, the coordinator of a project called "Capsule santé'', under which we produced some health tips, TV programs and workbooks to promote health among francophones with literacy issues in the northeastern part of the province. At the moment, I am the president of the Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick, the outgoing president of the New Brunswick Coalition for Pay Equity, and I was recently elected as a municipal counsellor and school board trustee.
Madam Chair, honourable senators, I am pleased to be here to talk to you about the federation and its vision regarding the importance of arts and culture in education. I would like to give you a little background on the federation. In 1994, the government of the day abolished school boards and set up an Education Commission. The members of the commission were appointed by the government to manage the province's education system. In 1999, when the next government came into office, one of its election promises had been to re-establish school boards. That was done, in a slightly different form, and that is now called the New Brunswick School Boards. There are five in New Brunswick. After a few years, people understood that they needed to establish a federation.
Despite the fact that the School Act provides an education manager and a fund to finance all the activities of school boards, the presidents of these bodies thought it would be a good idea to set up a federation. At the federation we discuss provincial issues. That is why I am here today, because the arts and culture are of interest to all school boards. It is an issue that school boards must deal with, and the federation speaks on their behalf.
Our objective is to facilitate the work done by district school boards in their primary responsibility of managing French-language schools. We feel very strongly about section 23 of the Charter, which gives eligible parents the right to manage their institutions, including schools.
Under section 23 of the Charter, one of the important features is the passing on of the language and culture. And that is one of the most important roles we have as district school boards. The federation represents the school boards, looks after outreach and acts as their representative in provincial matters, as I explained earlier. It also looks after training and the distribution of information to the district school boards.
The federation is dedicated to promoting the development of a francophone and Acadian society that stresses public education, celebrates our language and culture and defends the rights and interests of the francophone community in New Brunswick. Education becomes part of our efforts to ensure the survival of the francophone community.
As regards our vision of the arts and culture in our educational system in New Brunswick, we think that the survival of our francophone community depends on education and the arts and culture. Without these important pillars, the francophone community as we know it, which is both so vital and so fragile, is doomed to disappear. The role of the arts and culture in our French-language schools in minority communities must therefore be heightened and emphasized. The artistic and educational communities must get to know each other better, understand better their mutual needs and work together better to achieve what needs to be done. This is necessary for us to maintain what we have achieved, but also to guarantee the development of our francophone communities that share a language, a culture and a history — in other words a heritage.
The arts and culture are vital in building the identity of francophone students. The role of the arts and culture in schools has become an issue for society, particularly in minority communities, where schools have a dual mandate: to have their students succeed and to help build their identity.
The Department of Education has made a commitment to develop a strong cultural and linguistic identity. Furthermore, the department is about to establish a committee that will look into the special challenges facing the francophone community. We look forward to this committee with optimism and impatience. In this regard, community bodies interested in French, including our federation, are preparing to put forward their views to the head of this committee, once he or she is named.
The Fédération des conseils d'éducation took part in the education, arts and culture component that was held as part of the Estates General on Arts and Culture in the Acadian Peninsula in May 2007. The themes were the integration of professional artists and their work into the school environment, teaching arts and culture, and the school in the community: a place for cultural development.
We know that there are many good initiatives underway at the moment and that we must build on what we have to promote cohesion and give a greater role to the arts and culture in students' lives, particularly those living in official language minority communities.
The report on this project on education, the arts and culture, highlighted the positive features, and the challenges, and made some recommendations to better integrate the arts and culture into the current education system. One positive finding was that government authorities and the district school boards are very aware of their dual mandate: to provide an education and to build an identity.
In a number of districts, there is a move to give the arts and culture a greater role within schools. A number of school boards have already established cultural policies. They also have people like Ms. Duguay, with various titles. They do not always use the same title she has, which is literacy officer. Sometimes these people are called cultural officers.
In our community schools, something new in New Brunswick is to have community development officers. And the role of these individuals is to bring more culture and more of the arts to the school to bring the community closer to the school.
Saint-André School has become an entrepreneurial community model for the province. If you are familiar with the movement at the school, there is a major emphasis on entrepreneurial considerations and another on the arts and culture.
The children at this school have produced a disk, a recipe book and a number of other things. These initiatives are funded by the official languages in education program.
In conclusion, the school boards must be part of the follow-up to the Estates General on the Arts and Culture and develop cultural and linguistic policies in a coherent way. They will have to determine their ultimate objectives, because school boards are responsible for the ultimate objectives in schools. When we talk about "ultimate objectives'', we have in mind the education that students should have by the time they complete grade 12. School boards are responsible for that.
So in our opinion at the federation, school boards should be involved at all stages in the decision-making process for the introduction of the arts and culture into our schools. We are the people who make the decisions; we are responsible for this. Because school boards are the only body responsible for education at the provincial level.
At the moment, there are parent support committees in schools in New Brunswick that help run the school, but when it comes to policies for school districts, the school boards are responsible for this, and that is why their involvement is so important.
School boards should also take a position on the issue of cultural development and be front-line partners. I am repeating this, because I think it is important. However, school boards should be front-line partners in future discussions regarding the development of infrastructure to support the arts and culture in their community.
I should tell you that the document you received is a draft. I printed out the wrong document this morning. I am a woman with many hats this morning, and I pushed the wrong button. When I leave here, I will send the clerk a copy of the right document, including the corrections, by e-mail. The structure, the sentences have been changed.
Ginette Duguay, Mentor in Literacy and Cultural and Identity Development, School District 9 of the Acadian Peninsula: Good afternoon, Madam Chair, and thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee. I am a field worker. For the last three years in School District 9 in the Acadian Peninsula, which is 99.9 per cent francophone, we have been trying to play a proactive role, to use the arts and culture as tools to develop the culture and identity of young people.
How can we equip teachers and the school management with the tools they need to assume this role? As we know, schools are responsible for passing on culture, but I am not sure we have the tools we need. So we have tried to equip these people by hiring people like myself and by hiring cultural and linguistic officers.
We talk about development, because we need to develop, we need to create, and we need to know who we are and what we want. We need to know our school community and what we can give young people as part of their cultural development. We also need to know the community in which the school is located very well, as well as its artistic and cultural community.
We started by setting up a cultural policy. With that, we have the basis we need to protect our culture to some extent. When we established this policy, we set out the guiding principles we need to develop and to build.
The guiding principles are: to build children's cultural and linguistic identity; to develop a feeling of belonging to the francophone and Acadian community; to support the linguistic and cultural vitality of our region; to develop attitudes that encourage children to live in French and to speak French and to develop the creativity, team approach, self-esteem and leadership required for the linguistic and cultural vitality of our region.
We developed a cultural mandate for our schools, and that involves producing citizens who are active artistically and culturally. I will come back with more concrete information later.
It is important to build bridges between the schools and the cultural community by establishing relationships with the entire francophone cultural network. The presence of people like myself means that we can build ties with all the cultural bodies in our region because principals and teachers cannot always see how an art gallery could have an impact on learning. I will speak about this in more concrete terms in a few moments.
Our role is not just to disseminate the arts and culture, but also to educate young people to become responsible consumers of culture.
Let me now turn to some concrete examples. And I should make one very important point. For the last three years, the official languages program has been transferring money to school boards and since that time, three cultural and linguistic officers have been hired, and one mentor, myself, as well. In the last three years, we have been able to take concrete steps such as the hiring of those individuals, to work on development, not just animation activities. Without development, our efforts are not sustainable. People are in place, but they do not necessarily know what their mandate is, and this is not always clear when it comes to the arts and culture. So we introduced a cultural policy and then looked at whether we would do animation activities or development, development both for the school and for the cultural and artistic community. These individuals play a leadership role in the area of culture by building links or bridges between the community, the school and their respective area of activity. The fact is that in rural communities, we do not have many specialists, but we do have a great many artists. It is very important to recognize their role, but it is also important to provide support to artists within the schools, because this must be done properly. There is a proper approach, and we provide this type of support.
They have a mandate to support them, and must also develop the tools to support the administration and staff in carrying out their cultural conduit role. We know we have a responsibility, but it is not always easy to take action, and there is no instant solution. Support is very important and training for these people is also important because they often come from the cultural sector. It is important to have artists involved in the development because they have a vision, they have a creative process which we can benefit from in our schools.
To know how to go into a school and do development work, we decided to draw up a cultural profile of our 22 schools. We wanted to determine the direction, actions and development goals that we wanted to implement, so that we could take part and support school principals and teachers in integrating the cultural, identity and artistic aspects within their educational plan and mission. Then, we went a little further. We said: "We have a community, so we are going to draw up a cultural profile of our communities to see what they have to offer our schools.''
We wanted to acknowledge the educational value of artistic, cultural and literary activities. So, we looked at what existed in our region, how groups and individuals could come to support our schools, then we accompanied cultural and artistic groups so that they could be integrated within schools. By drawing up these profiles, we laid out the groundwork for cultural development.
I would now like to address partnership and development. We currently have a rural art gallery, the Galerie d'art Bernard Jean at the Caraquet Cultural Centre. We said it was important. It is important to me. It is important for the schools, but how can we support it so that the youth, their parents, and the community value it? I am first and foremost a teacher, so, with my cultural workers, we produced an accompaniment guide for art galleries: How do you visit an art gallery? What do you do there? How do you behave? What kind of issues should the teacher look into?
We gave the gallery these tools and then asked each exhibiting artist to be there with the students because it is important for the artist to see them and for them to see the creator of the works of art. So, we gave our art gallery the tools it needed. We went back to the basics, to see how better to accompany them and then we said: "If you can go get a grant to do this, all the better.''
We have a very significant partnership with the Salon du livre de la Péninsule acadienne. As far as we are concerned the youth component is managed by the school district, meaning at least 95 visits in schools, and that is part of my duties within the school district of the Acadian Peninsula.
You know that I also play a literacy role; if there is a cultural event taking place, and there are artists or writers there, we must take part in this literacy movement. We support each other.
And at one point, we said: "How can we better integrate artists and their media within schools and recognize that they play a role when it comes to learning, cultural development and identity?'' We created an annual cultural menu involving several components. This year it was video, improvisation and visual arts. So we look within our community to find people who are prepared to give workshops, but not at any price. The schools are responsible for paying the artists.
By recognizing the role and significance of cultural and identity development, we saw that it was important to offer quality cultural programming free of charge for all students from kindergarten to grade 12. You know, this is the Acadian Peninsula. The economic situation is what it is. Should children in the Peninsula not have access to quality shows? So we got to work and we currently are responsible for a $60,000 annual budget so children from kindergarten to Grade 12 can have access to quality entertainment. Each year we try to offer them a different media.
There is one premise that is important to us, Acadian first. We start by seeking quality artistic and cultural products from here first, but if we cannot find it here, we will go elsewhere. We try to wholeheartedly support our two theatre groups, le Théâtre l'Escaouette and the TPA, by giving them as much business as we can.
Why would we go looking elsewhere for shows or plays when high-quality plays like "Vie de cheval'' are shown here. This year, what we did in our programming was to ask them, if they did not have something to offer, to direct us and suggest certain plays.
Learning through culture enhances student education. It actively includes the basics of adaptive dimension pedagogy. Some young people learn through arts and culture and only that way. It is good for self-esteem and gives students a sense of belonging to a community. It has a direct effect on identity development. It shows to what extent arts and culture bring people together.
I would like to point out that the Acadian Peninsula is a community in need of being brought together. I had a mandate when I took on this position, and it was to bring the youth together through arts and culture.
In summary, it allows for the dissemination of artistic projects. It is an essential link which gives meaning to schools. Without this type of programming, you cannot carry out cultural and identity development.
Senator Champagne: Thank you for coming this afternoon and for sharing with us everything that is happening in your beautiful part of the country. I must say that I was pleased to hear, two days before we left to come here, that the federal government and the province of New Brunswick had reiterated their commitment to French education in the province. It may not be a huge amount, but still, 1.7 million additional dollars can certainly help, and hopefully some of it will make its way to you.
When you recruited these cultural workers, you said you wanted artists. But I would imagine there must have been other factors. You were in charge of finding them, recruiting them, so, what were you looking for at the start and what did you find to get the results you wanted?
Ms. Duguay: First of all we were looking for people who knew the community. Not necessarily the school community. I knew it, so I could brief them on the basics. That is something you can learn when you go into schools. I do not know why, but it is easy to learn the basics, etc. What mattered to me was for these people to have a good knowledge of their community. We have four regions, and three and a half cultural workers, and it was important for these people to know their communities and to have contact points within them.
Senator Champagne: And did you find what you were looking for?
Ms. Duguay: We did.
Senator Champagne: In fact, that is the most important thing. What is the first thing a cultural worker has to do when arriving in the region you have assigned to him or her? What is the cultural worker really supposed to do in that school when he or she gets there?
Ms. Duguay: Well, there are seven or eight schools which she has to deal with. That means knowing the culture, the cultural profile, of those schools. That is important. There are five components in a cultural profile, so she has to know what the school's status is, talk with the school's principal and the student body and determine their needs. What do they want to work on? What do they want to explore that year? Often, the cultural workers feed the school, as it were. Cultural workers feed the school's management and the student body by knowing their community. We set the table for them, and then provide a meal that is so interesting that they become really engaged.
Senator Champagne: I find the whole idea extraordinary, and I hope that, with all the work you seem to put into this, you get the results you hope for.
Ms. Duguay: Thank you.
Ms. Gammon: In other districts, cultural workers may also be called community development workers, where we do community development. That is very similar to what they do, what they call literacy development.
In other regions, literacy workers deal with this, because as you know in our region 66.7 per cent of the population has a literacy level lower than 2. So you can see that in schools, children are having literacy problems. Arts and culture is one means that helps us in developing literacy.
That is why the federation strongly believes in the importance of these cultural workers. Regardless of what we call them — community development workers, arts and culture development workers, literacy development workers, or anything else — their work is very, very important. We want to help our people survive, we want to make it possible for French language and culture to survive among our people, so we have to ensure that our students improve their literacy.
Senator Champagne: Obviously, literacy then becomes quite fundamental.
Ms. Gammon: Yes.
Senator Champagne: Otherwise, they will not be able to read the books we were talking about earlier, and be blocked from a lot of other things.
Ms. Gammon: Exactly.
Senator Champagne: And if that can be achieved through the arts, you will certainly have my support.
Ms. Duguay: Thank you.
Ms. Gammon: The literacy programs in New Brunswick are now what we call educational, so are geared more to people who want to get a job or go back to work. If you are a parent, a grandparent or a significant person in a child's life, if you want to improve the child's French literacy, that is very difficult. In the past, there were 250 or so literacy classes, while now there are only 55. That is why it is so important for our schools to have something that motivates children to read, or to want to have books around, because often they are no books at home. So when we say that the literacy level is under 2, we are talking about people whose reading comprehension is under fifth-grade level.
Senator Losier-Cool: My questions are on funding. Are the cultural development programs funded solely by the Department of Education? Someone mentioned the official languages program. Does all or part of the funding come from the official languages program?
Ms. Gammon: Yes. One portion comes from the department through the official languages program, particularly funding for artistic and cultural development agents, like Ms. Duguay. But some districts that have community schools — schools within the community, a new concept in New Brunswick — have to seek funding from partners in the community. The community schools concept began as a pilot project, with Saint-André as one such school. Robertville School was another, and there was one more in the southwest. All were community schools, and received a lot of funding. That funding came from the federal government, specifically to develop community schools, within the community.
Then the provincial Department of Education adopted the concept. Now, five schools are identified across the province each year, one school in each district. They are renamed community schools, and have funding for community development workers.
In Étoile du Nord, a sub-district in School District 5, management obtained over $500,000, in partnership with the community, to fund the community schools concept and ensure that the community is there in the schools and that people and programs can be funded.
Senator Losier-Cool: So community schools are not just in francophone school districts?
Ms. Gammon: They are community schools.
Senator Losier-Cool: So the cultural development thrust can be provided in anglophone schools as well?
Ms. Duguay: Our mandate is twofold. Is education in English — I do not know.
Senator Losier-Cool: You are not sure if that concept exists outside the francophone districts.
Ms. Duguay: I do not know whether that cultural and identity development concept exists elsewhere, no.
Senator Losier-Cool: How long has the program been in place?
Ms. Duguay: In District 9, it has been in place since 2005. We have a budget from the official languages program. As I said earlier, without it we could not do any cultural and identity development.
Senator Losier-Cool: Do you have some assurance that the budget will be maintained?
Ms. Duguay: I think so. My management team is in the room. I think yes. But if we do not have it, we do have the funding for education. It is like a sundae, where we can add things to the basic ice cream.
Ms. Gammon: Community schools exist in both language communities, but the cultural and identity development component is stronger in francophone community schools, because we are surrounded by anglophone arts and culture. It is a real challenge, because young people find it cool to speak English, cool to hear English music, and cool to do all that stuff.
Senator Losier-Cool: It is still cool.
Ms. Gammon: It is a real challenge. We are very lucky in our schools now to have people like her to help the teachers. By having those activities, by seeing those artists, young people are impressed and it is very, very important for them. Young people are fascinated by all that, and they see that it is really cool now to have artistic and cultural activities in French.
Senator Losier-Cool: Ms. Duguay, in your presentation you said you wanted to develop cultural consumers, and that is part of your mandate as well. I think that is the term you used.
Ms. Duguay: Yes.
Senator Losier-Cool: In the past three years, have you been able to assess whether young people are consuming more French-language products, or still buying American music?
Ms. Duguay: I have not gone through all the measures we have taken. For example, one thing that is important for me as a consumer of arts and culture is not to go have to see a show in a gym. We need to have enough self-respect as human beings to go see our shows in theatres and proper venues. That is very important to us. Children see the shows in theatres and proper venues.
Yes, because we are in the process of establishing partnerships with cultural entities. Those people work really hard, and often it is particularly women who work hard with small budgets to try to create partnerships and put on family- oriented shows.
There is a lot of work to do in educating parents on quality shows, shows that are something other than magic shows or American shows. I think that young people are indeed very proud of our shows, and ask for them.
On the development side, we have to move on to the next stage. That is where they do the selection, and they become culturally engaged. We are going to arrange a conference on young people as the vehicles of culture, and then use the Congrès mondial acadien to carry on the momentum, to wake people up and to engage them.
We have a number of avenues for development, and we use the theoretical SELF framework and the theoretical framework of a young researcher to determine how to engage young people, and to determine what actions are sustainable. We will go level by level.
Senator Losier-Cool: That is also a very extensive challenge from a chronological standpoint.
Ms. Duguay: It is a development effort, yes.
Senator Losier-Cool: This morning, the witnesses we heard talked about the lack of infrastructure, about the lack of theatres and performance venues in the region.
Ms. Duguay: Yes.
Senator Losier-Cool: So the young people you want to develop as cultural consumers will, in a few years, be those making demands and putting on pressure — political pressure, if necessary — to have the infrastructure. I thank you very much for the excellent work you are doing.
Ms. Duguay: Thank you.
Senator Losier-Cool: I congratulate you.
Ms. Gammon: In the new educational specifications and guidelines set out when schools are built, we have to ensure that theatres are provided. Quite often, when a school is built and there are budget cuts, the performance venues are cut. This is an important specification.
I also wanted to point out that the problem of establishing arts and culture is twofold — there is an issue with training and with recruiting people to come to rural regions like Chaleur and the Acadian Peninsula. The district is lucky because Ms. Duguay is from the peninsula. That is her home, she is proud of it, so she can contribute. But to get people with appropriate education to come and teach in a New Brunswick classroom, it is difficult. You need a basic degree and an education degree, and that means experts in the arts need to get a first degree, like a bachelor of arts, then do a year in education, and that means four, five and even six years of education. It is quite a challenge to recruit people to work in arts and culture, and to do the development needed in our schools. With regard to recruitment, I know that some school districts have hired recruitment workers to meet the needs at all levels, but specifically in arts and culture, because we already have a problem there.
Senator Losier-Cool: Do those programs and that development exist elsewhere? Are there any literacy mentors among Franco-Ontarians?
Ms. Gammon: There are cultural facilitation programs, and that is more or less the same thing. I provide support. You cannot let those people do whatever they like because they do not know the school system. I have been there 20 or so years, so I know it. I have managed to understand it, because it does need to be understood and worked with. But someone who comes in from the outside for development can have a hard time. In Ontario, they did have the concept, but at some point it just did not work.
Research tells us that we need specific people to promote cultural development in schools, if it is going to happen. We need those people. I did not want to do facilitation. When you do facilitation, you beat your wings a lot and at some point you cannot get off the ground anymore. You just get exhausted.
The Chair: Yes, that is right.
Ms. Gammon: We took stock and gained awareness, made those development efforts and tried to take sustainable action. We recognized the problem, and we have developed young people.
The Chair: I have a question, which is a supplementary to those questions put by Senator Losier-Cool. Earlier, you talked about funding and you said that you received funding under the Official Languages Program. Does that go through federal or provincial education funding agreements, or are there three envelopes — first language, second language and special projects? Or do you get funding under the other agreement, the Canada-community agreement, or under the Official Languages Action Plan? Do you know?
Ms. Duguay: I do not know.
Ms. Gammon: The funding comes from two sources — some under the Official Languages Action Plan, and some under the Official Languages and Education Plan. Most of it comes from the latter source.
The Chair: Are those not the education agreements? There are three envelopes.
Ms. Gammon: In New Brunswick, the situation is somewhat different because the funding is transferred to the Department of Education, which then distributes it within the province. Some of that funding is also put towards immersion programs.
The Association des enseignants et des enseignantes francophones du Nouveau-Brunswick (AEFNB) has been asking for detailed explanations of what is done with the funding from the federal government for years. They want to know where that money goes.
We hope that the education commissioner will be appointed soon, because that will be one of his or her tasks. It will be one of the French-language educational challenges to deal with, because our mission is not only an educational mission, but also a mission to build our young people's cultural identity.
This is very, very important in francophone culture, because it is cultural workers like her who build it at the arts and culture level.
The Estates General were funded primarily by the federal government, or at least largely by the federal government — that is the Estates General on Arts and Culture — and I think a lot of the funding came from Canadian Heritage. That woke up the province like nothing else did to the arts and culture needs within the educational sphere, and made them aware that this can ensure — almost guarantee — the survival of our French language and culture.
Senator Corbin: First of all, I would like to congratulate you. The work you do is extraordinary. I would have liked to have services like that when I myself was at school. It is only later in life that we realize everything that we have missed, and today's students are lucky to have people like you to help in their personal and community development. There is no doubt about it.
You have talked about integrating artists into the schools. I am putting this question specifically to Ms. Duguay. You said that the school would cover the costs. How would that work?
Ms. Duguay: When we institute our development measures, we look around in the community, have discussions with school management and teachers, so that we can target the areas where they want us to get resource people. This year it was theatre, and staging.
Senator Losier-Cool: For your whole sector?
Ms. Gammon: Yes.
Ms. Duguay: Yes, in all 22 schools. There was a video component, a visual art component, and a theatre component. We looked within the community to find people who wanted to come and help with staging, because there was a staging component, a scriptwriting component, a drama culture component. So we looked around in the community, then negotiated with the artists. We recognize the artist's role, so there needs to be a salary with the job, an appropriate salary. When artists come into our schools, they bring the fruits of what they have learned. They bring educational goals. This artist's mandate was to write a play, and to stage and direct it. These schools do not do those negotiations, we do. We have the names of people who come in, but we prepare a schedule for them. We organize it for the school, and then the artists can come and do their work.
Senator Corbin: You prepare a schedule for the year?
Ms. Duguay: A schedule, a program. It is the cultural menu. I gave you a copy.
Senator Corbin: Is Paquetville in your sector?
Ms. Duguay: Yes, it is.
Senator Corbin: Is Édith Butler involved in a program like that?
Ms. Duguay: Ms. Butler was very involved in one of our community schools. She became the program's godmother, and next year, in 2009, she will be part of the cultural programming because she will be touring the schools.
Senator Corbin: All 22 schools?
All 22 schools. We have to be careful, because for the longest time people thought that kids at the kindergarten level, teenagers and young adults could all see the same show. We do not accept that. We have shows for kindergarten level at age three, ages four to six, ages seven to nine, ages ten to twelve, and sometimes ages seven to twelve. That is the secondary level, all three cycles, and then secondary one, two and three.
When we started taking on the costs of cultural programming, we had to change things and to tell school principals that we could not put on the same shows for kindergarten kids and older kids.
And there are groups like Les Jeunesses Musicales, young musicians, and that's not negotiable. Young people have to hear the music. It comes from outside, and that is all right, because if not, they would never come to know such forms of music as opera, among other things.
Senator Corbin: At one point, you said that the Acadian Peninsula needed to be brought together. What did you mean by that?
Ms. Duguay: As you know, the Acadian Peninsula is made up of four large regions that are fairly isolated. But I believe in the power of arts and culture. It has no barriers. There is no limit that stops us from bringing the young people together. We are seeing young people move away, young families move away, and what we need to tell them is that they would be fine if they stayed here. They would be fine if they stayed, not if they left. We need to do something to keep them here.
We believe in the power of arts and culture. We set up a cultural event called Buzz Arts, which lasts four or five days a year. It is an arts and culture exhibit of what was done in our schools, and it has no borders. It takes place at Shippagan, but it really has no borders. That is what arts and culture are all about. It does not work against things, it is a positive force.
Senator Corbin: I congratulate you again.
Senator Losier-Cool: Yes, absolutely.
Senator Corbin: What you are doing is fantastic.
Ms. Gammon: It is doubly difficult to do what we do in the Acadian Peninsula in a bilingual environment, like at the Centre Samuel de Champlain, the Centre Beausoleil and the Chaleur region, because those are regions where the language breakdown is 51 per cent and 49 per cent. It is more difficult to rally young people together. It is more difficult. The language issue is particularly thorny in the Chaleur region. Rose-Marie knows all about it, because she comes from there.
We have to be careful with the language issue, and that means in our region that it is doubly difficult to bring people together, because there are many, many mixed-language marriages.
The Chair: But you do it anyway.
Ms. Gammon: Yes, we do it anyway. We do it, but it is more difficult to bring people together than it is in regions like the Peninsula where everyone speaks the same language, or at least most people do.
Senator Losier-Cool: Ms. Gammon, now that you have been elected to the municipal council, you have to bring this challenge before them. The Bathurst municipal council has to reflect very carefully on what's happening in the entire Chaleur region.
Ms. Gammon: We have already begun to do that. We took the oath in both languages. It was the first time it was taken in French.
Senator Losier-Cool: There you go.
The Chair: Ladies, I would like to thank you both very sincerely on behalf of the members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Your testimony has been very interesting. I come from Manitoba, I must confess I am jealous. We have to find success elsewhere and perhaps see how we can reproduce it in our own regions. Thank you, congratulations, and we wish you every success.
The committee adjourned.