Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 6 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday, June 14, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 4:45 p.m. to study the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it (topic: the English-Speaking Communities in Quebec).
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: Welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Senator Maria Chaput, from Manitoba, and I am the chair of this committee.
To begin, I ask that members introduce themselves.
[Translation]
Senator Tardif: I am Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
Senator Losier-Cool: I am Senator Losier-Cool from New Brunswick.
Senator De Bané: I am Senator Pierre De Bané from Quebec.
Senator Rivard: My name is Michel Rivard, Senator from Quebec.
Senator Champagne: I am Andrée Champagne, Senator from Quebec.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I am Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis, Senator from Rougemont, in the province of Quebec.
[English]
Senator Seidman: Good evening. I am Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
The Chair: The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages is beginning its study on the English-speaking communities in Quebec. The committee intends to visit a few of these communities in September and today's meeting will help the members prepare for these visits by giving them useful information.
The committee has invited three researchers to discuss the findings of recent research on these communities. I would like to welcome Sylvia Martin-Laforge, Executive Director of the Quebec Community Groups Network; Jack Jedwab, Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies; and Noel Burke, Chairperson, Quebec English-Speaking Communities Research Network.
The committee thanks you for having accepted its invitation to appear. This meeting will take place in the form of a round table. Each of you will be asked to make your presentations, and the members of the committee will then ask you a number of questions.
Ms. Martin-Laforge, you now have the floor.
Sylvia Martin-Laforge, Executive Director, Quebec Community Groups Network: Good afternoon honourable members of the Senate committee.
The Quebec Community Groups Network is a federation of 36 community groups, composed of both regional associations and sector organizations, serving to benefit the English-speaking community of Quebec.
We are pleased to be here with you today. I think the last time we were with you is about a year ago, in March. I know it has been the committee's wish to learn more about the English-speaking minority communities of Quebec. We have been very busy since our last meeting in March.
We are enthusiastic about the chance to meet with you this fall when the committee travels to Quebec to meet our community where we live. We will work with our key stakeholders in education — elementary, secondary and post- secondary — child care and literacy, economic development, employability, arts, culture and heritage to be sure to help you obtain an accurate understanding of the English-speaking community of Quebec. We will highlight our successes and challenges, and address the myths that surround our community. We need to address those myths head on.
You can rest assured that the committee has the full support of the QCGN board and staff to assist in the preparation for this very important visit for us, as you have said it is important to you.
The Quebec Community Groups Network identifies, explores and addresses the strategic issues affecting the development, vitality and sustainability of English-speaking Quebec. It encourages dialogue and collaboration among its member organizations, individuals, community groups, institutions and leaders, with a view to promoting and sharing information, knowledge and building competency.
The ethos of the QCGN is to work in partnership and collaboration with member organizations, like the Community Health and Social Services Network, CHSSN. I know that many senators are interested in health care issues. In Quebec, we have been privileged to receive quite a bit of money from the roadmap in that area. We also have our regional associations, such as the Committee for Anglophone Social Action in Gaspé. One of our member groups, which we invited to come to visit with us today, is the English Language Arts Network, ELAN. Like the rest of us, it works in terms of the vitality of the English-speaking minority.
You will be hearing from Mr. Jedwab about demographics; from Mr. Burke about our place within Quebec, especially as it applies to research and the needs in research. My intent is to provide you with a strategic policy overview of the English-speaking community, fixing especially on community challenges while working within the context of current federal official language architecture. That is probably what you want to hear about.
Our first point is the architecture. The Official Languages Act evolved to ensure national unity by providing Canadian francophones access to and inclusion in the apparatus of the federal government. Policies that flowed from that architecture focused on minority language protection. To use language from Bill S-220, efforts have been geared to prevent ``loss of the language or linguistic assimilation.'' Though this concern is well founded for the francophone minority communities outside the province of Quebec — and some would say in Quebec also, but we are talking about official language minority communities designated under the act — it does not, however, completely resonate with all members of the English-speaking community of Quebec for whom the loss of the English language, or linguistic assimilation, is not the rational concern. We are, however, very concerned with good evidence-based reason about community vitality and sustainability. It is not completely about language; it is about community.
The assumption that our community is vital is based on myth and the assumption that media in our language is widely available, to give you an example. However, content produced in Toronto, London or Los Angeles does not reflect the culture and traditions of our community. It does not resonate with our communities in Abitibi, Magdalen Islands or Megantic. Recent presentations by ELAN to the CRTC have underlined the absence of regional reflection.
Point 2: The English-speaking community is not monolithic. It is not homogeneous and does not have a tradition of thinking of itself as a minority or a collective. The English-speaking community is a community of communities. These communities are defined by ethnicity, country of origin, their members, religion and geography.
You will experience these differences quite vividly when you visit Montreal, Sherbrooke and Quebec City this fall and hear the variations in perspectives represented. This diversity is a huge source of strength for our community, which plays a vital role in the attraction and retention of immigrants to Quebec.
Point 3: By definition, the English-speaking community of Quebec occurs entirely within one province, Quebec. Two challenges go with this: the tendency to be defined and dealt with regionally by the federal government; and the complication of supporting our community, which is an obligation of the Government of Canada, and managing the political relationship between the Government of Canada and Quebec. In matters of shared jurisdiction, or in matters that have been devolved to the province — programs like early child care in Quebec that are managed provincially — the needs of the English-speaking community are largely absent. There are a number of examples, but one that I would cite with some statistics is around the devolution of manpower, going back seven or eight years at least. In one CROP/ CHSSN survey in 2005, only 37 per cent of anglophones were satisfied with English-speaking employment services in the region.
Until quite recently, there has not been the reflex in English-speaking Quebec to develop institutions of civil society so critical to the minority community. We have not felt the need — or we have felt the need too late, one would question — to mobilize and to ask for organizations that advocate on behalf of youth, women, seniors, and jurist organizations. These organizations could develop, but they have not emerged in sustainable form in our community's history.
We believe that the result of all of this, which we would like you to think about, is that it has been difficult for us to participate and be heard on the national stage in terms of an equal voice. We have had difficulty in making an evidence-based case around equitable resources. Our coordinating organizations continually work simultaneously at the regional and federal levels. Unfortunately, we have to say that we do not receive a great deal of provincial political support.
Finally — and we hope that this is the easiest thing to change — we have not had a national constituency to champion our issues.
I gather you would like to ask questions, and then Mr. Jedwab will continue.
The Chair: Questions will be asked at the end. We will continue with the second speaker.
[Translation]
Jack Jedwab, Executive Director, Association for Canadian Studies, as an individual: Thank you for inviting me. I feel honoured to have this opportunity to share my remarks with you.
[English]
I do this to reflect the substantial number of English speakers in Quebec who are able to speak the French language. You can easily follow that evolution if you look back at a level of second-language French knowledge four years ago and how sizeable the percentage of French speakers amongst the English-speaking community is today. I am about to share with you, the relationship between demographics and identity is an important point. There is an important relationship between the two.
The point to be made here is that, as Quebecers and as Canadians, parents of English-language children fully understood the need for them to adopt the French language. They have put the resources in place and have the right attitude for that transition to occur. However, it is fair to argue that many anglophone youth and anglophones more generally often have a feeling of not belonging in the place they call home, whether they are born here or not. That is at the root of many challenges the English-speaking community faces in Quebec, apart from the various issues described by Ms. Martin-Laforge, some of which are not disconnected to that feeling.
I will not reel off the evolution in the number of English speakers, although we can talk about that during the question period. However, I will summarize by saying that basically from 1972 to 2006, there has been an important decline in the number of anglophones in Quebec, owing largely to the outmigration or departure of English speakers from Quebec to other provinces without that being offset by English speakers coming here from other provinces. That departure has happened for a variety of reasons, most of them attributable to political uncertainty. There was also a feeling among some anglophones that better economic chances were present outside of Quebec, so they chose to take advantage of them. The two reasons are not unrelated, though.
The notion of demographics is closely related to the issue of identity and how one defines belonging to community. At the federal level, from the standpoint of the Official Languages Act, you may be aware that anglophones are defined by the first official language spoken, which is a derived variable, in a sense, and not a census question. On the basis of that definition, there are some 900,000 anglophones in Quebec. On the basis of another definition, ``mother tongue,'' the language first learned and still understood, there would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 600,000 anglophones in Quebec, a gap of 300,000 based on your definition. The Quebec government does not have a standard definition but often uses ``mother tongue'' as the basis for defining the number of anglophones.
The 300,000 are largely comprised of first- and second-generation individuals that identify English as their first official language or as the language they will use in the workplace and elsewhere. However, again, there will be some debate around that relationship of demographics to identity and whether they feel they are part of the community or not.
Feeling part of the community is often contingent on a climate that either values being part of the community or devalues it. If you feel there is a devaluing in being part of that community, you will be reluctant to associate yourself with it. That issue needs to be dealt with head on. It is not an issue of discrimination. I want to be careful that, when I elaborate on this subject, I am not talking about the English-speaking community being the object of some kind of collective discrimination, but there is this feeling of attachment or belonging.
Let me try to capture this with a couple of other points. In thinking about the discussion I would be having with you today, it occurred to me that when we talk about the problems the English-speaking community encounters in Quebec with media or other opinion leaders, often we are accused of whining. We are characterized as a complaining minority that has a rich body of resources — universities, media and so on — and that we really have nothing to say about our situation. On the other end, if we talk about the things we have achieved or accomplished and our historic contribution to Quebec and to the universities and other institutions that we have succeeded in constructing and making vital, then we are accused of being a spoiled group. We are almost in a no-win situation. My view is that the paradox of being perceived as either complaining or talking about our contribution and then saying we are without problems because we are spoiled creates a challenge for those people who want to make observations about the condition of our diverse community.
As was said at the outset, in terms of the increase in the number of English speakers — notably our youth who speak French — we have achieved something that has been hard to identify over the space of 30 years. Few communities around the globe have gone from one third being able to speak French as a second language to 75 or 85 per cent being able to do so. Despite that contribution, which is rarely recognized here, many people still have that feeling of not being part of society.
That feeling of not being included breaks out two ways. When some analysts look at it from a Quebec perspective, they argue that this feeling exists because anglophones are not making an effort to strongly identify. On the other end, others argue that Quebec is not doing enough to make anglophones feel as though they are part of the society. We are in a no-win situation when we lay out the case around the condition of English speakers in Quebec and how they feel about the society they call home.
In short, this is an issue we need to better understand and appreciate how it translates into our life in Quebec from an economic standpoint, an education standpoint, a culture standpoint and from the standpoint of how we are represented in federal and provincial institutions within Quebec to the extent that we are in a position to have any impact.
As well, there must be a dialogue across Quebec among English speakers and those who are not primarily English speakers. That does not get a lot of attention when we talk about the need for reconciliation, both within Quebec and, for that matter, outside of Quebec, with respect to relationships between official-language minorities or majority populations that are not part of the official-language minority.
I invite you to take a close look at the extent to which English speakers are represented in the provincial institutions of Quebec. I suspect you will not be surprised to learn that the presence of English speakers in Quebec's decision- making process, through its civil service and its broader decision-making bodies, is extremely low. Even in federal institutions within Quebec, I venture to say that you will find something similar.
One must ask: Why is that the case? There is a perception that in order to make progress in Quebec politically, one must recognize and strongly enhance the French element of the society. One needs to connect with that element. That would seem to be a logical conclusion.
It is obvious that we need to underpin, recognize and acknowledge, for the sake of national cohesion, the French fact in Quebec and outside of Quebec. However, we should not do that in a way that undercuts or limits the important presence of its English-speaking community, which we must recognize as a historic founding population within this country.
I will leave it there and wait for questions. I am sorry that I am more theoretical than demographic. However, I am in a position to answer the numbers questions. In my opening remarks, I wanted to develop the relationship between the numbers and the feeling of belonging — the demographics of identity in this province.
The Chair: Thank you.
Mr. Burke, please proceed.
Noel Burke, Chairperson, Quebec English-speaking Communities Research Network, as an individual: I appreciate the opportunity to address senators this evening. I am the director of the Quebec English-speaking Communities Research Network, which is only two years old. It is preceded by many other activities and organizations within the English- speaking minority community that has done research over many years.
QUESCREN was founded to enhance community viability and sustainability. Its role, although funded to a small level, is to encourage and nurture research with regard to the English-speaking community of Quebec with an interest toward providing and affirming the identity of that community and its participants, as well as forming opinions and positions that need to be examined and taken with respect to the English-speaking community for the future.
My personal experience has been in the education sector, so I will use that as an example and pose a number of questions about a growing concern over the erosion of the culture of the English-speaking community in Quebec. Ms. Martin-Laforge referred earlier to the issue as being one more of culture than of language. Mr. Jedwab referred to a 75 per cent rate of bilingualism. I have often said that in terms of the Official Languages Act over the past 40 years, we have become the biggest success story. The question remains: At what cost?
Pushing language as an issue in Quebec for the English-speaking minority through legislation, curriculum and communications has disguised the subtle erosion of what was a distinct culture. Let us look at some of the developments in the education sector. I want to talk more about the successes before I talk about the challenges. We graduate the highest number of bilingual students in the province. Mr. Jedwab referred to that statistic earlier. Anglophones who choose to take matriculation exams in the French mother tongue exams score higher than francophones who write the same exams. About 50 per cent more students graduate from the English-speaking community with a secondary school diploma than those in the French community. The education system has a high level of success and holds a great amount of pride in doing so.
The Quebec education system stands as one of the most advanced education systems in the world, in particular with recent reforms. I have a couple of observations about English schools, though, which are the last uniquely anglophone institutions in the province of Quebec.
Immersion over the past 30 years has overtaken English instruction in all but a few schools in the English system. This occurs at varying levels: Some immersion programs are 35 per cent instruction and some bilingual programs are 50 per cent. Of greater concern, intensive immersion programs are up to about 85 per cent instruction in the French language.
Many schools with 85 per cent immersion programs do not teach English-language arts until Grade 3. French immersion curriculum content is naturally that of the francophone community because the majority of texts used are the same as those used in the francophone sector. The nuance of the textbook problem is such that a Grade 3 French second-language student taking math in an English school uses a French text that is also the Grade 3 French text — the same one used by the Grade 3 mother tongue French student, even though these are actually French second-language students.
A couple of other developments are more recent. Currently, two of the five English-language CEGEPs are approaching a 50 per cent francophone and allophone proportion of students. The largest English CEGEP in the province has surpassed this mark and is approaching 60 per cent francophones and allophones. Most of them choose the option in order to develop proficiency in the English language because they did not have such an opportunity prior to post-secondary education.
I illustrate these not to make political points but to suggest that there is a serious need for research in this area, among others, on the impact of immersion programs on the English-speaking community and to influence, we would hope, policy, curriculum, communication and media around these issues. It is well known to all that the federal government, as well as the Senate, has influence over these issues in Quebec but not the ability to directly intervene.
The point I make this afternoon is that research is a vehicle that can inform opinion and clarify myths and misconceptions but, more importantly, can be used as a lever for policy analysis and re-exploration and regeneration. There is a plea here for influence in terms of the amount of research that is done with respect to the English-speaking community of Quebec. Many of the concerns that have been expressed here and many of the successes of the English- speaking community can be celebrated through extended funding of research in the English-speaking community of Quebec and, to a great extent, comparative studies relating to the studies that have already been done in francophone communities outside of Quebec. QUESCREN works in cooperation with and under the umbrella of the Canadian Institute for Research on Linguistic Minorities at the University of New Brunswick.
That is our concern. Senators might want to look at these issues in the context of research needed to put a foundation to those opinions, issues and concerns. That is the conclusion of my remarks.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would first like to thank our three witnesses for agreeing to appear before our committee. My first question is for Mr. Jedwab.
Mr. Jedwab, I am extremely concerned about health. In 2004, you published a report for the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages called Going Forward: The Evolution of Quebec's English-Speaking Community.
One of your conclusions is about access to health and social services in English. In terms of access to health services, do you think that things are going well for the English-speaking minority right now?
Could you comment on that?
[English]
Mr. Jedwab: There will be a variety of opinions about that issue. In my view, the situation varies across the province. In some parts of the province, access to health care will be better. In Montreal, by and large, I would not describe there being a significant problem with respect to health care access that is based on language that differs for the population on the whole. However, outside of Montreal, again depending on the critical mass of English speakers in any particular area, uneven degrees of service will exist.
Having said that, on that issue — and I suppose there are experts who have more knowledge about the situation in various regions — I do believe the will is there to ensure that such services are extended to English speakers. I say this at the risk of people who will disagree with my point of view, but I have the sense that it is not a question of the absence of will to provide those services. There are places where the critical mass is weaker and where it is more of a challenge to secure such services. I do not believe that is a problem for most of Montreal.
I have heard reports of people who say they are challenged, when they call emergency services, in getting that service in their language. That has not been my experience on the basis of the efforts I have made to test that. That would be more anecdotal. A fairly substantial body of information has been generated, to which you could be referred, which has attempted to document that. The general conclusion is that outside of Montreal, where the critical mass of English speakers is weaker, there are more challenges.
Mr. Burke: I would add that the access to those services and the integration of services is a difficult challenge in the schools, in particular. One of the projects you may want to explore in September is Community Learning Centres, which were established some four years ago through funding from Canada-Québec Entente in relation to official languages. The ambition of those Community Learning Centres was to begin to engage community groups in the school, as the institution, as a hub for access to services. A number of schools have been quite successful with this, while others have not.
The response is mixed, but there is certainly a great opportunity for enriching access to services by anglophones through that network of Community Learning Centres. That may be something senators will want to explore as a viable option for access to services, whether they be health, social services, community services or culture.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: The last census showed that, in the Quebec City region, about 4 per cent of people are either anglophone or allophone. Do you think that that percentage of the population of Quebec City is well served by both provincial and federal government services, whether tax services or other types of services?
Do you ever receive complaints from anglophones or allophones in the Quebec City region?
[English]
Ms. Martin-Laforge: The QCGN is not a body for complaints. We do hear anecdotally that people have difficulty being served or in receiving good service. From a provincial perspective, where a service has been devolved to the province — I mentioned employment services earlier — there have been complaints about, for example, youth trying to find employment through Emploi-Québec. We have an organization called Youth Employment Services that operates out of Montreal. It has a provincial mandate, but it does not have the resources to help in the Gaspé or in the Magdalen Islands for youth to find jobs.
In certain jurisdictions we hear general complaints. Many of the programs that have been devolved from the federal government to the province have no mechanism for evaluation. We have not heard of them. We cannot get the proper numbers to find out what, in fact, the impact of devolution has meant to us in terms of service. One service that I have mentioned is employment.
I will put a marker up for the senators. I noted in my remarks that there was a CHSSN/CROP survey in 2005. There was a survey in 2000, in 2005, and just recently another survey was concluded in 2010. We are hopeful that we will be able to give you some of those results before you come to Quebec so you will see some of the longitudinal work that has been done.
They just completed the survey at the end of March. They are cleaning up, might I say, the data, so it probably will be available for you before you come. That would give you more of an indication about services, because there are many questions in that survey about services, not just about health but other services.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: You are surely aware of Bill C-232, which requires Supreme Court justices to be bilingual and to be able to speak both official languages.
Do you think that it will be a major hassle for the judges from the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal, who are competent, but who are not perfectly bilingual? Will that be a problem?
[English]
Ms. Martin-Laforge: The QCGN has a justice reference committee, which is chaired by the Honourable Pierrette Sevigny. The QCGN sent, on behalf of our community, a letter supporting the appeal for bilingual judges. This was discussed with our justice reference group and did not seem to cause a problem. I do not want to speak for them completely, but it did not seem to cause a problem. I think everyone agreed that for Quebec to go forward and for francophones outside Quebec to go forward to the Supreme Court, bilingual judges were an important element of equity.
[Translation]
Senator Rivard: As you know, the bill states clearly that the judges must be bilingual and there cannot be simultaneous interpretation. Do you not see any problems for future judges of the Superior Court, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court? Do you not see any problems for the English-speaking community, either?
[English]
Ms. Martin-Laforge: As I said, senator, our people are bilingual, so from our perspective, the people on my committee did not raise that as a point. I certainly do not feel that I can speak with absolute knowledge about this. I can only say that my committee felt that it was very appropriate for the QCGN to send that letter to the Senate.
Senator Champagne: When my colleague talked about a bill, I thought he was going to talk about Bill 103 in Quebec, which came out around June 2, trying to put an end or diminish the effects of what we call les écoles passerelles. I am still trying to establish in my mind whether it will be better with this new bill or not.
Mr. Jedwab, you said that 75 to 80 per cent of students are now bilingual.
Mr. Burke, you said that in the most popular English-speaking CEGEP more than 50 per cent of the people are either francophones or allophones.
In the same study that my colleague was referring to, Mr. Jedwab, you say that ``knowledge of both English and French is considered to be central to the economic advancement of Quebec anglophones.'' I am tempted to say that it is considered to be central to the economic advancement of Quebec francophones as well.
When you tell me that 75 or 80 per cent of English students are now bilingual, speak French, I continue to worry about what is being done with the French people, not letting them learn English well enough, early enough. I guess we are all hoping for the best, that all of our young people, our new generation, will be bilingual. How do you feel about that? Will that be a help in your communities?
Mr. Jedwab: Is the question about Bill 103 or about bilingualism more broadly? I am not clear.
Senator Champagne: I am interested in the potential effect that Bill 103 would have on reducing bilingualism in francophones, or allophones originally.
Mr. Jedwab: I think I talked about this in the report and in subsequent reports I have done for the commission or for the Department of Canadian Heritage. If you look at the statistics, it is interesting that francophones tend to learn the English language when they get into the workplace, and do so more often where there is a concentration of English speakers, be that in Montreal or the Eastern Townships. On some level, they also acquire the English language in the Quebec City region as well.
As you pointed out, English speakers learn the language more in the school system and then continue to use that language as they hit the workplace.
You are seeing, nonetheless, something which I find interesting. A relatively good percentage of francophones do acquire the English language in their late teens, early 20s and, thereafter, when they hit the workplace, but again it is uneven. In some parts of Quebec, outside of Montreal in particular, you will see that unevenness where there are significant shares of francophones who do not acquire the English language because they do not have the exposure or opportunity to use it in the place in which they reside.
To follow up on what Mr. Burke said, some CEGEPs, the Champlain College campuses, are de facto English. Lennoxville, Quebec City and the St. Lawrence campuses are de facto English, but the majority of their student body is French. It is actually francophones who have decided that in order to acquire the English language in the absence of contact with the English-speaking population, they have enrolled in CEGEPs in the English language.
In any survey that I have been involved with where I asked francophones if they would like to learn the English language, and they think it is important to learn the English language, they are far more inclined to do so. In contrast, for example, even though most anglophones outside of Quebec will attribute some importance to knowledge of French as a second language, it is not as significant as the importance attributed by francophones in Quebec to know English as a second language. People are taking that route.
Unpacking those attitudes and translating them into policy will be a challenge in Quebec, to the extent that Quebec is legitimately preoccupied with protecting the French language and what that means. Bilingualism in Quebec, interestingly enough, is something that people value but, from a policy standpoint, they will not talk about bilingualism as a value.
In Montreal, they will say that bilingualism creates a risk as opposed to an asset. However, when political leaders from Quebec travel abroad, they will talk about bilingualism as an asset for Montreal and for Quebec, not as a risk for the French population. If there is too much bilingualism, presumably the symmetry is not there, so English could take on too much importance. I am talking about the debate we often see in the Montreal media.
Let me take one step back very quickly. You talked about Bill 103. I will not talk about my position on Bill 103. It is probably similar to what you said. I am actually not sure whether it is good or not, and I will probably get a lot of disagreement from some of my colleagues who are English speakers.
What does worry me systematically — I remember Ms. Martin-Laforge and I had a chat about this — the tenor of the debate about these issues, once we start discussing them in Quebec, is one that can be very stigmatizing for many English speakers. If they are of the view that the English-speaking school system merits support, it is very difficult to make that case and have a healthy debate about these and other issues in Quebec.
The impact that honourable senators can have on that is not clear to me, but that illustrates this earlier issue I raised about the feeling of belonging or inclusion when it comes to these issues. I told Ms. Martin-Laforge when this debate began that it was a lose-lose situation for English speakers. The very fact of having this debate will invite all kinds of rhetorical, political discussion that will again negatively impact on the English-speaking community and again raise this issue of the spoiled, complaining minority that is doing all so well.
Mr. Burke: Bill 103, if I may, senator, does not really change a lot. It closes a door somewhat to maybe 400 to 500 students across the province but, more importantly, it does not change a lot with respect to the context of language legislation. I think your point is well taken.
There is a growing dissatisfaction among the francophone community. I am speaking about parents in the education system with whom I have had many occasions to speak with over the years. They are concerned about the limitations on their children to be able to develop bilingualism and become bilingual by the end of school. You may have heard of programs like Bain Linguistique in which they take all of the minutes of English instruction out of the first four or five years of elementary school in the French sector and then provide intensive instruction in grade 6.
There are efforts, despite the legislation and many interventions on behalf of parents, but they do not interact on the political sphere for some of the same reasons Mr. Jedwab mentioned. It is really frowned upon and stigmatic — Mr. Jedwab used a good term — for people to engage publicly in the language debate. There is a concern about a lack of opportunities, but at the same time, a political cloud hangs over people in terms of having a public discussion.
Senator Champagne: I am still one of the very lucky people. Both my children went to elementary and secondary school in French. My son then went to Dawson and to Ryerson. My daughter, after Jean de Brébeuf, went to Concordia, where you come from, Mr. Burke. They greeted her very well. They both graduated with honours and are fully bilingual, of which I am very proud.
Senator De Bané: There is a topic on which I would like to invite each of you to give me his or her own assessment. We all know that one of the main characteristics of our era is that it is an era of communications. Are you satisfied with the way that the French network of Radio-Canada covers the English-speaking community in Quebec.
CBC/Radio-Canada is on record before the CRTC as stating that except for election campaigns, where they measure very precisely the coverage of all the different voices, they do not have any way of measuring if their coverage fulfills their mandate to have a balanced, diverse point of view.
It all depends, of course, where we sit. As people who have the feel of the English-speaking in Quebec, tell me frankly — be brutally frank — what do you think of the way Radio-Canada covers your community in Quebec?
Ms. Martin-Laforge: Senators, to be able to be brutally frank is why I invited Guy Rodgers, who is behind me, to speak. We could exchange chairs for a couple of minutes and he could be brutally frank with you. I can talk about it, but obviously it is not my area of expertise. However, we did want to talk about regional reflection and CBC and Radio-Canada. Would that be acceptable?
The Chair: Yes.
Senator De Bané: Sure.
Guy Rodgers, Executive Director, English Language Arts Network: Good evening. Thank you for asking that question. I will begin by talking about the national broadcaster. If you do not mind, I will talk a little bit about broadcasting and reflection in general.
ELAN, the English Language Arts Network, has existed for about five years and represents all of the English- speaking artists in Quebec. We try to build bridges and reflect the larger community of arts, culture and heritage.
We have been doing quite a bit of research for presentations to the CRTC over the last couple of years, and that is work that has not been done by our community for at least a decade or 15 years. Of course, when are you not present, when are you not examining the results or questioning the results, you do not get much. By our own lack of vigilance, there has been a decline in the service offered by the national broadcasters.
CBC, the regional English-language broadcaster, has almost no programming of the English-speaking community inside Quebec, partly through budgetary restraints. They had a policy a couple of years ago of not being able to send crews off-island during winter because they did not have winter tires. For the entire winter period there were no crews that even went as far as Longueuil or Laval. We have quite a few communities that are a lot farther away from downtown Montreal than that.
Radio-Canada exists in the same building. In fact, the building belongs to SRC. It does not belong to CBC; they rent space there. It has very little knowledge of or interest in or sense of a mandate to serve, to reflect, to speak up or about the English-speaking community. There was a one-hour documentary done a few years ago that spoke about the arts community, and that was quite a landmark event. It was extremely rare.
The service by both national broadcasters is minimal to non-existent. We do not have, in Quebec, an educational station like TVO. Télé-Québec does not have any English-language production and is not likely ever to have any. We used to have community television in the 1970s and 1980s,.
All TV subscribers pay a small amount toward community broadcasting. Ninety-three per cent of English speakers subscribe through Vidéotron, which has a community channel called VOX. However, Vidéotron bought the English- language cable community TV station about 13 years ago and has not provided any sort of English-language service in that period of time.
In our research with CRTC, we realized that there was that huge gap; the subscribers were paying for community service and were not being served. We have tried to enter into discussions with Vidéotron. They have not returned our phone calls and do not seem to have any sort of a policy of openness or discussion, although they did tell the commissioners of the CRTC that they did not have a policy of exclusion — but they do seem to have a policy of silence.
To summarize, we do not have any reflection by the national broadcaster. When we do, it is almost exclusively the Island of Montreal. There will be a couple of hundred thousand anglophones in the remote regions of Quebec who have no reflection. We do not have educational television and we do not have community television. We have made the case very clearly to the CRTC that we need to have regional reflection for our community within Quebec.
I hope that answers your question.
Senator De Bané: You were very eloquent and comprehensive in giving us this portrait.
I wonder if Mr. Jedwab, Mr. Burke and Ms. Martin-Laforge want to add their personal opinions about how Radio- Canada — and the CBC if you want — covers the English-speaking community of Quebec.
Mr. Jedwab: I do not think they cover the English-speaking community of Quebec that meaningfully at all. Again, I would have to offer this observation on the basis of my personal experience. I am a watcher of Radio-Canada, RDI. I am pretty much a junky of that station with regard to the regular news and some of the other fun things they broadcast.
I also watch the CBC English broadcasts. If we are going to look at Quebec, the audience, at least provincially, is extremely low for the English side of the CBC. The news portion of the market is dominated by CTV, the private broadcaster in Montreal. It is very much dominated by them.
However, that is not your question. Could you repeat what your question is about?
[Translation]
Senator De Bané: Is it accurate to say that, on balance, the English-speaking community does not exist for Radio- Canada and gets no coverage?
Mr. Roger: To a certain extent, yes.
Mr. Jedwab: I would not say that there is no coverage on the English-speaking community. But it is quite rare. When I see something on anglophones, I am very surprised and I wonder what is going on.
That said, I have not measured it based on the percentage of anglophone content because I do not watch Radio- Canada for that reason.
Senator De Bané: Thank you.
[English]
Mr. Burke: I wish to share an anecdote with you. I am Irish by birth. There is a joke that in British television and dramatic productions the bad guy is always the Irishman. I do not watch as much RDI as Mr. Jedwab, but I have seen on occasion, in sitcoms, stereotyping of anglophones that I found disturbing. That might take some exploration.
Mr. Rodgers: We have been in contact with the regional office of CBC about some programming that we would like to plan for the next year or two. All decisions for the regional office are made in Toronto. This summer, there is a bit of local programming. That is quite unusual. This is the first time this has happened in a number of years. We wondered whether this has happened because their licence renewal is coming up in the near future. We do not want to be too cynical about this, but it does seem an odd coincidence.
Senator De Bané: Mr. Burke, you told us about some achievements. You are very proud of them, and rightly so. One of them is that the dropout rate in high school and CEGEP is smaller in English-speaking schools than in French- speaking schools. Did I understand you correctly?
Mr. Burke: That is correct.
Further to that, media coverage at the time indicated that this could be attributed to poverty levels in the francophone community. I was party to informal studies indicating that even English students in the same poverty districts of Montreal where these quotes were being made, particularly Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, still performed better. The rationale that was used publicly for the differences in graduation rates did not hold water either.
Mr. Jedwab: One area we need to be cautious about is the extent to which this problem breaks down on the basis of gender. It is a bigger problem for boys than it is for girls.
Mr. Burke: Absolutely.
Mr. Jedwab: I am mentioning this because I notice in these comparisons that young francophone boys often go on to do trade certificates.
Mr. Burke: Exactly. In my quote, I did say ``secondary diploma.'' There are four types of certification that you can get in secondary schools in Quebec, even as early as secondary three and four — the Attestation of Professional Studies, for example. These certificates are counted in graduation rates. However, they are not taken as an option by the vast majority of anglophones. About 12 per cent of anglophones take vocational education, which is a secondary school diploma.
Mr. Jedwab: Again, the risk is that we will generate conclusions about this and about the economic relationship between the communities that may be misleading.
I was involved in a recent survey which showed that one out of three francophones in Quebec value a university degree and one in two anglophones. Two out of three allophones value a university degree and think it is a key to success. Often the francophones, notably young boys, end up taking up trade certificates. It is probably one of the highest ratios in Canada, and they can be very remunerative. All of you who have done renovations on your home know that getting a good electrician or a plumber is not simple today, or cheap.
Senator De Bané: Last fall, former Premier Jacques Parizeau spoke with great sadness of that fact that in the French-speaking schools in Quebec, the dropout rate was double that of English-speaking schools. He said it was beyond him because we are entering an era of knowledge. He had no concern for those who succeed, as they will have great success, but the huge number of dropouts is very troublesome.
Mr. Jedwab: A province-wide report was elicited by the current government, the Ménard report, which has documented this phenomenon and has generated a number of conclusions aimed at trying to improve that situation for francophones, although a values issue underlies this phenomenon and more attention needs to paid to the values dimension.
The other end of it, which I would invite the senators not to ignore, is that many of these anglophones Mr. Burke is describing, those who do complete high school and go on to university, may see challenges or expectations unfulfilled in the economic domain. It is an issue you may want to explore when you conduct your visit. If you meet with people at employment agencies, you will find a number of anglophones with university degrees that are encountering challenges in finding employment consistent with their level of education. Those people who have lower expectations may be finding employment in the trades, and those with trade certificates may be meeting expectations. Those are issues that I would suggest one not ignore.
Mr. Burke: To conclude that point, the greatest increase in vocational education comes from students who leave CEGEP and realize that there is no employment for them.
Senator Champagne: You say there are many anglophones with university degrees who are not finding the type of jobs that they would aspire to normally. Is the reason the fact that they are not bilingual?
Mr. Jedwab: I think that language is part of it, although there is a high rate of language knowledge amongst English speakers.
I have seen studies suggesting that the capacity to write in the French language on the part of many English- language university graduates is a real challenge. Writing skills are a challenge in general, but in this case that is a real challenge which can create obstacles to gainful employment in particular areas. I have seen a fair bit of reporting recently about this fact. It may create limits to occupational mobility. It is not an easy problem to overcome. That will also be true for francophones who are unable to write in the English language, where those skills may also be required in positions within the province of Quebec if they hope to achieve upward mobility. I have heard anecdotes to that effect.
Functional, full bilingualism can be an obstacle. Anglophones have made considerable progress in terms of their capacity to communicate in that language. There is a very diverse group of anglophones. We have not talked much about the issue of immigration, which falls under Quebec jurisdiction, outside of the humanitarian element. Some immigrants come to Canada under humanitarian considerations. More English-speaking immigrants arrive in Quebec than we would presume. They are directed to French-language institutions to learn the French language. That is a legitimate and valid objective for those immigrants if they want to achieve bilingualism. However, by and large, there is no community connectedness, so it is difficult for the English-speaking community to provide institutional support for them. They end up at employment agencies, such as Youth Employment Services, which I suggest you visit when you travel to Montreal. As they acquire French-language skills, they struggle with their adjustment economically, in many cases, as does our immigration population overall, even though they have strong educational background skills.
Ms. Martin-Laforge: When we look for jobs and talk about professions, networks are important, whether at the secondary level or post-secondary level. When looking for jobs, we always rely on our networks. Young people who attend English schools have certain networks. Immigrants have a greater tendency to attach to the English community but have gone to French-language schools because they must do so. Sometimes there is a disconnect in the networking that can help them find jobs. We know that competency and language skills are important. However, often it comes down to who you know, who is in the network and how you get referrals. For a young allophone or English-speaking person going into the job market, the notion of employment equity has to do with who they know, who they went to school with and who they know in the corporate or business sector. Often, our young English-speaking people say that they have trouble finding jobs. It might be because of their language skills, but it might be because of networks and the whole concept of employment equity: How do you get a job? Who do you know in a corporation? Who are your mentors and champions? Sometimes that is a disconnect for finding a job.
Mr. Jedwab: I did a substantial study for Youth Employment Services about four years ago. In a series of focus groups, I asked many of the people using the agency as the vehicle to find employment what they thought the best route was to securing employment. I gave them five options: family and friends, the Internet, federal employment agencies, provincial employment agencies, or the classified section of the newspaper. The overwhelming response was through family and friends. That is the way in which most people responded to the questionnaire.
When I met with some of these people and spoke to them in more detail on a one-on-one basis, I found that they replicated the network that they possessed. For example, if their uncle was a manager at Wal-Mart, they would get a job at Wal-Mart — not that it is a bad thing to get a job at Wal-Mart. Often, that was the reality. You must understand that when you engage with the English-speaking community, notably in Montreal where the realities are diverse, a significant number of first- and second-generation Quebecers are part of the group. There is an important percentage of visible minorities as well. The English-speaking community of Montreal, although it does not get this type of attention, looks in some ways like the English-speaking community in Toronto in terms of the diversity of the people who identify with it and use its institutions. Yet, the English-speaking community is not perceived as a group that receives or welcomes these immigrants. That is a challenging issue.
Quebec Community Groups Network has put this position forward. It wants to work with the federal government and the Government of Quebec in partnership to help English-speaking immigrant adjust and adapt, knowing full well that they need to learn the French language, as the leadership of the community has demonstrated with respect to its attitude toward youth acquisition of the French language, while ensuring a community connection. The challenge is that often this issue is viewed in zero sum terms. An immigrant who gravitates toward the English-speaking community is viewed as one less French speaker or member of the francophone community in Quebec.
The Chair: I am sorry, sir, but time is flying by. We have only 12 minutes left and I have three senators who wish to ask questions. We will try to keep both questions and answers brief because we need to be finished at seven o'clock.
Senator Tardif: As a francophone woman living in Alberta in a minority situation, I certainly identify with many of the sentiments expressed by you as representatives of the English minority in Quebec. However, I recognize that the situation is quite different. You are a minority within a majority at the national level. I remain a minority at the national level. In my province, it is often difficult to engage in a public debate on that matter.
I was interested in the comments made by Mr. Jedwab with regard to the relationship between numbers and demographic identity. Could you expand on that, in particular regarding the fact that 75 per cent to 80 per cent of anglophone students and the general anglophone population speak French quite well? Why do they feel as if they do not belong, given that they can communicate adequately with their entourage? Could you speak to that issue?
Mr. Jedwab: There are significant differences between the condition of English speakers in Quebec and francophones outside of Quebec. Again, that will be uneven. Anglophones outside of Montreal are more vulnerable in terms of their community, and francophones in New Brunswick are stronger than francophones in other communities outside of Quebec.
I do not feel — and I think that I speak for a lot of anglophones — that the threat for me is the loss of the English language. I do not fear losing my language, which is clearly a great fear for many francophones outside of Quebec. I want to draw that distinction. A feeling of belonging is not only about fearing the threat of language loss. It manifests itself in other ways.
To answer your question briefly, young anglophones who have learned the French language do not feel as though they are reflected in the institutions of the province in a meaningful way, for example in the media, which Senator De Bané talked about. They do not feel they are reflected in what might be described in Quebec as the broad media or in the cultural institutions on the broader level that Mr. Rodgers talked about. They do not feel they are reflected in the decision-making process, in the civil service or in the federal institutions in Quebec. They just do not feel they are reflected.
Like Mr. Burke and Ms. Martin-Laforge, I have had the opportunity to be named to various government bodies. Mr. Burke was an assistant deputy minister in the ministry of education in Quebec. I always found interesting that I could sit around a table of 18 people in a government body, and they would ask me if I could not only convey to them the feelings and views of the English-speaking population of Quebec, but actually do the same for the non- francophones, the 1.4 million allophones in Quebec. I always found it a bit odd, which is symptomatic of a feeling of representation in that I am being asked to represent the views of 1.4 million people, which is a diverse group. For those of us who would be described as being part of this society and moving forward in its institutions, we have all felt that paradox.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: I would first like to thank our three witnesses for participating in our committee.
I have a very quick and specific question about the relationship between English-speaking communities and the Government of Quebec.
Although I am aware that there is no Ministry of La Francophonie in Quebec, could you tell me if there is an agency or a committee in Quebec — to use Mr. Jedwab's words — that deals specifically with the relationship with English- speaking communities?
[English]
Ms. Martin-Laforge: I will attempt to answer that. There is not.
Our relationship with the Government of Quebec is mostly at the individual level, which means that the Government of Quebec has, in its charter, numerous references to English-speaking individuals and not community. One must understand that our relationship to the state is often one of services, so funding to our community will often be tied to the provision of services. Where that becomes problematic is any notion of ``collective'' in that it is hard to get the support of the Government of Quebec. It is counterproductive, one would think, for Quebec to think of the English-speaking community as a community. The support is to the individual.
From the QCGN's perspective, while it is important to have services in terms of health care, any time you start to go too far down the services route, you are getting further and further away from the concept of the vitality of the community.
Mr. Jedwab: There is an advisory board on English-language education; correct, Mr. Burke?
Mr. Burke: Yes. There is also Le Secteur des services à la communauté anglophone within the education ministry. This is a unique service within the Quebec government, but it is restricted to the provision of educational services to the English-speaking community. It is self-regulated and constrained by the legislation with respect to access to education.
The English-speaking citizens of Quebec are skeptical about the provincial government's interest in their well-being as a community, while it does provide services and there are access issues for individuals. As a collective, however, there is quite a bit of skepticism about the government's interest in their welfare as a community. I would describe it as tenuous at best.
Ms. Martin-Laforge: One last structure that senators are probably aware of is La Conférence ministérielle sur la francophonie canadienne. Quebec is on that, but not for the English-speaking communities of Quebec.
The Chair: We will have more discussion on these issues when we visit with your communities in early September.
Senator Seidman: I wish to thank all four of you for your frankness this evening. As I find myself skating between what Mr. Jedwab referred to as ``the whining and the spoiled paradox,'' I do believe you have much more to tell us. I personally know how well you have begun to portray the reality and the myths of the English-language community in Quebec.
As we prepare for our study — and your appearance here today is the first opportunity for that preparation — might you please tell us what specific advice you have to give us as we travel to Montreal, Quebec City, the Eastern Townships and also meet with representatives from the Gaspésie and other regions? Briefly, as we say goodbye this evening and we think about this study and our travel to Quebec in the fall, could you leave us with a few words of specific advice?
Mr. Burke: I am delighted that you will visit both urban and rural areas. This is wise in order to get a holistic picture. As I said in my opening remarks, look beyond the language layer to the need for culture and the starvation that many Quebecers, in both the urban and rural areas, feel around their culture.
If you open the entertainment pages of the The Globe and Mail and the Gazette, you will see the vacuum that exists in terms of English-language culture and access to it. Keep an eye out for the absence of culture and do not focus only on language.
Mr. Jedwab: First, getting back to what you originally said about the paradox of the whining versus being spoiled, I would suggest not getting trapped into that paradox yourselves. When you meet people from the communities, ask them not only about their problems but also about their success stories and what they have achieved. That is a trap we have also encountered, where, when we talk about our achievements, everything is fine. You need to find a balance. We are not just about our problems; we are also about the things we achieve that do not get proper recognition.
I would also suggest — and this may be a bit off the circuit — to the extent that you have any time at all, maybe informally, speak to some of the francophone opinion leaders to get their take on what they think the issues of the community are so that you can situate some of what you will hear in that context. Again, hopefully part of this exercise will be myth-busting.
In terms of the list of people that you will try to meet, it would be valuable to meet young English speakers in some of the places that you visit, who are part of these institutions, especially in the educational institutions.
Ms. Martin-Laforge: My colleagues are so smart that they have taken up all of my suggestions.
In terms of the English-speaking community of Quebec, go beyond the strong sectors that we have and help us show the sectors where we have not done much work, such as the CRTC. There are sectors where we have been very successful, but there are places where, with seniors or women, we do not have strong traditions of putting forward issues for minorities in our community because we do not have the structures. That would also be important.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Martin-Laforge, Mr. Jedwab, Mr. Burke and Mr. Rodgers, for having taken the time to be with us this evening. We look forward to meeting with you again in the fall.
(The committee adjourned.)