Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 1 - Evidence - Meeting of March 15, 2010
OTTAWA, Monday, March 15, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:03 p.m., pursuant to rule 88 of the Rules of the Senate, to hold an organization meeting.
[Translation]
Danielle Labonté, Clerk of the Committee: I would like to welcome you to the organization meeting of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Honourable senators, there is a quorum. As the clerk of the committee, it is my duty to preside over the election of the chair.
I am ready to receive a motion to that effect.
Senator Champagne: I move that Senator Chaput do take the chair since she did such a good job last session.
Senator De Bané: Senator Tardif and I second that motion.
Ms. Labonté: Thank you very much. Are there any other nominations?
Senator Mockler: Madam Clerk, I believe it is unanimous.
Ms. Labonté: Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt this motion?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
Ms. Labonté: I declare the motion carried. I invite the Honourable Senator Chaput to take the chair.
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
The Chair: Honourable senators, thank you for trusting me to preside over the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. It is a privilege. I appreciate it and I thank you. Please be assured of my full cooperation.
We are going to move to point 2, which is the election of the deputy chair.
[English]
Senator Seidman: It is a great pleasure for me to nominate Senator Andrée Champagne as the deputy chair of the committee.
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Madam Chair, I would like to second that recommendation both on my behalf and on behalf of Senator Tardif. As my colleague Senator Mockler said, the motion is unanimous.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Seidman, seconded by the Honourable Senators De Bané and Tardif, that the Honourable Senator Champagne be deputy chair of the committee. Honourable senators, is it your pleasure to adopt this motion?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
Senator Champagne: I am guessing that those who were there and saw me chairing our meetings for a few weeks were not too disappointed in my performance.
I am sure you will join me in telling Senator Chaput how delighted we are to see her again here with us in good health.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Point 3, the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. You have the standard motion in front of you that states:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be composed of the chair, the deputy chair, and one other member of the committee, to be designated after the usual consultation; and
That the subcommittee be empowered to make decisions on behalf of the committee with respect to its agenda, to invite witnesses, and to schedule hearings.
The normal term for what we commonly call the steering committee is the subcommittee, is it not?
Ms. Labonté: That is so. The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.
The Chair: We used to call it the steering committee. Could a senator move the motion?
Senator Mockler: Madam Chair, if I may, after consultation, I would like to move that Senator Fortin-Duplessis be third member of the committee.
Senator De Bané: My colleague Senator Tardif and I enthusiastically second the motion.
The Chair: What I have just read is moved by the Honourable Senator Mockler, but also that the third person be Senator Fortin-Duplessis. Is that correct?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is carried unanimously. Thank you Senator Fortin-Duplessis.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you very much.
The Chair: Motion to publish the committee's proceedings. This says "that the committee publish its proceedings and that the chair be authorized to set the number of printed copies to meet demand."
Senator Tardif: I move that motion.
The Chair: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Tardif. Do we need a seconder?
Ms. Labonté: No.
The Chair: That motion as mentioned is moved by the Honourable Senator Tardif. Is it the pleasure of all senators to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Agreed.
The Chair: The motion is carried. As to point 5, which asks for "authorization to hold meetings and receive evidence when quorum is not present," I need an honourable senator to move this motion.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I move that motion.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Fortin-Duplessis that:
Pursuant to rule 89, the chair be authorized to hold meetings, to receive and authorize the publication of the evidence when a quorum is not present, provided that a member of the committee from both the government and the opposition be present.
Is it your pleasure to adopt this motion?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. As to point 6, the financial report, you received what we call the budget, the first report.
Senator Tardif: I move that motion.
The Chair: It is moved by Senator Tardif that the committee adopt the draft first report, prepared in accordance with rule 104. And you received the first report. Do you all have it in front of you?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: Are you ready to adopt the motion?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. We are moving now to point 7, research staff:
That the committee ask the Library of Parliament to assign analysts to the committee, that the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to retain the services of such experts as may be required by the work of the committee, and that the chair, on behalf of the committee, direct the research staff in the preparation of studies, analyses, summaries, and draft reports.
Is there an honourable senator to move this motion?
Senator De Bané: Yes. Madam Chair, I am very pleased to see that Ms. Marie-Ève Hudon from the Library of Parliament is already here. I was recently in Paris at a conference and she had prepared research work for me on the topics to be discussed. It was an international conference organized by the United Nations and the World Bank. The documents she had prepared for me were of high quality and a number of people at the conference asked me for copies. I am very pleased that Ms. Hudon will be our researcher.
The Chair: Is point 7 adopted?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. I ask that our analyst join our committee. So, Marie-Ève, the committee is very happy to have you.
Moving on to point 8, "authority to commit funds and certify accounts":
That, pursuant to section 7, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority to commit funds be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee;
That, pursuant to section 8, chapter 3:06 of the Senate Administrative Rules, authority for certifying accounts payable by the committee be conferred individually on the chair, the deputy chair, and the clerk of the committee; and
That, notwithstanding the foregoing, in cases related to consultants and personnel services, the authority to commit funds and certify accounts be conferred jointly on the chair and deputy chair.
Senator Boisvenu: I move that motion.
The Chair: Do you agree with point 8?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. We are now at point 9, travel:
That the committee empower the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure to designate, as required, one or more members of the committee and/or such staff as may be necessary to travel on assignment on behalf of the committee.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I move that motion. Is that agreeable, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. Point 10, designation of members travelling on committee business:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be authorized to:
1) determine whether any member of the committee is on "official business" for the purposes of paragraph 8(3)(a) of the Senators Attendance Policy, published in the Journals of the Senate on Wednesday, June 3, 1998; and
2) consider any member of the committee to be on "official business" if that member is: (a) attending an event or meeting related to the work of the committee; or (b) making a presentation related to the work of the committee; and
That the subcommittee report at the earliest opportunity any decisions taken with respect to the designation of members of the committee travelling on committee business.
Senator Champagne: I move that motion.
The Chair: Do you agree, honourable senators?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. Point 11, travelling and living expenses of witnesses:
That, pursuant to the Senate guidelines for witness expenses, the committee may reimburse reasonable travelling and living expenses for one witness from any one organization and payment will take place upon application, but that the chair be authorized to approve expenses for a second witness should there be exceptional circumstances.
Senator Mockler: I move that motion.
The Chair: Do you agree with point 11?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. Point 12, Communications:
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to direct communications officer(s) assigned to the committee in the development of communications plans where appropriate and to request the services of the Senate Communications Directorate for the purposes of their development and implementation; and
That the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure be empowered to allow such coverage at its discretion.
Senator Tardif: I move that motion.
The Chair: Do you agree with point 12?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The motion is carried. As to point 13, which deals with the time slot for regular meetings, if I understand correctly, the official time slot we were given is from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. Obviously, we can discuss the regular and suitable hours for our next meetings. During the last session, you held the meetings from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Would the members of the committee like that?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
The Chair: The meetings will be held at 5 p.m., except, if a minister or someone cannot come at 5 p.m., we could make an exception. Is that agreeable?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
Senator Champagne: That is very wise.
The Chair: The motion is carried.
Other business. In a few moments, we will be going in camera. Would you like to discuss the general order of reference in the public meeting? You have received a copy of last session's order of reference.
Senator De Bané: Madam Chair, I move that our policy be that the meetings of the committee be public, unless it is an issue that concerns the staff or any other issue that, following a vote, justifies an in camera meeting. In general, our meetings are public. They are not public if we are dealing with staff management. If there are cases where we would want to be in camera, there should be a vote to authorize it, rather than saying that we can go in camera whenever we want.
In other committees I sit on, we have adopted the principle that the meetings are public, except when there are staff management issues. If there are other cases, we must specifically vote to go in camera.
Senator Champagne: I would like to add one thing. I think that has been done quite regularly. For whatever reason, if the meeting is in camera, we allow our staff members to stay in the room. I just want to be sure that this is correct so that I do not have to ask each time.
The Chair: Senator Champagne, would you be ready to introduce the motion that allows the staff to stay in the room for the entire meeting?
Senator Champagne: Absolutely.
The Chair: That means that the senators' staff would be allowed to stay in the meeting room when the committee sits in camera, unless the members of the committee decide otherwise.
Senator Champagne: Right.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I second the motion.
The Chair: So you are in agreement with that. The motion is carried.
The Chair: Let us go back to the point raised by Senator De Bané. Are you saying that, when we have a public meeting and we go in camera, the committee would have to adopt a motion each time?
Senator De Bané: The meetings are public, but I understand very well that some topics that concern the committee staff do not need to be public. But meetings should be held in camera only under exceptional circumstances and not when we feel like it.
The Chair: Until now — and correct me if I am wrong — in camera meetings have been used for discussing the committee's future work and draft reports. Aside from that, the meetings are always public.
Ms. Labonté: We abide by rule 92(2) of the Rules. So, in general, the meetings are public, but there are a few exceptions like the ones indicated. That is what we did in the past.
Senator De Bané: I do not want to dwell on this too much. But many topics are of interest to the committee; we must have priorities, we must set our agenda from now until June, and we must choose the topics we want to explore.
The Chair: Next week, the members of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure will be meeting to develop the future work of the committee. Next Monday, the meeting will be in camera in order to discuss the future work of the committee. That is what we usually do. Does that answer your question?
Senator De Bané: Obviously, one of the functions of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure is to come up with an agenda.
The Chair: Exactly.
Senator De Bané: The Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure, after all, is a subcommittee that reports to our committee. I think that it is established that the subcommittee meets in camera. The committee's meetings are public. I personally do not see why — especially on a topic like official languages that has to do, after all, with provisions in the Constitution of Canada — the subcommittee would not come and propose such and such a topic to us. Why could that not all be public?
Senator Tardif: At the outset, Senator De Bané, I believe that some of these organization meetings could be handled better in camera because they consist only of suggestions and exchanges. So it would be better to agree among ourselves before we go in public. That is my opinion.
Senator De Bané: Since Senator Tardif is a great authority in this area, I will abide by her comment.
Senator Champagne: I was going to say basically the same thing. When we are meeting to discuss topics that we have given priority to, I do not believe that the general public's interest would be better served just because we are televised. Once we start our work, everything is public, but we should wash our dirty linen in private.
Senator De Bané: I concur with Senator Champagne's comments.
Senator Tardif: Since there are also members of the leadership who are ex officio members, I would like to add that their staff could also be present. Is that how we understand it?
The Chair: Yes. We now have the general order of reference and also the specific orders of reference to discuss. Honourable senators, would you like to go in camera since we will be discussing the future work of the committee?
Senator Champagne: Anyway, we are not being televised.
Ms. Labonté: But we are being recorded right now.
The Chair: Recorded, but not televised. Very well.
So, as to the general order of reference, Senator Champagne, do you have something for us on the subject?
Senator Champagne: My understanding is that we want our orders of reference to be a little more specific. We are asking the Senate to allow us to continue while we want to study such and such a thing.
It is not a bad idea for it to be more specific than that one; but that one does not tell our colleagues where we are headed.
Senator Tardif: I fully support what Senator Champagne has said. I have also been trying to go in that direction for a few years now. For example, the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages has a very general mandate, and so there is no way of knowing which topic is being studied specifically, whether it is the Olympic Games, health or positive measures, and so on. I find that far too general. Communication is difficult. People cannot see the good work the committee does in terms of studies and reports. If we could conduct specific studies, we could better indicate, six months at a time, what will be studied and the order of reference. Besides, a number of committees work that way.
The Chair: That would mean introducing specific orders of reference. We could group them together and submit them to the Senate.
Do senators have any comments?
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Is this a good time to propose a topic for study or is it too early?
The Chair: It is a little too early because the subcommittee is going to meet, put it all together and then the whole thing will be discussed next Monday, Senator Fortin-Duplessis. Is that all right with you?
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: That is all right with me. But I wholeheartedly agree with Senator Tardif and Senator Champagne.
The Chair: Very well.
Senator Mockler: After what I have just heard, could you tell me whether the previous mandate or order of reference, the one we have in front of us, is the continuation of what we started in 2009?
The Chair: No.
Senator Tardif: It is the same thing each year. Every year, we see the same thing, so it does not deal with anything specific in terms of the topics of study for the current parliamentary session.
The Chair: There was some criticism in that regard to the effect that, if the order of reference were more specific, perhaps senators would also much better understand — senators and others — the scope of the work accomplished by the committee.
The clerk told me that we must also have a general order of reference.
Senator Tardif: We can take a look, but we should add in particular and then identify.
Senator Mockler: We should complete.
Senator Champagne: Once the meeting of the subcommittee is over and the guidelines are established, is it your intention, Madam Chair, to present the committee with an order of reference that is a little more specific than that one? And once it is adopted, at the meeting next Monday, you can submit it to the Senate the next day or the day after? I am sorry, I find that a bit muddled, we do not really know where we are going with that.
The Chair: Next week, the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages will look at the future work of the committee, as discussed by the subcommittee. The order of reference will be general in nature, but it will be a lot more specific on the future work. Is that fine?
Hon. Senators: Yes.
Senator Champagne: You understood us well. We must have explained ourselves properly.
The Chair: As always. Thank you. If there is no further business, I will declare this first organization meeting adjourned.
Senator De Bané: May I ask the steering committee what the official name of the committee is?
The Chair: It is the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure. That is its title.
Senator De Bané: I prefer "steering committee."
The Chair: So do I.
Senator De Bané: Could the steering committee suggest two or three major topics so that as members of the committee, we can react and give our opinion?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator De Bané: In the various positions I have held, I have always felt uncomfortable when only one option was proposed.
The Chair: I understand.
Senator De Bané: Give us three or four options so that we can express our opinions. Some people prefer one option only, but I am not one of them.
Senator Champagne: I think that you can trust your steering committee — Madam Chair does have a lot of experience — to come back next week with an order of reference that includes specific topics which you can add to or take up arms against. I think that you can trust your steering committee to come up with solid topics; then we can present the order of reference to the Senate, and once it is adopted, we can start our work.
Senator De Bané: What I mean is that we are obviously not in the realm of absolute truth and it all depends where you sit, so everyone sees things differently. Personally, I am in favour of specific projects to study. That seems to me absolutely appropriate. There are so many topics to be addressed: the Commissioner of Official Languages' report, as an example, shows the extent. Legislative amendments also come to mind.
So, if the committee could suggest a few projects, we would then be able to express our own opinions.
The Chair: I can assure you that you will be receiving a work plan with several topics. The problem with our committee is not the lack of topics, but quite the opposite. I feel that you will be satisfied with what we are going to bring next Monday.
Senator De Bané: Through the years, I have participated in a number of committees and I have encountered situations where the steering committee would propose one topic, and that was that. It was frustrating. But others would come up with four or five different ideas and ask us what we thought. Everyone would contribute and offer their perspective; it seems to me that this is the way to go in the long term.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Senator De Bané. Thank you all and see you next Monday.
(The committee adjourned.)