Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on
Official Languages
Issue 17 - Evidence
OTTAWA, Monday, March 7, 2011
The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages met this day at 5 p.m. to study the application of the Official Languages Act and of the regulations and directives made under it (TOPIC: Media and the vitality of official-language minority communities).
Senator Maria Chaput (Chair) in the chair.
[Translation]
The Chair: Honourable senators, I see that we have a quorum; I call the meeting to order. I welcome you to the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. I am Maria Chaput from Manitoba, chair of the committee.
Let me start by inviting the committee members to introduce themselves.
Senator Champagne: I am Andrée Champagne from Quebec.
Senator Rivard: I am Michel Rivard from Quebec.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I am Suzanne Fortin-Duplessis from Quebec.
Senator Losier-Cool: I am Rose-Marie Losier-Cool from New Brunswick.
The Chair: Thank you. As you know, the committee is interested in everything to do with official languages and language minorities. The committee wants to learn more about the impact of the media on the vitality of official- language minority communities, as well as the access to TV5 for minority francophone communities, and so we accepted the request to appear made by TV5 Québec Canada.
Today we welcome the President and General Manager of TV5 Québec Canada, Ms. Suzanne Gouin, who will speak to us, among other things, about TV5 and the current licensing conditions granted by the Canadian Radio- television and Telecommunications Commission.
Madam, thank you for coming; you have the floor. Afterwards, the senators will ask you questions.
Suzanne Gouin, President and General Manager, TV5 Québec Canada: Madam Chair, I am Suzanne Gouin, Chief Executive Officer of TV5 Québec Canada. I would first of all like to thank you for your kind invitation to appear before this committee. TV5 finds itself at a crossroads today, and we are thankful that you have provided us with a tribune on which to outline the threats that are endangering its future.
However, prior to describing our concerns in this regards, please allow me to present TV5 to you and provide a brief historical background.
For those interested in an overview of TV5's programming, the clerk has a two-minute DVD on our programming that I invite you to view.
TV5 Québec Canada is a non-profit organization which, with the support of both the Canadian and Quebec governments, administers the specialized French-language service for TV5. It has now been doing this for 20 years.
The mission behind this service has twin objectives: to provide all francophones and francophiles in Canada with a broad window onto the international francophone scene, as well as a dynamic reflection of the wide diversity within francophone Canada itself.
It also has the complementary mission of helping to promote the international exposure of Canadian French- language television productions, by means of its partnership with TV5 Monde.
To accomplish its mission, TV5 has developed a structure and undertaken certain commitments that are quite unique in the world of Canadian specialized television. It is the only special French-language service administered by an NPO. This means that TV5 does not have to produce financial benefits for shareholders; its total revenue is allocated to carrying out its mission.
It is the only specialized French-language service to allocate at least 95 per cent of its programming to programs originally created in French. There are no French versions of British or American television shows on TV5. The programs we broadcast have been designed, produced, directed and filmed in French by French-speaking creators and artists from here and elsewhere.
It is the only specialized French language service to have undertaken commitments, translated into license conditions, to the effect that a predetermined percentage of its annual expenditures on Canadian shows be devoted to programs produced in French outside Quebec.
We thus provide a significant degree of support for francophone producers outside Quebec. It also allows the communities from which they derive to demonstrate their capabilities and aspirations.
Among other things, we have taken the initiative of creating the TV5 Digital Creation Fund, so that young francophones throughout Canada have an opportunity to express their creativity in their own language via the new media.
TV5 is also, after RDI — whose distribution in the basic service for the anglophone market is mandatory — the specialized French language service which benefits from the produced distribution outside Quebec.
Today, TV5 has nearly 7 million subscribers across Canada. We hold this very wide distribution to a number of factors. First, to the quality and originality of our programming. This allows francophone Canadians to, first, express themselves and identity with a national channel broadcast right across the country and, at the same time, access the best of international francophone television in terms of news and current affairs programs, drama, documentaries, variety shows, cultural programs and intelligent televised game shows, all on one channel.
Then come our own experience and perseverance. As of the granting of its license in 1987, TV5 began to develop a close relationship with its audience, the francophones and francophiles of Canada. This relationship has continued to be enriched every since.
Today, this dialogue, which is based on mutual appreciation and respect, is further supported by an intensive utilization of the social media, which helps refine our understanding of the needs of francophone communities and to stimulate their development.
A CROP survey published in 2008 indicated that nearly 90 per cent of francophones outside Quebec wanted TV5 to be offered to them as part of their basic service, including 87 per cent in Ontario and the Maritimes, and 95 per cent in British Columbia and the Prairies.
Furthermore, all affiliations, associations and federations of francophones outside Quebec have always backed up and supported the efforts of TV5 to attain as wide a distribution as possible. The same may be said for the ministerial conference on the Canadian Francophonie and the Commissioner of Official Languages.
Lastly, we hold the fact of our broad distribution to a regulatory framework that took into account the realities and particular needs of independent services, like TV5, and which was centered mainly on the attainment of the social and cultural objectives outlined in the Broadcasting Act.
It now appears that this regulatory framework is to be profoundly transformed as of next September 1, and centered more on the establishment of a competitive balance between the handful of large media organizations that today control nearly the whole of the Canadian broadcasting system.
When combined, these two phenomena — weakening of the regulations and the attainment of an extreme level of media concentration, vertical integration and convergence — are likely to create a highly problematic situation for the future of all programming services that are independent of this small group of large integrated organizations. This is particularly through of a unique, autonomous, non-profit service like TV5.
This new regulatory framework removes the current obligation of cable licensees serving francophone markets to include TV5 in the basic service offered to all subscribers. For economic reasons, this modification should reduce TV5's subscriber base in Quebec by 20 to 25 per cent.
This regulatory framework will remove the obligation which applied to all cable companies serving anglophone markets to distribute in digital mode all specialized Canadian French language analog services, like TV5.
This new regulatory framework also removes the obligations of cable companies to distribute specialized Canadian services to their analog subscribers, who still represent more than 20 per cent of total subscribers today.
Lastly, it gives distributers very great discretionary power to determine conditions related to distribution, assembly of packages and tariff structure of those specialized services that they will be kind enough to accept to distribute in the future.
All of these provisions risk having a catastrophic effect on the accessibility to TV5 for francophones and francophiles residing outside Quebec.
Already, certain distributers are proposing to offer TV5 as part of a package made up of international channels in "foreign'' languages: German, Italian, Spanish. This would seem to mean that Canadian francophones or francophiles outside Quebec who wish to continue accessing TV5 would have to pay several dollars each month to receive a channel package including only one in French. Or they could select TV5 à la carte for one dollar per month even though TV5 is only invoiced to distributers at the rate of 2 to 8 cents per month, depending on the number of francophones in various provinces, when offered as part of the basic service.
These are, of course, extreme examples of the types of packaging that are being proposed. Yet the reality is such that, in the current world of strong media concentrations and convergence, TV5 has no real bargaining power when faced with giants like BCE, Shaw, Rogers and Quebecor, whose turnovers run into billions of dollars annually and who, collectively, control a minimum of 80 per cent of all cable subscribers, of all subscribers to Internet services, of all video-on-demand subscribers, of all national and regional conventional television networks, as well as the income from all Canadian specialized services.
If the regulations fail to take this reality into account and offer no protection to independent services — and particularly to the very rare services like TV5, run on a non-profit basis and whose mission is essentially social and cultural — then such services will be rapidly marginalized since, as far as these large integrated firms are concerned, there are of little account.
That is why TV5 intends to request that the CRTC render its distribution mandatory as part of the basic digital service by all terrestrial distributors and via satellite.
There is no profit motive behind this, but rather a simple desire to fulfill our mission and ensure that our service can be easily accessed by all Canada francophones and francophiles, at a low cost.
A commercial service might — and perhaps must — consider that it is more profitable for its shareholders to be distributed among 50 per cent of Canadians for $1 per month rather than among all Canadians for $0.35 per month. Not TV5.
In order to fulfill our cultural and linguistic mission, we must be accessible to the greatest number of francophones and francophiles as possible. We therefore prefer to be distributed as part of the basic service of all Canadians residing outside Quebec for $0.06 per month rather than being accessible to only 50 per cent of Canadians, even for $0.50 per month. We do not play in the same leagues nor though we pursuit the same objectives as the commercial services.
We very much hope and trust that the CRTC will be able to understand and recognize this situation. But we are taking nothing for granted. This is why we hope that your senatorial committee — which understands the importance of promoting both English and French throughout Canada, as well as being concerned about the development of communities using one of the official languages in a minority situation — would indeed like to support our request.
I thank you for your attention and will now be happy to answer any questions you may have.
The Chair: Senator Champagne will ask the first question.
Senator Champagne: Ms. Gouin, I am very pleased to see you again and I would be remiss if I did not tell my colleagues that I was made aware of the problem you are facing when you and I were at the Sommet de la Francophonie in Montreux. I must say that Ms. Gouin had to get up very early to come from Montreux to Vevey where I was staying so that we could have a very early breakfast together. I thank her for that. I think that I told you that the very first time that I discussed this problem with you.
I feel that it is very difficult for each and every one of us to realize from the start that TV5 Québec Canada is a non- profit organization. As we watch TV5, we see that there is quite a bit of advertising; commercials are constantly being shown. But a lot of people work for TV5 and I imagine that you have to count on income from somewhere.
Could you tell us about the sources of this income? It is all very well to say that you are non-profit organization, but you cannot function without money.
Ms. Gouin: No. We are indeed a non-profit organization; 75 per cent of our income comes from our broadcasting; 20 per cent comes from support from the governments of Quebec and of Canada; and 5 per cent come from advertising.
Senator Champagne: Only 5 per cent from advertising?
Ms. Gouin: We have only had advertising income for the past five years. That was when we saw how the market was evolving when television was deregulated; up to that time, we had no any advertising income. It became clear to us that it was important to open our channel to advertisers. By opening up to advertisers, we showed that we were not a closed network. Advertisers come to us because they are interested in advertising on our network because of the nature of our audience. And we have regularly proved that over the past five years.
Senator Champagne: I must tell you that last week, when we got access to the big book of estimates for this new budget that we are going to get in two weeks, I looked through it to see what was going to happen with TV5. I think that I can tell you that you will have some good news from the Government of Canada.
French is not a foreign language in any part of Canada. It is an official language. So this is part of a larger issue. Whoever came up with the idea of putting TV5 in with a group of foreign languages?
Ms. Gouin: Without pointing the finger at any one broadcaster, let me say that some Canadian broadcasters, some of them anglophone, do not have the sensitivity to francophone or francophile issues that we would hope to find in Canada. For some of them, a French-language channel is more a problem for their broadcasting space than a need to offer a francophone content to francophone or francophile TV viewers across Canada, especially in Western Canada.
Senator Champagne: The committee's work basically focuses on the two official languages. I am astonished to hear that, in some places, French is considered as a foreign language in Canada; no question that it is one of our official languages.
Madam Chair, I will have other questions during the second round.
Senator Losier-Cool: I had a chat with Marie-Linda Lord — an Acadian colleague of mine — who is the chair of the board of directors of TV5 Québec Canada. Her dearest wish is to see Acadia better reflected in the programming of TV5. After the exchange that you just had with Senator Champagne, do you think — and I am referring to page 9 of your presentation — that making TV5 available as a part of the basic digital service of television networks is a positive measure under the Official Languages Act? After all, the act now requires the federal government to actively promote the equality of both official languages in Canada. I think I know the answer.
Ms. Gouin: I will even go so far as to say that it is crucial. To give you an idea, as I mentioned earlier, it costs a broadcaster between $0.02 to $0.08 outside of Quebec to provide TV5. I can assure you that, if TV5 is no longer provided in the basic digital service of those broadcasters, starting on September 1 this year, I do not think that there will be any decrease in your bill of $0.02 to $0.08. Instead, you might see substantial increases, which will have nothing to do with the true value of TV5 as a product.
Senator Losier-Cool: My second question has to do with a better representation for the Acadian community. Is it possible for TV5 Québec Canada to create new channels solely for francophones outside Quebec? You know that the FCFA is following this matter very closely.
Ms. Gouin: As you know, the CRTC has raised the possibility of having a new interregional channel, as it is called, that would be offered to all francophones across Canada. We are studying it as an option for TV5. But that channel aside, which could be provided specifically to all francophones outside Quebec, I must, in my role as the president of TV5 Québec Canada, ensure that TV5 and its mandate are viable. We must make sure that, in the short, medium and long term, we must have the capability of offering new services to all francophones across Canada.
The Chair: I have a question that is complementary to Senator Losier-Cool's. Would there be any advantage in having two channels?
Ms. Gouin: The more channels provided in French to all francophones and francophiles in Canada, the more genuinely will the cultural identity of all francophones in Canada be assured.
It is almost our duty, within this Canadian identity of being a bilingual country, to make sure that francophones can access as many French-language channels as possible. Currently — you are perhaps already familiar with this situation — not only do they want to put TV5 in a package of foreign channels, but, as a francophone in a minority community, you also have another problem. If you want access to the RDS sports channel, you will get a whole slew of anglophone sports channels. If you want access to MusiMax, you will end up in a bunch of anglophone music channels. The problem is that, if a francophone wants to receive a varied selection of French-language content, it could be very costly, because the francophone offering has not been grouped together for francophones outside Quebec, despite the many requests we have made to the CRTC to do so.
This also makes TV5 even more vulnerable, because TV5 is not a continuous news channel. It is not exclusively an entertainment channel nor a specialty channel on some specific subject. The specific mission of TV5 consists in offering the best of the international and Canadian francophonie to all francophones and francophiles in Canada.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: Ms. Gouin, in your presentation, you mentioned some new more flexible measures proposed by the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission within the regulatory framework of cable companies that will come into force on September 1, 2011, and that jeopardize the broadcasting gains the francophone communities have made.
As you know, the decisions made by the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission can be appealed to the commission, under the Telecommunications Act, so that they can be reviewed, rescinded or amended. They can also be appealed to the Federal Court of Appeal under the same act. Is TV5 Québec Canada thinking of appealing the CRTC decision?
Ms. Gouin: In a legal process like that, TV5 does not have the financial means for initiatives that would mean going to Federal Court and then, likely, to take appeals to other bodies. We have already approached the CRTC and the commissioners on a regular basis about this matter. I think that we are now facing a fait accompli from the CRTC and the recourse we have at the moment is much more political than legal.
This is why, among other reasons, I am here before you today to get your support so that your committee could at least give some thought to the impact of these CRTC decisions, and so that you can in turn advise the appropriate authorities to think about this.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: If you have the committee's support to make representations to the government, you think that it is more effective.
Ms. Gouin: It is indeed.
Senator Fortin-Duplessis: I do not think that the Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Graham Fraser, has yet met with you since Ms. Marie-Linda Lord became the new chair of TV5's board of directors.
Would it help if the Commissioner of Official Languages got involved in this file in order to support you?
Ms. Gouin: The Commissioner of Official Languages has always supported us. I expect to meet him within the next two weeks. Mr. Fraser has always supported us whenever we have presented issues to the CRTC.
He has a very good understanding of this issue and of its impact on minority francophone populations.
Senator Rivard: You mentioned the percentage of your income. What is your operating budget?
Ms. Gouin: Our operating budget is about $16 million.
Senator Rivard: Approximately how many permanent and part-time employees do you have?
Ms. Gouin: About 70 people in all. We have to include the fact that TV5 does translation work for our colleagues in TV5 Monde. This translation work requires at least 20 permanent and part-time employees. Our broadcasting employees, who are the core of our work, are about 40 or 50 in number.
Senator Rivard: Is your office located in Montreal?
Ms. Gouin: It has been on the corner of René-Lévesque and Papineau for the past 20 years.
Senator Rivard: When we are travelling, say in Africa or in Europe, and we have the opportunity to get the daily news from Radio-Canada, is that through TV5?
Ms. Gouin: Yes, it is. This is a part of our unique mission, to support the development of Canadian francophone products on the international scene through the collaboration between ourselves and TV5 Monde in Europe. TV5 Monde showcases francophone products from Canada, and we showcase the European products that are available to us.
Senator Rivard: Has the Heritage Canada helped you in your endeavours?
Ms. Gouin: Clearly, the officials working on TV5 are people who have always supported us in all of our work. At the same time, broadcasting comes under Heritage Canada and, in that context, there has to be a certain arms' length distance to make sure that all files are treated equitably. However, up to now, the people with whom we have had the pleasure to work in Canadian Heritage, and I mean that, are people who know our file very well and who defend it before the authorities as much as they can.
Senator Rivard: I would like to address my next question to the chair. Would it be the role of the Senate Committee on Official Languages to produce a brief or to simply go before the CRTC to show its support? Is that customary? Do we have the right to do that?
The Chair: Senator, I think that the question you have just asked should be dealt with when we discuss our future work. I could try to find out if it is our role and if it has been done previously. To my knowledge, since I have been chairing the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, it has never been done.
Senator Rivard: I have asked the question, and I will get the answer when it is available.
Senator Champagne: Madam Chair, perhaps you will remember that when the Minister of Heritage, Mr. Moore, last appeared before our committee, I raised the question with him. He told us, in front of everyone, "I fully agree with you in saying that TV5 being broadcast all over Canada is a true asset for francophones.'' He is the heritage minister as well as the minister for official languages. He also told us, if you remember, "I cannot, as a minister, give any orders to the CRTC, but there is nothing preventing you, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, from putting your ideas forward.'' Those were his words. We can go back to the recording. I have kept the idea in my head.
The Chair: I can see you did.
Senator Rivard: We will come back to this.
The Chair: Yes, we will come back to it.
Ms. Gouin: In the coming weeks, the CRTC will be doing something major. There will be a hearing in June on vertical integration and its impact. The briefs have to be submitted by April 27, if I am not mistaken. Perhaps that is too short a time for you, but this is probably one of the CRTC's most important regulatory hearings. This is because, in the context of vertical integration that we are currently dealing with, it is clear that it protects companies under the umbrella of the giant conglomerates that we all know about. But as for independent players, especially non-profit organizations, there seems to be some kind of jurisdictional void. The CRTC has not really dealt with this problem yet.
If I could express my wish, it is clear to me, if your committee had the opportunity to propose to the CRTC that they should reflect on these matters, that it would carry some weight, I am sure.
Senator Tardif: I am from Alberta and I can vouch for the importance of TV5 in creating a living French-language environment in our province. There is no doubt that any decrease in access to TV5 for francophones and francophiles outside the province of Quebec would have a harmful impact. In your estimation, how many francophone homes could be deprived of TV5 offerings if the regulatory framework were changed?
Ms. Gouin: It is very difficult to give you an exact figure, because the way in which the cable companies give us their reports is not based on the language spoken at home, but on a system. If you live in Alberta, Calgary is considered a system. They do not make any distinction between francophone homes and anglophone homes. They give us a figure with the total number of subscribers. However, according to our estimates, we can expect to lose nearly 90 per cent of our subscribers outside Quebec after September 1, 2011, because of the management philosophy that is currently being proposed for the packaging of the various channels that will be offered from that day on. That is a huge number. I cannot give you the exact number of francophones who will be impacted.
I could give you a more recent example: last week, a cable company felt free to change our position on the list of services offered to his subscribers. In a single day, we received 145 complaints from francophone subscribers who could no longer receive TV5 with their service. We are negotiating with the company to find a solution, but obviously, even before September 1, 2011, people are already trying to test the potential reaction of the market if certain channels are excluded from the basic service.
Senator Tardif: Yes, Ms. Gouin, it would be catastrophic for minority francophones and francophiles, there is no doubt. And, if I understand correctly, it would be because they want to package you with an international class of services in which French would be considered in the same way as we might consider broadcasts in Spanish, Italian or German?
Ms. Gouin: First of all, it was the CRTC that did not want to force cable companies outside Quebec to offer francophone channels in a package of francophone Canadian channels. If the cable company does not want to provide such specific treatment for Canadian francophone channels, they are completely free to choose the kind of packaging they can provide to their customers. Offering francophone channels within thematic packages, be they continuous news, music, or sports where there is only one francophone channel in a whole bunch of anglophone channels gives the company the possibility of selling additional packages at inflated prices. This makes access to a diversified francophone offering practically unaffordable for francophones in minority situations.
Senator Tardif: Could you also explain to us how you help francophone producers and communities to fulfill their aspirations?
Ms. Gouin: With pleasure. We decided to suggest to the CRTC as a licence condition, without obligation, that 50 per cent of our production should go to producers outside Quebec. This would make access to a national francophone broadcaster easier for producers outside Quebec. The other thing that we did was to create a digital fund, the Fonds tv5.ca — the first digital fund ever set up — and we decided that 20 per cent of its projects should be directed towards francophones outside Quebec.
Those are the two aspects on which we are currently working: conventional television as we know it and, as there is great enthusiasm for new platforms, we want to make sure that our young francophone creators can find opportunities within a structure supported by TV5.
Senator De Bané: First, I would like to tell you how glad I am that we have had this presentation. Can I ask you: am I right to say that, to access TV5, I have to have a cable connection?
Ms. Gouin: Yes.
Senator De Bané: You also know that Montreal is a largest Canadian city with the smallest percentage of people with a cable connection, barely 60 per cent. So 40 per cent of Montrealers do not have access to TV5. Could you please explain to us in a few words the corporate structure of TV5 whose head office is in Paris, and what relationship TV5 Québec Canada has with it? Do we have a different status, for instance, compared to Switzerland, Belgium, Africa and so forth?
Ms. Gouin: For your information, Senator De Bané, TV5 Québec Canada is a Canadian company that is entirely separate from TV5 Monde. We are not a branch of TV5 Monde in France. We are two entirely distinct companies. TV5 in Canada is a Canadian channel operated by Canadians with its own board of directors and its own budget.
To give you an idea of how it works, TV5 Québec Canada has an operating budget of $16 million of which government money, from the governments of Quebec and Canada only, amounts to about 20 per cent of our budget. Our colleagues from TV5 Monde have an operating budget of approximately 110 million Euros, funded up to almost 92 per cent by the governments of Quebec, Canada, France, Belgium and Switzerland. Its board of directors is entirely different from the board of TV5 Québec Canada.
Senator De Bané: The corporate structure is very different from the others. The company here really is independent from the rest. To what extent would the situation explain the fact that, in many countries around the world, Radio- Canada newscasts are broadcast on TV5 Monde at unimaginable time slots such as 3 or 4 a.m.?
Why do people in Canada who are interested in news from Belgium get it at 8 a.m. or those who are interested in news from francophone Switzerland get it at a decent hour in the afternoon? When we are travelling abroad, those newscast schedules make no sense whatsoever.
Ms. Gouin: Senator, unfortunately I have no influence on that because TV5 Monde is in charge of its own programming schedule and makes its own decision regarding the schedules on its various networks. Unfortunately, we have little influence.
Senator De Bané: What does the federal government contribute to the budget of TV5 Monde?
Ms. Gouin: That is a good question. I know exactly how much the federal government has contributed to the budget of TV5 Québec Canada. I would say that it is about $4 million, but I cannot be sure.
Senator De Bané: Who stands up for the interests of Canadian television viewers living abroad who want to listen to news at a reasonable time of day?
Ms. Gouin: A representative from Radio-Canada sits on the board of directors of TV5 Monde and I am certain that he does his best to stand up for Canadian interests.
Senator De Bané: I would like to make a comment about the $0.08 that you mentioned earlier. This shows us how much the current policy needs to be reviewed. Madam Chair, I think that I can safely say that the CRTC is accountable to the Canadian Parliament.
The Chair: Yes.
Senator De Bané: If my interpretation of the act is right, the CRTC is really accountable and responsible to the Canadian Parliament. Considering what we have just learned, we should meet with CRTC representatives because, as you said earlier, it is ultimately the CRTC that is forcing companies like Shaw and Bell Télé to carry certain basic channels.
The cable companies will pair mandatory channels with some 20 other channels in order to bump up their bill. As you say, this allows them to change the package of channels that they must air, but they add 20 others in order to increase their price. The result is that people in Alberta will lose TV5.
As for sports channels, there will be one French sports channel and eight English ones, and there will be no package of French channels for those who are interested in francophone life. This is all very serious.
I am very worried when I see that the biggest city in Quebec is the city with the fewest people with cable. In fact, 30 per cent of people have no access to TV5. We should invite CRTC representatives to the committee so that we can speak with them. Madam, I would like to thank you very much because your presentation was most instructive.
Senator Losier-Cool: I agree that we should invite the CRTC. I remember Senator Champagne's reference to Minister Moore very well. Did you say the CRTC hearings will be in April?
Ms. Gouin: That is not when the hearings will be held, that is when briefs have to be submitted.
Senator Losier-Cool: Can the Senate Committee on Official Languages submit a brief to the CRTC? Perhaps it could be done quickly.
Senator De Bané: You are absolutely right. Every one of us could go ahead and submit a brief. And if each of us can do so, all the more reason for us all to. After all, the CRTC is accountable to Parliament.
The Chair: Senator Losier-Cool, we will make inquiries and discuss this further tonight.
Senator Losier-Cool: Thank you.
Senator Champagne: My question has little to do with the very important issue we are discussing today, but we will make inquiries. I see that Ms. Hudon is already doing something in this regard.
I am someone who watches a great deal of TV5. I must tell you that my favourite program was broadcast at some terrible hour late at night. We used to watch it at 11:30 p.m., but it is no longer on then. It was called La boîte à musique. It was an absolutely fabulous show with a host who would explain classical music without being pretentious. He was a pianist and an extraordinary host. Is it because a decision was made to no longer air it here, or it is no longer being produced in France?
Ms. Gouin: I will check because I want to be certain about my answer. Very often these programs are aired —it is a particularity of European programming — but not in weekly time slots. Often they air monthly or sometimes even quarterly.
We choose a selection of programs that we can air more regularly. Sometimes we have to stop broadcasting a program so that we can air it later in the season, once we have a sufficient number to show it regularly for roughly 13 weeks. That is usually the pace of our programming. Let me check and I will make sure that you have an answer by tomorrow morning.
Senator Champagne: That program was absolutely wonderful. We would finish watching the 11 o'clock news and then automatically switch over to TV5 for La boîte à musique. I do hope we will have the pleasure of finding it again.
I am aware that my first question was perhaps a bit off topic, but I took the liberty of asking it during the second round, Madam Chair.
I think that, with all that has been said today, you can go back to the snow in Montreal. I think you were very brave to have driven here today.
I think you have seen from my colleagues' comments that we are all very affected by what is going on. We will act as soon as our clerk and our Library of Parliament staff provide us with the necessary information, namely whether or not we can submit a brief or appear when they are discussing vertical integration. And I hope we can call on you once again, in order to make sure that we are saying the right things and saying them correctly.
I think you can leave here with the knowledge that you have made some friends among the senators who are members of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Every one of us supports the French language being available for the greatest number of people across our country, francophones and francophiles alike; and particularly for those who live in minority-language communities.
Thank you for coming; I am sure that the chair will repeat more or less what I have said. We will do our best to help you to avoid having to experience this huge problem every day. French must not be part of a group of foreign languages in Canada. We are here to ensure that French remains one of the official languages; the more beautiful one, in fact.
Ms. Gouin: Thank you.
Senator Tardif: I entirely support Senator Champagne's comments. You are here before us today, but what other measures or means do you have at your disposal to try and change the CRTC decision on this regulatory framework?
Ms. Gouin: One of the very concrete steps we are taking is that we have tabled an application under paragraph 9(1) (h) of the Broadcasting Act to obtain mandatory distribution of TV5 services across the country.
The CRTC decided to push back the date for the consideration of applications after June 2012. So we are going to table an application again in June 2012. The second step we will be taking, and this is probably the one that is taking most of our time at the moment, is to work on submitting a brief on the CRTC's entire thought process on vertical integration. We want to ensure, that, for independent non-profit channels with a cultural mission, the CRTC will set out a specific framework to ensure compliance with the Broadcasting Act and to allow channels such as ours to make a contribution across Canada.
Senator Tardif: Are you conducting an awareness campaign with the organizations that support you so that they also know about the impact of such a decision?
Ms. Gouin: We work with them on an ongoing basis, certainly with the FCFA. I meet regularly with francophone community organization chairs across the country in order to ensure that we are listening to their concerns and to share ours with them.
There is also one advantage that we have had for some time; it is the social media that allow us to be up-to-date and to articulate our position so that it is understood by francophones and francophiles across the country and the different associations that they represent.
Senator Tardif: Thank you. That is very important work.
Senator Champagne: In two or three weeks, we will once again be welcoming the Commissioner of Official Languages. You can count on all of us to pass on to him just how much we want TV5 to continue to be carried across the country and how much we are counting on him to also step up to the plate during the CRTC hearings.
Ms. Gouin: Thank you.
Senator De Bané: Does the CRTC agree with your estimate that TV5's variable transmission cost to subscribers is approximately 8 cents?
Ms. Gouin: Let me make one clarification. I mentioned that our rate was between 2 cents and 8 cents; for subscribers outside Quebec, this is the price that the cable companies pay. This is because it works by system and by the percentage of francophones within a system.
Take Lethbridge, for example; if the percentage of francophones is less than 6 per cent in the Lethbridge system, we will receive 2 cents. And I can tell you that that is mostly the rate we receive. The rate is regulated and has remained the same for 20 years.
Senator De Bané: For the cable company, adding a channel to the package that they make available under formula A, B or C, what does that represent to them?
Ms. Gouin: If you manage to get a cable operator to tell you exactly what his cost is, you will have accomplished a miracle, Senator De Bané.
Senator De Bané: You said that the cost to the cable operator is approximately 8 cents.
Ms. Gouin: The 8 cents is what they are paying us. They obviously have other costs: distribution fees, bandwidth costs, technology costs and employee costs. But what is their total cost for a typical package? If you get the answer, I would be very happy if you could give it to me too.
Senator De Bané: I don't know this industry, but there are fixed costs: the number of employees, and so on. Then there are the variable costs. Are the variable costs high compared to the fixed costs or are they really very low?
Ms. Gouin: I cannot answer you because I am not familiar with the cable industry. I would just say that the average profit for most cable systems last year was 20 to 30 per cent.
Senator De Bané: Oh, oh! That says it all.
Senator Champagne: The rest is up to you, Senator De Bané.
The Chair: I have a supplementary question. You are a non-profit organization and no doubt receive some revenue from subscribers across Canada. If the CRTC does not reverse its decision, the decision they intend to make, would it be a loss of revenue for you?
Ms. Gouin: An enormous loss.
The Chair: It is that significant?
Ms. Gouin: It would be at least 20 to 25 per cent of our revenue. In our most pessimistic scenarios, which sometimes appear to us to be a little optimistic, it could go as high as 40 per cent of our revenue.
The Chair: So it would be a loss of revenue for you and a significant negative impact on official language communities across Canada.
Ms. Gouin: It is not only a question of having access to TV5 products, but it also involves our commitments in terms of production. This is giving producers access to a market and a channel to sell their products to. It is clear that if we suffer a loss of revenue in the order of 40 per cent, we will have to go back to the CRTC and say that, unfortunately, we will not be able to respect the commitments that we made to them.
The Chair: Did you say that a high percentage of your revenues goes back into programming?
Ms. Gouin: The majority of our revenue goes into programming and to promotion. We could make the best programs in the world, but if no one knows that, it does no one any good. We plough the money directly back into programming and promoting the channel.
The Chair: Well, Ms. Gouin, I thank you very sincerely for appearing before our committee. As I said at the outset, it takes a person with commitment and conviction to come through such a snow storm to meet with us.
We too have the promotion of official languages in minority languages communities across the country at heart. What you have said today has not fallen on deaf ears. We will keep educating ourselves and try to see how we can decide on the best actions to take in the circumstances.
Ms. Gouin: Madam Chair, I thank you very much for this warm and welcoming reception. If I can help you myself, whether it is through information or more details about our industry, please be assured that you can count on me. I thank you sincerely for listening.
The Chair: I am going to suspend for a few minutes and we will then continue in camera, without transcription.
(The committee adjourned.)