Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 13 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday, November 15, 2010
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5:05 p.m. to study the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it. (Topic: The English-speaking communities in Quebec.)
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable Senators, I see a quorum and I call the meeting to order.
Welcome everyone to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. My name is Maria Chaput, I am from Manitoba and I am the chair of the committee. I would also like to ask the members of the committee to introduce themselves. Let us start with the vice-chair.
Senator Champagne: Good evening, I am Andrée Champagne from Quebec.
[English]
Senator Seidman: Good evening. I am Judith Seidman from Montreal, Quebec.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I am Senator Fortin and I come from Quebec City.
[English]
Senator Wallace: John Wallace from Rothesay, New Brunswick.
[Translation]
Senator Tardif: I am Claudette Tardif from Alberta.
The Chair: Thank you.
[English]
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages pursues its study on English-speaking communities in Quebec and is pleased to welcome representatives of the Regional Association of West Quebecers. The committee looks forward to hearing more on this organization and how it is engaged in fostering the interests of the English-speaking community of West Quebec. We have before us tonight Ms. Heather Stronach, Executive Director; and Mr. Noel Gates, Secretary. Welcome.
I now invite Ms. Stronach to take the floor, and the senators will follow with questions.
Heather Stronach, Executive Director, Regional Association of West Quebecers: Thank you. Good afternoon, senators, ladies and gentlemen. The Regional Association of West Quebecers is pleased to have this opportunity to address the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages with respect to the English-speaking minority communities in the Outaouais. We believe the English-speaking communities make a valuable contribution and are an integral part not only of the Outaouais but also of Quebec in conjunction with other English-speaking communities in the province.
I would like to begin by giving you a little background about our association and the community for which we provide services. The office of the Regional Association of West Quebecers employs the community liaison and communications officer and the executive director who are guided by a dedicated board of seven directors. We have a membership of 400 and enjoy the support of many volunteers in our activities.
The Outaouais region covers 33,000 square kilometres that includes an urban area, the amalgamated City of Gatineau, rural areas, such as Les Rapides-des-Joachims, and small communities in the Pontiac and the Gatineau valley. According to a 2006 study, the English-speaking community in the Outaouais consisted of 58,723 anglophones who comprised 17.4 per cent of the region's total population of 338,190. By contrast, if you focus on the Aylmer sector of the city of Gatineau, the English-speaking population is 35 per cent of the total population of that sector.
In addition, approximately one-half the anglophones in the Outaouais are unilingual English speakers which presents a special challenge for them. In addition, roughly one-half the English-speaking population consists of seniors.
Therefore, there are many factors to consider when providing services to the English-speaking population in the Outaouais, including the fact that attitudes towards the provision of services can be influenced by the proximity of the Outaouais to the province of Ontario and the city of Ottawa.
With respect to our mandate, we play an important role in developing initiatives that support the minority English-speaking community in the Outaouais. Our association focuses on the areas of communications and community outreach, which encompass education, health and social services in a supportive role, youth, advocacy, seniors, arts, culture and heritage.
General activities include providing a wide range of general information to the English-speaking community on cultural and community services, community development, community events and health and social services. We are also aware of situations where the provision of services in English can be improved to better serve the English-speaking community and bring these matters to the attention of the appropriate authorities.
We participate in research and/or sponsor workshops relevant to young people's needs and aimed at giving them the skill sets required to enter the workplace and fully integrate into Quebec society. We distribute information regarding access to services for new English-speaking residents and refer people with questions about services to the proper sources of information. We refer to this as our new residents' package. We partner with other community groups in support of activities of mutual interest, and we seek opportunities to build bridges with the francophone community through information and dialogue.
For the remainder of this report, I would like to focus specifically on the youth population of English speakers in Quebec and the Outaouais.
In Quebec, there are approximately 180,000 mother-tongue anglophones aged 15 years to 34 years and approximately 13,500 of those anglophones live in the Outaouais. Our youth are dynamic, vibrant and generally well educated and are willing and able to make a valuable contribution to Quebec and to Canadian society. However, as part of a linguistic minority, they face many challenges to realizing their full potential.
In 2008, the Quebec Community Groups Network made youth a priority. With the participation of our association and many other community organizations across the province, the QCGN talked to over 400 youth aged 16 years to 34 years to better understand their aspirations and needs. The results were published in a report entitled Creating Spaces for Young Quebecers. The report came to four major conclusions about the aspirations of English-speaking youth. They want to stay in Quebec and make meaningful contributions to Quebec society and to its economy; they want to be bilingual; they want to foster better relations with the francophone youth; and they want to use collaborative youth-led approaches to their challenges.
While it is true that most of our youth want to stay in Quebec, many of them feel compelled to leave in pursuit of better educational and employment opportunities in other provinces or abroad. In fact, from 1991 to 2006, the number of English speakers aged 20 years to 34 years decreased by 21 per cent, mostly due to out-migration.
In the Outaouais, many of our youth are drawn out of their home region to Ottawa where education, employment, social and leisure activities are more accessible to them. This has a significant impact on the continued vitality of our English community.
Our youth say they sometimes feel like outsiders in their own region because they are unable to obtain public and private services in English and because of social segregation from the majority francophone community. They also feel as though they are at a disadvantage compared to francophone youth. Francophone primary and secondary schools are better funded, enabling better facilities, more extracurricular activities and other educational opportunities. The notion of two linguistic solitudes is therefore a reality among youth in West Quebec, a sentiment also expressed by youth in other regions.
English-speaking youth in Quebec also have much to be proud of. They can boast some of the highest rates of education and bilingualism in Canada: 70 per cent can conduct a conversation in French, 60 per cent can read French well and 39 per cent can write French well. However, these strengths are not translating into employment and economic opportunities in the way they should.
In 2006, 7.5 per cent of anglophones aged 25 years to 34 years were unemployed compared to 5.5 per cent of francophones. If one looks at our youth in the regions outside Montreal in places like Pontiac or Buckingham, relative rates of education and bilingualism are lower and unemployment is even higher. This is an unacceptable situation.
The reason English-speaking youth are not fully accessing employment opportunities despite having the tools to do so is because they have trouble bridging into the workforce in Quebec. They feel discouraged because they are not plugged into professional networks, causing them to miss out on internships, apprenticeships and mentoring opportunities. Many also feel, rightly or wrongly, that they lack the French skills to work in French, particularly in highly technical fields.
As your committee assesses the impact of the Official Languages Act, I can tell you that it has made a significant contribution to higher rates of bilingualism among anglophones in Quebec over the past four decades. It has shown English-speaking Quebecers and many other Canadians that bilingualism is a personal asset. Bilingualism has created a more cohesive Canadian nation, but more work needs to be done to realize its full social and economic benefits to ensure that our young people are functionally bilingual enough to work in French and to be full participants in Quebec society.
One of the strongest sentiments we hear from our youth is their generally positive outlook about being English-speaking Quebecers. They have strong identities and a sense of attachment to the heritage of the English-speaking community, to other ethno-cultural groups and to Quebec and Canada. If our communities and our government invest more in them, they will form the leadership necessary to maintain a vital English-speaking Quebec.
On behalf of our association and the English-speaking community of the Outaouais, I would like to thank you once again for the opportunity to speak to this committee.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I would first like to thank you for your excellent presentation. I must admit that, during the week we spent visiting Quebec, we noticed problems in the education system.
I have two questions for you.
My first question has to do with the problems experienced by young people. First of all, I was very surprised to see that young students were also facing problems in your region. It is really sad to see that there are also dropout issues. In Gaspésie, we noticed that a lot of students were dropping out and, as a result, they were not able to find a job and would end up relying on welfare.
I have also often noticed that the youth from your region had to leave for Ottawa. But, when these young people leave to try to get an education or find a job, do they also go to provinces other than Ontario?
[English]
Ms. Stronach: It is an issue that we do not have an English-speaking university in the Outaouais. The Université du Québec en Outaouais no longer offers an English program, so many of our youth leave the province in order to pursue higher education in English.
It is difficult at times to tell whether they come back or whether they stay across the river. The statistics indicate that sometimes after they have their education, after they have pursued employment and a job, that they may be drawn back to the region because of family or the environment. However, it is difficult for them to pursue higher education in the region.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: So you are saying that they are facing exactly the same problems as other young anglophones from other regions in Quebec. And that has an impact on other sectors, such as the elderly, because the young people leave and there are not many people left to take care of seniors.
I understand that you have also been involved in health and social services projects. I know there are a lot of seniors in Quebec, and I believe there are more there than in the rest of Canada. I have noticed that those seniors are often unable to find a place in a seniors' home. I imagine you are experiencing the same thing.
Through your work, have you been able to notice any major gaps in terms of care for the elderly?
[English]
Ms. Stronach: Yes, that does occur also in the region of the Outaouais. With respect to enough places for seniors to live when they can no longer stay at home on their own, to my knowledge, there has not been a crisis in finding a residence. In Aylmer, there is a large seniors' residence. That is a bilingual residence and they keep adding to it because they need more spaces for the aging population.
Based on requests we have from seniors, we find they are looking for people who can provide them services at home. Seniors are looking for people to mow the lawn, shovel the snow, and perform some small repairs so that they can stay in their homes on their own much longer. We need to find a reasonable solution for seniors.
Another aspect where there is difficulty is transportation, not so much in the urban area of Gatineau, but when you get out into the more rural areas and people are spread out much more. I do not mean just transportation to get to a doctor's appointment but to take part in social activities. In one of the regions in the Gatineau, there are a number of seniors' groups in the small communities around, and they come together about once every four or five months to share ideas, to share needs, to plan activities that they can do together, but it is hard for them to do that because of lack of transportation.
In terms of health, the actual visits to doctors or health services, in the Outaouais we have the Outaouais Health and Social Services Network. That organization looks after health for the community and includes seniors. They have just opened a resource centre, so they are much better equipped; but again, this is in the Hull area, so it is difficult for people much further out to take advantage of this service.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: It is true that the riding is very big.
[English]
Ms. Stronach: Yes.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Thank you for answering my questions.
Senator Tardif: Thank you for your excellent presentation. You said in your presentation: and I quote: "However, there is much more work to be done to ensure that our young people are functionally bilingual enough to work in French and be full participants in Quebec society."
In your opinion, how can we encourage the English-speaking youth in your region to become functionally bilingual in order to have access to more job opportunities?
[English]
Ms. Stronach: Many of the youth have bilingual capacity, but they do not have confidence in their ability to speak French. Something that would be of value would be to bring the French-speaking youth and the English-speaking youth together for opportunities to socialize, to be in a relaxed environment so they can interact with each other and learn from each other.
It is even a larger challenge for those people who do not speak French at all. It would be helpful to have something available for them outside the school system or in the community. As a project in the past year, our association offered a program in the English high school that used both English and French to train the students in an activity that could be used in the workplace. They could actually make a career of it. We did not choose the activities. We gave them an opportunity. We gave them 10 suggestions, and they chose two; one was carpentry and one was music.
Senator Tardif: Who are "they"?
Ms. Stronach: "They" are the students. The students chose which of these 10 courses they would like to pursue.
The music was conducted in French for the most part. The students learned the vocabulary and gained the experience in how to produce their music on DVDs. They made a presentation of their work. The students are also on YouTube.
The other area was in carpentry. The youngsters pursued that goal in a bilingual manner in order to have an opportunity to feel comfortable using the language.
Those are small steps to try to support the English-speaking youth in developing their French-language skills.
Senator Tardif: Would it be fair to say that there is a correlation between one's ability to communicate in the French language and the availability of job opportunities in the region?
I ask because you have also stated in your report that, in regions like Pontiac and Buckingham, where there is a lower level of proficiency in the French language, there is also a higher level of unemployment.
I am wondering if there is a link between not being proficient in the French language and with the jobs. In many jobs, you need to be bilingual. One of the ways to remedy the economic opportunities would be a better mastery of the French language.
Ms. Stronach: Yes. I would agree with what you are proposing.
Senator Tardif: The question is how that is done.
Ms. Stronach: Yes. In addition, most of the available jobs in this region require bilingualism.
Senator Tardif: That is right.
Ms. Stronach: If you are bilingual, then you have access to more job opportunities.
Senator Tardif: One of the ways of helping out the anglophone youth would be to give them opportunities where they could perfect their French-speaking skills.
Ms. Stronach: That is correct.
Senator Seidman: Thank you for your excellent presentation. You have told us tonight that over the last 15 years, Western Quebec — the region you speak of — has lost 21 per cent of English-speaking young people between 20 years and 34 years. That is a significant fact because youth are the future of any community. If you lose almost 25 per cent of people in that age group, it is concerning.
You have also told us that there is no university and that many young people go away to school where they likely find opportunities and pursue them. In your opinion, what would encourage or bring these people back to the community?
Ms. Stronach: My understanding is that the trend is shifting and that youngsters are starting to come back. That is the information I hear from our school board, which is the Western Quebec School Board — they are starting to come back. Partly, they come back for family reasons. If they have just gone away for education only, they would come back. However, it is a slight shift now compared to when those statistics were released.
Senator Seidman: I am asking you what could you do, or what could we do, to improve the situation so that they would want to come back? In other words, what would you suggest or recommend? What would make the difference?
Ms. Stronach: Economic opportunity.
Senator Seidman: Could you be more specific?
Ms. Stronach: First, they would need to be bilingual to have the opportunities they are seeking in the Outaouais. Without that, it would be very difficult for them. That is part of what is needed.
Senator Seidman: What would the economic opportunities be that you are speaking of? You say they have a very high rate of bilingualism. They go away to school. What economic opportunities would bring them back?
We are here to try to help, so I am asking you very directly what proposals you want to make to help with the vitality of this community that is in danger of disappearing.
Noel Gates, Secretary, Regional Association of West Quebecers: Part of the problem is created by the rather peculiar economic nature of the Outaouais, particularly in its centre where, essentially, it is an appendage of the federal government. I do not know that one can leave it up to the federal government to provide all the job opportunities that we are looking for in this discussion, even though there probably is something to be done even there. If they are bilingual, they are in a better position to take employment in the federal government and to have a diversity of opportunities open to them that a unilingual person would not.
If you look at the economic picture of the Outaouais, it has not been all that splendid in the last few years. The forest industries are in serious trouble; mills have closed. You might have noticed that at least a couple of mills — I can certainly think of two — have reopened with the aim of following other lines of production.
However, generally speaking, once you get away from the federal government, you are getting something rather like a depressed area. If you add that on top of the problem of not being sufficiently bilingual, young people are faced with an unduly serious challenge.
If I sound a bit hesitant in making any kind of proposal, it is partly due to a question of economic development. You have observed that there is a prosperous area in Gatineau, even though Gatineau has just taken a real knock with what happened to AbitibiBowater, which says it will reopen.
If you go up the Gatineau valley, you have people often coming in from Ottawa who are attracted by the beauty of the valley and the convenience of living there and being able to commute down to Ottawa. All of this in itself does not add up to a multiplication of job opportunities.
We are giving you a rather indefinite answer to a very definite question, but I believe it is because it is not just a question of bilingualism; it is also a question of economic development. Having said that, I think we would all agree that bilingualism will make a big difference.
This may be a good opportunity for me to draw your attention to a study that our organization performed a couple of years ago. We have a copy and the clerk has a copy. We did not have time to translate it into French, which is why it has not been distributed, but it can be made available to you.
In that study, you will find confirmation of the remarks that have just been made by several of you that, generally speaking, the problems of youngsters in this region are not very dissimilar from the problems you have encountered elsewhere. The two things that were emphasized by the group of young people who were interviewed and who provided us with their answers were the lack of employment opportunities and the lack of adequate post-secondary education.
There is an English CEGEP, but there is nothing beyond that. As Ms. Stronach mentioned, in 2007 the Université du Québec en Outaouais took the decision to phase out the few English courses they had, which were in the fields of business administration and project management.
We have discussed whether something should be done to try to get — shall we say — the affiliate of an English language university in this area. We have not made any move in that direction, but I think the question is open.
As to where people go to university, some of them go, of course, to the two universities in Ottawa. Others go to McGill. My oldest son started at Bishop's and then went to McGill. That may give you some idea of the way it works out.
I may say that I do not exactly know what we will get out of the next census, but I think we would get some indication as to how far the drain has continued. At the moment, we are in the position of having to say to you, "Well, in 2006, this was the situation."
Senator Seidman: That was four years ago. I appreciate the frankness with which you speak, and I do not mean to push you into making proposals, but I think you have answered the question very well. It is much more than the fact that these people go away for their education, because lots of young people go away for their education, but they return to their families, their roots and their hometowns. The question is why they do not return.
It is true that Ottawa is right across the river; it is simple to go to Ottawa to get your university education. The question is whether you want to go back and live in your community, have your house there and bring your family up there.
The fact that you talk about economic development is a critical fact. We have talked a lot about that on this committee. We have heard presentations about all kinds of problems that the anglophone communities across Quebec have with small business opportunities and developing private business. I think it is something we need to think about, and it is something perhaps you need to think about, how one can encourage that.
Mr. Gates: To some extent, the machinery exists, does it not? We have some that are precisely for that purpose. The thing is to get a significant push in economic development, or at least get a sufficient number of increments of economic development that you begin to get a total effect that really matters.
One thing that seems to be very clear from the study that I have referred to is that these youngsters appreciate the place where they have been brought up. They were not unhappy to go back there and stay there, but this is what they are up against.
Senator Seidman: Thank you very much. I appreciate your response.
Senator Champagne: You seem to feel that young West Quebecers feel they cannot really join the workforce and get the good jobs if they are not bilingual. Would you say that in the same area a unilingual francophone would find it easier to get the good job?
Mr. Gates: I do not know that I would make such a categorical statement, but I would think being a unilingual francophone would probably matter much less. The main question will be whether the job exposes the young person to people who converse in both official languages. I think you have had the general push in Quebec, so people should be able to work in their own language, namely French. In this region, I guess that is bound to be diluted to some extent by the fact that there is considerable exposure to an English-speaking public.
Where we are on the Quebec side of the river, I would say there are not a large number of jobs, outside the federal government, where you will require both languages for high-level executive work. We really do not have that much in the way of large industries. This is not Montreal.
In a qualified reply, I think for a francophone it would matter less to be unilingual, but I think there are many jobs where you cannot really get away with having only one language.
Senator Champagne: I cannot help but go back a few years, and it should still happen, when we thought that all the airline companies should be subjected to the Official Languages Act. I heard some people saying, but you cannot ask cabin personnel coming from out west to speak French. However, would a unilingual francophone from Quebec get the job if he or she did not speak English? This is where it goes both ways.
I am trying to see how you see it. I am the little girl from Quebec and I did learn the other language at one point in my life. I do not know if, at 70 years of age, I would still learn it, but thank God I have learned some of it.
If a francophone must speak English to get that job, why should an anglophone not speak French to get the same job?
Mr. Gates: What we have been concerned about is acquiring facility. If I can speak from my own experience, to put it bluntly, in the past, francophone people learned English because they had to. I still see the resentment that this causes. Only the other day in our local weekly paper there were several letters to the editor saying exactly that sort of thing: why should we have to do it?
Speaking as an anglophone, I found it exceedingly difficult to get started in French, despite the fact that in school in England I had French grammar hammered into my head, which is an advantage that I think not everyone has had. Going out with young people who were French-speaking years ago, when I was a lot younger, there was a tendency for them to speak French to each other and speak English to us, and somehow it meant that you never got going in French.
Finally, I had various experiences that I can be thankful for that overcame that. I do think many people have difficulty in overcoming it and it certainly is not a lack of goodwill. After all, in the last few minutes, we have been discussing how we can make it easier for anglophones to be bilingual, and sufficiently bilingual to get good jobs. We had in mind particularly technical occupations. One of the things that was done in the little experimental workshop that Ms. Stronach referred to a few minutes ago was to give the English kids some of the French vocabulary required in the areas where the workshops were located, namely, sound engineering and carpentry. That will clearly be one of the things that will influence the ability to get a job. It is not sufficient to be bilingual but to be sufficiently bilingual in the technical jargon of the particular occupation.
I have given you a very mixed response, but to answer the question you have asked, there is no reason why it should be one-sided. I would ask you to bear in mind that there is a certain psychological block to learning the other language.
Senator Champagne: Two or three weeks ago, I was in Switzerland for the francophone summit. I was talking with young people in the restaurants, in the streets. To obtain their high school diploma, they have to speak four languages: French, English, Italian and German. Some of them have Romansh as well. Maybe they have found the right way to do it. If we did not give a high school diploma to someone who did not speak at least our two official languages, maybe we would not have that problem with our young anglophones in the Quebec area and francophones in the rest of the country. How do you feel about that?
Mr. Gates: In Quebec, you do have to pass in French to obtain your certificate. The question is whether the level of French is adequate.
Senator Champagne: Do the French people have to have a French examination?
Mr. Gates: Yes.
Senator Champagne: Do the anglophones have to pass a French exam?
Mr. Gates: Oh, yes.
Senator Champagne: French people will have at least one examination in English, but it is not at the same calibre as what they would need in French.
Mr. Gates: I am not sufficiently well informed to make a comparison, but it is a fact that you have to pass in French to get your high school diploma. What we are discussing is the level of bilingualism that is adequate for job-getting. We know that is a very different matter.
Senator Wallace: Thank you for your presentations. I am interested and I not surprised when I heard you say that your group has at least two focuses. The first focus is to improve the employment opportunities and the retention of English-speaking youth in Quebec. One of the solutions is to improve the quality of bilingualism of the anglophone youth in Quebec. That seems to make sense.
I also heard you say that one of the problems for anglophone youth is that there are not enough English-speaking schools or universities in Quebec. Therefore, the youth leave the province rather than stay in Quebec. Are those two positions reconcilable? We all want to see harmony in the province of Quebec. We want to see a closer relationship between all English- and French-speaking Canadians. Your focus is particularly on youth and that is good.
Are those two positions are reconcilable, to improve the quality of bilingualism in Quebec and, at the same time, to increase the emphasis on English-only educational institutions. Does that not lead to the existence of what you refer to in your presentation as "two linguistic solitudes"? Are those two positions reconcilable and can they result in that solitude continuing to exist well into the future?
Ms. Stronach: Our presentation has focused on the youth component, that is quite true, but youth is not the only avenue that we pursue in our organization. It is a vital component of our focus because the youth will be the future.
I am trying to find the words. One of the goals is to have a well-educated population, well-educated youth. Another is to try to keep them in the province. We talked a little bit earlier the outflow. The perspective was that if we have a university or if the opportunity exists to take English courses through another university that may be a bilingual university, we may help keep students here, but I also think part of that education would need to enhance the bilingualism capabilities.
With respect to the earlier conversation, I am a graduate from an English high school in Montreal where we could not get out of high school without passing a certain level of French. The difficulty was, you passed the level of French but you did not seem to have an opportunity to use it outside the classroom, which meant you did not internalize the language and so you really did not grasp it because the opportunity was not there.
There needs to be both if the objectives are to try to keep youth in the province and enhance their bilingualism.
Senator Wallace: I am not advocating a position on this. I am just interested to hear your reaction to it.
Logically, if only English educational institutions continued to be developed in Quebec, they obviously would attract English-speaking students. Would that not tend to pull them away more from the integration with French-speaking Quebecers and would they not tend to seek comfort and opportunity amongst themselves?
Ms. Stronach: Maybe the ideal would be to have a university that offered both so that there would be the integration between the two cultures. I think that is an ultimate goal. It is not to have the two towers.
Senator Wallace: That is right.
Mr. Gates: There is something to be said there. I think that Senator Wallace has put his finger on a rather delicate point. Ms. Stronach will perhaps be able to correct me if I am saying something incorrect, but I think there has been evidence in the area where we live, for example, which is Aylmer, that you have a large influx of new population there. I do not mean anglophone population necessarily, but there are anglophones in it. That has not been proportionately reflected in the English schools of the area, so what is going on? There is an indication that parents are sending their children to the French schools.
In Quebec, if you do not do anything about it, it will be automatically assumed that your children will attend French school. An anglophone parent, who wants his or her child to attend an English school, has to apply for it. Provided you are within the terms of the Charter of the French language, the so-called "Canada clause," then you will have permission for your child to attend an English school. However, it looks as if there are many parents who decide to send their children straight to French school. I think that poses a difficult problem, and I do not have the answer to the question that you have really asked.
We see a value, and it has been emphasized in our presentation, in the continuation of an English-speaking minority in Quebec. We think we have something to contribute.
I do not want to get lost in digressions, but this was the point made by the president of the Quebec Community Groups Network, our umbrella organization, in a brief that was recently submitted to the National Assembly in connection with Bill 103. The president, Ms. Leith, said that it was time that both sides got together, ensured the future of our minority populations, and not simply treat it as a continuing antagonism. One of the reasons why we have the Regional Association of West Quebecers is because we believe that.
If you do not have schools in which English-speaking children will be acquainted with their own English-speaking culture, then the community has really lost something. The largest English-speaking institution in our area is the Western Quebec School Board. If that board were to disappear and all the children were to go to French schools, I think you would find that the English-speaking community would, over a period of time, cease to exist in any recognizable form. This is a question about value. It is a value we believe in. We support the brief that Ms. Leith submitted to the assembly.
I think the question really is to find suitable ways of improving not only linguistic ability but also sociability between English and French youth so that we can continue to have recognizable anglophone communities in Quebec, which would make their own specific contribution to Quebec.
Senator Wallace: I certainly understand your point. In the context of promoting bilingualism, however, from personal experience, two of my children went to Bishop's University. Both are bilingual, but I can assure you that going to Bishop's did not further that. It is an English school.
Mr. Gates: Yes, I know.
Senator Wallace: That was in my mind, namely about the reconciliation of these two positions. However, I am taking more time here and I know there are others who wish to ask questions.
Mr. Gates: I think it is an important question.
Senator Tardif: I am trying to transpose this into another minority perspective. I am a francophone from Alberta. The children and the youth there learn English. Although they are educated in a French school and their home environment is in French, for example in my situation, they learn English because everything in the environment and in society is in English. I am trying to understand how it is that an English-speaking Quebecer who is schooled in English — and, that is great; I completely agree with you that that is important for the strengthening of the English language, identity and culture, as well as for the home environment to be in English — could not become immersed in that and become more proficient in the French language because of the French influence in the province of Quebec.
Mr. Gates: Exactly. I have the impression and not a precise statement that it partly depends on where you are in Quebec. You could fairly successfully live your life in the Outaouais even now without learning a word of French. It will give you trouble because the public notices, your hydro bill, and so forth, will be rather difficult to learn to handle. However, this is the kind of thing that does make it possible for people to either not acquire French or acquire a minimal amount of French. What I do notice, from the reports that we have from other areas where you have been along the St. Lawrence, for example, is that people there are very isolated from the mainstream of English. In order to survive, you must learn French. I cannot help but notice that one well known recent Prime Minister of this country came from that part of the world. I am talking about Mr. Mulroney, of course, who was perfectly fluent in French and came from Baie-Comeau. I think it makes a considerable difference.
Senator Seidman: Ms. Stronach said that English-speaking youth in Quebec boast some of the highest rates of education in bilingualism in Canada. You said, "70 per cent can conduct a conversation in French, 60 per cent can read French well and 39 per cent can write French well." We need to be reminded of that.
It may be that there are isolated pockets in communities where this is not the case, but we should not lose sight of the fact that for young anglophones living in Quebec today, the majority of them surely are bilingual. They go to school and they are educated in French from grade 1. They have to pass high school leaving exams in French, both written and oral. We should not lose sight of that here.
You are bringing home a point of feeling confident in French and being able to hold down a job where one is as bilingual as one needs to be and, therefore, perhaps what we are talking about are opportunities to use French on the job in the technical and vocational areas where they need to do so. However, we should not lose track of the forest from the trees, so to speak. That was my point.
Senator Tardif: Do you agree, Mr. Gates?
Mr. Gates: I do agree. I think the thing to bear in mind, you will remember I said a little earlier that I think whether you are fine depends on where you are in Quebec. There is a bit of guesswork here, but I think that we will probably learn more in the future that there is a higher level of competence in French in, say, metropolitan Montreal. The opportunities are there to use the language, and it has shown up in much higher rates of bilingualism among the younger generation. I think we will learn more about that in the future.
Senator De Bané: You have said some very important things with which I agree wholeheartedly. You say, "We believe in a healthy English-speaking community, in a secure French-speaking Quebec; we believe that the English-speaking community within the Outaouais are alive and viable and have a significant role to play," but then you explain how things really are. When you have asked the younger generation, they have told you that they sometimes feel like outsiders in their own region because of social segregation from the majority francophone community.
Senator Champagne told you that when she was recently abroad, the younger generation could speak two, three, four languages. Here we are fortunate to live in a country that has two of the most important languages of the Western world. We are not talking about languages that of course have their merits but that are not all over the map, like the Flemish language, for instance. We are talking about English, which is the dominant language in the world, and we are talking about French. Those two languages I think are the only ones that are spoken on all five continents. We should feel blessed to have those two languages.
I want to give you my personal opinion as to why we are in this situation today as you speak very diplomatically of the two solitudes. If you watch the French network of CBC, the Societé Radio-Canada, they never talk about the English-speaking community in Quebec, which is close to 1 million people. When you say that this young generation feels social segregation from the majority of francophone communities, the French community never hears about their fellow Quebecers who speak English. Our committee here had toured the province of Quebec for a whole week; I never saw Société Radio-Canada cover our hearings, ever. That concerns the English. We never talk about them, and this is a federal institution. The main characteristic of our era is communication.
The Societé Radio-Canada, in my humble opinion — this is my personal opinion — is to a great extent responsible for those two solitudes. I never see an English-speaking Canadian on la Societé Radio-Canada. As you say, the majority of the younger generation are bilingual today, but they must not be shown, we should never talk about them and this is what we have today. You have Societé Radio-Canada that never talks about the Franco-Albertans or those from New Brunswick or Ontario. They never talk about them.
The Acadian University of Moncton just published a very thorough study, and they say: "No, we are covered by CBC, not by Radio-Canada. The Société Radio-Canada is Quebec centric and that is it. Francophone and old stock Quebec, of course."
This is a federal institution. The last thing I want is to have this institution become a propaganda institution. Nobody would listen to it, but it should, according to the law that was passed unanimously by all federalist members of Parliament in 1991, reflect all the components of Canadian society. It never talks about the 1 million English-speaking Quebecers.
You are right when you say they feel segregated, they have no network, et cetera. In my humble opinion, your description hits right on the head of the nail. The main culprit, in my humble opinion, is a federal institution, la Societé Radio-Canada. We never hear about English-speaking Quebecers from them, ever.
[Translation]
The Chair: I am sorry, Senator De Bané. Did you have a question for our witnesses?
[English]
Senator De Bané: I have given you my opinion; please feel free to comment. I have concluded that, as the Acadians say, the "Téléjournal" tells you about Quebec and CBC tells you about Canada. They are two different worlds.
[Translation]
The Chair: Would you like to comment on that?
[English]
Ms. Stronach: I am not sure it is that black and white, and I am speaking from my own experience as an anglophone growing up in Quebec. As an individual, I need to take responsibility, too, if I want to speak both languages.
It is very ironic that my French has improved in the two years that I have been Executive Director of the Regional Association of West Quebecers, an organization that supports the English-speaking communities, so go figure.
Mr. Gates: I can add if we are remembering our past that I am a former interpreter in this parliamentary institution. I interpreted from French to English. The number of French interpreters was rather large compared to the number of English interpreters, and for obvious reasons; it improved my French enormously. I spoke to you about the psychological block. I think that cracked the psychological block. That is not an experience that is open to everyone. I had a bit of luck.
Frankly, Senator De Bané, I have to admit I very seldom watch Société Radio-Canada and I am not really in a position to make a comparison. I have a feeling that one should not point the finger solely at them, if indeed it should be pointed there. There still is a sort of social barrier, and just how formidable it is will depend very much on the community where you live. Again, it may be very difficult to generalize.
We have a large English-speaking population where we live in Gatineau. There are probably quite a large number of people who certainly have contact with English-speaking people, but in their daily lives, and especially in their family lives and the lives with their friends, it is very doubtful if they meet many English-speaking people at that sort of social level. Probably the same thing could be said of many of us.
All of this creates difficulties of communication and understanding, and it is certainly not something that will be overcome very easily. One conclusion of the 2008 QCGN study, was if you can create opportunities for English- and French-speaking youth, for example, to come together, sometimes for practical purposes, for the purposes of learning to work together, and sometimes purely socially, then you will overcome this difficulty.
Senator De Bané: How will we put an end to the segregation that young anglophones feel as long as French-speaking Quebecers do not see programs on TV where a French-speaking host and an English-speaking host are the organizers of that program? We will not put an end to that segregation until the younger generation can see that people from both groups can work well together. They can work together, and that would encourage the younger generation to see that it is possible.
However, we have construed over time the two networks, and particularly Radio-Canada, as 100 per cent French and Quebec French, not the whole of Canada; it is Quebec French, and this is it.
We know people watch TV for about 30-40 hours a week. I think it is dreaming to think that with this kind of TV programming, and, where they see only francophones working together to have them afterwards say, "Hey, we should build close relationships with the other community, with the English-speaking Quebecers of our age." They have never seen that on TV.
Anyway, I have given you my opinion. I have tried to understand for many years why in my province in my youth we felt overwhelmed by the English-speaking community. We really felt like the English would be the domineering community, but that is not valid anymore. However, the defensive reaction is always there, but I do not find that Radio-Canada has done its share to bring both communities to work together. They have maintained the two solitudes.
[Translation]
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: After travelling across Quebec, we have noticed that its English-speaking communities have many challenges to overcome. In your presentation, you mentioned that anglophones play an important role in developing initiatives that support the minority English-speaking community in the Outaouais. What would be the greatest achievement or initiative so far that has made you proudest of your organization's work?
[English]
Mr. Gates: We might have to go back beyond our own time. Senator, we have done two significant things. I am sorry; you have asked for one but I will have to give you two.
One is the establishment of the English language CEGEP. That was done quite a few years ago, even before I was a member, and Ms. Stronach is more recent still.
Ms. Stronach referred to the establishment of the Outaouais Health and Social Services Network, the OHSSN, which was established by a three-year grant. The grant was administered by West Quebecers. OHSSN is now an independent institution. As Ms. Stronach explained, it has set up a resource centre for the very vital business of giving health information.
I would say those are the two most significant things that have been done so far.
[Translation]
Senator Champagne: I have more of a comment than a question. Unlike Senator De Bané, I do not really believe that there is segregation between francophone youth and anglophone youth.
I raised my family on the south shore of Montreal, in a community called Saint-Lambert. When we moved there, there were as many francophone families as there were anglophone. On moving day, my six-year old little girl came to tell me that she did not want to stay there because everyone spoke English. I told her to go play outside.
[English]
I can assure you that, two years later, all of the children of those four families were bilingual. There is no segregation unless we insist on it.
I think you will agree that if the young people had young people their age next door who spoke the other language, next thing you would know; we would have a bunch of bilingual Canadians in the province of Quebec and elsewhere. Maybe our anglophones in Quebec would not feel so alone in their little corner. We do not want that. We want them all to be together. That is what I hope for. I have done my best for God and country, I swear.
The Chair: Ms. Stronach and Mr. Gates, thank you for having been with us this afternoon.
[Translation]
Thank you for your presentations and for answering our questions. On behalf of the committee members, I wish you good luck and continued success in your work.
(The committee adjourned.)