Proceedings of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs
Issue 4 - Evidence - May 26, 2010
OTTAWA, Wednesday, May 26, 2010
The Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence met this day at 12:08 p.m. to study the services and benefits provided to members of the Canadian Forces; to veterans; to members and former members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their families (topic: implementation of the new veterans charter).
Senator Tommy Banks (Chair) in the chair.
[English]
The Chair: This is a meeting of the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. The committee is currently dealing with questions pertaining to the New Veterans Charter and examining ways in which that charter serves the interests of our serving members and veterans. Today, our focus is on members of the reserve forces who serve Canada so well.
Senator Pamela Wallin is Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. Retired General James Cox is our analyst and interprets what is actually meant when military people speak to us. Mr. Kevin Pittman is the clerk of the committee. Senator Lucie Pépin has had the interests of military families, in particular, in her heart for many years. We may also be joined by other members of our committee, depending on their availability.
Today, we have appearing before us, and for whose appearance we are grateful, Corporal Michael McTeague from the 32nd Combat Engineer Regiment, Jean-Pierre Godbout from the 35th Service Battalion of Canada, Master Corporal Martial Boivert from the 12e Régiment blindé du Canada, Corporal Thomas Bezruki from the Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada and Corporal Dominique Lareau from the Régiment de la Chaudière.
Gentlemen, we are pleased you could be here to take the time to inform us about the matters we are addressing. Would any of you like to begin with an opening statement before we take questions from members of the subcommittee? If not, we will proceed directly to questions.
Senator Wallin: I think we would like to hear from each of you about your own situation as reservists, as well as your approach to and your experience with Veterans Affairs Canada or the New Veterans Charter.
Corporal Michael McTeague, 32nd Combat Engineer Regiment, National Defence: Honourable senators, I was injured in 2006 and I submitted a claim to Veterans Affairs Canada in September 2008. I am still awaiting a final decision almost two years later, which I believe is a long time to wait for a determination on a disability claim.
I will soon begin the transition phase into civilian life. Given what I hear from other guys who have done it, the transition does not seem like an easy ride. It seems like it is quite tough to make the transition.
The Chair: Corporal, would you describe the circumstances in which you were injured?
Cpl. McTeague: How was I injured?
The Chair: Where, how, when?
Cpl. McTeague: I was on foot patrol in the Zhari district of Afghanistan on September 18, 2006. A man with a bicycle walked through the patrol and detonated himself. I was about three metres from the bomber.
The Chair: What was the result?
Cpl. McTeague: I was knocked unconscious for about five minutes. I awoke to someone standing over me. I did not have much feeling. I broke most of the bones in my lower limbs, lost part of my bowel and was struck in the neck by a ball bearing that resulted in spinal nerve damage. I was in hospital rehab for about six months.
The Chair: Pardon me for interrupting, but we will ask questions on an individual basis.
Are you now treated as a member of the permanent force?
Cpl. McTeague: Yes. It is as though I was still continuing in the military. I now work at a desk job as a clerk.
The Chair: Is your plan to leave the military?
Cpl. McTeague: I would stay if I could. However, due to the injury, I am not able to be promoted with the course I have to take.
The Chair: You have decided to leave.
Cpl. McTeague: It is my wish to stay, but it does not seem that they give you the option to stay because you must pass the fitness test and be able to perform your duties.
Senator Wallin: Are you part of one of the joint support units in your administrative job?
Cpl. McTeague: No. I work for Land Force Central Area Headquarters as a finance clerk. My home unit is the Integrated Personnel Support Centre.
The Chair: I want to ensure I was correct when I introduced all of you as members of the reserve forces who were on active duty when the events occurred. Is that correct in each case? In other words, is anyone a member of the permanent force?
[Translation]
Corporal Dominique Lareau, Royal 22nd Regiment (Formerly a member of the Régiment de la Chaudière), National Defence: Yes, I have been transferred since my deployment to the active forces.
[English]
The Chair: Are you now a member of the active forces?
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: At present, yes, but at the time of my deployment, I was a reservist.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. Corporal Godbout is next.
Senator Wallin: We should go around the table. Could you tell us what happened and where?
[Translation]
Corporal Jean-Pierre Godbout, 35th Service Battalion of Canada, National Defence: I was wounded. I was part of a convoy, following the vehicle in front of me. I could not see ahead because of the extremely fine dust. What happened was that I went over a hole and was nearly ejected from my seat; I was wearing a seatbelt. One week later, I began to feel sick. My stomach hurt and I was rushed to hospital in Kabul and the British performed emergency surgery on me. They did not know what was wrong with me, so they opened up my abdomen and saw that my colon was detached and twisted, and they removed my appendix at the same time. I then spent 12 days in hospital in a tent alongside some Afghans. I stayed there about five or six days in the British hospital in the camp where I was. I was then transferred to Kandahar, where they told me I was going to be sent home. But they were still unsure, they did not know if I was going to stay in Kandahar or not. That is more or less my story.
I had to fight with the Department of Veterans Affairs to try and sort out what happened because they thought that it was a congenital defect. I got some information. At 25 years of age, a detached colon is very, very rare, it is almost non-existent. We are still fighting over this. That is my story.
I was compensated for the scar only. My family could not come to see me in Kandahar. I had been there only one day when they transferred me. I did a nine-hour flight in an American Hercules to get to Germany, and then they transferred me to Quebec City, one day later. They managed to find me a seat on a commercial aircraft going to Quebec City.
[English]
The Chair: I want to make sure that I understand. It is your contention that the detachment occurred as a result of the accident and the forces that be disagree with that; is that correct?
[Translation]
Cpl. Godbout: Yes. Normally a congenital defect is detected within the first five years of a child's life. That is when the body is forming, when everything is taking shape. I have an aunt who is a radiologist in Quebec City, and she told me clearly, such a disease is very rare. If I had really had this, they would have had to send me for tests to find out why.
Senator Pépin: You would have had other problems before.
Cpl. Godbout: Yes, I would have had digestion problems. I used to be able to do everything I wanted, I could eat whatever I wanted. It is gradually getting better, because I had to have another emergency operation last summer as a result of the first operation. They said that it was a success, but it is not true. Normally I would not have needed to be operated on again in Quebec City. I was rushed to hospital, I had five knots, three tears, and I was exploding inside. They removed a lot of foreign bodies.
[English]
The Chair: Are you now functioning as a member of the permanent force?
[Translation]
Cpl. Godbout: After my operation in Quebec City, it took a month. I really got over it. I had the support of the JPSU. They were there to help me and provide me with physiotherapists and everything I needed. I am about 80, 90 per cent recovered. Except that sometimes my abdomen still hurts. These days I am feeling a bit worse. If I get very sick again, maybe I will have to have another operation.
At present, I am still in Class C because I was in the PODIUM task force. I went to Vancouver for two months. Now I am in the CADENCE force.
The Chair: Thank you.
Master Corporal Martial Boivert, 12e Régiment blindé du Canada, National Defence: I was injured on April 13, 2009. We drove over an improvised explosive device. My driver, Corporal Karine Blais, died in that explosion.
I had eight pelvis fractures, fractured transverse processes on my L2, L3, L4 and L5 vertebrae, a fractured femur, many internal injuries and a head trauma. Following my injuries, they sent me to Germany, to Landstuhl, where my parents came to stay with me. I spent about six or seven days there because for some time I was unconscious. Then I was repatriated to Canada, to Quebec City. I was confined to bed for three months because of the fractures to my pelvis.
Then I began my rehabilitation. I did not start to walk again with canes and crutches until four months after the accident; otherwise I was in a wheelchair. I have trouble tying up my shoes; I very often have pain in my back. I am continuing my rehabilitation with physiotherapy and a lot of physical reeducation. It is going well.
Still, I have a lot of trouble with the lump sum payment. I think that a monthly pension would be much more appropriate for the injuries I suffered. I began the process with Veterans Affairs less than a year ago, so it is quite new. I have received a first compensation payment.
[English]
Senator Wallin: Will you stay in the military, and what kind of work will you go back to; do you have any idea what it will be if you do stay?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: I would very much like to stay in the Armed Forces. I think my chances of being able to resume my old duties are good. But it is still too early to be able to say.
[English]
The Chair: We have been joined by two other of our colleagues: Senator Fabian Manning, the deputy chair of this subcommittee, and Senator Fred Dickson, whom I had the pleasure of accompanying to Holland to celebrate the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Holland. Witnesses, you will be hearing questions from additional members of the committee.
[Translation]
Senator Pépin: You say you prefer a monthly payment to a lump sum. Is this a lump sum, an annual amount? How does it work?
MCpl. Boivert: It is a lump sum.
Senator Pépin: It was probably a fairly large amount. It would be easier to manage monthly payments than it would a lump sum.
MCpl. Boivert: That is right.
Cpl. Godbout: I agree. The people coming back from Afghanistan are suffering a bit from post-traumatic stress. They get a big cheque for a lump sum, but at age 18 or 20, it is possible to spend it all in two days and then there is nothing left. Even when someone loses their legs, at some point they have to pay for their house. They have to find a civilian job then. With the monthly payment, they would know they had it for a lifetime.
[English]
Senator Pépin: What about you, Corporal McTeague?
Cpl. McTeague: I feel the same way: A pension would be better than a lump sum. If I were to receive a lump sum now, when I reach 60 or 70 years of age, I will not have anything left. My injuries will obviously affect me more when I am older and there will not be anything left.
Senator Wallin: What would happen, in your mind, if you stayed in the military? What would happen to that pension while you were still serving?
Cpl. McTeague: I am not sure how that would work.
The Chair: I would like to add a few things, so that we and others have an idea of what we are talking about.
Master Corporal Boivert, we have an idea of the parameters and limits of a lump-sum payment. Are you free to tell us what your lump-sum payment would be, either specifically or roughly? Will you get 100 per cent of the lump-sum payment?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: For the time being, my loss has been assessed at 30 per cent. That gave me a little less than $83,000.
[English]
The Chair: General Cox has reminded me of a couple of things. As we have heard, in the addition to the lump-sum payments there are other benefits that have to do with maintaining some level of income. Therefore, the lump-sum payment is not the only thing we are talking about.
With respect to Corporal Godbout's situation, the general has also reminded me that the NVC has a part in it stating that claims will be determined in favour of the soldier if there is no contradictory evidence. We should bear that in mind.
Coporal Bezruki, please go ahead.
Corporal Thomas Bezruki, Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada, National Defence: I was wounded in Afghanistan in January last year by an improvised explosive device. We were on tour during an operation and the rear of my vehicle was struck. I broke my back and I have a closed head injury. My sciatic nerve is pinched as a result of the fractures, and I have lost some feeling in my left leg, as well.
I am on permanent medical category within the CF. Right now, I am waiting for official word from Ottawa regarding whether I am staying with the army.
I have just come to the adjudication portion of my claim and was sent to the district medical officer. I teed up with her two weeks ago, and she did a complete physical examination so that they can make a final ruling on my case.
The Chair: What do you think that ruling will determine? I do not mean what the effect will be; rather, what questions are being determined in that ruling and what answers will come out?
Cpl. Bezruki: Overall, they are doing an assessment of mobility and the ability to do things on your own, such as tying your shoes, jogging, and standing for long periods of time. They also check to see if your injuries have healed to any degree, what stage they are at, and what further medical attention will be needed in the future regarding the specific matter. It will also go to the ruling board for the percentile they will give you in regards to your claim.
Senator Dickson: Could you please explain the process? For example, are you entitled to present an independent medical opinion? Do you have counsel; do they provide opportunity for a non-military lawyer? What I am coming to is whether you have a sort of Workers' Compensation Appeals Tribunal.
Cpl. Bezruki: In regard to that matter, senator, the adjudication portion of the process I believe gives me the ability to seek out counsel through Veterans Affairs. I have not gotten to that portion quite yet, as I am waiting for the district medical officer to make the decision and send the paper back to Charlottetown.
After that, I can get into a VIP program which will compensate me if I want private counsel to represent me. If I have any discrepancies, I can appeal my claim to a degree.
Senator Dickson: However, in the first instance, you had to choose from a list provided to you, did you not?
Cpl. Bezruki: You get paperwork upon your claim being submitted to your district office; you fill it out and doctors write a review on your actual case for each separate injury. Then it goes to a pension medical officer, I believe it is, and they send it to Charlottetown to be reviewed again. The paperwork then comes back. That is the stage I am at. The district medical officer will provide further detail, as there is not enough information to specify a percentile.
The Chair: General Cox has reminded me that the process being discussed — getting private or outside counsel — can only happen after the initial decision or assessment has been made.
Senator Dickson: In addition to counsel, what about independent medical opinion?
Cpl. Bezruki: They are civilian medical representatives. I am treated at Sunnybrook Hospital, so a majority of my ophthalmology and fracture clinics are with the surgeons and doctors writing up these papers for Veterans Affairs to look at, to provide the documentation to make a decision. However, at that point, Veterans Affairs comes back from Charlottetown stating, "We want more information on this specific injury."
I could go privately and have a family MD take a look at my paperwork. However, it will be more beneficial to have a specialist write up the paperwork who can see my entire medical file — my MRIs and CT scans.
Senator Dickson: Insofar as the independent medical examiner is concerned — the person that you engage — in addition to written evidence, do they have an opportunity to present oral evidence to the tribunal?
Cpl. Bezruki: I believe at the end of the adjudication process, upon my appeal, the counsel assigned to me will have the opportunity to meet with my medical professionals and reflect upon questions generated from their advice.
The Chair: In the meantime, in addition to the pay you are receiving — I presume you are receiving full-time pay — have you received any other monetary compensation over and above that?
Cpl. Bezruki: I just got my initial adjudication. At this point, I can contact my district counsellor to get in to a program that will further assist me. If I am released from the military, I can still have my rehabilitation compensated. Also, they will pick up the cost of any medical assistance for me in the future.
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: Last year, I was serving with the 2nd Battalion, Royal 22e Régiment, in Afghanistan. My platoon was carrying out a dismounted operation in the Panjwayi district, on May 20, 2009. We were engaged in combat with the enemy for nearly four hours. I was injured when there were shots from rocket launchers and artillery fire close to our position. I suffered perforated eardrums. I was evacuated then to Kandahar where I spent a few days. Then I went back to the field to complete my deployment.
When I got back to Quebec City, at the end of my deployment, I met with some specialists who diagnosed me with permanent tinnitus and hearing loss. This is not a major injury compared to my colleagues, but I will have to put up with it all my life.
[English]
The Chair: Some of us have a grazing idea about that because some of us have been there.
Cpl. Bezruki, were you in a Nyala when that happened?
Cpl. Bezruki: I was in a Bison, senator.
Senator Wallin: You have all described your physical injuries. Would any of you say that you have post-traumatic stress as well? If so, please describe what that means?
[Translation]
Cpl. Godbout: Personally, when I was operated on in Quebec City, I was almost forced to leave the hospital. Because of the bad experience I had at the Kaya hospital in Kabul, I had a hard time going back into hospital. For my operation, I had to be intubated through the nose to drain my stomach and I could not stand it. The doctor took this almost as a refusal to cooperate and I had to come back home because of that. That is the kind of traumatism I suffer from, the fear of going into hospital.
Senator Pépin: Has anyone suggested a therapist to you to help get over this fear?
Cpl. Godbout: I remember that, for my last operation in Quebec City, my wife was there and family, and that helped me a lot. Also, for the language, it was easier. In Kabul, I was operated on by some Czechs. I did not know their language and no one spoke French. Only one person spoke English and my knowledge of English is very limited. It was not easy.
In Quebec City, it went really well. The personnel were competent. Also I had the help of CF members; they sent me specialists, and psychologists were near me all the time.
Senator Pépin: My question is for the majority among you: What role does your family play in your rehabilitation? Some of you are married, others have their parents, but how does it work with your families? There is a lot of stress and I would like to know the role your family plays.
Cpl. Godbout: Personally, I live mainly in Quebec City, as I said, and my wife supports me a lot. But they cannot understand everything either, like my fear and the fact that I am allergic to hospitals, that I am stressed, and really impatient. Even if I go there for my son, for instance, I have a lot of trouble managing the waiting time if it is a little long.
Senator Pépin: Are there other witnesses who would like to share their experience?
[English]
Cpl. Bezruki: I have two children and a wife at home as well. This experience has been a long process, and there was a lot of information I could not answer on the actual papers sent to me from Veterans Affairs in order to put my claim in action.
They have the understanding of the injuries, but I do not think the children and everyone understands the limitations that these injuries have put on their daily lives, such as extracurricular activities like going to Canada's Wonderland with the children, or to an amusement park or going camping, travelling on long trips. These activities are more difficult for us to do. I cannot always do the three- or four-hour car rides sitting in one spot as I used to be able to do. It has become an experience for them to learn to understand that these are my limitations. Family counselling is provided from military assets.
[Translation]
Senator Pépin: Your families also suffer the consequences. How do they handle it all?
Cpl. Godbout: In my case, my family tries not to talk to me too much about it. I am trying to turn the page. I want to achieve closure now. I am just about to succeed and to make sure everything is all right, that everything is fine.
[English]
Cpl. McTeague: My family has handled it well. My dad worked with Wounded Warriors, which was a fund created to help other wounded soldiers. He is still trying to advocate for wounded soldiers to get any help they need, so they are very supportive.
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: Well, my whole family is in the army; my brother is serving in the 22e Bataillon, as well as my father. They are aware of our commitment. My injury is not a major one; they were a little worried when I called to tell them I had been evacuated but, apart from that, it is all right.
MCpl. Boivert: I had good support from my parents. My mother certainly had trouble managing the stress, especially since she is a nurse.
Senator Pépin: She realizes the impact.
MCpl. Boivert: That is right. Her psychologist diagnosed her with post-traumatic shock when she heard the news that I had been injured. Now she is all right. She was monitored, treated. We are trying to resume a normal life, in spite of the injuries and the stress.
[English]
The Chair: We are trying to find the balance. These young soldiers were all reservists. They all volunteered to go where they were sent to serve us all, and they all suffered the difficulties in which they now find themselves in the service of our country.
We are examining whether the New Veterans Charter is serving them well, along with others who they are here representing. That is the thrust of where we are trying to go with this review.
Senator Manning: You have had discussions amongst yourselves and others about the New Veterans Charter, in particular where there have been injuries. Could you give us an idea of some of the negative and positive comments as well as the criticisms that have been discussed, because this is new to all of us. We have heard from soldiers who were dealt with under the old system, and now we are hearing from those who are dealt with under the New Veterans Charter. Our study is to see whether any concerns need to be addressed under the New Veterans Charter that are not living up to expectations. Can you tell us about some of the concerns that you may have experienced and some of the positive things in relation to the New Veterans Charter?
The Chair: You will have to ask a specific question.
Senator Manning: Some concern has been expressed regarding a lump-sum payment versus pension payments. Could you elaborate on that?
With regard to having your concerns addressed, I understand that everyone has a personal case manager. At times, especially when dealing with lump-sum payments, a partial injury receives partial payment. I am wondering about the process that you go through in trying to have some of these issues dealt with. I am sure there are levels of frustration that you and your families have experienced. I would like to know about those and about some of the things that are working well. We do not want to throw out the baby with the bathwater in that we should keep what is working and improve what is not working.
Give us your experience after landing back in Canada and processing — I hate to use that word — your file with Veterans Affairs.
The Chair: Corporal McTeague, would you respond, please?
Cpl. McTeague: I did not start my claim until two years after I returned because of where my injuries were. I was not sure how much I would recover. I filed the claim in September 2008. I found the paperwork for the claim a bit frustrating because of the quality-of-life survey. They ask how each injury affects your life. With multiple fractures, I cannot detail how each fracture affects my life. The effect of the fractures has to be described as a whole, so I found that very frustrating. They still made me fill that part out because they said that each rating is a percentage based on your lump-sum payment.
I have not dealt with it a whole lot, other than the claim itself. I know that a lot of guys have been frustrated with the paperwork or if their claims have been ejected. Some of them seem to get really frustrated. I have seen guys at work flip out and throw chairs across the room.
They sent part of my claim to me, but it was not the final decision. They mailed the cheque first and then the letter explaining the decision came a week and a half later. When you get a cheque but do not understand anything, you freak out wondering why it is only that much. In my case, I thought it was a final decision, so I made multiple calls to figure out what was going on. They asked if I had received a letter and I said no. I guess that others received the money before the letter as well. The letter of explanation should go out before the cheque.
Senator Manning: The letter should at least accompany the cheque.
The Chair: Everyone has frustration when filling out a form that does not represent their situation. It drives everyone crazy but not as much as it drives you guys crazy. Did anyone help you to fill out the form? Could you go to anyone for help with the context of the questions?
Cpl. McTeague: When I first went to write the claim, my assisting officer — who has dealt a lot with Veterans Affairs — and I wrote a full report to describe my injuries and we ignored the Veterans Affairs part. I did not fill out the quality-of-life survey. When I went for reassessment, they made me fill out the survey, but they accepted the fully written report.
Senator Manning: What role does your personal case manager play?
Cpl. McTeague: I see her about every two or three months to give her an update of how I am and what I am doing. Other than that, I have not done much with the case manager.
Senator Manning: You would think that the personal case manager would guide the process and that when you have concerns, questions and issues, he or she would be accountable to Veterans Affairs. I find that frustrating. Perhaps someone else would elaborate on that.
Cpl. Bezruki: I had pretty much the same experience. I received the forms and the quality-of-life survey. It asks whether you are able to do your daily recreational activity: yes, no, or yes with assistance. You just tick a box. Some daily activities are manageable, but if I want to run around the park with the kids or the dog, it will not happen, but I can put the garbage out in the garage. The question is too broad and could have more in-depth detail.
I wrote more or less an autobiography and attached it to my file so they got more of an overall picture of my life than a couple of checked boxes could show. I went to see my district medical officer for my follow-up appointment, and she said that she got more from my autobiography than she got from reading the form. She had never met me before but got my autobiography an hour before I went to see her. She said she learned more about me from that than from the checked answers on the form. I had the benefit of having my assisting officer as well.
At Sunnybrook Hospital, a military trauma surgeon, Dr. Homer Tien, assisted me with my Veterans Affairs paperwork as well as with who I have to see, who fills out this form, what the extent of my injury is and whether it will be a life-long injury. That helped me along my path. He acted as my case manager/guide through the whole process.
The Chair: You both referred to your assisting officer helping you. Who is that?
Cpl. Bezruki: Upon injury, a soldier is given an officer from the Canadian Armed Forces to assist in the process of anything from medical care, medical appointments, paperwork, pay, claims, to helping the family get to the Military Family Resource Centre if they have any problems. An assisting officer will deal with all of a soldier's concerns so they do not have to go through the different channels.
The Chair: The assisting officer provided guidance when filling out the forms and going through the process. This person is from the military, not from VAC.
Cpl. Bezruki: Yes.
Senator Manning: I understand that the personal case manager is paid by Veterans Affairs to fulfill a role. Could someone elaborate on that? I do not know who the individuals are so it does not matter. Through your experience with your personal case manager in dealing with your issues, do you think that a gap needs to be addressed? I have a sense that there is a gap.
Senator Wallin: As a supplementary question to that, do you ever meet the case manager in person or is contact made by phone?
Cpl. McTeague: My case manager works in the building where I work, so when I book an appointment, she is right there. In my experience, when I go there, she does not seem to know exactly what is going on. Since I have been injured, I have been put on contract that they extend six months at a time. She continually told me that I would be put on disability compensation, which did not make sense because I was back to work five days a week, full time. What the military said and what she was saying were two different things. There seems to be a disconnect.
[Translation]
Cpl. Godbout: Militarily, I have received good support from my unit. I was given a lot of help because I was repatriated in 2007 and I was one of the first to be entitled to JPSU.
At one point, I was a victim of the system's shortcomings. The biggest issue for me was the filing delays. As reservists, we have to consult a doctor weekly or monthly for a diagnosis. In some cases, our injuries are internal. I underwent a huge number of medical examinations in civilian facilities and the paperwork was enormous. At one point, the orderly room was not getting any papers anymore and I was not getting my pay, even though my payments went on piling up at home. I have returned to work, but I am still not getting any pay. So this is a problem I have to struggle to solve.
In addition to struggling to get better, we have to fight to receive compensation, as veterans, for our injuries. We constantly have to appeal decisions, because they refuse to compensate us straight off, and we have to start all over again with all the papers we get.
[English]
The Chair: We must remember that since these soldiers and others in the same situation are all being dealt with as though they were members of the permanent force and are still in the permanent force, they have an assisting officer from the CF to help guide them. Therefore, in their particular circumstances, there may be less of an onus on case managers in VAC to do so. I do not know. We might find that changes when they leave the confines of the CF.
Senator Dickson: When you and I travelled together a couple of weeks ago, I understood that the Royal Canadian Legion was making representations to the minister responsible.
Gentlemen, do any of you have an idea as to the representations on the charter that the Royal Canadian Legion was making to Jean-Pierre Blackburn, the Minister of Veterans Affairs? You are affiliated with the Royal Canadian Legion. Are you members of same?
The Chair: I do not think they can be until they leave. I think that is right.
I take that back. I know there are serving members of a legion that I attend at times, so I guess you could be.
Senator Dickson: We will skip over that for a moment.
Any one or all of you can answer this question: How can the service be improved? Is it a question of the competency of the people who are serving you? Is it a question that there are not enough people? Are they not trained well in the new system?
With respect to the latter question, I take it that you are not happy with the idea of a lump-sum payment versus a disability pension. That is the bottom line.
Could you comment on what you feel the inadequacies are in the service? Is it the training of the people that you have to deal with? I am trying to get a handle on how it can be improved, or can it be improved?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: I think so. Let us go back to monthly payments instead of lump sums. I am 29. The amount I received is being spent very quickly. At my age, I almost do not have the choice to invest this money for later. If I received a monthly payment, I would be less worried about the future. From this point of view, I think that a change in the charter in favour of monthly payments would be preferable.
Cpl. Lareau: Senator Wallin's question is a good one. I think she was wondering about the monthly payment applicable to members of the forces.
You will recall that, under the old charter, some members of the Armed Forces applied for and received monthly payments. We all know some of the soldiers who come back from Afghanistan with serious injuries. They apply for and receive lump sums, whereas their colleagues receive monthly payments under the old charter. These soldiers from Afghanistan do not understand why the system has not been adjusted. They do not understand why some of their colleagues, who have less serious injuries, receive monthly amounts for life while they are working for the Armed Forces, whereas they receive a lump sum.
Senator Pépin: It seems that the majority of soldiers would prefer to have monthly payments rather than a lump sum.
Cpl. Lareau: Wounded soldiers who have families will prefer the security offered by a monthly amount over a big cheque from the government that can be spent in a hurry.
We have all heard some fairly unpleasant stories where soldiers had a close call, were injured, had some nasty experiences, got a lump sum and spent it. For some, things have ended badly, sometimes in suicide.
Senator Pépin: I come back to the topic of families. Are there any services to help the families of soldiers who come back injured?
Cpl. Godbout: There are lots of support services for families, especially with the JPSU, to which we all belong. They meet with families in small private rooms and offer help to those who need it. They have psychologists and personnel for this, we are given business cards. Soldiers' families are very well supported.
Of course, sometimes the reserve units do not receive the same services as the regular units. Sometimes the units have trouble issuing payments, as happened in my case. Still, the JPSU is there to let the unit know about these problems. I wish to emphasize their good work in these cases and I am pleased that this group exists for both reservists and members of regular units.
Senator Pépin: There is no difference between the regular units and the reservists?
Cpl. Godbout: No difference.
Senator Pépin: This is an important point.
Cpl. Godbout: We present ourselves and we are treated according to our situation. They know us. For example, even if our file is closed, they answer our questions. They are there to listen to us and give us all the information we need.
Senator Pépin: Are the family resource centres accessible near where you live?
Cpl. Godbout: Yes.
[English]
The Chair: I will ask a bit of a rude question, I guess, but it is meant to get the fat into the fire.
I think I am right when I have gathered from what you have said that you are fairly happy with the service that you have been provided by your assisting officer in respect of dealing with things that have to be dealt with.
We have all experienced this in one way or another, but not in the same way you have. When you go to meet with whomever you meet with at Veterans Affairs, do you have the impression that you are dealing with someone who is concerned mostly with your interests, or with the interests of the bureaucracy, the government, the department or whatever? Do you feel you have an advocate when you are dealing with Veterans Affairs? It is kind of an incendiary question and a bit unfair, but I gathered — and I think some of us did — that sometimes there is an almost adversarial feeling when you talk with those people. Can you correct me if I am wrong?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: My case manager did an excellent job for me; and she has not finished yet, because my case is still in progress. She has always advised me to the best of her knowledge. If I have to appeal a particular decision, she advises me. She is nice and I am really satisfied with her work. She telephones me regularly, about every six to eight weeks, to see how I am doing. She is the best.
[English]
The Chair: Does anyone have a different opinion on that? This is at the core of the question.
Cpl. McTeague: I have never actually met my VAC representative. I have only spoken to him on the phone once in a while, and it is only when I call. When my pension officer did the claim, she did not believe that she did me justice in the claim. She told me that up front. Obviously, I know there will be things missing and issues there.
I never hear from VAC at all. They do not stay connected with me or keep me informed of what is going on. I have to constantly call and get updates on what is going on.
The Chair: Is that partly because you are not a veteran yet, in the sense of having left the CF?
Cpl. McTeague: I do not know if that is the case, but because I put a claim in, I think they should at least be informing me on the status of the claim and keeping me up to date.
The Chair: Do any of you other gentlemen want to comment on that question?
Cpl. Bezruki: I met with my assigned case manager from Veterans Affairs about two weeks after I was released from Sunnybrook Hospital, and that was pretty much the last time I saw her. I have tried to make contact with her. I reach her about once every two months. I try to call frequently to find out what stage of the process I am at, and I get the response that she will call me back, that a note will be left for her, or that her mailbox is full. I have a tried a number of approaches.
I have been in contact with the receptionist for the district medical officer, who can contact the medical officer in order to contact me sooner. Until I have my adjudication, I am pretty much still just a reserve soldier on a Class C contract within the CF. I do not have any of the benefits from Veterans Affairs yet.
The Chair: The word "just" never belongs before "a reserve soldier on a C contract," corporal.
Geographically speaking, is your case manager close to where you live?
Cpl. Bezruki: She is out of the Scarborough office and I am in Courtice, Ontario, just outside of Oshawa. Yes, it is fairly close.
The Chair: What I was getting at is that it is not someone in Charlottetown that you cannot easily drive to see; it is a place to which you can drive and have access, if there were such access.
Are any other comments in respect of that question, gentlemen? We have heard two different views, and I suppose that is normal. Nothing is ever neatly the same across the board.
Do senators have further questions?
Senator Wallin: A couple of us have tried to elicit this answer. I know it is difficult for you because you really are in the middle of the process. However, as Senator Banks said at the beginning, here you are, volunteers to defend your country, and all of us who live here. Overall, do you feel fairly treated, fairly done by? Many of you want to keep your connection with the CF, so that is kind of your family. Do you think this is working?
The Chair: Let me ask Corporal Lareau to answer first. We will go across the board. As General Cox has pointed out, Corporal Lareau was injured as a reservist and then joined the CF.
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: My injury is not major, I was able to be transferred in the Regular Forces and so I can continue my work. Personally, I do not have any problems in this regard, but I cannot speak for the others.
[English]
The Chair: But do you feel you are being treated fairly?
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: I applied recently but I have not had any news about my application. So I cannot answer this question right now. For the time being, the army is treating me well. Of course I had to contact the authorities in Ottawa because I was not familiar with the procedure. I had to find out from the office at Valcartier how to complete the forms properly so as not to delay the process. I called back for information and for now I am awaiting the outcome.
[English]
Senator Wallin: Because we have heard from each of you, I know the different levels of frustration about the forms and the proximity of your case workers, et cetera. Given that you guys are all special people who volunteer to join the military to defend us, you have a different mindset than many people anyway.
To you, Corporal Bezruki, as Senator Banks said, you should say never say "just." You are a soldier and you have served your country. That said, given that you will be able to function at something and carry on in the system, what is your view from 30,000 feet on this?
Cpl. Bezruki: Looking back, I have no regrets for anything that I did. I had an opportunity to go overseas with a great battalion. I got injured, and that was the risk I was willing to take at the time. I have been treated well by all the medical staff in the system. The system is slow, and I have found that you have to be patient. That is hard on the soldiers, as well as their families. To get through the process, there were a lot of other people who helped us along the way.
Now, since I am on permanent category, if I am released from the CF, they do have a rehabilitation program and a re-education program, if I want to go back to school. There are a couple of insurance companies that will compensate you to get a second career, and there is job assistance placement within the CF from their occupational officer.
Senator Wallin: Do you have any idea what you will do?
Cpl. Bezruki: At this point, I am thinking about going back to school and changing my career path. I would like to stay within the CF but maybe a civilian area of the CF.
The Chair: Master Corporal Boivert on Senator Wallin's question: Is it fair?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: I am satisfied with the medical services, the support we get in the forces; they are number one. The procedure for veterans is long, but as with any procedure you have to allow the time it takes. In general, I am satisfied with the services offered by the Department of Veterans Affairs. As I said at the beginning, I have trouble with the issue of lump sum payments, but we will see in the future.
Cpl. Godbout: I am satisfied in military terms. As I said earlier, for veterans, we have to fight again. I had to appeal. I may still have to appeal because my stomach still hurts. I had a second operation. I have not appealed yet. I should go back. Then I ask myself whether it is worth going back right away. With another lump sum, I am still young, under 30, I am going back to school. I registered because I want to take a break from the forces. So I am going back to civilian school and I am going to remain a reservist because in the end I like it. I find the process really very long and that is what has not helped me. It is reflected as much for my family as for me; when we have been waiting a year for answers, when we have been struggling some more for inappropriate benefits, I look at the percentages, it could be anything. I was looking at the percentages they gave me, yes, they are fine, but it is my stomach I see every day, it is not an amount of money. And that is reflected in my family because, when we are not happy, we are angry, it is reflected with our spouse and our child, we are more aggressive, our fuse is shorter. We have to manage that on top of healing and fighting for the veterans.
There is always something happening. When things are settled, it is almost all settled for me, but I have to return to combat but I do not know how I am going to react. It is a bit better now, at least, we always have the support of the army, whether we have left the forces or not. Personally, for my unit, I repeat, it is excellent, I do not have anything to say about it.
You have to have the will to go on fighting. It really is like returning to combat, that is what is too bad for the next soldiers and those who are leaving for Afghanistan now, they see what we are going through and what our families are going through, and they do not like it. If anything happens to me, if I see someone who has been fighting for two years and it is still not settled, he goes on thinking about it, he goes to bed at night and thinks: is this ever going to be settled? He is always awaiting appeals. He always has to start over again. They do not like it, the others who return to combat. Personally, it is the process. It is big, it is a big machine and you have to go with the flow. That is the thing.
[English]
Cpl. McTeague: I believe that the Veterans Affairs process is not fair for a lot of guys. With all of the negativity that has gone on about it, they do not have peace of mind. They are worried that if they get hurt they will have to go through a massive, lengthy process. There is no peace of mind there for the members.
On the military side, people are fighting to stay in for as long as they can because they do not want to deal with Veterans Affairs.
The Chair: Speaking you are in, you said that you are now contemplating leaving the Canadian Forces. You are looking at that prospect as a possibility.
Cpl. McTeague: That is a decision the military will have to make. That is left up to the CDS.
The Chair: How long have you been in?
Cpl. McTeague: I have been in five years now.
The Chair: How much of a pension do you get for five years?
Cpl. McTeague: Offhand, I do not know.
The Chair: Serving members get a pension. How many years do you have to have vested? The short question is, you would not get a pension unless you have been in for a certain number of years. Is it 10 years?
Senator Wallin: That is what I understand.
The Chair: Let us get down to the actuarial question, then, because it is an actuarial question. All of you are in the armed services protecting us. As you have all said, before the New Veterans Charter a monthly consideration was paid to you for life for what you did. Now there is a lump sum. There are advantages to lump sums, I am assuming. It allows you to get established, maybe pay off part of a mortgage or build a ramp if you need one, or whatever. However, in the view of some, those advantages are offset by the fact that, for one reason or another, that money might be gone fairly soon instead of having been invested for the long term.
Actuarially speaking, because you are all young men — and not all, but almost all, of the soldiers who are injured in our service are young soldiers — do you think, if you did the arithmetic, that it would cost more in the long run to provide you an ongoing lifetime monthly pension than it would to provide you with a lump-sum percentage of the maximum? If that is the case, what is your view of that question?
I think you have all said that you would rather have a monthly pension, but there is an argument that that is asking the system to protect young, injured soldiers against foolishness. It says to young soldiers, "You cannot go out and buy a new Maserati convertible because that would be an unwise use of the lump-sum payment." Talk about that a little bit.
I will begin with you, Master Corporal Boivert, because you are the senior person here.
Master Corporal Boivert: Could you repeat the question, please?
The Chair: Why do you think it has been decided to compensate you with a lump-sum payment rather than a monthly income for life?
[Translation]
MCpl. Boivert: I think that the lump sum cost the Department of Veterans Affairs less because a monthly amount for life may cost a lot of money. We five, we are young. For example, if we receive $1,000 a month for life in compensation, that is a great deal of money. That is why I think that the lump sum was chosen instead of the monthly payment.
Cpl. Lareau: I think, Mr. Chair, that there were abuses in the past under the old charter. The charter was amended, I think, just before our engagement in southern Afghanistan. Basically, in 2006, when the first units were engaged, there were dozens of wounded and since then the number has increased. The charter was amended just before that. The charter was suited to a period of peace, of calmer deployments than Afghanistan. And then I think the government did a rather good job; honestly there was fraud involved in some claims. Then Veterans Affairs did not expect to have so many wounded today in Afghanistan. So was it to save money? I do not think so. I think that the Department of Veterans Affairs is acting for the welfare of the wounded soldiers. But it is definitely poorly suited today to those injured in Afghanistan and to future wars. If we are engaged elsewhere, there will be more wounded. People will not be well served by the current charter.
[English]
The Chair: We are coming to the end of our allotted time. Senator Dickson has a question.
Senator Dickson: When you get the lump-sum payment, do you sign a final release? In other words, is there no appeal? If your injury worsens, can you come back to the board?
Cpl. McTeague: I believe you can come back, but if you max out the 250, you cannot claim any more. You cannot claim any more once you hit the lump-sum maximum.
The Chair: The maximum is the maximum, whatever the maximum is, and when you hit it, that is it.
Colleagues, we have looked at direct A-B comparisons. Our maximum is less than that of some other countries, but we have benefits that do not exist in all other countries.
Gentlemen, is there anything further that any of you would like to say before we adjourn?
[Translation]
Cpl. Lareau: I have volunteered for another tour of duty and I will be redeployed to Afghanistan in October. I think it is useful for me to be here today to testify that, within my battalion, before being deployed, men ask themselves whether the Department of Veterans Affairs will be there for them if they come home wounded. They often hear bad comments and also sometimes good ones from their colleagues who return injured. I think that trust in the Department of Veterans Affairs is lacking. Senator Pépin is concerned about soldiers' wives. People learn from the newspapers that there is a lack of services for the military. Trust in the department has to be there before we leave again.
It is good that you are asking questions and that you are trying to improve the situation of these veterans and I thank you for it.
[English]
The Chair: Thank you. That is precisely the question that we are in the process of addressing.
I want to thank you all for taking the time to be here and give your testimony. Thank you also for your service to our country.
(The committee adjourned.)