Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 11 - Evidence - October 18, 2010
OTTAWA, Monday, October 18, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:08 p.m. to study the application of the Official Languages Act and the regulations and directives made under it (Subject: English-speaking communities in Quebec).
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I see that we have quorum. Welcome to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Maria Chaput, senator for Manitoba and chair of this committee.
To begin, I would invite committee members to introduce themselves, beginning with those sitting to my left.
[English]
Senator Seidman: Good evening, I am Judith Seidman, a senator from Montreal, Quebec.
[Translation]
Senator Losier-Cool: Good evening, my name is Senator Rose-Marie Losier-Cool and I am from New Brunswick.
Senator Tardif: Good evening, I am Senator Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
The Chair: In September 2010, Statistics Canada published a statistical portrait of anglophone communities in Quebec, entitled Portrait of Official Language Minorities in Canada — Anglophones in Quebec.
The analysis is tied directly to the study currently undertaken by the committee and includes some very interesting data and information. Today we welcome representatives from the Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division who will be talking to us about this study.
Ms. Jane Badets, the director of the division, will be making a presentation. She is accompanied by two analysts, Mr. Jean-François Lepage and Ms. Brigitte Chavez. The committee would like to thank you for accepting our invitation to appear today. I would now invite you to make your presentation and the senators will ask you questions later on.
[English]
Jane Badets, Director, Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division, Statistics Canada: I am going to do the presentation both in English and French, and I believe you have been given the presentation, so we will follow along with that.
[Translation]
On behalf of Statistics Canada, I would like to thank you for this invitation. I am accompanied by Brigitte Chavez, analyst at the Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division and co-author of the study entitled Portrait of Official Language Minorities in Canada — Anglophones in Quebec, and Jean-François Lepage, who is also an analyst in the same section.
On September 23, 2010, Statistics Canada published the Portrait of Official Language Minorities in Canada — Anglophones in Quebec. This demo-linguistic portrait of the English-speaking population in Quebec prepared by Jean- Pierre Corbeil, Brigitte Chavez and Daniel Pereira was undertaken with the financial support of Canadian Heritage's Official Languages Secretariat, Human Resources and Social Development Canada and Justice Canada.
This study paints a general statistical portrait of the official languages minority in Quebec based on data taken from the population census and the survey on the vitality of official language minorities in Canada, conducted in 2010.
[English]
The purpose of this portrait is to present a set of characteristics, behaviours and perceptions of the official language minority population, exploiting the analytical opportunities of these two data sources.
Prior to beginning the presentation of the results of this study, it is important to first focus on the definition of language groups that are used in the document. What is the definition of the minority official language in Quebec and how do we define an anglophone?
There is no established definition. For historical reasons, Statistics Canada has generally used the criterion of mother tongue, that is, the first language learned at home in childhood and still understood at the time of the census. This information has been collected in the census in a fairly consistent way for a number of decades.
[Translation]
Other criteria are also used, opening the way for either more inclusive or more restrictive definitions of English- speaking persons. In the statistical portrait of anglophones in Quebec, two criteria are mainly used: mother tongue and first official language spoken.
[English]
Quebec's English mother tongue population was 607,000 persons in 2006 compared to 558,000 persons in 1951. That was an increase of 8.8 per cent. By comparison, the French mother tongue population grew by 77 per cent, while the population with a mother tongue other than English or French grew by 506 per cent.
The English mother tongue population represented 8.2 per cent of the total population of Quebec in 2006 compared to 13.8 per cent in 1951. The migration of anglophones toward other Canadian provinces is the main factor responsible for the small fluctuation of the size of the English mother tongue population.
[Translation]
The criterion of first official language spoken constitutes a more inclusive definition of the anglophone population. It is now being used more and more frequently as the criterion for defining linguistic groups in studies on official language minorities.
The criterion of the first official language spoken is a variable derived from three census questions, that is knowledge of official languages, mother tongue and language spoken most often at home. This criterion allows for the inclusion in the official language groups of persons that do not have English or French as a mother tongue.
With the exception of when referring specifically to anglophones by the mother tongue criterion, in this presentation we use the one of first official language spoken to designate the anglophone or English-speaking population.
[English]
The English first official language spoken population's relative share is 13.4 per cent, or 995,000 persons, when half the population with both French and English as its first official language spoken is included. This is a sizable difference in comparison with the 607,000 who have English as their mother tongue. Such a difference is mainly the result of a significant historical attraction to the English language among immigrants who settled in Quebec.
[Translation]
In the province of Quebec, the geographic distribution of the anglophone population is quite uneven. Three regions of the province account for nearly 92 per cent of the anglophone population, namely Montreal, Outaouais and Estrie. Thus, anglophones in the Montreal census metropolitan area account for 80.5 per cent of Quebec's anglophone population.
[English]
Since 1976, the anglophone population in Quebec has undergone migratory losses to other provinces and territories. The migration of this population from Quebec to other provinces and territories peaked during the five-year period from 1976 to 1981. From 1976 to 2006, 307,000 more anglophones left Quebec than anglophones migrated from other provinces to Quebec. Between 2001 and 2006, the net migration of anglophones in Quebec was still negative, but less than in previous periods.
The change over time in the age structure of the anglophone population of Quebec reflects the aging of the population, and it results from the combined effect of a fertility rate below the replacement level and of a sizable negative net migration benefiting other provinces, especially Ontario.
From 1971 to 2006, the proportion of English-French- and English-other-language exogamous couples among couples with at least one partner with English as a mother tongue increased in Quebec, going from 30 per cent to 59 per cent during the same period.
[Translation]
Because of the strong increase in the proportion of English-French exogamous couples from 1971 to 2006, a drop is observed in the rate of transmission of English to children under 18 years of age born from such couples.
Among persons whose first official language is English, it is English that is most often used in all domains of the private and public spheres.
[English]
Although 80 per cent of persons reported using English almost exclusively at home, it is in the consumption of media that English is most widespread. In that domain, 97 per cent of the English first official language spoken population uses English most often, alone or with another language.
English is equally spoken most often among friends by 87 per cent of anglophones. While nearly 60 per cent of anglophones use English most often in their immediate network, in institutions or in stores, the proportion who does so in the workplace is 53 per cent.
[Translation]
In the 2006 census, 86 per cent of doctors working in Quebec reported being able to conduct a conversation in English, while 51 per cent reported using English at least on a regular basis in their work. For nurses, the proportions were 45 per cent and 37 per cent respectively.
[English]
The survey on the vitality of the official-language minorities results show that the majority of anglophones in Quebec report using English when consulting different health care professionals about whom information was collected in the survey, namely family doctors, nurses and professionals in other places where health care services are provided. However, the proportions vary from one region to another.
Also, consultations of the telephone health line, Info-Santé, professionals take place more often in French; province- wide, only 43 per cent of Quebec anglophones use English with these professionals.
Let us talk about justice, slide 9. While the number of police officers who report using English at work is much higher than the number of anglophone police officers, the interactions of Quebec anglophones with the municipal police and the provincial police are generally in French.
[Translation]
In most regions of the province, the use of English predominates in interactions with lawyers.
French immersion programs have increasingly gained in popularity among Quebec anglophone parents in Quebec since their inception in the 1960s.
[English]
In demanding for better French second language teaching programs, anglophone parents in Quebec have seen to it that their children's level of bilingualism increased substantially. The growth of English-French exogamous unions explains in part the fact that many anglophone parents choose to register their children in a French language school. The survey on the vitality of the official-language minorities results also show that attendance of an English school appears to be a more popular choice at the secondary level.
Work and income is on slide 11. A brief analysis of 2006 data reveals that anglophones in Quebec are proportionally more likely than francophones to work in certain sectors, such as professional, scientific and technical services, administrative and management services, or wholesale trade.
[Translation]
Statistics on the various public administrations — federal, provincial and territorial and local — municipal and regional, also reveal an underrepresentation of anglophones and an overrepresentation of francophones within each of these groups, especially within the provincial public service.
[English]
We are now on slide 12. An analysis of the data on the average employment incomes of males in the labour force reveals that the population with French as the first official language has a higher mean income than anglophone males when controlling for age, education level, region of residence, industry sector and immigration status. The income gap is larger if the criterion used is mother tongue rather than the first official language spoken. For females the gaps are smaller.
[Translation]
Obviously, we have only presented a few highlights from the portrait of official language minorities and anglophones in Quebec.
[English]
The portrait, this publication, presents a range of information on a number of themes and issues that are of interest to official language minorities and anyone interested in the past, present and future of minority official language populations in Canada. Among other things, the portrait shows substantial changes that have characterized the anglophone population, mainly at a demo-linguistic and socio-economic level.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, madam. This portrait is very good work, and I would like to congratulate you. It is very complete.
In general, what are the substantial changes that have happened? What is the big difference that you have seen between 10 or 15 years ago and now? What is the biggest challenge for the anglophones in Quebec, according to what you have in your study?
You can each take a turn, if you wish.
Brigitte Chavez, Analyst, Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division, Statistics Canada: We have seen major changes in terms of the composition of the population — in terms of the origins of the people who are part of the anglophone community. That has had an impact at various levels in terms of education, income and other areas as well.
The Chair: What about the young anglophones in Quebec? What is their biggest challenge now?
Ms. Chavez: We have not studied young people as a particular group in this study. We have not focused on them in the same way. Our study presents a portrait of the anglophone population, so we are not looking at this population from the same angle that you are looking at.
The Chair: Yes.
Ms. Chavez: As far as I can remember, we have not done so, apart from the fact that young people would want to leave the province, just like any other group. That is how they answer in the survey. However, apart from that, there is nothing else that we have, unless you know about something I cannot remember.
[Translation]
The Chair: That was not the objective of this study, right?
Jean François Lepage, Analyst, Social and Aboriginal Statistics Division, Statistics Canada: Exactly. We can also observe, looking at the age pyramid, that the anglophone population is aging. This phenomenon is also seen in other groups.
[English]
Senator Seidman: I would like to, if I may, go through your slides a bit and try to clarify some of the important data that you have presented.
If I could go to slide 3 — mother tongue and first official language spoken — you said the definition is critical, how one defines anglophones.
You say there is either mother tongue or first official language spoken. I would like to know, if we look at federal, provincial and municipal offices and departments who must use Statistics Canada data, what do they tend to use? In other words, I see you have used "first official language spoken" to put your data together, but what do other offices tend to use?
Ms. Badets: When we look at the Official Languages Act and its regulations, in there it stipulates the first official language spoken. There are the three questions: knowledge of official languages; mother tongue; and language spoken at home. That is what is required for the administration of the official languages regulations and the act.
Though I am sure others from time to time do use "mother tongue" and it is probably used by researchers as well, for the federal level what is being used is "first official language spoken."
Senator Seidman: Do you know what is used at provincial and municipal levels in Quebec?
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: I do not know officially. I have often heard it said that in Quebec, the language spoken most often in the home is given a great deal of importance. The definitions used by Statistics Canada were selected based on an analysis and they are consistent with those found in federal legislation. However, other individuals, administrators from other levels and university researchers are free to use a definition of their choosing of a given linguistic group. We are using these definitions because they are the ones most commonly used to determine the population groups by the people we work with.
[English]
Senator Seidman: I understand that, but my understanding is that the provincial government, for example, in determining how to provide services to the anglophones in Quebec, uses "mother tongue" as their definition and that determines the number of anglophones in Quebec.
We see that, according to you, if you use "first official language spoken," we have 900,000 so-called anglophones in Quebec. However, if you use "mother tongue," I believe you said the number was 600,000, so there is a marked difference between those two figures.
Ms. Chavez: That is why we presented the data by "mother tongue" and the "first official language spoken." We do have a section where we present the data about the language used in the private and public spheres. In that section, you will see that even within the first official language spoken population, we have separated the group that is bilingual from the main group, because they do use languages in a different manner than what the first official language spoken English only do.
There are different ways that these groups use languages. However, as far as our work goes, it is hard to answer a question about what other governments do because that is not part of our work. We present the data. In our report, we have not gone into those questions.
In terms of that question, I do not think we can answer further, unless my colleagues have something else to say about that.
Senator Seidman: That is fine. You do not get requests, for example, from provincial or municipal governments across the country for data, is that correct?
Ms. Chavez: We might get requests, but I think those are things that are not public, as far as I know.
Ms. Badets: We ask a fair number of questions on the census. It is probably one census in the world where we ask a lot of language questions; I think there are six. They are the building blocks. It is really up to the needs or how others need to use the data in terms of what they choose, but we do present it the best we can. Of course, we may get requests for others. We just do not know those requests offhand.
Senator Seidman: So the various federal agencies use your data. That is what you are saying; you get requests from the various federal agencies and they use your data, correct?
Ms. Badets: We collect the information specifically for the Official Languages Act and its regulations — that is the first official language spoken in particular, but others may use other wordings.
[Translation]
Mr Lepage: If I may, as analysts, it is also our job to advise people who come to see us in order to obtain data. Each linguistic variable also has certain advantages and certain disadvantages, depending on what we want to study.
For instance, if we wish to study linguistic diversity, the first official language spoken is not a good variable because it groups people according to the first official language, namely French or English. However, if we wish to look at linguistic integration, this variable is much more pertinent. In many cases, the nature of the analysis requests that we receive determine the variables that we will use.
[English]
Senator Seidman: If I might ask you another question about slide 10, education. You say at the elementary level that 48 per cent of anglophone children are enrolled in a French school. Then you say 32 per cent of anglophone children are registered in a French immersion program in an English school. Do we then add those two numbers together to see how many anglophone children are actually in a French program?
In other words, does the 48 per cent plus the 32 per cent equal anglophone children registered either in a French school or a French immersion program? That would make 80 per cent of anglophone children in Quebec that go to French school in some form or other. Is that correct?
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: It is indeed the percentage of children who are exposed to French on an ongoing basis throughout their schooling.
[English]
Senator Seidman: Right. I just want to be clear that 48 per cent of anglophone children are enrolled in a French school, meaning in the French school system. Therefore, almost 50 per cent of anglophone children are in the French school system, and 32 per cent of anglophone children are in a French immersion program. However, that would be in an English school, meaning in the English school system because now in Quebec, of course, we have school boards defined by language, English and French.
Thank you. That is very helpful. That is fine for now. I will wait for the next round.
Senator Fraser: How are you defining "anglophone children" for the purposes of that slide? Is it children with at least one first official language spoken English parent?
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: This was, in fact, taken from the Survey on the Vitality of Official Language Minorities and the sample includes children who had at least one parent. . .
Senator Fraser: At least one parent whose first official language spoken —
Mr. Lepage: It is not even that. The sample was much broader to ensure that we had people who had contacts with the minority language, whether it be French outside of Quebec or English in Quebec. Within that sample, for the purposes of our analysis, it was at least one of two parents who has the first official language spoken.
[English]
Senator De Bané: In a few words, would you please tell me the difference between "mother tongue" and "the first language spoken"?
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: The mother tongue is the first language learned in childhood and still understood.
Senator De Bané: The mother tongue is the first language learned.
Mr. Lepage: In childhood.
Senator De Bané: First language learned in childhood.
Mr. Lepage: And still understood.
Senator De Bané: And still understood.
Mr. Lepage: This is a question that has been taken directly from the census.
Senator De Bané: I see.
Mr. Lepage: The census asks this question. The first official language spoken is a bit more complex. This is a derived variable, it is not a census question. First of all, we take a look at the knowledge of official languages, which is a census question, which enables us to classify people based on anglophone or francophone groups.
There are some people who know both languages, or neither one. For this group, we look at the mother tongue; if they have either French or English as their mother tongue, they are put into one of these two groups. For the same group, we look at which language is spoken most often at home, and, once again, depending on whether these people use French or English the most often at home, we put them into one or the other of these two groups.
The result is that 97 per cent of the population has been put into the French or English group. The two categories, English and French, are residual categories where 1.1 per cent of the population is "English-French," and 1,6 per cent is "neither English nor French," according to the 2006 census data.
This is really a derived variable and is therefore more complex. It is not a question that people are asked directly. This is a method that was suggested by the Treasury Board; the Treasury Board selected this method from a list of suggestions made by Statistics Canada in 1989.
Senator De Bané: Tell me if I have understood correctly: mother tongue is the first language in childhood and the one that is "still understood." I understand that. If a child has learned a language, from the beginning, during the first two, three or four years of his or her life, and this language was subsequently forgotten, is that data that is of interest to us?
Mr. Lepage: The use of the "still understood" condition is a feature that goes back to the time of the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism. Indeed, we may have started using this condition even earlier than that, but it was at this time that the definition began to crystallize.
Senator De Bané: Let us suppose that the child forgot the mother tongue because he or she was sent to boarding school. Is that the other concept that we look at with respect to the official language?
Mr. Lepage: If, in fact, the individual has forgotten the first language learned, the census asks for the second language learned, but which is still understood.
Senator De Bané: I see.
Mr. Lepage: Forgetting the mother tongue is a phenomenon. We have tried to measure this phenomenon, it is very marginal, but does happen. We are not really able to capture this measurement through the census data because of the way the question is asked.
Senator De Bané: Unfortunately, I forgot my mother tongue because I was a boarder in a French school for about 10 years, and I never had the opportunity to use it. So I learned French.
That being said, let us turn to slide 11.
[English]
The second item on slide 11 reads as follows:
There is an under-representation of anglophones within public administrations, especially within the provincial public service.
Are you able to tell me what this under-representation is? Can you give us some hard statistics; what is the percentage of anglophones in the federal public service in Quebec? What is their representation in the provincial public service?
I would like more details than what this sentence gives. I am referring to the second item on slide 11.
Ms. Chavez: For the whole of Quebec, we have anglophone workers in all industry sectors. They represent 13.3 per cent —
Senator De Bané: — of the workforce in that province. Okay.
Ms. Chavez: In the public service as a whole —
Senator De Bané: Which one?
Ms. Chavez: In the public service as a whole — all levels — they represent 7 per cent.
Senator De Bané: That includes schools, hospitals, municipal, provincial and federal, does it not?
Ms. Chavez: Yes. The weight of francophones in the overall workforce is 86.5 per cent, and in the public service it is 93 per cent.
I have more detailed statistics on this. For example, in the Quebec public service, anglophones comprise 2.8 per cent.
Senator De Bané: Anglophones are 2.8 per cent of the provincial public service?
Ms. Chavez: Yes, 2.8 per cent of the workforce, while francophones constitute 97.2 per cent.
Senator De Bané: Francophones are 97.2 per cent.
Ms. Chavez: Yes. In the federal public service, we see 11.7 per cent of anglophones, while we see 88.2 per cent francophones. If we look at the local, municipal and regional public administrations, anglophones represent 7 per cent of all workers and francophones 93 per cent.
Senator De Bané: Would you be kind enough to send us all those data? I see several pages where we say this or that.
Ms. Chavez: I can pinpoint the section where we have this information. It is all detailed in our report.
Senator De Bané: Good.
Ms. Chavez: I will get to the page in a moment. I will have to let you know about the page. We have page 83 and it has a table with all those percentages. Section 4.6 would be the section with all that information, on page 80. In the French document, it is page 80.
The English document is on the same page: It starts on page 80 as well, and is under section 4.6, Employment and Income Characteristics.
Senator De Bané: You say that the median income of anglophones is smaller than that of French-speaking Quebecers. Also, you say there is a larger income disparity within the English-speaking community. Can you tell us more about those two conclusions?
Ms. Chavez: Our study focused on two things, on the median and mean income, but we did a multiple regression on the mean income of anglophones and francophones. What we came up with is that the mean income of anglophones is lower than the mean income of francophones after we control for age, education level, region of residence, industry sector and immigrant status.
Senator De Bané: How long has that situation been in existence in Quebec, where median income for anglophones is lower than that for francophones?
Ms. Chavez: For our study, we concentrated on the year 2006. I cannot tell you what the changes were throughout time when they occurred, but the data that we have studied was for 2006. We have a report that presents various aspects — we have covered education, revenue. We have not covered everything thoroughly, so it is a basic portrait.
Senator De Bané: No, you have not covered everything thoroughly. During our sessions in Quebec with the English- speaking community, the thing that struck me is when they told us, in Montreal particularly, that the English language is not threatened, but the English-speaking community is. Not the language by itself, we live in North America, et cetera, but the community is getting older and weaker. That impressed me that when they looked at the big picture, they said that as a community, we are getting weaker than we were.
For instance, the artist told us that for the rest of Canada, the artistic community is the one from the United States — Hollywood, et cetera. In Quebec, they look to the French-speaking artists. Therefore, from both sides, whether on the English side or on the French side, we are being ignored, and we are 8,000 artists in the Montreal area. As you said, you could not cover everything; there are many things that you have not covered.
Your conclusion is that this portrait presents a range of information, but it does not cover the whole situation.
Ms. Chavez: In terms of revenue, we have covered way more than most researchers have in terms of anglophones because we looked at both by mother tongue and also by first official language spoken. Very often, some researchers tend to look only at mother tongue or first official language spoken. We looked at both median and mean income, and some researchers, again, tend to go on one side or the other. We have covered much more than what has been done in the past.
Not only that, we have been able to also run multiple regressions on this data. When I said that we have not covered everything, I meant overall this portrait is not meant to be — and it is stated in the introductions — an exhaustive study of the anglophone population because that report could be 1,000 pages long or more.
Senator De Bané: You say that the median income of anglophones is lower than the median income of French- speaking Quebecers. On the other hand, you say the percentage of English-speaking Quebecers who go to university is substantially higher than French-speaking Quebecers. Why is their income lower when they have more education than the French?
Ms. Chavez: That has to do with the fact that when we look at the composition of the English-speaking group, part of it is a group that is an immigrant group. Studies have shown that, although immigrants have a certain or higher level of education than other groups, they still do not get access to jobs that are high paying or jobs that pertain to their domain of expertise. That is part of the explanation.
Senator De Bané: Wait a minute. For an immigrant who comes to Canada with a Ph.D from his country but he is not licensed to practice the profession here, then I understand that as a taxi driver, he does not earn what a PhD might. However, the English-speaking Quebecer who has been here for 300 years is not in that position. He has graduated from McGill or Concordia or Dawson College, et cetera.
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: Another factor came into play, historically, for the anglophone community of Quebec, and that is that education increases mobility. That has had a huge impact on the anglophone community in Quebec; a little less so between 2001 and 2006, but in the past, there has been a tremendous amount of interprovincial migration amongst Quebec's anglophones.
Senator De Bané: Thank you very much.
Senator Losier-Cool: I have a supplementary question to follow up on Senator De Bané's questions. When this report was published in September 2010, do you know how the anglophones in Quebec or groups in Quebec reacted?
Mr. Lepage: There was a certain amount of media coverage, primarily in Quebec. Also, various groups asked us to present the report to them, as we are doing here today. There was also some solicitation.
Senator Losier-Cool: And was your report met with surprise by the media or by someone else? And do you believe that this report will change certain myths, as Senator De Bané alluded to, with respect to the anglophone community in Quebec?
[English]
Ms. Badets: The report is there for people to look at, analyze and react to. The role of Statistics Canada is to present the information. It is for others to determine how they want to use the information.
Senator Seidman: I want to go back to what Senator De Bané was asking you about, which is the educational level of anglophones. In slide 10, it says 25 per cent of anglophones have a university degree or diploma, but they have a lower income.
You tried to explain; I think, Mr. Lepage, you said the university degree makes them more mobile. However, it says 25 per cent of anglophones have a university degree, so when you provide statistics, you are providing statistics of anglophones currently living in Quebec, not anglophones who have left Quebec.
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: This does not figure in the report, but we do know that those anglophones born in Quebec who have migrated have higher education levels. I cannot provide you with the exact figures, but according to other analyses on interprovincial migration, we know that the people who migrate, regardless of language, are usually better educated than those who do not. That being said, since the anglophone community in Quebec is, generally speaking, proportionally better educated, has more university degrees, this makes this population more likely to migrate even though, obviously, the observations that we are making are based on the people who are still there.
[English]
Senator Seidman: I understand that. I do not want to belabour, except it still does not explain away the issue. The issue is that 25 per cent of anglophones currently living in Quebec, based on your last study or census, have a university degree or diploma, yet they have a lower income level than francophones.
Ms. Chavez: Like I said earlier, we have to understand that those statistics are based on first official language spoken, English and French. Within the English as the first official language spoken population, an increasing number of immigrants are part of that population. As we said earlier in the literature, all the studies tend to show that, although an immigrant might have for example a PhD, compared to someone from another group, he will not necessarily be able to hold a position that takes into account his level of education.
If someone wants to come and live in Canada as an independent worker, for example, he or she needs to show a certain level of education to be admitted into Canada, if we look at the point system. Generally speaking, the immigrant population has a higher level of education than the general population.
Also, Mr. Lepage was speaking about the out-migration of people who have a greater mobility because of their educational attainments. That can help us better understand why there has been a decrease in the gap between anglophones and francophones in terms of their revenue across time. In terms of the out-migration of anglophones, Mr. Lepage was referring to it having had an impact across time in terms of a narrowing of the revenue gap.
Senator Seidman: I still do not understand.
I would now like to ask you if you could break down first official language spoken anglophones. You talk about immigrants, but I do not know what that means. Do you have numbers that tell me how many of your first official language spoken people are Quebec-born, how many are Canadian-born, and how many are so-called immigrants? The latter are being counted as first official language spoken in English, I presume. Therefore, what countries are they from? Do you have something that breaks this down, so I can try to understand it?
Ms. Chavez: There is a section in our report that deals with migration and immigrants. That is a good place to start. Your question is very specific. Section 3.7 deals with place of birth and international immigration, if you look starting at page 46. We have on page 47 table 3.71, which breaks down the information by mother tongue and first official language spoken. We see the English-speaking people, for example, for first official language spoken — out of the total number — how many were born inside and outside of the province, in another province in Canada or born outside Canada.
If you look at that section, you will get a better idea of that. It also touches on the theme of interprovincial migration.
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: I would like to add something to clarify the thrust of our answers. They are, in fact, potential explanations. This is a complex situation that we did not examine in depth. That type of analysis is quite detailed, because the phenomenon is complex and there are likely many causes. We raised the ones that we felt explained the phenomenon, but it is all probably interrelated. The situation is rather complex, and the purpose of the report was not to break all of that down, but it would certainly be very interesting to do that analysis in greater detail.
[English]
Ms. Badets: I want to reiterate that income is a fairly complex subject and I think they have just touched on it in the portrait. There are very good questions and things that need to be looked at more, but which certainly could be in the data.
Senator Seidman: I appreciate that, and I certainly understand the complexity of data such as this. However, I also know that a lot of agencies and various groups take this data very seriously and do not understand the complexity. They then make major judgments based on data like this.
It is critically important. I think you have made the point — and you must continue to make the point — that it is data. Data can be used to support two sides of the same argument and is very complicated. Yes, I appreciate that very much.
Senator Fraser: Our witnesses referred to a narrowing of the gap between francophones and anglophones. However, in the past 40 years, we have seen a reversal of the gap. When we were all in university or the equivalent, it was true that francophones earned less than anglophones. Even bilingual francophones at that time earned less than unilingual anglophones as far as the data we had at the time was able to determine.
It has not been a narrowing; it has been a complete change we have witnessed.
I take your point about highly educated immigrants not being employed at their proper earning level. Might I suggest that one of these fine days when you have nothing else to do, you might also examine the correlation between this and the finding you reported earlier in this deck regarding the under-representation of anglophones in the public service, particularly in the provincial public service. The pay scales in the public service tend to be much higher than in, say, wholesale trade, which is apparently one of the areas where anglophones are concentrated. I suspect there is something to be winkled out from the data.
In the meantime, Senator Losier-Cool was asking about public reaction and there was public reaction. I think anglophones tended to say, "There, you see? We told you." Some francophones said it was interesting, and others said, particularly in relation to the income data, that it cannot be true; there must be good reasons why it is not true.
One of the elements that some people picked upon was the question of mean versus median. This slide refers to the mean income numbers. The income gaps that you show here are in dollars, but we do not know what they would be in percentage terms as a percentage of the mean income. First, how much less are anglophones earning than francophones, all other things being equal? That would be for both mother tongue and first official language spoken.
Second, do the median numbers show a comparable pattern?
Ms. Chavez: We did look at the median and we had found that the median income for anglophones was lower than the francophones. We did look at both of them.
Senator Fraser: What about the mean income? What would be the total for Quebec, correcting for controlling for all the variables that you have mentioned here?
Ms. Chavez: If you go to page 87 —
Senator Fraser: I am sorry; I do not have your report. Your report is wonderful. I gave you a plug in the Senate the other day because it is such a wonderful report, but I do not have it with me. Page 87, okay; my colleague has kindly helped me out here.
For males, the mean would be $38,509, is that right?
Ms. Chavez: We summarized what would happen when controlling for age, education level, region of residence, industry sector and immigrant status. We looked at the income difference if we use the mother tongue criterion, and we saw that there was a difference of $2,700. When we looked at the first official language spoken — and this is for males — it was $1,900. For females, the gaps are smaller. It was $700 —
Senator Fraser: I am just asking what percentage that is.
Ms. Chavez: We did not calculate in terms of percentage.
Senator Fraser: Could you do that for us, please, and let us know? It would be very helpful for us.
Ms. Chavez: Yes, of course. We can do that for you and send you that information.
Senator Fraser: Thank you very much. I have another area I wanted to ask about, chair, but I will go for a second round, unless you want me to do it now.
The Chair: Yes, do it now.
Senator Fraser: You are very kind and very indulgent.
On slide 6 — now I am really deep into the thickets of percentages here and I do not know how to go — I was trying to figure out was that total percentage of children of anglophones, that is with at least one anglophone parent, who are not having English transmitted to them. I am sure it is too easy just to take 34 per cent of 46 per cent. That would not work, would it? Do we know what the total percentage of children with at least one English-speaking parent who are not having English transmitted to them would be? Do you see what I am trying to drive at here?
Ms. Chavez: Are you talking about exogamous couples or —
Senator Fraser: I am talking about all children. You have given us nice numbers on exogamous couples, which are staggering, may I say — the notion that 46 per cent of marriages of anglophones in Quebec are exogamous French- English, forget the other languages. That is really something. I will go to your report about francophones in Quebec to find out how that compares.
However, I am trying to figure out how many English children are losing their language as a proportion of the total.
Ms. Chavez: The language of the mother or the father?
Senator Fraser: Either.
Ms. Chavez: Either, as long as one —
Senator Fraser: We earlier established, I think, that anglophone children, for the purposes of this work, constituted the children of couples where at least one parent had English as the first official language spoken.
[Translation]
Mr. Lepage: I would like to point out that when we look at linguistic transmission that way, we look at the mother tongue transmitted to the child.
It does not necessarily mean that the language is not transmitted to the child later on, or that the English language is not also spoken at home on a regular basis and is transmitted to the child.
Senator Fraser: So what do you mean when you say that the English language is not transmitted to the children?
Mr. Lepage: It is not transmitted as their mother tongue. In other words, it is not the first language taught to the child.
Senator Fraser: Yes, but that does not mean that the children do not speak any English at all.
Mr. Lepage: That is correct.
Senator Fraser: I know some like that myself. As we can only go by what we know personally, I would like to know what proportion of children normally would have learned English but do not. Is that available somewhere?
Ms. Chavez: Still in terms of mother tongue?
Senator Fraser: If that is what you have. The more data we have, the better. If what you have is information on mother tongue, that is fine.
Mr. Lepage: I do not remember if those specific figures are contained in the report.
Senator Fraser: I do not think so.
Mr. Lepage: If that is not the case, we can use mother tongue, but also language spoken at home. We can get a more comprehensive answer.
Senator Fraser: At any rate, you can see where I would have appreciated a better understanding of what is happening.
[English]
Ms. Badets: That is possible. It is complex. There is mother tongue and then there is home language. Do they speak it most often at home or regularly? There are a number of ways, because of the number of questions, you can slice and dice it. We will do what we can do — maybe show you in different ways.
Senator Fraser: Thank you very much. It is not that I set out to give you more work or complain about the wonderful work you have done.
Ms. Badets: It is just very complex.
Senator Fraser: The fact that you have done all this wonderful work makes us want more. Thank you very much.
[Translation]
The Chair: I would like to add a question to those of Senator Fraser. When we talk about the transmission of English — because we are still talking about anglophone communities in Quebec, are we not — so when we talk about the transmission of English to children, what you have given us here is the transmission in terms of mother tongue. Is it possible to have the transmission in terms of mother tongue, then figures with respect to the language spoken at home, and finally, figures on the official language spoken, which would be English in this case?
Do you have those three types of data so that we can see the difference?
Mr. Lepage: That census data is available. We can also provide specific figures on knowledge of official languages, in other words the ability to conduct a conversation in English.
The Chair: Can you provide that data to our committee?
Mr. Lepage: Yes.
Senator Tardif: I want to thank you for this statistical picture of the official languages minority in Quebec, which is evidently taken from the 2006 Census.
For several weeks now, we have been having a big debate on the 2011 census. Today I think that we have seen the importance of the definitions and criteria used to define the official languages minority. The government, agencies and organizations rely on that to provide services and other information of a demographic, sociological and sociolinguistic nature.
I would like to know what questions dealing with official languages were on the mandatory questionnaire which will not be on the short form.
Mr. Lepage: The only question that will not be there is the one dealing with language of work.
In other words, the 2011 short-form census will include a question on mother tongue, one of knowledge of official languages, and one on the language spoken at home. With that, we will be able to derive the first official language spoken.
Senator Tardif: So the entire issue of the first official language spoken will be covered by the short form.
Ms. Badets: For the 2011 census, that is correct.
Senator Tardif: What is the impact of not having the language of work, if this question is not included in the questionnaire? For example, today you have presented the issue of use of English in the workforce, in public and in private. If you did not have that information on the mandatory questionnaire, how might it impact our ability to gain a complete understanding of the minority?
[English]
Ms. Badets: We will have in the census the three essential questions to determine both mother tongue and first official language spoken. The national household survey, which will be voluntary, will provide supplemental information. That is where we have the language of work and also another question on knowledge of other non-official languages.
We will not know. This is the first time Statistics Canada will do the national household survey, and we will not know the quality of that information until we collect and evaluate it.
Senator Tardif: Can I follow up on that? Regarding Part VII of the Official Languages Act, I understand that you said you will now have the part on the knowledge of the first official language, which meets the requirements of the Official Languages Act.
I do not know which requirement of the Official Languages Act you were speaking about. Is that Part IV? Do you believe that it addresses the obligations under Part VII of the Official Languages Act, which deals with the promotion and enhancement of the vitality of the official language community?
Ms. Badets: Again, the national household survey will provide that information. I am just not familiar exactly with the different sections of the act. I know where it is required and where it is mentioned in the act and its regulations. The three questions mentioned as being required are those three questions: mother tongue, home language and knowledge of official languages.
Again, the national household survey is a new survey. It will provide information, but we will not know that information and the quality of that information until we collect, evaluate and disseminate it.
Senator Tardif: I want to understand what the impact might be. I do not want to put you in a delicate position about commenting on the decision that was made to eliminate the long-form questionnaire. However, I want to ensure I understand what the impact might be because you have obviously used this data to give us comprehensive information about different communities. Decisions are made based on that information. As Senator Seidman mentioned, statistics are important for really understanding and are the basis for decisions.
Some statistical data, such as language of work, is not there, so you cannot compare it. It is not the same database survey as a census. What will be the result of that lack of information and what impact might that have on our understanding, for example, of the English-language community in Quebec?
Ms. Badets: We just do not know. We have not done this survey before. Until we do it and evaluate the information, we will not know the impact. We will use the survey methods that we have and use for other surveys, but we will not know until we actually do it, collect it and evaluate it, because it is new.
Senator Fraser: I have been trying to figure out the questions that were asked and the questions that will be asked. One small thing I noticed is that, in 2006 on the long-form questionnaire, you basically asked what your mother tongue is and if this person no longer understands the first language learned, indicate the second language learned. The categories provided for responses were "English only," "French only," "both English and French," and "neither English nor French."
In the new mother tongue questions, both on the short and the long form, the category "both English and French" for that answer has disappeared. Why would that be? Now you can only answer "English," "French" or "other."
Senator Tardif: Good question.
Ms. Chavez: For the information I asked one of our team members to look at, we prepared something about what was on both questionnaires of the 2006 census and what will be on the 2011 one. Perhaps it was not compiled correctly, but the 2006 census says here "English," "French," "other," specify. We would have to look into this question to be able to answer you accurately.
Senator Fraser: I have here the first question: "What is the language that this person first learned at home and still understands?" You get "English," "French" or "other." I would wonder why we did not include the possibility of both there, but we did not.
The follow-up question was: "If this person no longer understands the first language learned, indicate the second language learned." That was where you were allowed to say "both English and French." You will not be prompted to say "both English and French" this time.
Ms. Chavez: You are asking us why?
Senator Fraser: Yes.
Ms. Chavez: We did not decide that. First of all, we have to look at the question because I do not have them in front of me. However, we can certainly look into giving you an answer to your question.
Senator Fraser: It is all those exogamous couples we were talking about. We all know couples where the parents make an enormous effort to teach their children both languages simultaneously. It is my impression that in Quebec, the number of those couples has been increasing over the past few decades. I think it is a pity that Statistics Canada has not tracked that already more than it has, and that it will apparently diminish the tracking even more.
Ms. Badets: I would have to look at what you are looking at, but my impression was that they were the same questions. Again, I will have to look at that and follow up. I am not quite sure what that is.
Senator Seidman: I also would like to go back in a supplementary and talk about the data that are being collected in the national household survey, in terms of your responses to Senator Tardif. Is it the case that the questions that will be asked in the national household survey are, in fact, identical to the questions that would have been asked in the mandatory long-form census?
Ms. Badets: Sorry, can you just repeat that?
Senator Seidman: Is it the case that the questions that will be asked in the national household survey are the same as the questions that would have been asked in the mandatory long-form census?
Ms. Badets: I believe that is the case. I am sort of worried about this kind of question.
Senator Seidman: That is my understanding as well.
Ms. Badets: We will have to verify that.
Senator Seidman: My understanding is that the questions in the national household survey will be identical to the questions in the mandatory long-form census.
The other issue has to do with the question Senator Fraser was asking about: The new questions on the short-form census. I am a little confused also because my understanding is that there are two new questions. The first question is: "Can this person speak English or French well enough to conduct a conversation?" The second question is: "What language does this person speak most often at home and does this person speak any other languages on a regular basis?"
Senator Fraser, this would capture what you were asking; it would capture whether both official languages are being used at home. "Does this person speak any other languages on a regular basis?"
Ms. Badets: However, Canadians can give multiple responses to that, and we would capture that. That would be captured. If people say "English and French" or "English and other," they can write that in. It is all captured.
Senator Seidman: Is it your understanding that these are the two questions that are being added to the short-form census?
Ms. Badets: That is correct, along with the mother tongue question.
Senator Seidman: Exactly. Thank you very much.
Ms. Badets: We do collect more; people can give us more than one answer.
Senator Fraser: You are right, Senator Seidman. That would capture some of what I am after, although not all of what I am after, but it would certainly be helpful.
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think even the national household survey, the new long form, will no longer inquire about the language of work.
Ms. Badets: That is incorrect. The national household survey will ask a question — the language of work. In fact, we ask kind of two parts to that: Most often and regularly. It should be the same question as in 2006.
[Translation]
The Chair: I have a question on the anglophone community in Quebec.
When federal agencies offer services or hire people into designated federal positions, they use census data. As regards anglophones in Quebec, one of your tables shows that approximately 600,000 people have English as a mother tongue; and approximately 900,000 people have English as the first official language spoken. That represents a difference in numbers. And when it comes to providing services or hiring people for designated bilingual positions, what data does Treasury Board use and who decides to use one set of data over the other? Are you given an opportunity to make recommendations?
Mr. Lepage: To the best of my knowledge, the Official Languages Regulations on service delivery determine the choice of variable; it also says there that Statistics Canada's method 1 was used. Treasury Board made that decision.
The Chair: Do you mean the 5 per cent? Somewhere the regulations refer to 5 per cent.
Mr. Lepage: Statistics Canada is not at all responsible for the proportions.
The Chair: I understand, but you can see that depending on the data used, there will be a large variance, can you not?
Mr. Lepage: Precisely. That is why when Statistics Canada was asked for its view, we put forth several methods. Treasury Board made the choice, with the figures to back it up. Statistics Canada did not make the decision to use one variable or the other.
The Chair: I understand. And when the Treasury Board Secretariat makes its decision, it does not inform Statistics Canada of this decision either. So we will not be able to know if, for the anglophones in Quebec, they used the number 600,000 or 900,000.
Ms. Chavez: You have to check with them. We focus on the questions and we publish the figures. As regards that type of decision, clearly you will have to go to Treasury Board for an answer.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
If there are no further questions, I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before the committee. I thank you for your patience, and I assume that you will send the information requested by senators to us; please address it to our clerk.
Ms. Badets: Yes.
The Chair: Thank you very much. Honourable senators, we will now go in camera to continue our work.
(The committee continued in camera.)