Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 1 - Evidence - April 29, 2009
OTTAWA, Wednesday, April 29, 2009
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:01 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to organize the activities of the committee.
[English]
Shaila Anwar, Clerk of the Committee: Honourable senators, I see a quorum. I would like to inform you that at its meeting held on April 27, 2009, the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence created a Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs and appointed the Honourable Senator Michael Meighen as its chair.
Unfortunately, Senator Meighen is unavoidably absent today. Therefore, as the clerk of your subcommittee, it is my duty to preside over the election of an acting chair. I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Wallin: I would like to move that Senator Banks be nominated for the position of acting chair.
Ms. Anwar: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Wallin that the Honourable Senator Banks do take the chair of the subcommittee. Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
Ms. Anwar: I declare the motion carried. Senator Banks, would you please take the chair?
Senator Tommy Banks (Acting Chair) in the chair.
The Acting Chair: Thank you. Is there a motion to nominate a committee member as deputy chair of the committee?
Senator Wallin: I would like to move that Honourable Senator Banks be deputy chair of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
Senator Kenny: I move nominations be closed.
The Acting Chair: Then I declare me elected as the deputy chair.
Senator Tommy Banks (Deputy Chair) in the chair.
The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much colleagues. I am grateful and I will try to work hard to justify your faith.
There are a number of motions before us that I would propose we undertake now in order to proceed with the proper business of the committee.
Before we do that, I would like to point out that I was wrong, Senator Wallin, when I described the differences between the previous order of reference for this subcommittee and the presently proposed order. You can see the white page is the old order of reference and the yellow page is the proposed new one. The effect is about the same, but it is worded more clearly, and I was wrong when I described to you yesterday what the differences are.
Senator Wallin: Is it only because of the difference in language and words here?
The Deputy Chair: Yes. The effect is about the same.
Senator Wallin: What do you mean "about"?
The Deputy Chair: Yesterday I told you that the RCMP was previously included in last year's order of reference and I want to correct that. It was not, but it is now. The other changes in language are simply for more clarity.
Senator Wallin: I do not think there was any disagreement about the RCMP being included.
The Deputy Chair: No. The subcommittee has always dealt with the RCMP in any case because they are quasi- military. This makes it more specific.
Senator Kenny: Do you mean paramilitary instead of quasi-military?
The Deputy Chair: Yes, the language has been paramilitary. You are right.
Is there a motion that the chair and deputy chair be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses and to schedule hearings?
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: May I have a motion that this subcommittee print its proceedings, and that chair be authorized to set the number to meet demand?
Senator Kenny: I so move.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: Is there a motion that, pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and to authorize the printing of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the subcommittee from both the government and opposition is present?
Senator Kenny: So moved.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: Is there a motion that this subcommittee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee, that the chair and deputy chair be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the subcommittee, and that the chair, on behalf of the subcommittee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies analyses, summaries and draft reports?
Senator Wallin: I so move.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: Is there a motion that, pursuant to section 7, Chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the subcommittee; that pursuant to section 8, Chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules authority for certifying accounts payable by the subcommittee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair and the clerk of the subcommittee; and that, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair?
Senator Kenny: So moved.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: Is there a motion that the subcommittee empower the chair and deputy chair to designate, as required, one or more members of the subcommittee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the subcommittee?
Senator Wallin: So moved.
The Deputy Chair: Do honourable senators agree?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Deputy Chair: None are opposed. The motion is carried.
I need a motion that the chair and deputy chair be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the subcommittee is on "official business" for the purpose of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators' Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the subcommittee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the subcommittee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the subcommittee; and
That the chair and deputy chair report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the subcommittee travelling on subcommittee business.
Senator Wallin: So moved.
The Deputy Chair: All those in favour? Carried.
Is there a motion that pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the subcommittee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and the payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances?
Senator Wallin: So moved.
The Deputy Chair: All those in favour? The motion is carried.
Is there a motion that the chair and deputy chair be empowered to allow coverage by electronic media of the subcommittee's public proceedings with the least possible disruption of its hearings at its discretion?
Senator Kenny: I would like to talk about this.
The Deputy Chair: Senator Wallin made that motion; it has been moved. It is now under discussion.
Senator Kenny: I spoke about this at the last meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. I would like the committee meetings moved next door to the room used for the Aboriginal Peoples Committee. The only change in the room set-up would be to move the witness table up so that it is closer to where the committee members sit. Right now, it is a long shout. It would essentially look like a capital A in the room. Now we have a U-shaped room with the witnesses across, at the bottom. I am suggesting that this table for witnesses just be moved up so it is closer. That would be the only change in the room's layout.
Failing that, I recommend that this committee sit on the one side over here and the witnesses on another side over there. I say this for television purposes, and it is also easier to chat with somebody if you are facing them. It is like having a conversation with one person sitting at that end of the table and another person another that end. It is not a good way to communicate.
I would like us to endeavour each week to have CPAC tape that. I am not sure whether I should vary the motion with an amendment or come up with a new motion. My intent is to have a motion that says that the subcommittee would normally televise its work, unless there was a reason not to televise its work, rather than it being the other way around. It appears to be the exception when it is televised.
The Deputy Chair: Would you think substitution in the present motion of the word "seek" rather than "allow" would do the job?
Senator Kenny: It would. If the proposer would be prepared to have that amendment, that would accomplish my aims.
Senator Wallin: "Seek" is also seeking it out.
The Deputy Chair: I am suggesting that because, as you know, we cannot determine that. We must always apply for that. Given the time, I think that, when we apply for it, it will be almost automatic.
Senator Kenny: The problem comes up with who is in the room, and whether they can get their equipment in and operating without interfering with anything. For some reason, I think there is a caucus in the room until about 10 a.m., so they would have from 10 a.m. until noon.
Senator Wallin: Why do we not say "seek when possible," then?
Senator Kenny: Does the Rules Committee meet in that room? Let us beat them to it. Let us ask for it first.
The Deputy Chair: Do they meet until noon?
Ms. Anwar: At noon until 1:30 p.m. They do not necessarily meet every week.
Senator Wallin: If we said to "seek as often as possible" and start to establish that principle —
The Deputy Chair: Is that okay with you, Senator Wallin?
Senator Wallin: I move that the chair and the deputy chair be empowered to seek as often as possible coverage by electronic media, et cetera.
Ms. Anwar: Do you want to include room 160-S in the motion?
Senator Kenny: Or another such room in the Centre Block that would accommodate television.
Ms. Anwar: "To seek as often as possible coverage by electronic media."
The Deputy Chair: We do not need the last part because, by definition, the motion means we will seek meetings in a room equipped television.
Senator Kenny: Yes, but the last part says "Centre Block" because there are other rooms equipped for television but you cannot get to them in time at lunch time.
Senator Wallin: We just stepped out of caucus two minutes ago.
Ms. Anwar: Do you want that at the end of the motion, then, or "as often as possible in the Centre Block"?
Senator Wallin: "Subcommittee's public proceedings to be held in a Centre Block room equipped for television."
The Deputy Chair: Of which there is, in all, one.
Senator Kenny: There has been television in the Railway Committee room upstairs, but I do not know where they could go.
The Deputy Chair: Clerk, could you please read the motion?
Ms. Anwar: It is moved:
That the chair and deputy chair be empowered to seek, as often as possible, coverage by electronic media of the subcommittee's public proceedings, to be held in a room in Centre Block that is equipped for television, with the least possible disruption of its hearings, at its discretion."
The Deputy Chair: It is funny language but it is clear.
Senator Kenny: It is possible. Disruption always bothers me. It takes so much of the buzz away from a good meeting.
Senator Wallin: What is that line?
Ms. Anwar: That is the standard.
The Deputy Chair: It only means that the tail does not wag the dog; that we do not say beyond reason, "Are you ready yet?" and the television producer says, "No, I'm not ready yet."
Senator Wallin: This leads to possible disruption.
Senator Kenny: It was a word that was put in when —
Senator Wallin: — TV was a new thing? Maybe we could move past that.
The Deputy Chair: Also, it is in there to ensure there is not a big television stand with a big camera on it in the middle of the committee room.
Senator Wallin: We should be so lucky if one of those existed.
Senator Kenny: The same issue came up when a television crew wanted to come in. They should just be able to walk in and walk out like a print reporter or a radio reporter.
The Deputy Chair: It is harmless.
Senator Kenny: Yes, but it still should be done away with.
The Deputy Chair: Do you want to eliminate it from the motion?
Senator Wallin: I would be happy with that.
The Deputy Chair: End the motion with "public proceedings," period.
Ms. Anwar: No, "to be held in a room in the Centre Block equipped for television." It is moved:
That the chair and deputy chair be empowered to seek, as often as possible, coverage by electronic media of the subcommittee's public proceedings, to be held in a room in Centre Block that is equipped for television.
The Deputy Chair: All in favour of the motion?
Senator Wallin: Agreed.
Senator Kenny: For the record, I would like to note that I restrained from modifying it to say "with the usual hustle and bustle."
The Deputy Chair: The motion is carried.
Can we now properly deal with the question of the order of reference of the subcommittee? As a subcommittee, can we adopt the proposed order of reference so that it can go forward to the main committee to be presented to the house?
Ms. Anwar: It has already gone to the house.
The Deputy Chair: It has gone as proposed?
Ms. Anwar: Yes.
Senator Wallin: Am I to do something with that today? Yesterday, I asked Senator Comeau to work me in.
Ms. Anwar: The only issue today might be that I do not believe there is a motion to extend the sitting today, so, at four o'clock, time may run out.
The Deputy Chair: There is a motion to extend the sitting today. It was on the Order Paper yesterday.
Senator Wallin: It was usurped by "later."
Senator Kenny: If it is not today, then it will be Tuesday.
The Deputy Chair: Colleagues, we had an informal discussion earlier about witnesses before the main committee. I suggest that we wait in respect of the business of the subcommittee for the chair to determine and propose to us a work plan and a list of witnesses. Is that agreeable?
Senator Kenny: Yes.
Senator Wallin: I think we were just planning to instruct the clerk to begin some initial phone calls.
The Deputy Chair: Calls based on advice from the chair.
Senator Wallin: Right.
The Deputy Chair: If that is agreeable, and if there is no further business, we will adjourn the meeting. Is it agreed? Carried.
(The committee adjourned.)